Author Topic: Squall's Journal  (Read 14145 times)

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Offline Squall

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Squall's Journal
« on: September 15, 2008, 09:40:27 am »
I figured I'd go ahead and start one of these. Never done it with diet-related forums, but then again I don't think I've ever had this much conviction about nutrition either.

My first order of meat (approximately 26 lbs.) won't arrive til later this week (Thursday maybe), so I'm unsure what to do until then. Then I'm unsure of what to do after I get the meat. Oh sure, I'll eat it, but I'm still trying to figure out how often; how much; which combinations of organs, meats, and fats; how much should be set aside for high meats, and what; etc.

So what do you guys think I should do til then? Fast? Follow a cooked paleo, low-carb regime? Cleanses?

Another thing I'd like to point out: some of these threads are freaking me out! People are talking about some serious transitional problems. I'd have to say that having to rush to the bathroom every 15 min. or so for a few weeks is going to cause some serious problems at work. Then there's all the talk about the heart palpitations and stuff. Heart problems scare me too. This is probably the first nutritional program that I've walked into not being completely optimistic. Which might be a good thing, since my other adventures contained too much optimism, often at the expense of realism. But anyway ...

One last issue: what's the deal with liver and carbs? Some people seem to keep saying eating liver is like eating carbs. What's the deal with this? I thought it was protein and fat?
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 10:07:27 am »
Cool, looking forward to reading your journal.
I had heart palpitations, but they stopped. I don't get them anymore.
And I never had that problem with going to the bathroom, although constipation was an issue pretty recently. I think I'm over that for now, hopefully.

And yeah, I never understood that about liver either. When I look up nutritional data for liver, it's mostly protein and a little bit of fat.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 06:13:51 pm »

So what do you guys think I should do til then? Fast? Follow a cooked paleo, low-carb regime? Cleanses?

Another thing I'd like to point out: some of these threads are freaking me out! People are talking about some serious transitional problems. I'd have to say that having to rush to the bathroom every 15 min. or so for a few weeks is going to cause some serious problems at work. Then there's all the talk about the heart palpitations and stuff. Heart problems scare me too. This is probably the first nutritional program that I've walked into not being completely optimistic. Which might be a good thing, since my other adventures contained too much optimism, often at the expense of realism. But anyway ...

One last issue: what's the deal with liver and carbs? Some people seem to keep saying eating liver is like eating carbs. What's the deal with this? I thought it was protein and fat?

You might want to fast for the next few days((raw)juice-fast or water-fast). Better than eating cooked-palaeo.
Re bathroom/toilet every 15(-30) minutes:- That was presumably a reference to my own experience. Actually, it only lasted 2-3 days for me. Anyway, everybody's initial detox is widely different - most(?) take a couple of days, some take a few weeks, while others experience no detox at all. Plus, symptoms are all widely different:- some people will feel fatigue, while others get constipation or diarrhea etc. - it all varies greatly from individual to individual.

Re heart-palpitations:- I was referring to a zero-carb experiment or two, in my own case, not to rawpalaeo in general. Anyway, I'd already had worse heart-palpitations etc. in the years before going rawpaleo, when I was either on Raw Vegan or cooked-food diets. Bear in mind that some others who've done zero-carb have done fine - so, just experiment and see what works.
If you're woried, you could always start doing minimal cooking and then gradually reduce the average temperature by 1 degree, adding any raw sauces if you want to.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 09:45:21 pm »
Liver contains glycogen.

Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 11:14:05 pm »
I like the idea of a water-fast, which I'm assuming means that I can drink water. Should I also take some probiotics during the fast or should I just pass on that. Mind you, I've got none of that good EM stuff mentioned elsewhere. I have some decent stuff though that I've been happy with in the past.

One question regarding fasts: will I have to worry about hypoglycemia and low blood pressure? Will it come and then go once my body adjusts? Or will I be dealing with it the whole time? I still have to go to work and all and I'm already having a difficult enough time there these days.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 11:25:48 pm »
Squall,
You've been eating non-paleo foods for many years, another few days won't make much difference.  My recommendation?  Take it one step at a time.  

I started with cooked paleo with a lot of fruits and veggies, buying into the common wisdom that our early ancestors ate up to 60% of their diet from plant sources.  The only thing I went cold turkey on was grains, potatoes, beans, and soy products (later I cut out all dairy expect butter).  I cut this stuff out completely.  I had some success but not as much as I expected.  

I did more research and came to the conclusion that my intake of plant food was way to high so I started reducing that and upping the meat.  Veggies and fruits were mostly raw but meat was cooked to medium rare or medium.  At this stage I would often mix one pound of meat which was purchased at the local market and usually stir fried in butter or olive oil, into a small salad (maybe 2-3 cups) of lettuce, tomato, cucumber, and a bit a onion for each of two meals.  I would usually have a small piece of fruit as a snack sometime during the day.  This lead to further improvements in my health and I started to feel really good.

I then ran across the RVAF Forum that Geoff Purcell moderates in the Yahoo Groups.  What a gold mine - not only in the community of memebers, but also in the links that Geoff maintains.  It was there that I read about Steffansson and decided to try an all meat approach.  About the same time I reasoned that no other animal eats it food cooked so why should we - so I started cooking my food less and less until I was eating everything raw.  I also learned the importance of getting enough fat from Geoff's forum and made sure that I purchased fatty cuts of meat or ground meat with at least 20% fat.

All this time my meat was coming from the local supermarket so it was grain-fed.  I knew about grass-fed meats but really didn't know the difference until I joined Geoff's forum and started doing more research.  I learned that one of the primary differences between grain-fed animals and grass-fed animals was that the fat of grass-fed animals had very high content of Omega3 fatty acids.  The meat I was purchasing was grain-fed so I started taking Omega3 supplements in the form of fish oil capsules.  I purchased the inexpensive ones from Costco and took about 30 per day (with meals) which comes to just about one ounce of fat from this source.     And, I then started researching sources for grass-fed meats.

There was also a lot of discussion on Geoff's forum about the importance of eating organ meats.  I had always hated things like liver when I was growing up so this didn't excite me but I decided that I really did need to add organs meats if I expected to gain and keep good health.  I purchased small amounts of brain, tripe, heart, kidney, liver, toungue, and anything else I could find.  I wasn't wild about them but actually found that most were easier to eat raw than cooked.  I knew I wanted to eat a variety of organs and some tasted better than others so I was tempted to eat the ones I liked over the ones I probably needed.  One day I remembered that I had a meat grinder and so I started grinding the organ meats into a chunky mix of everything I could find at the local market - usually about equal weights of each - though liver made things very runny so I often used a half measure of liver.

I then started adding my organ mix to my daily meat.  The organ mix tasted very strong so I started by mixing 1/4 lb of organs to 4 lbs of meat.  I gradually increased this over time as I adapted to the stronger taste.

I tried a few web sources for grass-fed meats.  I liked some sources better than others and finally settled on Slankers as my main supply.  They also had a mix that they called Dog & Cat which was made up from all the different cuts of meats including the organ meats.  I decided to try this so I ordered 20 lbs or so.  My initial thought was to just eat the D&C since it had everything in it.  I got it and prepared a meal.  Boy was it strong tasting and I just couldn't eat it straight.  I ended up using it like my organ mixture and mixed it with other meat from the local market just to be able to eat it.

My next order of grass-fed meat was 10 lbs of D&C, 40 lbs of regular ground meat, and 10 lbs suet.  I mixed this at 4 parts meat to 1 part D&C and 1 part fat, by weight and it worked out great.  Over the next few months I became accustomed to the taste of the D&C and found I could increase the D&C and reduce the ground muscle meat.  I also tried Slankers course ground "Chili" meat and found I really liked the texture.  It gave me something to chew.   My current mix is 2 lbs Chili meat with 1 1/2 lbs D&C plus 3/4 lbs fat and this makes my mix 80% calories from fat and 20% from protein.  I don't recommend this as I now feel the fat is a bit to high and I'll return to my 65% fat mixture in a couple of weeks when my 4 month high fat experiment is over.  The lower fat mix will have 1/4 lb of added fat rather than 3/4 lb.

I also stopped taking the fish oil once I converted to all grass-fed meat.  I now only take fish oil if I eat out and have a meal of normal commercial grain fed meats.  

As you can see the whole adventure has been an evolutionary process.  I started with a basic idea of going paleo, and then refined my diet as I learned more.  However, I often found I couldn't tolerate to rapid a change (like adding too much organ meat), so I would cut back to something I could easily eat if not enjoy.  

If you move to fast and hate the taste of what you are eating you won't stick with it.  I recommend you start easy, take incemental steps, and adjust things along the way.  You have nothing but time, and you'll find a great deal of support here on this forum.

Hope this helps,

Lex

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 11:35:24 pm »
I like the idea of a water-fast, which I'm assuming means that I can drink water. Should I also take some probiotics during the fast or should I just pass on that. Mind you, I've got none of that good EM stuff mentioned elsewhere. I have some decent stuff though that I've been happy with in the past.

One question regarding fasts: will I have to worry about hypoglycemia and low blood pressure? Will it come and then go once my body adjusts? Or will I be dealing with it the whole time? I still have to go to work and all and I'm already having a difficult enough time there these days.
Don't use probiotics until the fast is ended. Anyway, it's only for 2-3 days until you get your raw meats, right?

My only experience with water-fasts was that I was unable to continue them, easily, past 4 days(continuous days, that is), due to increasing hunger-pangs which interfered with other activities.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 12:00:21 am »
Don't use probiotics until the fast is ended. Anyway, it's only for 2-3 days until you get your raw meats, right?

Most probiotics depend on significant consumption of carbs to be effecive.  The bacteria in the commercial probiotic preparations can't survive or multiply in an envrionment of mostly meat and fat.  In fact, when eating predominently meat, the small intestine has very few bacteria and the colon converts to putrefactive bacteria rather than yeasts and fermentive bacteria like lactobacillus.

My only experience with water-fasts was that I was unable to continue them, easily, past 4 days(continuous days, that is), due to increasing hunger-pangs which interfered with other activities.

What! you're not going to try to break by 31 day water fast record? What a light weight!  ;D  Actually, if I had it to do over again I wouldn't do it either.  Four or five days is probably plenty and it won't cause the massive atrophy of muscles that I experienced.  It took me over 2 years to recover and who knows what permanent damage was done.

Lex

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 12:12:06 am »
What! you're not going to try to break by 31 day water fast record? What a light weight!  ;D  Actually, if I had it to do over again I wouldn't do it either.  Four or five days is probably plenty and it won't cause the massive atrophy of muscles that I experienced.  It took me over 2 years to recover and who knows what permanent damage was done.

And that's why I worry about an all fat diet for you, Lex.  You're a big boy and can take care of yourself, but this experiment might not be worth it for your health, depending on the duration of it.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2008, 01:14:43 am »
And that's why I worry about an all fat diet for you, Lex.  You're a big boy and can take care of yourself, but this experiment might not be worth it for your health, depending on the duration of it.

Satya,
I'm looking a 2 days, maybe 3.  My thinking is that I must go long enough to get good BG readings but don't want over do it.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 04:26:14 am »
In fact, when eating predominently meat, the small intestine has very few bacteria and the colon converts to putrefactive bacteria rather than yeasts and fermentive bacteria like lactobacillus.

Lex

I thought that the small intestine should not have any bacteria?

Nicola

Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 06:51:20 am »
I plan on starting a couple-day fast (water only) starting tomorrow morning. It should last until the morning after I receive my order, which should be Thursday (at the latest). If it is, then I'll begin eating raw, grass-fed meat Friday morning.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 03:16:37 am »
I was wondering if I should break this fast. I started it yesterday morning and have had only water, some green tea, and a dose of fiber (probably should've gone without this one) since then. I got sick yesterday (detox?) and now its considerably worse. I feel like I have the flu and its impossible for me to do anything at work. Maybe I should just take some time off and switch to juice fast instead?

BTW, is this normal, and would you call it a detox or just coincidental sickness?
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 08:03:19 am »
Might I humbly suggest that you rethink your strategy.  Take this transition step-by-step.  Time is on your side. If you try to push too fast, you're likely to give up before you get out of the starting blocks.

  • eat when you are hungry
  • eat until you are satisfied
  • make a plan to systematically remove non-paleo food from your diet
    • first month remove all grains
    • second month remove dairy
    • third month remove beans and legumes etc.
  • incorporate paleo friendly foods to replace those that you remove
  • cook less and less until you are finally eating most or all of your food raw

You'll experience reactions along the way.  Deal with them as they arise, and then wait until they are resolved before you make the next change.  Give your body time to adapt.   On those occasions when you fall off the wagon, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and climb back on.  Don't hurry it, there is plenty of time.

Lex
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 08:07:26 am by lex_rooker »

Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 09:19:03 am »
Might I humbly suggest that you rethink your strategy.  Take this transition step-by-step.  Time is on your side. If you try to push too fast, you're likely to give up before you get out of the starting blocks.

Yes, Lex. This is sound advice. However, I'd like to point out that I gave up raw dairy a month ago and that I've been eating raw meat off and on since May, so there might not be any need for such a long adjustment period.

On the other hand, I had no idea that fasting could lead to such debilitating symptoms. I'm still unsure if this is what the fasting guys call a detox or if I just happened to get a really bad bug right after starting the fast. My head is on fire! I'll be breaking this water fast shortly with fresh fruit juice, and yes, I will take that slowly ;). I'm also taking tomorrow off from work to give me some extra time to recover.

Thanks for your advice.

P.S. Meat should be here tomorrow.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2008, 09:45:53 am »
Have you ever water fasted before?  Forgive me if I missed that info.  It can be hairy, but the illness could be coincidental too.  Are you sneezing or coughing?  Fever?  If not, it may well be detox.  If so, it may still be, but I'd think not as likely.  My taekwondo teacher has a cold just now.  And my son has major autmn grass allergies.  Is that hayfever?  Or is that in the spring?  Changes in seasons can cause that.  I remember in Prescott I had cottonwood allergies in spring and juniper in fall.  Here I am not experiencing that.

Anyway, be well, and may the Force be with you.

Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 09:54:15 am »
Satya,

I've never water fasted for more than twelve hours. When I did that it was in preparation for surgery and I was allowed to drink black coffee. Anyway, I'm not sneezing or coughing, just have an annoying fever, and some drainage. Usually when I get these things, fever is the last stage, although it takes days for me before it finally decays away. Also, this might be related to my love affair with cigars. Perhaps its time to bring this romance to an end? And, of course, thanks for the well wishes.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2008, 10:21:15 am »
On the other hand, I had no idea that fasting could lead to such debilitating symptoms. I'm still unsure if this is what the fasting guys call a detox or if I just happened to get a really bad bug right after starting the fast. My head is on fire! I'll be breaking this water fast shortly with fresh fruit juice, and yes, I will take that slowly ;). I'm also taking tomorrow off from work to give me some extra time to recover.

It could be a "detox" reaction - especially if you are loaded with Candida.  It could also be that you just happened to get a bad bug.  In either case, drink plenty of fluids, get lots of rest, and take aspirin !! :o !! Did I say that!  Obviously I've been influenced by way too much TV....

Lex

Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2008, 11:55:04 am »
I'm finding that eating all raw is hard for me. I'm having serious hunger issues, but the thought of eating raw (especially suet) makes me want to gag ... either that or just not eat.

I don't think suet was a good idea. I'm going to get hide fat next time. Even the blandness of the ground beef I'm eating is unappealing. The suet is really sticky when I chew it. Its almost like glue in my mouth. I'm finding that I'm having serious cravings for any cooked food: fatty, salty, sugary, I don't care! Partially cooking is more pleasing to my palate but leaves me feeling heavy. Oh, I'm also consuming beef liver uncooked in the morning. Its been the least surprising of all, as I was sure that I would not like it from the beginning.

It makes me wonder how long these cravings for cooked food will last. This is normal right?
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2008, 12:05:55 pm »
Oh yes... at least for me it was.
It will eventually lose its grip on you. Stay strong, but don't feel bad if you give in.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2008, 05:11:26 pm »
It usually takes c.8 to 12 months for people to get rid of their cravings for cooked-foods.

Part of the problem is that cooked-food contains opioid peptides which are highly addictive(such peptides are also present in dairy and wheat). That's partly why I went cold-turkey rather than mixing raw and cooked together, so as to wean myself off the addiction more easily.

However, in general, the main reason why SAD-eaters prefer cooked-food is primarily because of lifelong habits. Like a number RPDers, I remember stealing bits of raw meats from the kitchen when I was very young(in my case raw kidney), and rather liked it - but when I tried it again 25 years later, it took me some time to get to really enjoy it again. So, the main thing is to get into the habit. If you simply can't stomach certain foods, and can't handle partially-cooked, either, then I would suggest you do much the same as I did, which is to buy very small amounts of dozens of different foods from all over the place, until you find those which taste good, right from the start. As a result, I found that I took an instant liking to raw goatmeat, most raw shellfish, some types of raw fish and the like, and was able to depend on those for 90% of my diet, until I got used to and enjoyed the other 10% of my diet(consisting of those foods I didn't like, but persisted with).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 06:51:30 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 12:54:10 am »
I've been eating some white lamb fat recently. Not sure if its suet or hide fat as Slanker's didn't say, but its kind of weird. First of all, the stuff is sticky as hell. Its like peanut butter only 18,000 times more annoying. I had a decent portion in the afternoon with some beef chili meat and it wasn't until I woke up this morning that it had finally all gotten out of my mouth. Needless to say, using my tongue to scrape fat particles for hours on end has left my mouth feeling dry and tender, especially the top of my tongue and the roof of my mouth. Other than that, I recall feeling very panicky after eating some yesterday with a barely noticeable breathing difficulty. It took about an hour for that to go away. I've noticed similar things with beef suet, whether its partially cooked or completely raw. Also, it seems like I get a recurring lower flank pain a little while after I eat the stuff that lasts for a few hours.

Are all these things normal? I wonder if I'm overdoing it. I think for the time being I'm just going to eat fatty chili meat without any extra fat added to it until this stuff gets sorted out. Maybe I need to get much better fat or something?
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Offline Kristelle

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 03:51:35 am »
The lower flank pain and breathing difficulty sound much like the symptoms I had after eating fat. By lower flank pain, do you really mean to say right upper abdominal pain, just under ribcage? If so, then this is likely your gallbladder trying to flush out bile to digest the fat and unable to, perhaps due to some gallstones or some inflammation caused by a previous low-fat diet. It takes time to adapt to digesting fat so perhaps gradually increase fat content or have more frequent meals until the problems subside.

I doubt it has anything to do with the quality of the fat but more to do with your ability at the moment to process fat. Be patient, it'll get better. ;)

Offline Squall

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 08:00:26 am »
By lower flank pain, do you really mean to say right upper abdominal pain, just under ribcage?

Actually, I meant pain in my lower back toward the side. I associate this with kidney issues, but pain seems to be the only symptom I have. I have never peed blood, urinated frequently, or had really bad itchy skin. This could also just be lower back pain, but I thought I noticed a correlation between eating a high-fat meal and having some pain later. I'll need to watch this more closely and vary some factors to know for sure, but I was just wondering if anybody else had this kind of deal.

But, yes, Kristelle, I do have gall bladder issues from time to time. When it was bad, I would have an incredibly tight feeling directly in the center of my chest, like my sternum (xiphoid process) needed to pop or something. Other times there was just a tightness in the mid-right torso. Its a good thing the gall bladder is on the right side of the body, because I would've convinced myself I had major heart issues otherwise!
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Squall's Journal
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2008, 12:00:17 am »
I've been eating some white lamb fat recently. Not sure if its suet or hide fat as Slanker's didn't say, but its kind of weird. First of all, the stuff is sticky as hell. Its like peanut butter only 18,000 times more annoying. I had a decent portion in the afternoon with some beef chili meat and it wasn't until I woke up this morning that it had finally all gotten out of my mouth. Needless to say, using my tongue to scrape fat particles for hours on end has left my mouth feeling dry and tender, especially the top of my tongue and the roof of my mouth. Other than that, I recall feeling very panicky after eating some yesterday with a barely noticeable breathing difficulty. It took about an hour for that to go away. I've noticed similar things with beef suet, whether its partially cooked or completely raw. Also, it seems like I get a recurring lower flank pain a little while after I eat the stuff that lasts for a few hours.

Are all these things normal? I wonder if I'm overdoing it. I think for the time being I'm just going to eat fatty chili meat without any extra fat added to it until this stuff gets sorted out. Maybe I need to get much better fat or something?

Hey Squall,

I've only started on RAF this last few days (previously been eating cooked Paleo) and i've experienced the same thing as far as the panicky symptoms go. I've been eating a few lamb organ meats with quite a bit of raw lamb suet (the sticky stuff that took forever to get off the roof of my mouth too) and not long after eating this I got a panicky feeling which stayed for about an hour. It's happened too days in a row now!!! :( Not quite sure what's going on.

I'm hoping it will just take my body a while to adapt to eating this way and become fully keto-adapted. Think I might cut down on the suet for a while though.

G

 

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