Raw Vegan vs Paleo

[David Howe]

The raw vegans argue that humans are best suited to a frugivorous diet. Their evidences (or some) are that humans teeth are not designed for eating meat unlike carnivores, carnivores stomachs secrete acid which is 10 times stronger than that of the humans. the digestion of meat starts in the mouth of the carnivores whereas it starts in the stomach of the humans. It takes many hours to digest in the humans. In addition to the structure of the human body which is not suited / designed to run after a prey.....the intestines and colons of humans are longer than that of the carnivores....So following a Paleo diet goes against nature.

What's the Paleo take on that?  

[laterade]

I digest beef better than just about anything else, even fruit.
Butter with honey is the only thing that works quicker.
After I eat about a pound of beef, my stomach is clear in less than 2 hours and I feel much more satisfied.

[David Howe]

I digest beef better than just about anything else, even fruit.
Butter with honey is the only thing that works quicker.
After I eat about a pound of beef, my stomach is clear in less than 2 hours and I feel much more satisfied.

I do want to believe you, but what's the science behind that? The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge. 

[miles]

The raw vegans argue that humans are best suited to a frugivorous diet. Their evidences (or some) are that humans teeth are not designed for eating meat unlike carnivores, carnivores stomachs secrete acid which is 10 times stronger than that of the humans. the digestion of meat starts in the mouth of the carnivores whereas it starts in the stomach of the humans. It takes many hours to digest in the humans. In addition to the structure of the human body which is not suited / designed to run after a prey.....the intestines and colons of humans are longer than that of the carnivores....So following a Paleo diet goes against nature.

What's the Paleo take on that?  

Humans are the most efficient runners in existence. Nothing can outrun an unarmed human, and when the human catches the animal it's already dying of exhaustion. They can chase endlessly like wolves, only even more so. As opposed to cheetahs who sneak up close and sprint, or crocodiles who lie in wait. Humans are smart and can adopt many other techniques to hunt as well, like cornering, guiding, trapping, sneaking, etc.. Aside from our running supremacy, do you not consider the human brain do be a part of our body? It is as much a part as any other aspect of any other animal which allows it to hunt.

Humans don't need big teeth because they don't hunt with their mouth, only eat with it. The big teeth of lions are for killing, not for eating.

The acid is not 10x weaker afaik, it's much closer than that, and the length of the intestines is not much longer than other carnivores, but a lot shorter than herbivores.

Clearly we are different to dogs, and dogs are different to cats. Even dogs and cats descended from herbivores, as we are..

[ys]

The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge.  

obvious things may not be what they really are.  people thought the earth was flat because ahh it looks flat.

there is really no science behind this argument because both parties do not have enough concrete evidence to offer consensus.  
why don't you try vegan's convincing advice and let us know how well it works for you.

[laterade]

I do want to believe you, but what's the science behind that? The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge.  

The views I express are only observation.
"Science" is great but IMO self experimentation and intuition are by far dominant.
You will almost always find opposing views in science, people will argue both sides and sometimes both will appear totally legit.
I really do not want you to "believe" me. Try it out for yourself and let us know how you feel!
There are a few people on here, like skinny devil, who eat primarily fruits and veggies and are in great shape.
Some only eat animals and that is great for them.
As long as you look at things honestly and don't hypnotize yourself, you will be fine.

[David Howe]

Humans are the most efficient runners in existence. Nothing can outrun an unarmed human, and when the human catches the animal it's already dying of exhaustion. They can chase endlessly like wolves, only even more so.

Apart from turtles and snails, humans cant outrun but other humans. Which animals can we outrun, Miles? Animals are superior to us in both stamina and speed.

[miles]

Apart from turtles and snails, humans cant outrun but other humans. Which animals can we outrun, Miles? Animals are superior to us in both stamina and speed.

We can outrun all herbivores.

[CHK91]

Apart from turtles and snails, humans cant outrun but other humans. Which animals can we outrun, Miles? Animals are superior to us in both stamina and speed.

The idea is not to outrun. Humans are intelligent and found ways to injure prey from distance. THEN, they chase the prey down. The injury makes chasing down much easier.

[miles]

The idea is not to outrun. Humans are intelligent and found ways to injure prey from distance. THEN, they chase the prey down. The injury makes chasing down much easier.

Humans can even kill herbivores by running them down on an open plain, with no weapons. Humans are the most efficient runners in the animal kingdom.

[David Howe]

We can outrun all herbivores.

Which ones? I am pretty sure if i raced a horse or even an elephant i will lose.

[King Salmon]

why don't you try vegan's convincing advice and let us know how well it works for you.

That's right.Many people here came from being raw vegan/vegan long term.It may have felt good at first but in the long term it didn't hold up.Many people developped weak bodies and illnesses.Read the history of some of the members here and you will see.
I was convinced to the max on eating Macrobiotic,then vegan,then fruits.I wish I knew then what I know now.

[CHK91]

Humans can even kill herbivores by running them down on an open plain, with no weapons. Humans are the most efficient runners in the animal kingdom.

Modern humans cannot do this well unfortunately. XD Such is what civilization does. I think it is easy to underestimate our ancestors, since humans today don't seem capable of doing these things.

[David Howe]

Modern humans cannot do this well unfortunately. XD Such is what civilization does. I think it is easy to underestimate our ancestors, since humans today don't seem capable of doing these things.

Our lifespan is greater than that of our ancestors. Our intelligence has also increased.

[David Howe]

That's right.Many people here came from being raw vegan/vegan long term.It may have felt good at first but in the long term it didn't hold up.Many people developped weak bodies and illnesses.Read the history of some of the members here and you will see.
I was convinced to the max on eating Macrobiotic,then vegan,then fruits.I wish I knew then what I know now.

Where can i read the history of those members you are referring to?

[miles]

Which ones? I am pretty sure if i raced a horse or even an elephant i will lose.

Race? You're not racing it, you're hunting it. All you have to do is scare the animal so it runs from you, and you just have to keep running after it until it completely collapses. A horse can run fast, but it's inefficient and tires faster. It also overheats and needs to stop and pant to cool down whereas we can sweat. If you can scare a horse to make it run from you, and you just keep running after it, it will keep speeding away and stopping while you keep going, and after some hours it will just collapse from exhaustion, and then you can even strangle it or bash its head with a rock to finish it off.

Modern humans cannot do this well unfortunately. XD Such is what civilization does. I think it is easy to underestimate our ancestors, since humans today don't seem capable of doing these things.

Which modern humans? What do you mean by modern humans? The species of modern human can do it, I could do it, and some western peoples have done it very recently for a challenge, whilst some modern(species) humans still living as HGs still do it regularly. Of course some unhealthy person can't do it..

[CHK91]

Our lifespan is higher than that of our ancestors. Our intelligence has also increased.

Our lifespan is higher because every day isn't a struggle to survive and because of emergency medical care.

Intelligence is very vague to define. If a modern human was transported to the paleolithic, the hunter-gathers would think that he or she was retarded because of a lack of survival skills and wit.

[laterade]

Where can i read the history of those members you are referring to?

Before and after section.
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/before-and-after-photos/

[CHK91]

Which modern humans? What do you mean by modern humans? The species of modern human can do it, I could do it, and some western peoples have done it very recently for a challenge, whilst some modern(species) humans still living as HGs still do it regularly. Of course some unhealthy person can't do it..

I don't mean the species. I was just saying that "civilized" peoples can't do this well because they haven't "trained" enough through experience.

[David Howe]

Race? You're not racing it, you're hunting it. All you have to do is scare the animal so it runs from you, and you just have to keep running after it until it completely collapses. A horse can run fast, but it's inefficient and tires faster. It also overheats and needs to stop and pant to cool down whereas we can sweat. If you can scare a horse to make it run from you, and you just keep running after it, it will keep speeding away and stopping while you keep going, and after some hours it will just collapse from exhaustion, and then you can even strangle it or bash its head with a rock to finish it off.

Miles, by the time the horse gets tired, it'll be miles away from me, and without a weapon or a tool, a horse will kill me. I can do nothing against it. I need to use a tool or a weapon. And even if i try catching up with the horse which is now allegedly miles away from me, i will grow tired and will become vulnerable to being eaten by other wild animals.

Humans are weak, we're the weakest creatures in terms of physical abilities, its good that we have the intelligence to compensate for that.

[miles]

Miles, by the time the horse gets tired, it'll be miles away from me, and without a weapon or a tool, a horse will kill me. I can do nothing against it. I need to use a tool or a weapon. And even if i try catching up with the horse which is now allegedly miles away from me, i will grow tired and will become vulnerable to being eaten by other wild animals.

Humans are weak, we're the weakest creatures in terms of physical abilities, its good that we have the intelligence to compensate for that.

YOU're weak, YOU're the weakest creature in terms of physical abilities, and I'm not sure you have the intelligence to compensate for that. You're talking about yourself, not humans. Don't insult my species.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo

A follower of movnat(concept of natural movement, barefoot running etc) also hunted a deer in California this way, and killed it with a rock.

This is different, but another example of someone catching a wild animal without weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqko-lxsQsE

Besides, what's wrong with using our brains and making tools anyway? How does that make us any less carnivores, that we have different abilities? A wolf can't sneak or sprint like a cheetah, but it has good endurance. A snake can't chase at all, but it can wait for a long time. A vulture can follow dying animals. A human can think, and use this to come up with many ways of hunting. Whether it's utilising our incredible endurance, using our hands to make tools/traps/weapons, using our communication to guide animals off of cliffs, sneaking up to an animal, tracking an animal etc.

[CHK91]

We must keep in mind that to hunter gathers in the past, a successful hunt could have been a difference between life or death. This is would be very motivating. If failure was death, I definitely give it my all.

[Iguana]

The best debunking of the vegetarian ideology is in the quote here.

[David Howe]

YOU're weak, YOU're the weakest creature in terms of physical abilities, and I'm not sure you have the intelligence to compensate for that. You're talking about yourself, not humans. Don't insult my species.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo

A follower of movnat also hunted a deer in California this way, and killed it with a rock.

This is different, but another example of someone catching a wild animal without weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqko-lxsQsE

No Miles, both of us are weak though interms of intelligence i am superior without a shroud of a doubt.
Nice vid by the way, though the human got lucky because the ground was flat.

8 hours to track down one kudu!! I am pretty sure that our ancestors didnt rely mainly on meat on their diet. If every hunt took 8 hours, we wouldnt even have time to evolve interms of civilization and intelligence. That's why the theory of our ancestors relying mainly and only on meat isnt accurate.

[MoonStalkeR]

And what are your ideas on what would they have to eat besides meat?