Author Topic: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding  (Read 28702 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 10:06:55 am »
Sure, it will slope off after a certain point, sure, but the difference is that people will see that it works better than any of the other aforementioned approaches in improving health and so it will maintain a significant following and my guess is that the overall Paleo community (including raw Paleo) will be substantially larger in the long run than either Atkins or raw veganism. It will likely be a somewhat elite following, since Paleo is generally more expensive than eating beans and tortillas or rice and peas or potatoes and cabbage every day. Some people today work around high market prices for pastured animal foods by hunting or raising animals or eating more animal fat and organs than lean meats, but not everyone can hunt or farm and prices for animal fats and organs will increase as demand increases (and I'm already seeing this in my area), with increases in supply only able to counteract part of the increase.

Too few people get the notion of being both raw and palaeo. Usually, people will have tried every other possible diet before eventually trying the RPD diet. Most people are happy to stick to compromise diets along the way involving a little starch, a little junk food etc.

As for the notion that the supply will become more expensive or restricted, I have good reason to doubt this. I have come across numerous instances where farmers would throw away all their raw grassfed suet as no one else wanted it. Same with the raw organs as no one was interested, in most cases. As for costs, I have seen costs only rise slightly in line with inflation(or less) in my farmers' markets, despite a large increase in rawpalaeodieters buying raw animal foods in my markets. Much of the time, I also find the markets' produce far cheaper than in the supermarket as they don't have to pay retail-costs.

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I didn't write anything to the contrary of that and haven't studied it enough to draw firm conclusions. Nonetheless also, Josh is right that some of the new Paleo dieters have come from the fitness and bodybuilding areas like Crossfit and those others I mentioned, and from what I understand, Randy Roach and others have written about raw eggs, meat and blood, not just raw veganism. Plus, adding some raw animal foods to the diet seems to appeal more to bodybuilders than going on a raw vegan diet. So nothing you've written here contradicts anything I've written in this thread, other than your opinion of where things will go.
The specific examples Roach gave in his essay did not mention many being both raw and palaeo as some consumed huge amounts of raw dairy or were raw vegan etc.. As for raw animal foods, I got the distinct impression that raw dairy and raw eggs were far preferred to raw meats, generally. Certainly raw eggs are viewed more favourably by bodybuilders in modern times than raw meats.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 10:21:01 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 07:33:27 pm »
As for the notion that the supply will become more expensive or restricted, I have good reason to doubt this.
I'm already seeing price increases in pastured animal fats, meats and organs at rates far exceeding general inflation, which could be due to increased costs, but I'm also seeing more animal fats and organs for sale and new suppliers of these foods and for the first time I've also encountered other customers asking for some of them--such as another customer asking for marrow by coincidence at the same time I did. So it seems to be the law of supply and demand at work, with demand increasing faster than supply and prices rising perhaps at least in part as a result.

My parents also mentioned that grain-finished bison meat has risen again in price down in Florida.

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The specific examples Roach gave in his essay did not mention many being both raw and palaeo
Again, I didn't say they did. What I wrote was: "Josh is right that some of the new Paleo dieters have come from the fitness and bodybuilding areas like Crossfit and those others I mentioned, and from what I understand, Randy Roach and others have written about raw eggs, meat and blood, not just raw veganism."

I read Roach talking about raw meat in the article linked here:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/randy-roach-muscle-smoke-and-mirrors/msg43256/#msg43256
Read this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson159.htm of a Randy Roach interview and was like "I have got to get his book". Has anyone read his book Muscle Smoke and Mirrors? Im about to order it. In case any of you dont already know, Randy is a 100% natural raw meat diet bodybuilder and says that back in the day everyone was doing it.
What I was talking about was that Randy said that he, Armand Tanny and Vince Gironda (and Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale and Dr. Ron Schmid) eat/ate raw meat, and I was also referring to what you wrote about other bodybuilders eating raw meat here:
Yes, I've posted re this Randy Roach character before. Raw-meat-eating was widespread in bodybuilding days pruior to steroid-abuse. The reason is simple, that raw meats help build up muscles faster than cooked meats. ....
Have you changed your opinion?

I've also read elsewhere in this forum about Joe Louis (the boxer) drinking blood and Brother reported here that both Armand Tanny and Jack Lalanne drank blood in the past: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/jack-lalanne/msg45566/#msg45566

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Certainly raw eggs are viewed more favourably by bodybuilders in modern times than raw meats.
I wrote nothing about raw meats being preferred to raw eggs, so I don't know how this relates to anything I wrote, if it was meant to.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 08:20:44 pm »
I should have said " raw animal foods" rather than "raw meats" as such, as things like raw fish, raw dairy and raw eggs were far more consumed than raw meats in those days.

As for your price/supply claims,  that might be due to a very unusually high presence of palaeos in your local area. Or to a bizarre american habit of buying only from select big producers of organic/grassfed meats. I mean I was shocked to find only 3 main farms mentioned by most American RPDers:- Slanker's, NorthStar Bison and US Wellness Meats. Whatever the case, I have been impressed at just how dirt-cheap my raw wild game and raw, grassfed meats have stayed, over the last decade, in the UK and Austria.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2011, 08:01:14 am »
Quote
Quote from: TylerDurden on August 14, 2010, 04:21:31 AM http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/randy-roach-muscle-smoke-and-mirrors/msg43266/#msg43266
Yes, I've posted re this Randy Roach character before. Raw-meat-eating was widespread in bodybuilding days pruior to steroid-abuse. The reason is simple, that raw meats help build up muscles faster than cooked meats. ....

I should have said " raw animal foods" rather than "raw meats" as such, as things like raw fish, raw dairy and raw eggs were far more consumed than raw meats in those days.
I think your original point was a good one, that raw meats (and blood, I might add) were preferred to cooked by some body builders, such as Armand Tanny. As recently as last year, Randy Roach and Joshua Trentine promoted raw meats (along with raw milk and raw eggs) over cooked meats on Super Human Radio:

# 420 Raw Food [Meat, Milk and Eggs] As Effective As Anabolic Steroids In Building Muscle
Wednesday, 06 January 2010 21:00 |
Super Human Radio - Guests: Joshua Trentine and Randy Roach
Trentine is a Professional Career-Drug-Free Natural Bodybuilder. Roach helped him move to a raw food diet and the results are 25 pounds of lean mass in five months! Listen and learn.
Host: Carl Lanore
http://superhumanradio.com/super-human-radio-show/420-raw-food-as-effective-as-anabolic-steroids-in-building-muscle.html

# 440 Raw Food Follow-Up
Monday, 08 February 2010 21:00
http://superhumanradio.com/super-human-radio-show/440-raw-food-follow-up.html
MP3 version that lets you skip around: http://superhumanradio.com/rss/2010/SHR_Show_440.mp3

Just because they also consume raw milk doesn't mean that their consumption of raw meat somehow doesn't exist. Randy and Joshua both talk about how they can more easily digest raw meat and get better bodybuilding results from it. So the raw meat tradition among bodybuilders is still alive, albeit much less so than it used to be.

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As for your price/supply claims,  that might be due to a very unusually high presence of palaeos in your local area. Or to a bizarre american habit of buying only from select big producers of organic/grassfed meats. I mean I was shocked to find only 3 main farms mentioned by most American RPDers:- Slanker's, NorthStar Bison and US Wellness Meats.
Actually, quite to the contrary, the Burlington, VT area is nationally famous for being a hotbed of tofu-eating vegetarians, vegans and leftwing activists. It's also a dairy state, but meat eating is not big here like it is in Texas or other states. If anything the tilt is against meat eating. I've even seen vegans in other states write about wanting to come to Burlington for the more vegan/vegetarian-friendly environment. The dairy industry is quickly shrinking here, but there's still enough left that dairy-eating vegetarians would probably feel most comfortable here, out of all the dietary groups.

I'm not currently buying from Slanker's, NorthStar Bison, or US Wellness, so I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything I've written, if it was meant to be. If you have sources that sell grassfed beef for less cost per unit weight than agrarian staples like beans, tortillas, rice and potatoes, then you are very lucky indeed.

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Whatever the case, I have been impressed at just how dirt-cheap my raw wild game and raw, grassfed meats have stayed, over the last decade, in the UK and Austria.
Yes, I have been amazed to read about the wild meats available to you and in the London specialty markets and farmers markets, especially given the restrictions on hunting in the UK that you and other sources have reported.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2011, 08:36:11 am »
The point is that  wild game is much less available for sale in the US, as a result of legal protections which prevent hunters selling their meats, the idea being they should only hunt occasionally for sport, if that. So, even though the UK has far fewer sources of wild game than in the US, due to the UK having c.12 times the population-density, per square km, of the US, the UK still has far more resources.


As for what I said above, it stands. I have always heard of countless RVAFers complaining about how limited supplies were or were becoming, and in all cases, it was simply a question of not searching in the right areas for the right sources. I remember, for example, how, as a RVAF diet newbie, I used to think that raw wild game was far too expensive in the UK, as, at the time, I was under the false impression that one could only buy raw wild game from wild game-specialised butchers. Subsequent tens of hours spent on visiting tens of  farmers' markets at weekends eventually led me to find, even so, large numbers of high-quality sources of cheap raw meats. I even found sources offering, for free, things like raw suet, kilos at a time, simply because they were throwing it all away given no customer demand for such.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2011, 10:14:43 am »
The point is that  wild game is much less available for sale in the US, as a result of legal protections which prevent hunters selling their meats, the idea being they should only hunt occasionally for sport, if that. So, even though the UK has far fewer sources of wild game than in the US, due to the UK having c.12 times the population-density, per square km, of the US, the UK still has far more resources.
So are you saying that it's legal to sell hunted meats in the UK? If so, that's interesting and I'm curious how they address the concern that this might lead to overhunting of some species (which is apparently a concern of the US federal and state governments and environmental organizations)? I suppose that this is where strict hunting laws and enforcement in the UK come into play?

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As for what I said above, it stands. I have always heard of countless RVAFers complaining about how limited supplies were or were becoming, and in all cases, it was simply a question of not searching in the right areas for the right sources.
Again, if you can find grassfed meats for sale from equivalent source types (such as farmer vs. farmer or supermarket vs. supermarket) at lower prices than agrarian staples like beans, corn, rice, and potatoes, then you are lucky indeed. There are strategies of course, like eating more organs and fats and less muscle meats, buying in bulk, asking for unwanted parts for free, etc., but that only goes so far and those strategies can be applied with agrarian foods too (and I have done so in the past when I was eating them).

It also puts food costs in better perspective to think more in terms of cost per nutrient than cost per calorie or per. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of data on cost/nutrient.

Economizing tips can help, but I think the emphasis on minimizing overall cost is the wrong emphasis. I think it pays in the longer run to think more in terms of investing in one's health as much as possible given one's budget. The long term savings in health bills will probably dwarf the extra costs of buying higher quality foods in most cases.

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I remember, for example, how, as a RVAF diet newbie, I used to think that raw wild game was far too expensive in the UK, as, at the time, I was under the false impression that one could only buy raw wild game from wild game-specialised butchers. Subsequent tens of hours spent on visiting tens of  farmers' markets at weekends eventually led me to find, even so, large numbers of high-quality sources of cheap raw meats. I even found sources offering, for free, things like raw suet, kilos at a time, simply because they were throwing it all away given no customer demand for such.
If one only cares about cost, then such things are easier. I have quality and health interests also. What were the sources? Was the raw suet grassfed? I can't stand conventional suet from feedlot cattle--there's simply no comparison--and the only way I would eat it is if I rendered it first, which I know you don't recommend.

As I understand it, based on what you and other sources have reported, you are quite lucky to have multiple farmers' markets within London alone, and the biggest one is apparently one of the best in the Western world (and GS' in the Philippines looks even better). As I've asked before, please try to keep in mind that not everyone has equally great farmers' markets or equally great overall access to high quality foods, nor necessarily at the same prices. I uploaded a photo of the biggest farmers' market in my state, which even you must surely admit is a disgrace.

I do investigate different sources and have a hunting brother-in-law who saves organs from his kills for me and he buys in bulk too, so if one of the ranches or farms has free unwanted parts like organs or fat, he saves it for me. Unfortunately, such windfalls only happen occasionally and most of the time my only decent local sources are the healthfood markets, as my diet is not sufficiently set yet to buy in bulk from a ranch or farmer myself. Luckily one of my local markets started selling suet that is of good quality at a low price of only $0.49/lb. It doesn't say grassfed, but by the appearance and taste I can tell that it is from at least mostly pastured animals, as it is much better quality than the supermarket stuff. They obviously don't realize the value of it, as they currently sell it for a lower price than the supermarket crap. Unfortunately, they only had a small quantity, but if they keep it at that price I will probably ask them to get more for me.

I've noticed that one somewhat misleading thing that proponents of nearly every diet out there do to make their own approach look more cost effective is to compare apples to oranges. In other words, the do things like compare the bulk prices of their favored foods to the supermarket prices of foods of other diets, or talk about free giveaways of their sorts of foods but ignore the fact that there are free giveaways of the foods of other diets too. For example, I know how to get free rice and canned beans too and have done so for a friend in the past, so to compare raw Paleo giveaways to agrarian supermarket prices is not a fair comparison. To be fair, one would need to compare like to like, such as raw Paleo giveaways to agrarian giveaways. In my experience, there are even more of the latter if you just know where to look. Plus, SAD dieters can choose from all food categories, so by definition their diet will be cheaper than raw Paleo because they can choose the cheapest foods from every food category, including raw Paleo foods. There's nothing to stop them from including the suet you mentioned in their own diet (and likely rendering it) if it's cheaper than other sources of fat they might use, like vegetable oil or pasteurized butter, if cost is the only question. But again this misses the more important point of investing in one's health. I think that raw Paleo wins out in the health aspect more than in the cost aspect, though thinking more in terms of price-per-nutrients does help ameliorate the cost issue.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 10:19:56 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2011, 12:01:43 pm »
Raw wild game like wild hares is very plentiful as is wild venison, and since most people eat just SAD and never bother with organ-meats or wild game, having no interest in such, they are plentiful as long as one is prepared to do a little searching on-or -offline.


As for the fact that non-palaeo/processed foods are usually the cheapest foods out there, that is, of course, completely irrelevant. That does not mean that raw wild game or raw, grassfed meats can't be gotten cheaply, it merely means that grains and other unhealthy foods can be eaten for as little as a ten-pound note a week or less - not exactly value for money, as the very cheapest foods tend also to be the unhealthiest ones, too.

As for my farmers' markets in London, they are certainly not the best in the world, merely being a standard feature, provided one looks around enough for sources - in Vienna, Austria, I was also able to get numerous rawpalaeo wild foods  after doing some extensive searching - in Italy, my only handicap is that I have no car and don't speak Italian, otherwise I could get rawpalaeo foods at much cheaper prices, if I wanted to. GS's type of food-markets are featured all over the 3rd world in countries which haven't yet gone in for intensive-farming in the way that the US as done. Others have mentioned here how easy it is to get hold of raw, grassfed meats in countries like Brazil or Mexico, and so on. While I concede that there are a very few areas in the world which have food-supply issues, such as perhaps Singapore or Dubai and the like, c.90 percent of the world is not a problem as regards finding cheap sources of rawpalaeo foods.

Whatever the case, I have not noticed, anywhere in Europe or the UK, any increases in prices of rawpalaeo foods compared to SAD diet foods(indeed, according to reports, grain-prices have soared at times far more than other types of food, for various reasons, in the last 10 years all over the world) - same goes for demand - the number of rawpalaeos has risen given that some of the farmers I buy from have rawpalaeodiet clients other than me increasingly, but prices haven't changed as a result, and while I personally have not noticed any shortfall as a result of this increase, I have enough other sources that I don't need to worry.

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2011, 09:55:28 am »
While the overall US inflation has been down in the single digits (http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/currentinflation.asp), the increase in food prices, including meat, has been exceeding the overall inflation rate. The increase in grain prices is reportedly part of the reason for the increase in meat prices in the USA: "Since last June, the corn price has doubled. Soy and wheat prices are each up 60 percent. Cattle and hog prices have risen 25 percent." (Corn's Domino Effect, http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/15/is-the-world-producing-enough-food/corns-domino-effect) Whether this has a spillover effect into pastured meats, I don't know. It must for grain-finished pastured meats.

I've been tracking pastured meat prices at multiple sources in this area and for whatever reason they've been going up. My father reports the same thing down in suburban Florida. Like I said, it could be just due to increased costs rather than any increased demand, but whatever the reason it is taking bigger and bigger bites of my budget and exceeding the rate of increase in my wages. I have been compensating somewhat by buying fewer of my most expensive foods, like sashimi-quality fish.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 10:05:16 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2011, 10:45:13 am »
Prices are going up where I am as well, I was told that the higher corn prices cause the prices for grass fed beef to increase because it somehow increases demand. Sounds insane but its true. What do you mean corn prices affect grass fed beef prices, it just don't make sense

The facts are that its the dieing dollar that is to blame. As the dollar dies, the vultures are going to invest heavily in commodities which will drive prices up across the board and further bankrupt the hungry people of the world. The economic system has never evolved to the point were it can capitalize on all the advances in technology that are sitting on the shelves. In fact I claim that there are economic forces that act to suppress the development of technology's that would raise the standard of living for everyone and keep prices reasonable.

There is a deliberate scheme that is being orchestrated right now, for the big investment house like JP Morgan to buy up commodities for the purpose of driving up prices and profiting from the starvation of the poor. Its a crime and one of the great crimes of our age. Its sad that we have such abundant resources that arnt being invested in.  If could only free ourselves from the control of banks then new technology could be properly developed and production could increase to meet whatever demand the people may have.  

I bought a 58 pound case of beef today for 170 dollars , next week that same case will cost over 200 dollars.( Inflation)
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2011, 06:22:25 am »
"More and more people are eating like a caveman with a thing called the paleo diet. Don’t even think of eating processed foods." http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/03/17/poggio-reviewed-kuro-ramen-and-paleo-diets-examined-in-todays-datebook/
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline magnetic

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2011, 08:13:11 am »
As I understand it, based on what you and other sources have reported, you are quite lucky to have multiple farmers' markets within London alone, and the biggest one is apparently one of the best in the Western world (and GS' in the Philippines looks even better). As I've asked before, please try to keep in mind that not everyone has equally great farmers' markets or equally great overall access to high quality foods, nor necessarily at the same prices. I uploaded a photo of the biggest farmers' market in my state, which even you must surely admit is a disgrace.

I tried to buy grass fed meat or wild game when I first wanted to eat paleo, but the farmer's market by me is a joke.  It is one of the oldest in the country, but the selection is basically that of a supermarket.  The meats are all grain fed, I went from butcher to butcher asking about grass fed meat, but was told that I wouldn't be able to find that around here.  These Amish farmers sell grass fed beef on occasion, but they are not at the market every week.  It is hit or miss whether or not they show up.  Their meat is really old, which makes me guess they are having trouble selling it, despite being the only ones around selling it.  I bought a frozen cut of beef recently that was dated October last week, it was 6 months old.  Some places just have very little demand for grass fed meat, so no one is growing it.  I have to drive at least 2 hours to get grass fed meat from a farm.

In a nearby suburb, where eating grass fed meat is more trendy, you can pick up some grass fed beef for $10 or more per pound, and that isn't a typo.

As far as costs go, I was spending $20 a week on food eating a SAD but now I am spending $80-$100 a week eating a raw paleo diet.  But every penny is worth it.


Offline raw-al

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2011, 08:59:59 pm »
I wish we got a new RVAF diet guru to replace Aajonus and write a few rawpalaeo-friendly books. I mean, the recipes AV offered were ghastly ones involving unnatural amounts of raw dairy and raw coconut cream and the like.

They might be ghastly to you but my experience is that they work and I love the dairy part.

We (and that's using the term loosely)(really it is she) makes the CC and its so good!

Since going raw I can no longer eat any sugar or sweet things even Maple sugar my all time favourite because my teeth hurt.

Ayurveda considers the taste sweet to be increasing. In other words you increase in size when you consume it. CC and dairy and honey and various kinds of meat are sweet (amongst other things) but when they are cooked or heated I have discovered they change completely and are quite damaging. My initial thoughts are that cooking creates pitta toxins.

Since going raw I do not find it necessary to brush my teeth except for appearance reasons. Decay seems to have stopped.

However having said all this, I do agree that AV's recommendations are not for everyone and he does a big diservice by suggesting them. Sometimes I wonder how he arrives at some of his conclusions. It would be better for everyone if he filled in those blanks in his books rather than just saying it he should give references. But overall I am a fan of his ideas.
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2011, 09:46:28 am »
Quote
Q. Is your research part of a trend?

A. It’s part of this movement to try to listen to evolution in our bodies. We evolved to eat different diets, to run differently and live differently from the ways we do today. People are looking to evolution to find out how our bodies adapted and what might be healthier for us. That’s good.
      --Harvard evolutionary biologist Daniel Lieberman (Born, and Evolved, to Run, By CLAUDIA DREIFUS, A version of this interview appeared in print on August 23, 2011, on page D3 of the New York edition, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/science/23conversation.html?_r=1)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2011, 03:26:36 am »


The way I see - a super tiny group (raw foodists) had the ability to expand and have a voice - but they blew it through in fighting, insulting one another and breaking up into smaller groups and insulting one another. I think this mostly happened because of greed and egotism.

Greed and egotism are part of it, but ignorance is the fertile ground for those to blossom in.  All the mods here get along, even though some eat mostly fruit, and some mostly animal products. The main key is knowing that veganism doesn't work for pretty much anyone, and that the ratio of animal foods to plant foods is an individual thing. That's why the mods get along as well as we do, versus a hypothetical group of people who just discovered eating raw.  It's the knowledge we've gained from years of experience and study that gives us our ability to get along. 

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2011, 05:51:18 am »
I was not referring to the moderators here at all Cherimoya. I am sorry if it appeared that way.

The points were of a wide and general nature referring to raw foodism at large and not pointed here. I have deleted my post to avoid further confusion and because I made mention of my past - which I should not have and I apologize for that.

   

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2011, 06:16:04 am »
Yeah, we're raw foodists here too. For some reason most raw vegans at GITMR, 30BAD and elsewhere think that "raw foodism" means "raw vegan dieting" and "raw foods" means "raw plant foods," despite not mentioning "vegan" or "plants". It gets confusing at times given that people like me are raw foodists ("high raw" in my case) and eat mostly animal foods. I actually think that it's more important to eat animal fats and honey (another animal-sourced food) raw than it is low-fat veggies. I think Tyler agrees with me. It's also important to eat fruits raw, of course, which most people do anyway (except when it comes to modern dieters consuming pasteurized juices, canned fruits and some other exceptions).

With the boom in Paleo diets there has also been a mini boom in raw Paleo and raw Primal diets, with a lot of former raw vegans adding animal foods to their diets, so I think eventually "raw foods" will return to meaning "raw foods."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 06:26:25 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2011, 07:05:13 am »
Yes Phil - that was more of what I was trying to say. You said it better as usual.  ;)

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2011, 12:17:10 pm »
I was not referring to the moderators here at all Cherimoya. I am sorry if it appeared that way.

 

Yeah, so my larger point is that the main difference between the hateful fighting that we have with the vegans versus the fairly civil disagreements between the mods here is a recognition that some animal foods are necessary for pretty much everybody.   Without that knowledge, this forum would be a giant, ungovernable mess. 

I hear you on the greed, though.  The Boutenkos have admitted to adding raw cheese to their diet, and I imagine that most of the raw "vegan" gurus do eat animal products.  I've heard that Ann Wigmore would have cooked bacon, etc. quite regularly, in addition to her raw plant foods.

It's complex.  I can forgive Wigmore for secretly eating bacon, because she was dealing with people who did not have the willpower or support system to actually do raw veganism.  She didn't bother telling them that animal foods were necessary.  She knew they'd eat them anyway, as soon as they left her healing center.

OTOH, people like David Wolfe and Doug Graham are a much bigger problem.  They preach to the masses, and these days, there are quite a few people who have the willpower, support system, and ignorance to actually really do raw veganism long-term.  The modern raw vegan gurus are doing serious harm to people's health...and getting paid for it.

I'm not sure who's worse...Wolfe, with his shameless supplement-shilling, or Dr. Graham, with his low-fat insanity. 

I don't want to call people out like that...but facts are facts.

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2011, 02:34:10 pm »
I actually think that it's more important to eat animal fats and honey (another animal-sourced food) raw than it is low-fat veggies. I think Tyler agrees with me.
Perhaps re that one point. But I don't agree that low-fat veggies should be cooked even if they are "less worse" than cooked animal fats/pasteurised honey. I went in for cooked vegan diets and diets high in cooked vegetables pre-RPD diet, and the only thing cooking facilitated was making vegetables that were very high in antinutrients more palatable, like broccoli. I don't view those kinds of vegetables as being useful re health, whether raw or cooked.
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" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2011, 07:40:17 pm »
Interesting, raw broccoli heads taste sweet to me. I had never liked broccoli until I tried some that wasn't thoroughly cooked, just steamed and then I discovered that I also liked it raw. I remember the first time I tried broccoli raw, I thought to myself, if it tastes this good raw, why on earth would someone boil it?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2011, 08:00:50 pm »
I usually like some brocoli's stem and branches, but the broccoli's flower is bitter for me.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:43:28 am by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2011, 12:37:31 am »
I imagine that most of the raw "vegan" gurus do eat animal products.  I've heard that Ann Wigmore would have cooked bacon, etc. quite regularly, in addition to her raw plant foods.

It's complex.  I can forgive Wigmore for secretly eating bacon, because she was dealing with people who did not have the willpower or support system to actually do raw veganism.  She didn't bother telling them that animal foods were necessary.  She knew they'd eat them anyway, as soon as they left her healing center.


Ann Wigmore did not eat bacon. That is just a strange rumor. What I noticed was that she didn't eat much at all. What happened was that she set up her institute with a board of directors that then stole all control from her even down to taking property so she broke away and set up a new diet based on just a few of the things that worked for her much later in her life living mostly in Puerto Rico. She tried to make everyone eat it in order to make her operations unique and hers again. She could no longer promote what worked for her the previous decades. Her new approach consisted mostly of something the entire staff called "cement soup" because it was awful and terribly constipating. She did not have the same problems with the small amounts she drank of it and she barely needed food. No one followed her directions to eat everything liquified because it was nonsense and even she knew it as she would eat whole produce herself. She would not drink watermelon juice in Boston winters like she instructed others to do either. She was filled with energy and vigor but at the end she was trying to forge something new. No one followed her advice because it made no logical sense. What was taken from her though - worked very well for many others and for her for a long time. You should have seen her at her oldest running around. Shame on whoever is making up things like bacon. Pure rubbish.

In the sense above she did not do what she preached either in that she ate whole produce and not exclusively liquified produce - but that wasn't the case for most of her career before it was taken from her. What happened is that at the end she could not take criticisms into account of her new teaching because of the betrayal from the people that were closest to her before and it was very sad.

I know nothing of the later gurus except that they also got strangely specific like Wigmore did at the end in order to anchor a spot for themselves. That's the problem as I see it. People trying to anchor a place with their own unique little ideas of what works for them at a moment in time.

The uniqueness of the individual and the individual throughout a lifetime of internal and external changes demands flexibility of mind and open options. Once a specific hole is dug and someone jumps in and keeps digging the longer they go on digging in that hole, the harder it is to jump out. No matter what the hole is - it comes to the same thing. Just because it worked for a particular individual does not make it what will work for every person considering the diversity of health, history, physical and social environment, genetics etc. and might not even continue to work all the way for that same person into old age. It's what I call "the guru trap".


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2011, 07:04:28 am »
I usually like some brocoli's stem and branches, but the broccoli's flower is bitter for me.
Wow, that's interesting, and for me it's the stems taste OK, a bit tough, and the flower tastes sweeter. It's amazing how much variation there is between individuals. I love the taste of some other crucifers too, as did my grandmother, so that may be a factor.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2011, 09:32:16 am »
I have the same experience as Iguana.. The whole of the raw broccoli tastes nice and sweet to me, except for the dark green stuff at the top which is dry.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Interest in Paleo Diets is Exploding
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2011, 09:51:46 am »
The florets of broccoli have 7 times the amount of beta-carotene so which tastes better to individuals might have something to do with that?

The parts change how they tastes for me time to time  - or maybe it's from plant to plant.


 

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