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Offline Michael

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New to forum - Hello
« on: September 18, 2008, 04:36:03 am »
Hello to you all!

I've just joined this forum after reading through it over the last week or so.  It seems to be a great group and I'm glad to be a part of it!  I just wanted to introduce myself.

I've been eating RAF for about 7 years now and have still not quite attained the radiant health I seek.  Like many of you I came upon RAF - via Weston Price - after suffering major health problems following years of vegetarianism-veganism-raw veganism.  Up until 2 or 3 years ago I was quite closely eating the Primal Diet way but have since cut out the raw milk/cream, vegetable juices, plentiful honey and some of the other bizarre notions of 'gurus' such as AV.  I do still eat raw organic butter from grass-fed jersey cows but would, ideally, like to replace this with suet and/or marrow.    I think I've been heading towards Raw Paleo for some time so am very pleased to have stumbled upon this group.

As I mentioned, I have been reading through many of the posts on the forum and I'm still a little unclear as to what you guys are actually eating.  It would be great to hear some specific details within this single topic if you care to share with me?  Personally, I'm now looking to eat mainly grass-fed beef and liver, wild venison (when I can afford it!), occasional fish, suet/marrow, limited fresh organic/wild veg (salad greens, herbs, onion, garlic, pepper, tomatoes), limited seasonal tart fruits (raspberries, blueberries, gooseberries etc) and very limited soaked/dehydrated/ground nuts & seeds.  I also use Celtic sea salt.  How does that compare with what you guys are eating?  What kind of quantities/ratios are you eating?

Going beyond raw and beyond organic etc I've long been looking at the 'quality' of the foods I'm eating such as trying to source grass-fed animal foods, high-brix fruit/veg etc.  My main problem at the moment does seem to be finding and sourcing such quality.  If only we had a Slankers here in the UK!

Tyler, am I correct in thinking that you're the same UK Geoff from the Primal Diet yahoo group? I think we communicated a few times years ago on that group.  You seem to have moved on very well and it's been interesting reading about your move to Paleo.  I realise that you probably still largely rely on the London farmers markets for supplies but I'm wondering if you have any sources of grass-fed suet or marrow as I'm finding it very difficult to find!? The best grass-fed farmers I can seem to find are Fordhall Farm and the Well Hung Meat Co who both seem genuine in their grain-free feeding.  Unfortunately, I cannot obtain anything but cuts of meat from them.  Are you managing to obtain your paleo fats sufficiently? Any suggestions?

Best wishes,

Michael

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Squall

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 04:48:23 am »
Here's a thread in the off-topic section that might help you get a little better idea:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/off-topic/what-are-you-eating-right-now/

Personally, I don't think its off-topic, but no biggie.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Satya

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 05:10:10 am »
As I mentioned, I have been reading through many of the posts on the forum and I'm still a little unclear as to what you guys are actually eating.  It would be great to hear some specific details within this single topic if you care to share with me?  Personally, I'm now looking to eat mainly grass-fed beef and liver, wild venison (when I can afford it!), occasional fish, suet/marrow, limited fresh organic/wild veg (salad greens, herbs, onion, garlic, pepper, tomatoes), limited seasonal tart fruits (raspberries, blueberries, gooseberries etc) and very limited soaked/dehydrated/ground nuts & seeds.  I also use Celtic sea salt.  How does that compare with what you guys are eating?  What kind of quantities/ratios are you eating?

Welcome, Michael!  This is a great group of fine people we have here.

Your journey and current diet are very similar to my own.  I have cut down on my plant foods lately and feel great as a result.  I do eat some cooked due to family influence, but that consists of fish, chicken or beef stock-based soups or some odd cooked meat.  I have only been eating RAF consistently for a year (but I have always been a sashimi fan).

Best wishes on your continued journey,
Satya

Offline Michael

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 06:03:09 am »
Squall
Thanks for the link.  That made very interesting reading!  Wow, we have a brave bunch here with some of the meals being eaten.

Satya
Thank you.  Yes, it seems like a fine group of people on here.  I'm looking forward to being a member and sharing with & learning from you all.

Interesting to read of our similar journey's and diets.  Likewise, I seem to do better with increasingly less plant foods in my diet and, to an extent, it sometimes feels as though even fruit is a compromise to feeling good.  Having said that, I think Candida is an issue for me and certainly noticed an improvement when I augmented the dietary advice of Bee Wilder (the candida 'expert') to my own RAF diet.

Although I am very committed to my dietary choices, I do feel that it's important not to become obsessive and, like you, also eat 'good' cooked food sometimes due to social pressures.  I do my best to keep this to an absolute minimum - maybe a couple of times a month or so.

Good luck with your own continuing RAF adventure!
Michael
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 06:55:49 am »
Welcome Michael! Glad you made it here.
Since you asked, these are the things that I eat:

-Grass-fed 75% lean ground beef
-various Grass-fed organs (mostly liver, kidney, and heart from beef or lamb)
A- bit of organic fruit (usually apples, plums, or bananas)
-Some organic green leafy veggies (usually spinach, cabbage, or romaine)
-A few tbsp. of honey before a workout
- I drink spring water, mineral water, and some apple cider vinegar. I also use RealSalt on my meat.

I think that's about it. I used to eat seeds and nuts but discovered I did better off without them

My health is not perfect, and there are still some issues I'm dealing with. Hopefully I'll eventually discover what I need or what I can do to correct them. Anyways, glad you're here!

Metallica

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 09:19:45 am »
Quote
I've been eating RAF for about 7 years now and have still not quite attained the radiant health I seek.

thats because RAF is an extreme diet, it wont work and it never will... 99% of the people will either. A try a new diet within 10 years or B. go back to a normal diet of moderation balance.... i say this because every extreme diet i read about only about 1% remain on it for more than 10 years. every person goes back to a balanced diet and eating foods in moderation.

raw kyle is a perfect example, hes always changing his diet. not to pick on raw kyle

people of this era no longer eat. they eat because its a hobby. there always looking for the new and better diet / lifestyle. i believe in the end it does more harm than good... people who follow this extreme diet are AV, mercola, david wolfe. etc. etc. there always changing and evolving to be on the cutting edge of the diet realm.

a diet of balance, moderation is key. thats my 2 cents. dont worry im leaving this forum, this forum is to extreme for me and i no longer agree with anything on it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 09:24:03 am by Metallica »

Offline Squall

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 09:31:19 am »
thats because RAF is an extreme diet, it wont work and it never will...

RAF is extreme, but radicalism isn't necessarily incorrect thinking. And lets not forget that no diet is perfect. Many people on this forum undoubtedly came here because they've been trying to perfect their nutrition for years now. Some may leave, some may stay. For those that choose to stay, it might be hasty to say that its not working for them. Nutrition isn't an exact science, but what is when you're dealing with living, breathing human beings?

I will be slightly sad to see you go, Metallica. I enjoyed some of your contrarian views. Others were kinda trollish it seems, but every good forum needs some dissent IMO to keep it healthy.

BTW, Michael, I forgot to actually say 'Welcome!'. But I just said it, so we should be cool now, lol.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.

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Satya

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 10:02:40 am »
Quote
a diet of balance, moderation is key. thats my 2 cents. dont worry im leaving this forum, this forum is to extreme for me and i no longer agree with anything on it.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste on assumptions and conditionings.  It takes a brave person to change, try new things, question the establishment.  But then, we are all subject to our environments, culture and whatnot.  The purpose of this group is to share information about raw food diets, whether or not they are practiced by the individual.  Questions are great. Debates rock.  Knocking raw foods in every single post shows ulterior motives.

Good luck to you, but let's be honest:  You never did agree with this diet.  You came to the group to troll and post antagonistic ideas without ever thinking of changing.  We moderators were waiting for the personal attacks to commence, as troll behavior is just so predictable.  I hope you can find more constructive things to do with your time in the future. 

« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 11:03:30 am by Satya »

Satya

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 10:15:10 am »
Quote
david wolfe. etc. etc. there always changing and evolving to be on the cutting edge of the diet realm.

Hey anyone: Does David Wolfe eat raw animals now?  I thought he was vegan.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 10:40:30 am by Satya »

Satya

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 10:39:08 am »
Although I am very committed to my dietary choices, I do feel that it's important not to become obsessive and, like you, also eat 'good' cooked food sometimes due to social pressures.  I do my best to keep this to an absolute minimum - maybe a couple of times a month or so.

Michael, you are more advanced on this diet than I am, but I too like to be flexible.  I suppose if I had health issues, I might be more inclined to obsess or stay on whatever helped the healing.  However, I do notice that the lowering of fruits and vegetables has made eating raw more important and easier somehow.  Perhaps this is because too much cooked meat is heavy.  Or maybe it is the carbs or something.  Either way, I sleep better and perform better.  You see, I am a taekwondo bo dan (which means black belt in waiting).  I take a 2.5 hour intense practical and a short written test in a little over a fortnight.  I noticed tonight in class that my flying snap kick was higher than normal.  And in my 40s, that is saying a lot.  I notice that the more raw beef and fish I eat, the better I feel.

Please do write more about what you are doing in the near future.  Any sport or fitness protocol?  You have mentioned health issues.  Please consider posting on the public or the members only health forum, depending on your comfort level.  And do see the "display your culinary creations" forum for ideas about foods.  Sully, Lex and I are the only ones to post photographs of our foods I think (big hint to others in that regard).  As one of the few women here, I have been most active in that particular place.  ;)

Finally, I must apologize for the negative remarks about raw diets that have been posted in this thread by another.  Unfortunate that; but then, life is never perfect.  Must roll with the punches and all that. 

Obviously, you have endured for many years on an RAF diet.  I too was veg and vegan before, but somehow managed to keep major health problems at bay.  BTW, I did live in Suffolk near Newmarket for a year, and I would love to return to the UK someday.  Beautiful places from Dover to Land's End to Hunstanton to Great Yarmouth.  And that with Oxford and Cambridge and Stonehenge between is the extent of my adventure there.  I do have relations in Aberdeen I never did meet.  Another day, perhaps.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 10:43:01 am by Satya »

xylothrill

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 10:51:46 am »
Welcome Michael!

Sorry this had to happen in your intro thread - to a brand new member.

Craig

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 07:58:51 pm »
I eat:-  (all raw) wildcaught oysters(in large amounts), wild mallard duck,wild hare carcasses(very regularly), raw mussels, scallops, live lobster/live crab(well I kill them after purchase), swordfish, free-range turkey breast-fillets, organ-meats(tongue, liver, kidney, heart, suet, marrow) from lamb and beef, mainly. Also I get other muscle-meats in the form of leg of lamb(mutton is much fattier and much better, IMO, as well as cheaper than lamb), venison(when in season), grassfed horsemeat(while abroad in Italy, you can't get hold of it in the UK, except cooked in a few restaurants, imported from abroad).


Re fruits:- I do far better on berries than on other fruits, primarily blueberries and rapsberries. I go for strawberries but have to limit consumption as they are too high in sugar. I also go in for cherries, and watermelon when I'm in Italy. Fruits are either organic or from farmers' markets where they are as good as organic, in my view, re taste. I limit fruit-consumption, but eat more of it if quality meats are unavailable.

Re eggs/honey/dairy:- Have avoided dairy for years, limit eggs and honey(I only eat heather honeycomb as liquid honey gives me a very nasty reaction, and only honeycomb is gauranteed raw in the UK(unless it's in a bottle with liquid honey).

Re brix:- I've become more interested in brix, in recent times. Unfortunately, there's so little brix-related info on the web, and almost nothing UK-related. I compromise by going in for wild meats/wildcaught seafood as much as possible as I know that these are of high quality.

Re Slankers':- I talked about this grassfed issue with the London Farmers' Market Organisers via e-mail, and they seemed to be of the opinion that organic producers don't feed their cattle with anywhere near as much grain as the non-grassfeeding farmers in the US, so that it didn't matter. What a stupid notion! As a result, many farmers "finish" their cattle on barley and soy. Fortunately, they are so stupidly proud of this fact that they reveal this pretty quickly when I ask re what the animals are fed on, at which point I usually say "sorry, I want 100% grassfed", only. Sheep(lamb/mutton) are the only ones that are guaranteed to either be mostly or wholly-grassfed.


Re yahoo group:- Yes, I'm Geoff, and you must be Michael Fitzgerald? I'm having similiar problems, though the LFM markets allow me to get round some issues. I've mentioned on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, how more and more UK farmers aren't bothering to sell organ-meats - one or two, after others lied  to me about the abattoirs forcibly throwing away the organ-meats,  finally admitted to me that they now, legally, have to be inspected by an expensive EU-sponsored vetting agency, in order to comply with EU regulations, plus they still have to pay the government inspectors to check their meats as well, so, since they have to pay per hour, they don't bother having the organ-meats inspected, and just  sell the muscle-meats, throwing the organs away - this is because there's not much public demand for organ-meats as they're thought to taste "yucky" by Standard(cooked-) Dieters.

My suggestions are the following:- get hold of very fatty 100% grassfed meats like mutton(it's seasonal, so get lamb outside that period), find wild game but try to get it cheap(farmers are the most frequent hunters). I take it that farmers' markets are either useless or nonexistent in your area?

Avoid pork as much as possible. Due to stupid myths re pigs being dirty and eating garbage(they're actually very clean when not shoved into disgusting battery-farms by humans), pigs are reputedly fed on grain-diets, according to government regulations. There are pasture-fed pigs in the USA, but I'd be surprised to find any here, except on very small farms.

You could also look into alternatives such as saltmarsh-fed lamb/saltmarsh-fed cattle/heather-fed lamb etc. They're expensive, often originating from farms  in Scotland or Wales, but these will be superior to most so-called grassfed meats sold in the UK.

Re adrenals/thyroid:- I tried for years to get hold of them, with no luck. When I asked my farmers to inquire at the abattoir, they mentioned that the abattoir-people just moronically laughed off the demand as a joke. I finally settled for Dr Ron's hugely expensive supplements which are one of the few which seem to be minus trans-fats/preservatives like magnesium-stearate:-

http://www.drrons.com/


Another poster has suggested this site as being comparable:-

http://www.tahomadispensary.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=1139!91

Re organ-meats in general other than the above glands:- I'm afraid you'll just have to keep searching on Google. Like you said, most truly reliable grassfed meat suppliers stick to muscle-meats.

I used to get my grassfed suet/marrow(in quite large amounts) from Lower Hurst Farm:-
http://www.lowerhurstfarm.co.uk/lower_hurst_farm_shop.htm

 I think(?) I annoyed them as I was their only customer and didn't order the suet/marrow regularly enough, so they claimed to only deliver locally, after delivering them for some time. You might have better luck(don't mention my name!) - on the other hand, they may have been telling the truth. One warning, while this doesn't apply to Lower Hurst, most suet sold in the UK, even from grassfed animals, will come from kidney-fat, which is the fat with the least amount of omega-3 fatty-acids.  Yellow, omega-3-rich hide-fat is very difficult to find as EU regulations force UK grassfed farmers to slaughter their cattle after 30 months, which isn't enough time for grassfed cattle to build up sufficient fats(only grainfed cattle can easily build that much fat in that time, which is another reason for banning all such EU regulation). Marrow might be a better option(if you check with prey-model UK-based groups, you should be able to find some raw organ-meats for dogs that is of good enough quality for human consumption(dogs have to be fed organs on prey model diets) - people like Lex in the US go in for such alternatives as the quality is just as good and is so cheap.

Here are some UK organic food directories which might be useful(I think you're already a member of rawpaleodiet, so you just have to be signed into Yahoo groups to read this):-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/links/Sources_of_Organic_M_001141424689/

I'm afraid my current source of marrow/suet is so limited, even for me as an individual, that I can't divulge the source, as then I would get nothing!

*I've heard that a very good-quality 100% grassfed source is "Wild Beef". They appear in Borough Market. I hope that this is the right website - they may sell organs such as suet/marrow:-
http://www.meatdartmoor.co.uk/wild_beef.htm

The key thing re 100% grassfed meat is to search every conceivable website(especially in less urban  areas such as scotland and wales) and look for any details re the animals being kept outdoors all year round. That's about the only guarantee one can have re 100% grassfed, as it's quite common for some farmers to lie if they realise that 100% grassfed is what you're looking for.


*Don't bother with the Weston-Price chapter in the UK. I enquired there, and the guy had no clue re grassfed meats and only knew a bit about how to find raw dairy - useless by comparison to the WAPF chapters in the USA.*

Re Candida:- That's a tough condition to have. I'd suggest finding info from those on this forum who've had Candida. It's very difficult to get rid of and takes years.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 08:10:48 pm by TylerDurden »
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coconinoz

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 12:32:34 am »


"Avoid pork as much as possible. Due to stupid myths re pigs being dirty and eating garbage(they're actually very clean when not shoved into disgusting battery-farms by humans), pigs are reputedly fed on grain-diets, according to government regulations. There are pasture-fed pigs in the USA, but I'd be surprised to find any here, except on very small farms."

the way i look at it, the appropriateness of the food is relative to the species

birds, for instance, are seed eaters; so to feed corn & soy to chicken would be ok or not too off -- but, of course, birds also like & need worms, bugs, dirt if/when living in their natural habitat

ruminants (cattle, sheep, goats, deer, camels, etc.) are mostly herbivores, whether grazers (cow, lamb) or browsers (goat, deer, camel); of course they also enjoy the occasional bug or dirt if/when living in their natural habitat
the ruminant digestive system is neither meant or adapted to eating grains such as corn, soy, wheat, barley or to eating such concoctions as blood meal, urea, antibiotics, chewing gum, chicken feathers, etc.

now, unlike ruminants, pigs are omnivores
in other words, the pig digestive system is meant & adapted to deal with grass, grains, bugs, roots, mud, stool, truffles... even their own offspring in extreme cases of desperation: they are naturally equipped with whatever it takes to digest all those things & thereby grow & maintain healthy bodies -- if/when living in their natural habitat, that is
also, unlike ruminants again, pigs do not have multiple stomachs containing anaerobic microorganisms that hydrogenate (saturate) naturally unsaturated fats (mufa & pufa)
also, pigs are supposed to be more intelligent than cows & sheep; they even have some sort of language

« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 12:35:00 am by coconinoz »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 01:16:38 am »


"Avoid pork as much as possible. Due to stupid myths re pigs being dirty and eating garbage(they're actually very clean when not shoved into disgusting battery-farms by humans), pigs are reputedly fed on grain-diets, according to government regulations. There are pasture-fed pigs in the USA, but I'd be surprised to find any here, except on very small farms."

the way i look at it, the appropriateness of the food is relative to the species

birds, for instance, are seed eaters; so to feed corn & soy to chicken would be ok or not too off -- but, of course, birds also like & need worms, bugs, dirt if/when living in their natural habitat

ruminants (cattle, sheep, goats, deer, camels, etc.) are mostly herbivores, whether grazers (cow, lamb) or browsers (goat, deer, camel); of course they also enjoy the occasional bug or dirt if/when living in their natural habitat
the ruminant digestive system is neither meant or adapted to eating grains such as corn, soy, wheat, barley or to eating such concoctions as blood meal, urea, antibiotics, chewing gum, chicken feathers, etc.

now, unlike ruminants, pigs are omnivores
in other words, the pig digestive system is meant & adapted to deal with grass, grains, bugs, roots, mud, stool, truffles... even their own offspring in extreme cases of desperation: they are naturally equipped with whatever it takes to digest all those things & thereby grow & maintain healthy bodies -- if/when living in their natural habitat, that is
also, unlike ruminants again, pigs do not have multiple stomachs containing anaerobic microorganisms that hydrogenate (saturate) naturally unsaturated fats (mufa & pufa)
also, pigs are supposed to be more intelligent than cows & sheep; they even have some sort of language



Yes, pigs are the most intelligent of domesticated animals(more intelligent than dogs, incidentally).

However, the problem is that both jungle fowl and feral pigs/wild-boar in the wild have far more varied diets than the (usually) 100% grain diets that domesticated chickens and pigs  invariably get from farmers. Wild boar-meat, as a result of the boars eating insects,roots, tubers and small mammals/reptiles, has a far better taste than pork from domesticated pigs - I say this from past experience. Never tasted raw jungle fowl, but I have eaten raw wild mallard duck and, again, the taste is far superior to the meat from domesticated free-range Aylesbury ducks. All these extra foods in the diet of these animals  add micronutrients which make all the difference re health.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Michael

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 05:41:20 am »
Wow!  I wasn't expecting such a welcome but thanks and hello to you all!  Thanks for all sharing details of your diets, comments and advice.  I apologise now if I don't cover everyone's kind replies.

No problem re: Metallica's comments.  It's unfortunate that Metallica feels that way and that he expresses his feelings in such a negative manner.  But, I can understand his personal need for finding balance.  It's certainly not going to deter anybody on this forum from continuing their dietary exploration.  People who have made their way here through their own experiences, determination and motivation.  It's a shame that he sees it as being 'extreme' and cannot recognise it as being a search for the 'truth' amongst a sea of modern dietary myth and confusion.  Satya & Craig, I agree with you both too in that questions and debates are healthy for the forum.  Perhaps Metallica's intentions were good but his communication delivery lacking in subtlety and thoughtfulness.

Boxcarguy, Squall, Craig
Thanks for the welcome and an example of the kind of things you're eating. This is all very useful to me as I hone my own diet.

Satya
Good luck with your black belt grading. That's all very impressive!  You are clearly thriving on the diet and it's nice to hear.  When I find the time, I will elaborate on my own experiences as you mentioned as I certainly enjoy reading others backgrounds and experiences.  I'll check out those culinary creations too - thanks!
Hey, that's amazing to hear that you've travelled around England and stayed in Suffolk! I lived in Suffolk for a while and am still nearby in Norwich, Norfolk. You're right - it's a beautiful area with some wonderful countryside and heritage coastline on the doorstep. I've mainly lived in Essex & London previously.  If you do ever make it over here again it'd be great to meet up and share some food!  I spent 6 months backpacking round Canada and the US myself about 10yrs ago which was quite an adventure.  In the US I visited Oregon, California, Arizona, Nth/Sth Dakota. I'd certainly like to go back sometime and with my difficulty obtaining 100% grass-fed meat/organs/fats it may be sooner than I think!!! :)

Geoff
Thanks for your extensive reply and all of your advice and tips! You're right, I am Michael Fitzgerald. Good to 'speak' with you again! :)
You seem to have advanced your diet quite extensively since we last communicated and I am very impressed with your general diet and health gains.  I still have some work to do - clearly!  I totally respect your desire not to share your source of suet etc.  I was the same with my raw butter source originally (though I barely eat it myself now and intend on cutting it out totally when I can find a suitable fat replacement).
By the sounds of it, I need to also adjust my approach in my search for 100% grass-fed and add a degree of subtlety when questioning farmers.  I'm sure that it will eventually become more readily available here in the same way some of the other foods have done - as the knowledge & awareness grows it will create a serviceable and profitable market for farmers.
Thanks for the advice on sourcing some of these specialist foods.  I agree, it is the organs and fats that are the most difficult to obtain. As you said, there's not much of a market=incentive for the farmers.  As you correctly surmised, the farmers markets in my area are virtually non-existent and poor quality.  So, the search goes on.  I think I've got the beef covered at least and am still searching for good lamb and mutton.  At the moment I'm just buying the best quality I can but it is fed grain I believe.  I'm supplementing Omega 3's with Blue Ice fermented CLO (unheated). Organs, marrow and suet are proving impossible! I thought I'd found it with the Well Hung Meat Company but after confirming the feeding practices & placing my order it turned out that they no longer can do the suet because.....

"There is some legislation involved in the sale of suet nowadays whereby it is removed from the animal at the abbatoir and does not actually come to us.  It is a complicated issue (which our butcher) did try and explain to me but the long and short of it is that we are not able to get hold of beef suet.  The closest alternative we may be able to offer (in the future) is beef dripping, but this is dependent upon us sourcing in the suitable machinery to produce this.  I will keep you informed on progress."

Obviously, I don't want the dripping!  I will try the link you kindly posted for suet/marrow from Lower Hurst Farm.  I'll let you know if I have any luck with them.  I'm still waiting to hear back from one or two other places I've contacted that seem to have potential.

The problem is also financial as I can't possibly afford regular wild venison, oysters or high-quality 100% grass-fed lamb/mutton deliveries. I'm starting University as a mature student on Monday to study Biological Sciences so it's back to being poor!   :'(

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2008, 06:24:47 pm »
There's a farm called Layer Marney farm, which seems alright:-

http://www.layermarneylamb.co.uk/

 They should do delivery(£9 per delivery is the usual charge for any package). I've seen them at farmers' markets. A whole leg of lamb is 18 pounds, a whole leg of mutton is c.13 to 14 pounds. Not bad, IMO - that's 1 to 2 days worth of food, depending on your appetite, and quite fatty, especially in the case of mutton.

Re raw butter:- I would suggest using raw eggs instead. One can't seem to get fertilised eggs in the UK, so you might want to heed the warnings by some RPDers re avidin, so you may want  to throw away most of the egg-white.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 06:26:50 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline wodgina

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2008, 06:31:21 pm »
you know i'm also very protective of my fat sources, it took a lot of work to find them and build up a re pore. I say that if 10 people started Raw Paleo I would be worried about competition for my source.

I'm  the first RPD'er in this city as far as I know. I've heard fleetly of some primal's but no solid followers.

I like it that way!
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Offline Michael

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2008, 04:22:01 am »
Thanks Geoff.  Layer Marney does look good.  Incredibly they're relatively local too.  I grew up in Essex so I know the area well.  I will contact them to try to divulge further feed information such as what they're fed during the housed period between Jan - March.  I also came across another place which looks really good and it's cycling distance from me!  I'm waiting to hear back from them by email but if I get a chance will try to visit this weekend.  See what you think of Brecks Farm here: http://www.back-to-the-garden.co.uk/

On the subject of eating lamb in general and you mentioning buying a whole leg - how do you go about eating it? Most lamb cuts seem to be so fatty! I've only ever eaten cutlets or meaty chops.  Do you eat all of that fat too?!  I've always had a real problem eating the meat fat on the organic beef I buy as it, literally, makes me gag. 

Interestingly though, I had my 1st delivery from the Well Hung Meat Company today and have eaten 1/2kg of their braising steak tonight including the extensive amount of surrounding fat.  It didn't make me gag at all and was actually quite nice!  The meat tasted so different to what I've been used to as well.  As I'd read about grass-fed, the muscle meat itself was quite a strong, gamey taste.  Evidence perhaps of their commitment to being grain free!

re: butter - I certainly intend on excluding it from my diet eventually. It's so rare that I have any now that I have virtually excluded it by default! But, I am concerned about my low fat intake.  If I had a reliable source (or any source for that matter!) of suet and marrow then the butter would be history.  An interesting thought about simply using egg yolks though.  As you say, certainly fertilised eggs are unheard of in the UK.  In what way does this alter the avidin argument, however?  I'd be very interested to hear your further comments about that.

wodgina6722  I know exactly where you're coming from!  The worst thing I ever did was introduce a couple of good friends to the primal diet. My butter, cream and honey supply was suddenly reduced by 66% !!!!  :o  Still, taking a more selfless view my actions did help improve their lives & health dramatically.  I'm a little less generous with my sources these days though!  :)
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2008, 05:43:51 am »
Thanks Geoff.  Layer Marney does look good.  Incredibly they're relatively local too.  I grew up in Essex so I know the area well.  I will contact them to try to divulge further feed information such as what they're fed during the housed period between Jan - March.  I also came across another place which looks really good and it's cycling distance from me!  I'm waiting to hear back from them by email but if I get a chance will try to visit this weekend.  See what you think of Brecks Farm here: http://www.back-to-the-garden.co.uk/

On the subject of eating lamb in general and you mentioning buying a whole leg - how do you go about eating it? Most lamb cuts seem to be so fatty! I've only ever eaten cutlets or meaty chops.  Do you eat all of that fat too?!  I've always had a real problem eating the meat fat on the organic beef I buy as it, literally, makes me gag. 

Interestingly though, I had my 1st delivery from the Well Hung Meat Company today and have eaten 1/2kg of their braising steak tonight including the extensive amount of surrounding fat.  It didn't make me gag at all and was actually quite nice!  The meat tasted so different to what I've been used to as well.  As I'd read about grass-fed, the muscle meat itself was quite a strong, gamey taste.  Evidence perhaps of their commitment to being grain free!

re: butter - I certainly intend on excluding it from my diet eventually. It's so rare that I have any now that I have virtually excluded it by default! But, I am concerned about my low fat intake.  If I had a reliable source (or any source for that matter!) of suet and marrow then the butter would be history.  An interesting thought about simply using egg yolks though.  As you say, certainly fertilised eggs are unheard of in the UK.  In what way does this alter the avidin argument, however?  I'd be very interested to hear your further comments about that.

wodgina6722  I know exactly where you're coming from!  The worst thing I ever did was introduce a couple of good friends to the primal diet. My butter, cream and honey supply was suddenly reduced by 66% !!!!  :o  Still, taking a more selfless view my actions did help improve their lives & health dramatically.  I'm a little less generous with my sources these days though!  :)

The Brecks farm sounds good. But, still, I've heard horror-stories from 1 or 2 Brits about being told by the farmer that their animals were 100% grassfed only for them to read a brochure which stated that the animals were, in fact, fed some grain etc. Always good to check, first, then to evaluate the product - in my own case, I came across one very dodgy farmer who sold (lightly-pasteurised) dairy as raw(quite common in the UK, as the raw dairy industry is so unregulated) - his suet was also much poorer in taste compared to the high-quality suet I later got from Lower Hurst Farm, so I knew I had been had.

Re lamb-fat:- When I first started the diet, I found it impossible to carry on with it, without turning to wildcaught fish and shellfish. The taste of intensively-farmed grainfed meats was just too disgusting in raw form. The taste of less intensively-farmed organic grainfed meat (such as what I found in Italy at one point) was much better, but it was still so bland that I took no enjoyment in my food and my appetite went right down - fortunately, I found grassfed sources at the LFM markets, so that was fine.

The fat from the Layer Marney leg of lamb/mutton has an excellent taste(though I have to use my teeth to get the last bits of flesh/fat off which is awkward). Other types of white fat such as that onm the beef-hearts I get isn't nearly as good in taste, by comparison.

Re avidin:- Some rawists have claimed that you only get biotin deficiency if you eat the equivalent of 24 raw eggs a day, including the egg-white. Others have claimed that it's better to just eat the egg-yolk as they cite potential side-effects re biotin-deficiency. It's difficult to say, but perhaps one should err on the side of caution, given the lack of fertilised, raw eggs in the UK. Besides, eggs are unlikely to have been a staple of the Palaeolithic Diet given that wild birds generally only lay seasonally, rather than every day like chickens, and in relatively inaccessible areas. I view eggs as only a substitute for not getting other better fats.

Re fat:- The key is to get all those omega-3s. If that means that you have to get them from muscle-meat fat, because you can't get hold of suet/marrow, that's not the end of the world. Just tell the farmers NOT to cut away the fat from the meats, as they usually do before the sale/delivery. Then you'll have lots more available, without needing the suet/marrow. Liver, kidney and tongue are the easiest organ-meats to get hold of and should be available if you keep on Googling and asking farmers - beef-tongue is a lot easier to get hold of than suet or marrow, and is a hefty 50-60% fat, I forget the exact figure. One tip:- I've noticed that I'm far more likely to get a response from farmers if I contact them by phone rather than e-mail.

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline wodgina

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2008, 07:09:45 am »
Hey Geoff

I'm starting to get the feeling that you believe hide fat is better than suet. I'm open to the idea also, where did you get the info that hide fat has more omega 3. Suet seams to be prized by weston price primitives but I'm guessing hide fat was too.

I would love to just have a huge supply of ox tongue, that fat is special IMO I have no evidence though...
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2008, 06:15:08 pm »
Hey Geoff

I'm starting to get the feeling that you believe hide fat is better than suet. I'm open to the idea also, where did you get the info that hide fat has more omega 3. Suet seams to be prized by weston price primitives but I'm guessing hide fat was too.

I would love to just have a huge supply of ox tongue, that fat is special IMO I have no evidence though...

Either Lex or Gary(Via) mentioned this point re suet from the kidney area being far more saturated than fat elsewhere - since that kind of suet is what is usually on offer, that's not so good. Large amounts of hide-fat are very difficult to get hold of unless you live in a region where cattle are kept beyond the 30-month-slaughtering-limit imposed by the EU.

I also wish I could get a regular supply of tongue, but there's just no demand for it. I actually think that if we all started banding together into local,raw animal food cooperatives like some Primal Dieters do in the States then we would have enough financial muscle-power to get farmers to give us whatever organ-meats we want.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline wodgina

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2008, 07:42:26 pm »


I also wish I could get a regular supply of tongue, but there's just no demand for it. I actually think that if we all started banding together into local,raw animal food cooperatives like some Primal Dieters do in the States then we would have enough financial muscle-power to get farmers to give us whatever organ-meats we want.

I would love to get something like that organised but it's a bit lonely for RAF'ers in my neck of the woods. Good samaritans the closest! The amount of London people will start to grow for sure? there seems to be a few. It will happen, I would move to London if it did, just for the summer though!


 
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to forum - Hello
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2008, 10:11:54 pm »
I would love to get something like that organised but it's a bit lonely for RAF'ers in my neck of the woods. Good samaritans the closest! The amount of London people will start to grow for sure? there seems to be a few. It will happen, I would move to London if it did, just for the summer though!

The truth is that there are a lot more raw-animal-foodists in  the UK(and elsewhere) than you might imagine. Trouble is that most people on any Internet forums rarely bother posting even once, just reading the posts, so it's impossible to identify them all, let alone those RAFers who never both going online at all - I keep on hearing vaguely from people like Jon C Fox about how they get large numbers of orders from the UK for Aajonus' books, for example, and I notice, sometimes, that someone's put "_uk" or similiar in their username when looking at the group-lists of usernames.
. There's a Yahoo group called "livefoodoz"(search under "aajonus" on Yahoo Groups, and scroll down), plus there are a few mentions online Re Australian "Instinctos' who eat a little raw animal food, usually.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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