Author Topic: Question about weight-lifting  (Read 33453 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Question about weight-lifting
« on: April 26, 2011, 10:16:34 pm »
Hi folks,

I've had plenty of experience with exercise and martial arts, but have never bothered to do any amount of weight-lifting.

I knew a guy from the old rawpaleo yahoo group who had been trying a new method for a while.

He said he would lift a very heavy weight (like in a military press, or bench press) to maximum extension, and then just hold it there for several minutes.  He said that keeping the muscles still encourages cross connections between muscle fibers, which would increase strength as much or more than actually moving the weight up/down. Any thoughts? He said this wouldn't increase bulk, but it would increase strength.

Offline Josh

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 12:26:47 am »
Maybe the idea has some merit, but I can only say that I have had good results from doing a lot of reps and a lot of sets so far.

I'd say that's better for beginners as you can control what you're doing without worrying about injuries from super heavy weights etc.

Offline HIT_it_RAW

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 684
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 06:26:19 pm »
static holds in holds in the position of maximum contraction for that particular exercise have some value. Lift a weight haevy enough to hit failure at the 8-10th rep then hold as long as possible than lower as slowly as possible.

When lifting a weight internal muscular friction reduces your strenght by ~20%(if fresh) that is why you can hold a weight after you can no longer lift it because there is no friction without movement. The same friction increases your strenght by ~20% when lowering the weight, so you can lower the weight under control after you can no longer hold it. This means that doing a static hold after you've hit failure stresses the muscle harder and thus creates a stronger stimulus for growt, however it also stresses your recovery system more so allow enough time to recover. Doing an extra, slow, controlled negative (after someones helps you lift the weight) stresses the muscle even more but again also requires longer recovery time.

Any exercise that increases strenght eventually also increases bulk. A muscle produces force in relation to its cross section. Strength does initially increasy without adding bulk because your neuromuscular coördination and skill increase. Meaning that you can use more of the available muscle fibers at once. After that initial strength increase the muscle must grow bigger which happens very sudden. After that you strength goes up again because you are again improving your neuromuscular coordination of the newly gained muscular mass.

Plotting both bulk and strength would look like this. A stair like graph for the bulk as your mass grows very sudden. After each mass increase strength increases rapidly at first and than slows down until a new size increase allows additional strength increases.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:22:12 pm by HIT_it_RAW »
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 11:16:27 am »
Well, I've been toying around with this recently, and it seems to be working.

I think the goal of increasing strength without increasing size is ideal, because then you don't have to eat extra food to keep your muscles big and strong.  I don't want to spend any more money or time on eating than I have to.

Offline RomanK

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 01:40:40 am »
HIT, might be you can help me to solve the question: from all the sources I learned that HIT session includes whole body training practically nonstop (total around 15 min), then one must have a good long recovery time till next session (5-10 days). I could not find why it was impossible to split like in normal weight training? Let's say you do legs on Monday and chest on Friday.  I use some mix: like normal squats till max weight (for this given day) then I do slow leg press till failure. Or I do rather slow deadlifts. The same with chest: normal free weight push-up, then one set of press in machine to failure. I have listened to Dr. Doug on u-tube, he looks OK, but not more than OK. He makes 4 different exercises for upper body and just leg press for lower body. And for sure leg press is far away from real squats in all senses. What is yr opinion?

Offline Chris

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Gender: Male
  • Each journey starts with a step
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 12:40:11 pm »
Hi folks,

I've had plenty of experience with exercise and martial arts, but have never bothered to do any amount of weight-lifting.

I knew a guy from the old rawpaleo yahoo group who had been trying a new method for a while.

He said he would lift a very heavy weight (like in a military press, or bench press) to maximum extension, and then just hold it there for several minutes.  He said that keeping the muscles still encourages cross connections between muscle fibers, which would increase strength as much or more than actually moving the weight up/down. Any thoughts? He said this wouldn't increase bulk, but it would increase strength.

No offense. But, that sounds like a crock of shit. That's not how to gain strength. If you want to gain weight/strength increase your weights and lower your reps (3-4 sets).

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2012, 09:06:50 pm »
No offense. But, that sounds like a crock of shit. That's not how to gain strength. If you want to gain weight/strength increase your weights and lower your reps (3-4 sets).

ROFL Meanwhile, in the real world, this is actually working quite well for me.

When I started, I could hang in a pullup position (with elbows at a 90-degree angle) for about 10 seconds. Now I can do about 90 seconds.  I've been doing it once daily for about 4 months.  I'd call that a strength increase.  I also test it by doing pullups to failure every few weeks.  when I started I could do maybe 1 pullup.  Now I'm up to probably 10 or so.

The same thing is happening with handstand pushups.  Once daily, I get into handstand position, then lower myself until the top of my head almost touches the floor.  When I started 4 months ago, I could hold it for maybe 4 seconds.  Now I can hold it for about 20 seconds.

It sure looks to me like my strength is increasing just fine, and with much less risk of joint damage.  Also, my muscle mass has barely increased at all.  I've gained maybe 3 pounds of muscle, total, and very little size.  I like that, because I don't want my strength to be dependent on eating a bunch of food to keep my muscles big.

Offline Barefoot Instincto

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2012, 11:21:26 pm »
Recently I've been learning about Himalayan crystal salt (if you're not using this, you're severely missing out!). Based on an understanding of the composition of our body (almost entirely water and minerals) I've come to the conclusion that you don't need to "eat large amounts of food" like is stated everywhere when it comes to maintaining body mass.

I've yet to fully test this as I'm still a fair noob, but from what I gather what truly determines overall health, period, is your body's water level, its water quality, its mineral level and its mineral quality. Behind every process you do, every single one, is a water molecule. Within every one of your cells is a concentration of salt water (84 minerals) and its movement within your body is pretty much exclusively what gives us our energy and our power to live. Everything else we take in simply either provides building blocks (like fat, protein, vitamins, hormones etc) or is garbage.

Ensuring you eat clean foods, regularly supplement generously with Himalayan crystal salt (all 84 required body elements combined into a perfectly charged crystal structure) and drink lots of high quality water, things should work out just fine. That's even if your fat, protein and carb levels and intakes aren't ideal. Its truly minerals and water, the buzzing chemical electricity of the sea that matters far above all else.

With todays food, even if its high quality, a lot of the minerals can be too large, too uncharged (uses your own bodies life force to power them up to be usable, unlike the crystal salt, which creates an energy deficient, not a gain) or of the wrong type for us to even use them. The most they can do is uselessly circulate in our blood. The proper type of minerals found in this salt have been compressed into such a tiny structure that each and every one of those 84 elements, when broken apart by your body, can go directly into every cell and every part of your body, providing the absolute perfect substance.

Oh and as a side note, since starting to give it to my ferrets four days ago (also when I started), they've been twice as playful as usual, and with twice the intensity! Its also self sustained a lot now, whereas before I had to be the third party keeping the...Party, going. Mind you, also, that this is also, STILL, after a year of them eating only different types of raw meats, and eggs, with bone and organs. Organic, as well. So even with such a high quality diet for so long, I've already witnessed a massive change.

I feel it greatly within myself, too. :) I feel better in every way. I'm convinced high quality water (this includes foods, which are mostly all water!) and minerals (and a combination of the two you let sit and charge up called Sole) is the absolute key to gaining strength, mass, health, vitality! Its our very core, and we're pretty much entirely that core.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:02:43 am by Barefoot Instincto »

Offline Polyvore

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 10:08:48 am »
ROFL Meanwhile, in the real world, this is actually working quite well for me.

When I started, I could hang in a pullup position (with elbows at a 90-degree angle) for about 10 seconds. Now I can do about 90 seconds.  I've been doing it once daily for about 4 months.  I'd call that a strength increase.  I also test it by doing pullups to failure every few weeks.  when I started I could do maybe 1 pullup.  Now I'm up to probably 10 or so.

The same thing is happening with handstand pushups.  Once daily, I get into handstand position, then lower myself until the top of my head almost touches the floor.  When I started 4 months ago, I could hold it for maybe 4 seconds.  Now I can hold it for about 20 seconds.

It sure looks to me like my strength is increasing just fine, and with much less risk of joint damage.  Also, my muscle mass has barely increased at all.  I've gained maybe 3 pounds of muscle, total, and very little size.  I like that, because I don't want my strength to be dependent on eating a bunch of food to keep my muscles big.

There is truth in both cases, tbh. Static holds will make you strong, but they will only make you so strong before you will start to require concentric and eccentric lifts again. Static holds might take your strength to a point that impresses you, allowing you to do bodyweight exercises, but if you are wanting to lift multiple times your bodyweight, or reach beyond your 'newb' gains, you will need to do something traditional such as low rep training.

Offline Neone

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 12:19:23 pm »
When I stopped talking out of my ass and actually tried weight lifting I was really surprised with how effective it was at enhancing my physical ability. I thought that since I did lots of hard yoga and kickboxing style activities that I didn't need to weightlift and that kind of thing just makes you muscle bound and slow.

All that I found was that you get a little tight after some heavy lifting but you really notice your strength gains at the start when things that used to be heavy to you are suddenly no problem at all to lift. 

I only eat as much as I want to eat, I figure my body is smart enough to tell me to eat if it needs some food so i dont stress out about my calories or whatever so I dont really feel like that is an issue.

I used to be one of those 'functional strength' talking people since i did 'functional styled exercise', but then I thought i would test out Hit_it_raw's theories on strength where basicly the size of your muscle is a pretty good indication of its strength. And my observation was I started lifting weights, My muscles got bigger, and I got stronger.

I think the guys who go to the gym, lift incorrectly (your joint damage), only work their chest and biceps, and then go home and eat pizza and drink whey powder muscle max stuff and get weird fat/water retention problems and look all bloated give weightlifting a bad image. If you're eating good food and lifting correctly you should only see benefits.
That's not paleo.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 08:21:52 am »

I think the guys who go to the gym, lift incorrectly (your joint damage), only work their chest and biceps, and then go home and eat pizza and drink whey powder muscle max stuff and get weird fat/water retention problems and look all bloated give weightlifting a bad image. If you're eating good food and lifting correctly you should only see benefits.

I definitely agree that diet makes a big difference when it comes to joint health, as does proper form,  a la Esther Gokhale.  I definitely think that reducing dairy consumption, especially low-fat dairy, makes a big difference in joint health.

However, if you want your joints to still be in good shape when you're 80 or 90, I think static holds are probably the safest bet.

Offline Polyvore

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 08:36:31 am »
I think if you want to keep your full range of motion when you are 80 or 90, you will at least need to do full range of motion resistance exercise.

Offline Neone

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 03:47:55 pm »
What kind of weight are you talking when you think it is going to cause joint damage?  Like, 40lbs on a bicep curl is going to destroy your elbows?
That's not paleo.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 10:59:21 am »
I think if you want to keep your full range of motion when you are 80 or 90, you will at least need to do full range of motion resistance exercise.

Why does there have to be resistance?  You think all these yogis in their 80s and 90s who have excellent range-of-motion lift weights throughout their whole range-of-motion?

Think again.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 11:00:22 am »
What kind of weight are you talking when you think it is going to cause joint damage?  Like, 40lbs on a bicep curl is going to destroy your elbows?

A few dozen reps, a few times a week, for 50 or 60 years?  I don't think it would help, put it that way.

Some people are certainly more susceptible that others, certainly...

Offline Neone

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2012, 01:02:18 pm »
Well I dont know about you, but the observations about my own body that I have made are that if i stress my body in a sensible way, it adapts and then becomes more able than it was before.  This applies to more than just muscle growth. When you bear weight your bones become stronger. When you stress your ability to be patient, you develop more patience.  Start taking cold showers and your body becomes more able at dealing with the cold. Go up a mountain and your body adapts to the lack of oxygen and your body becomes more able.

There is a difference between knowing your body and sensibly stressing it, and loading up 700lbs and throwing your back out.
That's not paleo.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 10:40:10 am »
Well I dont know about you, but the observations about my own body that I have made are that if i stress my body in a sensible way, it adapts and then becomes more able than it was before.  This applies to more than just muscle growth. When you bear weight your bones become stronger. When you stress your ability to be patient, you develop more patience.  Start taking cold showers and your body becomes more able at dealing with the cold. Go up a mountain and your body adapts to the lack of oxygen and your body becomes more able.

There is a difference between knowing your body and sensibly stressing it, and loading up 700lbs and throwing your back out.

Agreed.  You are 100% right about all of that, I couldn't agree more.

However, completely separate from all that, is the simple process of aging.  Eventually, for many people, aging is going to make their joints more fragile and prone to overuse injuries.  It's important to be aware of that. 

My point is that static holds will let you maintain your exercise program much longer than moving against resistance.


Offline Joy2012

  • Shaman
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 11:02:44 am »
Eventually, for many people, aging is going to make their joints more fragile and prone to overuse injuries.  It's important to be aware of that. 

My point is that static holds will let you maintain your exercise program much longer than moving against resistance.

An interesting point. Is it a well-proven point scientifically?

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 10:28:23 pm »
An interesting point. Is it a well-proven point scientifically?

Nobody is going to bother doing a controlled, double-blind study on this.  However, the fact that people's cartilage tends to just wear out over time is a big problem, and I would guess that resistance exercises through the range of motion would speed that process up, when someone is quite old.  Your body just doesn't recover very quickly beyond a certain age.

Offline RomanK

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2012, 12:04:02 am »
I know the man (56 yo) who started to train about 10 ya form the state of hardly moving bcs of the multiple problems in the joints and the spine. He's progressed to 180 kg squats, high repetition, several sets and other Olympic weight pushing. Due to persistence in his diet, fasting, exercises he is now beyond all CW limits. Thus he is living prove that the joints are renewable tissue and high load on them is very profitable together with other healthy habits.
I have his pics and even his video for weight lifting somewhere but I do not know how to attach them here.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2012, 02:22:43 am »
I know the man (56 yo) who started to train about 10 ya form the state of hardly moving bcs of the multiple problems in the joints and the spine. He's progressed to 180 kg squats, high repetition, several sets and other Olympic weight pushing. Due to persistence in his diet, fasting, exercises he is now beyond all CW limits. Thus he is living prove that the joints are renewable tissue and high load on them is very profitable together with other healthy habits.
I have his pics and even his video for weight lifting somewhere but I do not know how to attach them here.

That's great, but no one has yet proven that moving against resistance is somehow more protective of joint health than static holds combined with full range movement without resistance.

In fact, I suspect the opposite is true.

Offline Neone

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2012, 02:28:59 am »
I dont think it is the exercise that is protective. Its when your body goes 'oh snappingducks, this area of the body is under stress, if we don't do something about it, it may become damaged'  And then your body will attempt to make that area of your body better.
 Like weightlifting temporarily damages your muscle, and then when it repairs it comes back stronger.

Now if you were eating cupcakes and drinking chocolate sauce as meals, I could see you running into problems, but if you are a healthy eater and giving your body everything that it needs to repair itself (nutrition and rest) then you will come out ahead.
That's not paleo.

Offline Azyth

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 12:42:04 am »
Hi folks,

I've had plenty of experience with exercise and martial arts, but have never bothered to do any amount of weight-lifting.

I knew a guy from the old rawpaleo yahoo group who had been trying a new method for a while.

He said he would lift a very heavy weight (like in a military press, or bench press) to maximum extension, and then just hold it there for several minutes.  He said that keeping the muscles still encourages cross connections between muscle fibers, which would increase strength as much or more than actually moving the weight up/down. Any thoughts? He said this wouldn't increase bulk, but it would increase strength.

If you can hold the weight for couple of mins, it's not heavy. Your mind gives up before your muscles. In order to get stronger, you need to work on your CNS (Central nervous system). Pick up a heavy weight for a benchpress for example, that you'll only be able to do anywhere between 1-3 reps. (Good reps) *do not forget to always have a spot*

That's how you build strenght- you build your CNS first.

Hope that helps!

Offline Cavecloth

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 10:54:08 am »
Make sure you eat enough protein/carbs many times throughout the day.

Offline l0rdcha0s

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Question about weight-lifting
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 11:17:26 pm »
If you can hold the weight for couple of mins, it's not heavy. Your mind gives up before your muscles. In order to get stronger, you need to work on your CNS (Central nervous system). Pick up a heavy weight for a benchpress for example, that you'll only be able to do anywhere between 1-3 reps. (Good reps) *do not forget to always have a spot*

That's how you build strenght- you build your CNS first.

Hope that helps!

Static holds and TSC (timed static contractions) help take momentum out of the muscle and rely solely on the muscle's strength. But I agree if you can hold them for a couple of minutes then the weight is too late. You should be aiming for a one and a half to two minute window. And you have to build your CNS, in the beginning it's going to tell you to stop when it gets hard and the lactate begins to build up but eventually you'll learn your body still has more to give. Here's an article about holds and TSC.

http://baye.com/isometrics-static-holds-and-static-contraction-training/

In the gym I complete one set to absolute positive failure in the 2 minute window. Then I move the weight up, wait 10 seconds, and move the exercise into full or 3/4 max contraction (depending on the exercise) and hold it there for as long as I can to exhaust the static and inroad the muscle's strength further. When I can no longer hold it I try to move it back slowly to exhaust the negative (the strongest portion of the exercise). By the time that is done, I'm out of breath, sometimes sweating, and cannot move the weight properly an inch due to properly exhausting the muscle.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk