Author Topic: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha  (Read 6760 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« on: November 22, 2010, 03:11:43 pm »
A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan

as posted by Tasha at http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

Many of you know that I have recently been struggling for the first time in my life with health problems. When I discovered that my problems were a direct result of my vegan diet I was devastated.  2 months ago, after learning the hard way that not everyone is capable of maintaining their health as a vegan, I made one of the most difficult decisions of my life and gave up veganism and returned to eating an omnivorous diet. My health immediately returned. This experience has been humbling, eye-opening, and profoundly transformative. To hear the whole story just keep reading…
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 02:29:42 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 04:40:56 pm »
Moved to hot topics forum.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 07:45:06 pm »
Why is this a hot topic?
Isn't this a common them for many of us?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 08:05:05 pm »
Why is this a hot topic?
Isn't this a common them for many of us?
  The article specifically talks about the supposed joys of cooking meats, at one point. She merely converted from cooked vegan to cooked-SAD. Now, if this had been a story about the conversion of a raw vegan to  a RVAF diet, it would have been OK in the Info section. But, anything promoting cooking is only fit for the hot topics forum. I am always surprised as to how some people view cooked-palaeo as somehow less worse than raw, non-palaeo or vice-versa. Both are equally bad.
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Offline yuli

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 08:50:00 pm »
Interesting story GS thanks for posting.

... I am always surprised as to how some people view cooked-palaeo as somehow less worse than raw, non-palaeo or vice-versa. Both are equally bad.

That's because it (cooked-paleo) IS less worse then raw vegan, and it IS less worse then SAD obviously.
I'd rather go cooked-paleo then raw vegan or SAD any day! At least I'll have energy, good digestion and won't suffer deficiencies.

Not saying it should not be in Hot Topics, just saying you can't say cooked-paleo is just as bad as raw vegan and SAD...
I tried them and cooked paleo is way above those! Its just not as good as raw paleo but if it helped that girl good for her. It will also help a lot more people I know to at least go cooked paleo.

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 09:47:07 pm »
Well, my experience was quite different. Cooked-palaeo nearly killed me, especially the more cooked animal food I added into the diet. Raw vegan/fruitarian diets were blissful by contrast. Granted, such raw plant-food diets cause nutritional deficiencies usually in the long-term, but at least they did not cause me severe problems in the short-term like cooked-palaeo did.

A lot of people who go raw vegan similiarly notice plenty of initial health-benefits at the start just due to going raw and avoiding eating cooked animal foods(which contain the highest amounts of heat-created toxins).


Cooked-palaeo may be fine for those with minor health-problems, but that's about it.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline yuli

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 11:00:04 pm »
I am talking about the majority of population here,
take a bunch of average people who eat cooked food and are not visibly dying from it...
Then for 5 years put a group on average SAD diet, put another group raw vegan and put another group cooked-paleo (which by the way includes rare meats, sashimi and plenty or raw fruit and raw salads so it not like 100% cooked ever anyway)...
After the five years which group in the MAJORITY of population will improve more? Considering they all started as either SAD eaters or vegans?
I think the cook-paleo people will be the best out of the group, its a no-brainer.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 11:39:04 pm »
Cooked-palaeo does NOT consist of sashimi, as cooked-palaeos routinely praise cooking and warn against the so-called "dangers" of eating raw meats,  and many cooked-palaeos argue  vehemently against fruits/veg  , even raw ones, such as the Zero-carb crowd and the low-carb crowd. And plenty cooked-palaeo gurus do not recommend rare meats but say cooking is fine as long as you don't burn the stuff till it's charcoal.

As for your above example, it is completely biased and unscientific. First of all, it should involve a totally  random number of people in a population, not just "those who seem visibly OK on cooked diets"(!). I can already see what would happen on such an experiment, anyway, given multiple reports online from many forums focusing on different diets:- the 100 percent raw vegans would quickly get far more initial health-benefits than the others, simply because they were not eating cooked-foods and therefore not taking in any heat-created toxins from cooked foods, some would then be slowly deteriorating in health, between a few months to a few years, with others staying healthy beyond the 5-year limit, though likely not for the rest of their lives. The SAD-eaters going cooked-palaeo would experience minor improvements re slight decreases in the rate/severity of auto-immune disorders and the like, but would otherwise be no better off than other SAD-eaters, as they would be continuing to take in heat-created toxins from cooked foods - and with a minority like me, suffering greatly in health. Of course, if any people in those 2 groups cheated, such as cooked-palaeos incorporating far more raw plant-foods in their diet or raw vegans incorporating a little cooked animal foods in their diet, those would be even better off than the original 2 groups.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline kanotim

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 11:56:14 pm »
Cooked-palaeo does NOT consist of sashimi, as cooked-palaeos routinely praise cooking and warn against the so-called "dangers" of eating raw meats,  and many cooked-palaeos argue  vehemently against fruits/veg  , even raw ones, such as the Zero-carb crowd and the low-carb crowd. And plenty cooked-palaeo gurus do not recommend rare meats but say cooking is fine as long as you don't burn the stuff till it's charcoal.

As for your above example, it is completely biased and unscientific. First of all, it should involve a totally  random number of people in a population, not just "those who seem visibly OK on cooked diets"(!). I can already see what would happen on such an experiment, anyway, given multiple reports online from many forums focusing on different diets:- the 100 percent raw vegans would quickly get far more initial health-benefits than the others, simply because they were not eating cooked-foods and therefore not taking in any heat-created toxins from cooked foods, some would then be slowly deteriorating in health, between a few months to a few years, with others staying healthy beyond the 5-year limit, though likely not for the rest of their lives. The SAD-eaters going cooked-palaeo would experience minor improvements re slight decreases in the rate/severity of auto-immune disorders and the like, but would otherwise be no better off than other SAD-eaters, as they would be continuing to take in heat-created toxins from cooked foods - and with a minority like me, suffering greatly in health. Of course, if any people in those 2 groups cheated, such as cooked-palaeos incorporating far more raw plant-foods in their diet or raw vegans incorporating a little cooked animal foods in their diet, those would be even better off than the original 2 groups.
Cooked paleo eaters no better off than SAD? Maybe for you and a few others but paleo, even cooked provides more nutrients than SAD eaters, who a get a lot of their calories from foods with little nutrition such as grains and refined sugar. Switching to paleo results in higher intake of animal/fruit/veg (or just animal products for carnivores), both of which are far more nutritious than grains. I agree that heat created toxins are harmful but are they really as harmful as nutritional deficiency? Most people don't suffer on cooked diet; vitamin and mineral deficiency is more common and of greater concern.

Offline yuli

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 12:05:25 am »
Most people would do better on cooked paleo then other extreme diets or SAD, even if they are taking in toxins from cooked meat. Most people would be fairly healthy on that diet + exercise. Many problems people have are from eating grains, cereals, pasteurized dairy, refined sugars...when people take those out they consume more animal foods and vegetables/fruit. I don't know why you think people on regular paleo diet are against rare meats or raw salad and fruits, I learned about paleo diet through the Internet and excluding the FANATIC sites you must be referring to I learned that it includes meats prepared in ALL different ways, it can include sashimi which most people love to eat anyways, and it encourages eating fresh berries as snack and eating greens fresh not just cooked! Thats how I learned it from the Internet, I didn't study about some cooking-obsessed paleo or zero carb paleo...I just studied about normal paleolithic diet in the modern days. And there are many sites which encourage this diet which is healthier then raw vegan OR SAD...I am not gonna argue, I guess you live in one world and I live in the other, this was my experience and yours is a different one obviously.
Not eating cereals, refined sugars and pasteurized dairy to be healthier IS NOT "biased and unscientific", you are the one being biased. I am not telling anyone they should do cooked paleo, I am saying it is a better diet then most, there is much evidence that it is so.

Offline KD

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 12:24:08 am »
there are people at my gym on cooked paleo that have killer health. If I wanted to be really critical I could, but i'd say for sure they are healthier in all aspects of life than many raw people I have met - particularly vegetarians of course. Usually this does have alot to do with the health someone is coming from. I wouldn't be doing raw if i didn't think it had the underlying advantage in reversing illness (I don't think cooked paleo will cut it for some folks) but I can probably think of a number of partially-cooked versions of paleo are healthier than some raw versions for both healing and maintenance. I have to say though the complete aversion of some folks on Sisson's site or lean paleo diet to eating raw meats as some kind of novelty is kind of ridiculous and pretentious!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2010, 12:31:40 am »
Yuli, you weren't paying attention. Re bias, I was, instead, referring to your incredibly biased suggestion of only including in your experiment those on cooked diets  who looked visibly OK as experimental subjects. Logically and scientifically-speaking, it should be a random sample.


As for palaeo definitions, sashimi is definitely "rawpalaeo". Granted, there are a few individual cooked-palaeodieters who eat sushi/sashimi(just as there are a few raw vegans who eat a little raw dairy or a few  zero-carbers who occasionally eat raw plant foods) but raw animal food is frowned upon by countless cooked-palaeodiet guidelines in general, with instructions re not eating meats raw etc. Ask anyone on the web, and they will tell you 99 percent of the time that cooked-palaeo equals cooked animal foods plus some raw or cooked plant foods, the other 1 percent being too ignorant or muddled.


As for the original points, yes, there are some nasty auto-immune diseases caused by non-palaeo foods such as grains and dairy. Things like MS, rheumatoid arthritis and a few others. However, cooked-palaeodiets, according to some studies, only help alleviate/slow down  such conditions to some extent, they certainly do not cure them.By contrast, adding a whole load of heat-created toxins throughout your life, is definitely going to cause multiple health-problems which are very common, especially in old age:-

"Potential harmful effects of cooked foods

Raw food dieters state that cooking food produces harmful chemical toxins.

Several studies published since 1990 indicate that cooking muscle meat creates heterocyclic amines (HCAs), which are thought to increase cancer risk in humans. Researchers at the National Cancer Institute found that human subjects who ate beef rare or medium-rare had less than one third the risk of stomach cancer than those who ate beef medium-well or well-done.[67] While eating muscle meat raw may be the only way to avoid HCAs fully, the National Cancer Institute states that cooking meat below 212 °F (100 °C) creates "negligible amounts" of HCAs. Also, microwaving meat before cooking may reduce HCAs by 90%.[68]

Microwaving has been shown to significantly reduce the anti-infective factors in human milk.[69][70] Microwaving has also been shown to cause the greatest decrease in all studied antioxidants in broccoli, compared to other cooking methods.[71] Microwaving has been shown to reduce vitamin B12 levels in beef, pork and milk by 30-40%.[72]

Nitrosamines, formed by cooking and preserving in salt and smoking, have been noted as being carcinogenic, being linked to colon cancer and stomach-cancer.[73][74] Cooking creates certain heat-created toxins, advanced glycation end products, otherwise known as AGEs. This reaction occurs both within the body and external to the body. These compounds are absorbed by the body during digestion with about 30% efficiency.[citation needed] Many cells in the body (for example endothelial cells, smooth muscle or cells of the immune system) from tissue such as lung, liver, kidney or peripheral blood bear the receptor for advanced glycation end products (RAGE) that, when binding AGEs, contributes to age and diabetes-related chronic inflammatory diseases,[75][76] such as atherosclerosis, renal failure,[77][78][79] arthritis,[80] myocardial infarction,[81] macular degeneration,[82] cardiovascular disease,[83] nephropathy,[84] retinopathy,[85] or neuropathy.[86] Excretion of dietary AGEs is reduced in diabetics and lowering AGE intake may greatly reduce the impact of AGEs in diabetic patients and possibly improve prognosis.[37]

One study, comparing the effects of consuming either pasteurized, or homogenized/pasteurized, or unpasteurized milk, showed that pasteurized and homogenized/pasteurized milk might have an increased ability to evoke allergic reactions in patients allergic to milk.[87]

Also, toxic compounds called PAHs,[88] or Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, are formed by cooking, in addition to being a component of cigarette-smoke and car-exhaust fumes[89][90].They are known to be carcinogenic.[91][92]

German research in 2003 showed significant benefits in reducing breast cancer risk when large amounts of raw vegetable matter are included in the diet. The authors attribute some of this effect to heat-labile phytonutrients.[93]

Acrylamide, a toxin found in roasted/baked/fried/grilled starchy foods, but not in boiled or raw foods, has been linked to endometrial and ovarian, but not breast cancers.[94] Ingested acrylamide is metabolised to a chemically reactive epoxide, glycidamide.[95] The HEATOX(Heat Generated Food Toxins) project has published a report on acrylamide.[96]

Frying chickpeas, oven-heating winged beans, or roasting cereals at 200–280 °C (392–536 °F) reduces protein digestibility.[97]

Another study has shown that meat heated for 10 minutes at 130 °C (266 °F), showed a 1.5% decrease in protein digestibility.[98] Similiar heating of hake meat in the presence of potato starch, soy oil, and salt caused a 6% decrease in amino acid content.[99][100]

There are various scientific reports, such as one by the Nutrition Society,[101] which describe in detail the loss of vitamins and minerals caused by cooking.[30][31][32]

It has also been suggested that cooking contributes greatly to global warming.[102]
[edit] ":-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism

it has already been established that cigarette-smoke and car-exhaust fumes are bad for you, but judging from the above, there are heat-created toxins formed by cooking which are present in the former 2 pollutants.





« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 02:44:36 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2010, 12:37:22 am »
I suspect that the main reason for why raw vegan diets are more frowned upon, in general, than the Weston-Price Diet or the cooked-palaeodiet, is that the raw vegan diet is seen as a more trendy, modern diet whereas the other 2 are seen to be ancient traditional diets of people who lived supposedly idyllic, "natural"  l) lives in accordance with the absurd Noble-Savage theory.

I should add that there are some online raw vegans who look good.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline kanotim

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2010, 12:55:27 am »
I should add that there are some online raw vegans who look good.

Physical appearance alone is not an accurate indicator of health. Good looking raw vegans are not necessarily equialvent to healthy raw vegans.  Blood work, other tests, ability to do physical work, etc. needs to be taken into account as well.

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2010, 01:16:20 am »
Physical appearance alone is not an accurate indicator of health. Good looking raw vegans are not necessarily equialvent to healthy raw vegans.  Blood work, other tests, ability to do physical work, etc. needs to be taken into account as well.
I meant look good, of course, in the sense of looking healthy, not beautiful. Come to think of it, almost everybody has superficial views of what health constitutes. As for blood-work etc., it's still too vague a science to confirm how healthy someone really is. 
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline yuli

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2010, 01:28:16 am »
Well if cooked paleo dieters are all starting to frown upon raw meats that is sad of course.
To me a optimum cooked paleo will include BOTH raw, rare + cooked meats.
By the way meats cooked over a fire should be the encouraged by cooked paleos as that is how they were cooked early on, the orange fire is less hot and the middle of the meat stays nice and raw. So cooked paleos should only cook their meat on open fire when they can as its closer to paleo  :)
Many healthier then average-SAD people no matter what diet do include LOTS of raw fruits and veggies whether they are paleo or not, that makes a big difference IMO.
Anyways I wasn't in any way implying that cooked meat should be encouraged over raw meat, but it should be encouraged over no meat or pastries for example. Even if it may increase your chance of cancers.

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2010, 02:42:41 am »
Many healthier then average-SAD people no matter what diet do include LOTS of raw fruits and veggies whether they are paleo or not, that makes a big difference IMO.
Anyways I wasn't in any way implying that cooked meat should be encouraged over raw meat, but it should be encouraged over no meat or pastries for example. Even if it may increase your chance of cancers.

    I was born with clear light eyes, beautifully big and bright, very healthy.  I was breastfed exclusively first six months, then weaned slowly naturally until two and a half.  I walked, talked and toilet trained early without Mom, Dad or siblings needing to show me a thing (taught myself to read too before school-age).  My Mom ate strict cooked whole pieces of meat (mostly rib-eye type stuff) and raw salads (never a bottle dressing) all through pregnancy and added fruit, baked fruit, boiled vegetables, a little fresh baked bread (very little wheat), boiled chicken bone intact and some real cream after that (no sodas nor chips).  We didn't eat SAD.  I grew up with raw veges (big not blended) and raw fruits (big not processed) every day as snacks. I thought it was SAD, but learned what SAD really is through these forums.  I think my health problems started in pre-grade-school school where they serve a cookie and a cup of milk every day of the school week.  I'm sure many other things contributed to non-robust-health including maybe a few vaccines in me.  Cooked meat never went down well.  I don't think that was necessarily a sign of ill health.  I think it's just that my immune system was good, and made no mistake that cooked meat (meaning broiled/grilled etc) may be contributory to cancer and other very serious health concerns.  I think most people's immune systems are turned off by vaccinations and formulas and such, so they think they're healthy, just because they don't get noticed reactions.  So I turned whole food vegan and my health noticeably improved.  I turned living food lifestyler and my health made more improvement.  Eventually I was in the relationship I'm in now, and made compromise to junk food vegan.  It made me really sick (but again maybe not all caused by food).  Back to raw food, but omni this time, and I felt and looked better right away.  Sure I may not be 'normal', as I don't have the exact same life as everyone from my home town.  My skin is clearer and softer than those peers though, even though I get nothing done to it.  My hair has maybe one or two grays, while many of the guys are bald or gray now (of course most of the women dye I don't).  From looking at people around me I think cooking meat may gray hair.  My Mom liked her meat thoroughly cooked, she grayed very early (twenty some odd).  My Dad liked meat rare as possible and his hair didn't really start graying till seventies.  I see raw took away most of the few grays I had, and in friends who switched from SAD to raw omni much of their gray went away too.  For my point of view, it's healthier and more natural to be a raw living food lifestyle (beegan mostly vegan) than to practice cooked paleo.  Of course I didn't try cooked zero carb paleo, so it could be that that would be more natural and healthy.  I have no experience with that.
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Offline Alan

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2010, 01:32:14 pm »
GS,  you did an excellent job of violating copyrights by quoting way more, as in WAY MORE, than "fair use" doctrine permits.

As an IT pro, you should have known to obtain permission, or just post a link.

One can only hope that your own family never goes hungry because of piracy such as you've exemplar'd, against YOUR intellectual works.....

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: A Vegan No More - The Story of a Recovering Vegan named Tasha
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 02:29:26 pm »
GS,  you did an excellent job of violating copyrights by quoting way more, as in WAY MORE, than "fair use" doctrine permits.

As an IT pro, you should have known to obtain permission, or just post a link.

One can only hope that your own family never goes hungry because of piracy such as you've exemplar'd, against YOUR intellectual works.....

Thank you for pointing it out.  Let me edit the thread start.
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