Author Topic: Thoughts of the Day.........  (Read 7131 times)

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Offline Tsurugi_Oni

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Thoughts of the Day.........
« on: July 20, 2011, 12:35:28 pm »
  In nature dogs are largely carnivorous. 

  Dogs have big sharp teeth and a shorter digestive track.  Vegans say that they can feed dogs a vegan diet and make it healthier than omnivorous or carnivorous ones. 

  Vegans even claim that they can feed cats a supplemented vegan diet and have them be extraordinarily healthy.

  Pandas have a carnivorous digestive system and teeth yet live off bamboo. 

  Chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters yet they hunt for meat and eat it. 

  You claim to turn an obligate carnivore into a healthy vegan, what makes you think you can't turn a "vegan" (human) into a healthy carnivore??? 

Offline ys

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 11:21:02 pm »
dogs are not obligate carnivores.  it is true in the wild they are mostly carnivorous yet their system can handle plant matter just fine for long period of time.  it may not be optimal but it won't kill them right away.  cat's system on the other hand cannot handle plant matter making them obligate carnivores.  dogs digestion is closer to bears who are omnivores (excluding pandas and polar bears).  there is wolf species in amazon that eats fruits when in season, seen it on national geo.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 12:56:33 am »
Ah TO - the old questions. How do you know that pandas eat bamboo? Because we have seen them doing this in the wild. I don't know if any zoo has ever tried to raise a panda on anything except for bamboo. If you put dogs and cats for generations in the wild, they will gravitate primarily to certain foods. Dogs in the wild mostly kill other animals to eat. Yes, both dogs and cats can survive on modern pet foods and live for a long time that include many things besides flesh foods. Dogs that eat lots of grains often end up with enlarged hearts and stones. I healed a rescue dog up from this with a raw meat diet.

Take any a dog (who has experienced raw meat) and put a piece of raw liver on one paper plate and a piece of fruit on the other plate and let the dog choose, the liver would be gone, probably along with the paper plate it was on, before the fruit was touched and the fruit might never get touched at all unless the dog was starving.... and yet.... some rare dogs will go for the fruit first. 

With humans it is very different. Society, supermarkets, complex emotional and intellectual processes around food. The best that can be done is to put those two plates in front of you and try to let go the best you can and try to feel which raw platter your body wants. If you can't do that, and you are too socialized and un-in-touch, then you have to figure it out the same way you would if you were logically trying to figure out what the natural diet of a dog is. See if you can find any humans in the wild to observe. The best thing in my opinion, is to be able to get in touch with the place inside of yourself that just knows which plate it wants - like the dog. For humans it is more complex, because we have thoughts about the food on how it will make us feel not only physically, but emotionally and spiritually as well. Put raw meat one of the plates you are choosing from and some people (always - having experienced it first so they know it food and how it makes them feel) will not want the meat and others will feel drawn to it. But if you can't sense which one your body needs without all your social conditioning - then there are dudes like Weston A. Price etc. to help you to try to figure it out. Sometimes we just have to get cleared out of our old patterns long enough.

Of course - the key point is that it would have to be raw. No other animal cooks. Cooking changes the whole thing. It's just too hard to figure out what you would be grabbing and eating generally in the wild when you bring cooking into the equation. I'm not judging cooking in any way - just putting forth - that if you want a baseline of what basic food groups your species and your own body is drawn the most to - cooking will gum up the experiment.



Offline Tsurugi_Oni

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 12:58:29 am »
  Yes kitties need the taurine.

  You're probably thinking of the Maned Wolf which ain't really a forest critter as far as I'm aware.  Up to 50% of their diet can be fruit at times.  They have pure carnivorous dentation.

Offline ys

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 01:07:40 am »
Quote
You're probably thinking of the Maned Wolf which ain't really a forest critter as far as I'm aware.

yeah, that's the one.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 03:23:16 am »
cat's system on the other hand cannot handle plant matter... 

Plenty of cats choose to eat grass and leaves. Both of the cats that I owned ate grass.  They didn't eat it as the majority of their diet, but I definitely saw them eating it from time to time.

Not that I'm arguing for a vegan diet---veganism has the tendency to cause severe brain problems, over a long period of time, even when the diet is balanced. I don't think the diet is impossible...but it's like balancing on a tightrope over a large canyon.  One wrong move, and you're in serious trouble. More specifically, if a vegan diet is missing some vital nutrient, that deficiency creeps up slowly and causes serious, hard-to-repair damage.  The gradual, slow nature of the defiency is what makes it dangerous.

Offline KD

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 03:49:00 am »
Right even Fred Bisci, 40+ year raw vegan foodist. believes dogs need raw meat to be healthy...but that they will survive without it. Obviously its the case with humans too; surviving based in principles as opposed to being absolutely healthy. Some vegans don't really care about such..and I think that is a fine way to live if they arn't preaching about its health merits or its superiority in restoring health..which is a bigger biggie.

The problem with vegans (and some other raw/alt food types) is they begin to re-define basic markers for health for themselves (and I guess their pets).

Its a mistake to associate mere existence on planet earth - while doing something 'radical' - with health. Sounds kind of ridiculous but you see it all the time: so and so has been dong this for x years..without any assessment as to what their health is objectively or how people eating absolute crap clearly look better and enjoy their health more.


Offline Dorothy

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2011, 04:35:05 am »
Hi KD - Let's just hope I've been a decent tight rope walker even though I'm afraid of heights. Brain damage - eeks! lol.

One of the things that I appreciate about being human is that we don't always make decisions based on our own needs - even our own health or survival. And I agree - I have noticed so much denial. When vegans say that dogs are better off vegan it blows my mind. What is that about? I think they really want dogs but can't deal with meat so try to make dogs into vegans skewing logic any way they can.  I say -  Get a bird instead!

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2011, 04:55:15 am »
Hi KD - Let's just hope I've been a decent tight rope walker even though I'm afraid of heights. Brain damage - eeks! lol.

See - I wrote KD instead of Cherimoya - I has to be brain damage! On nooooooooo.  :D

Offline Neone

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2011, 05:38:17 am »
Now im not sure about this, but they use rats to simulate humans in the lab, so i image that we are pretty similar in many regards?

So how come i only ever hear men comparing themselves to wolves, and that they should eat like wolves, and never to eat like a rat would?

How come nobody here brags about eating a 'rats diet' ?

haha.
That's not paleo.

Offline p0wer

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 06:44:18 am »
Plenty of cats choose to eat grass and leaves. Both of the cats that I owned ate grass.  They didn't eat it as the majority of their diet, but I definitely saw them eating it from time to time.

Yes all my cats as well, but usually they throw it up later. I've also noticed the dogs doing the same occasionally. My father was saying they're cleaning their digestive systems.

More specifically, if a vegan diet is missing some vital nutrient, that deficiency creeps up slowly and causes serious, hard-to-repair damage.  The gradual, slow nature of the defiency is what makes it dangerous.

I'm trying to explain this to some friends that have recently decided to go vegan, but it just doesn't work. Their arguments usually are "I feel fine, blood tests are great, I take B12", and so on. We've always been omnivore (veganism is a pretty new thing), who knows what else besides B12 you might be missing by avoiding animal foods.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 07:27:57 am »
pOwer you make a very good point. I've seen so many new things come and go that are considered to be vital to health - new discoveries all the time. The opposite of that is true though and there are lots of people that have gone decades upon decades being fine on vegan or vegetarian diet (and according to Gabriel Cousens whole cultures) - so - what I keep on returning to in my mind is that we might not all be the same. Maybe in the old, old, old days some of the gatherers didn't share as much of what they got because that meat looked so stanky. They would eat one berry and put one in the basket to share; eat two berries and put one in the basket to take back to the hunters etc. Some of the hunters might have been chewing as they walked home so they wouldn't have to eat so many of those darn berries - I mean after all they just chased down an animal - the were probably HUNGRY! Some people might have eaten much more meat and others many more berries. Maybe that's why there are even cartoons with a man with a big steak with just a piece of parsley on top and a woman with a salad glowering at the man's steak in disapproval. What IS pretty new though I would think is the idea to completely exclude entire food groups. That's what I've been thinking about lately anyway.

Maybe the gatherers thought more of themselves as rodents.... I link myself to the bunny and my husband links himself to the bear energy etc. There are people on the vegetarian sites that adore rats and link themselves to that energy. The ones that went a hunting are the wolves and the tigers..... and this place is filled with hunters! 

But maybe I should be careful saying that I'm a bunny here. I mean - Paleophil and Tsurugi Oni and all the other hunters have been very kind to me so I'm assuming the rest of you might be cool having a bunny hanging out in the wolf pack? 

Offline KD

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2011, 07:47:24 am »

How come nobody here brags about eating a 'rats diet' ?

haha.

that same vegan practitioner I mentioned also has this quirky saying that if people just ate rats (nyc rats) and lettuce they would be healthier than most people. sort of the 'leaving out all the crap' model of health restoration. I don't agree entirely but its probably better than some vegan diets....economical to boot. rat jerky.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 07:58:59 am »
Don't laugh too hard. There have been a good many homeless that have lived off of rats and pigeons in NY.  :o 
And Wildman Steve Brill lives off the greens in Central Park!


Offline Ioanna

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 08:21:44 am »
Yes all my cats as well, but usually they throw it up later. I've also noticed the dogs doing the same occasionally. My father was saying they're cleaning their digestive systems.


my dog eats grass as well, but she either throws it up or it pass thru... either way it comes out just as it went in. 

she doesn't seem to want any other fruit or veg tho.  she'll stand at my side (ie. hopefully for a scrap) when she hears me in the kitchen cutting something.  she takes what i give her, runs to her blanket and if it's meat then she'll eat it, but if it's a piece of fruit or veg she just leaves it on her blanket.

one weird story...  my mom has a cat that loves zucchini!!!  whenever my mom is cooking zucchini (she warms it in a frying pan and puts in on sandwiches or pasta), one of her cats comes mewing and runs for anything that falls on the floor.  the other cat has no desire for the zucchini. 

Offline KD

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 11:20:27 am »
Don't laugh too hard. There have been a good many homeless that have lived off of rats and pigeons in NY.  :o 
And Wildman Steve Brill lives off the greens in Central Park!




haha, yeah I think there was a discussion here on homeless once. I personally have met some street people in NYC and Miami in particular that were very fit and seemingly quite well by most standards. Very tan and carefree anyway. Quite a few of the NYC homeless have gym/pool memberships and belong to the local museums so they can get AC in the summer time and nap in the high art theaters. The original 'dumpster divers'. Can't hurt that they literally can't afford to be lazy gluttons..although likely they end up eating their share of garbage. In florida theres tons coconuts and fish...but probably alot of rum too.

I've met Steve. Quite a character. he lives off sandwiches too but yeah..neat guy.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Thoughts of the Day.........
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 12:23:05 pm »
Ha ha - the sandwiches - of course. But one doesn't get arrested for eating sandwiches in NYC!  :D 

I lived in Florida too - and where I was there was like not ONE homeless person - not a single itty bitty ONE. I did some volunteer work for the "needy" and it seemed like it would be considered a "lovely neighborhood" in NY. I thought to myself that if every person in NY knew that all the homeless were put near the ocean in great housing and taken care of by the churches they would be walking there asap!   But then again - like you said - if they were hanging out with Steve and eating raw pigeons and rats - they were probably better off in NYC!

The hawks are cool aren't they? Hawks living high up on the tallest buildings and hunting pigeons. It's fun to think of the wildlife and nature of Manhattan. 

 

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