Thin/Runny Honey Batch (Honey Pacifica)

[B.Money]

I have been buying cold packed honey from honey pacifica for a little while now and just recently have been getting it shipped in larger bottles to my house. Usually this wildflower honey is very thick, I would be unable to pour it out.

This batch that I just received recently is very runny and readily pours out of the jar. I'm not sure if that is just the way the batch is this summer, or if maybe it got too hot in the UPS truck when being shipped. Its also much darker than usual. I don't know much about this sort of thing so I thought I would ask.

What do you guys think? Any experience with this brand recently, is this normal?

[eveheart]

Did you ever find out why your honey was runny? This season, I've gotten two batches of runny honey from reputable local sources. They tell me the consistency varies by flower source. I'm still skeptical, even though I've been to one of the apiaries and I know for sure the honey is not heated. Maybe somebody here can explain.

[PaleoPhil]

Different plant nectars apparently produce different honeys of different thicknesses. I remember reading about it somewhere, something to do with the moisture content or something. I doubt that all of the makers of raw liquid-type honeys are lying about it. Plus, I know a raw honey maker that sells BOTH thick and liquid raw honeys. Why would they bother with the liquid ones if they weren't truly raw? It seems much more likely that there are different densities of raw honey than that there is a major international raw honey conspiracy.

Usually honey makers and sellers strive for consistency within a particular variety, though. Another potential factor is heat during shipping, if you order honey.

[eveheart]

It seems much more likely that there are different densities of raw honey than that there is a major international raw honey conspiracy.

Thanks for your answer, Phil. I'll quit my cooked-honey-paranoia. Mostly, I was worried that I wasn't asking the right questions when I called the apiary. Next year, I will specify "thick, not runny" when I call around.

[PaleoPhil]

One thing to watch out for is whether they use a centrifuge or not. Aajonus claims that centrifuges heat the honey a bit and I do find that the truly raw honey I get tastes better, though it could be coincidence I suppose, but Aajonus has eaten a lot of honey over the years, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's right. Fermenting seems to be an even bigger plus in my case.

[cherimoya_kid]

I generally only eat honey in the comb, to avoid all possibility of cooked honey.

I do find I can taste the difference between cooked and raw honey.  Cooked honey doesn't produce the same sort of dryness in the mouth.  It's said that raw honey is drying in the body, but cooked honey is not.

[goodsamaritan]

We get thin runny honey from Palawan.  Certified wild and raw.  My wife even met with the owner personally.

[KD]

honey can be certified raw and still be heated...theres quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that. Someone once supplied some info on why even slight heat is bad for honey..and something about how the bees will fan it if outside natural temp gets even in the 90's. So this anti-raw food adage...that some foods in nature obviously get over 105 etc..apparently does not apply to honeys vitality..in compassion to some other foods that supposedly hokd up well to higher heats.

Generally best to stick with comb honeys. Its my understanding that honey is difficult to get into containers without heating somewhat and only a few operations are really doing it. The Really Raw brand supposedly is unheated and that seems to be available most places. Never seemed high quality in comparison to the dark comb I get sometimes..but it seems to be fairly solid usually and not runny. If the honey doesn't specifically say unheated, you can rest assured that it is not truly 'raw'...unless its from a local farmer who doesn't label specifics.

[PaleoPhil]

honey can be certified raw and still be heated...theres quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that.

True, and I'm well aware of the heat from centrifuging honey, but even Aajonus acknowledges that some non-comb honeys can be unheated and uncentrifuged and he personally recommends some of them (such as Really Raw), and truly raw honey can also apparently be liquidy. Why else would the same company sell both liquidy and thick honeys that they claim are both unheated (such as with Heavenly Organics)? Also, thickness doesn't guarantee total rawness, as perhaps you'll agree. I've tried several comb honeys and found that I fared better on raw fermented honey (I'm talking thick honey, not mead, which is an alcoholic beverage), so for me the fermentation aspect seems to be beneficial. Most of the comb honeys I tried were sickeningly sweet and basically inedible for me. Those tend to be light and clear and very liquidy. The best comb honey I tried had some of the darker color that Tyler talks about and was thicker and looked more like what one would expect a honeycomb in the wild to look like, but it was rather expensive and I haven't seen a fermented version of comb honey.

Here is an example of a liquidy honey that the maker claims is unheated:

Our rare, organic, unheated, Wild Forest Honey is collected from wild beehives by traditional groups of tribal honey foragers living in the virgin forestlands of central India. http://www.heavenlyorganics.com/productsho/honey_forest.aspx

They also sell a very thick, dense, creamy unheated honey.

Here's a honey brand I haven't tried whose seller claims their liquid honey is cold processed by hand:
http://simplyrawhoney.com/Simply.Raw.michigan.honey.html

[KD]

True, and I'm well aware of the heat from centrifuging honey, but even Aajonus acknowledges that some non-comb honeys can be unheated and uncentrifuged and he personally recommends some of them (such as Really Raw), and truly raw honey can also apparently be liquidy. Why else would the same company sell both liquidy and thick honeys that they claim are both unheated (such as with Heavenly Organics)? Also, thickness doesn't guarantee total rawness, as perhaps you'll agree. I've tried several comb honeys and found that I fared better on raw fermented honey (I'm talking thick honey, not mead, which is an alcoholic beverage), so for me the fermentation aspect seems to be beneficial. Most of the comb honeys I tried were sickeningly sweet and basically inedible for me. Those tend to be light and clear and very liquidy. The best comb honey I tried had some of the darker color that Tyler talks about and was thicker and looked more like what one would expect a honeycomb in the wild to look like, but it was rather expensive and I haven't seen a fermented version of comb honey.

Here is an example of a liquidy honey that the maker claims is unheated:

They also sell a very thick, dense, creamy unheated honey.

Here's a honey brand I haven't tried whose seller claims their liquid honey is cold processed by hand:
http://simplyrawhoney.com/Simply.Raw.michigan.honey.html

Yeah I wasn't trying to say definitively that liquid = not raw, only that most honeys are indeed heated. I'm not an expert but read betwen the lines on that last one.

"Never heat pasteurized (flash heated to 145 to 160 degF)."

"Always preserve raw honey’s healthful antioxidants, important enzymes, vitamins, anti-microbial constituents, pollen and other beneficial attributes by never heating crystallized above 109 degF for our customers that prefer liquid honey year round."

---

honeycomb is still sugar..nothing magical about it. Never tried the fermented stuff.

personally I can't figure out how one would even get liquid honey into a jar out of a comb, obviously its strained in some way if it doesn't have chunks of stuff in it and unless it says specifically I can only guess they are using heat.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm not an expert but read betwen the lines on that last one.

"Never heat pasteurized (flash heated to 145 to 160 degF)."

Yeah, I'm skeptical about that one too, though they do say "While cold processing the raw honey by hand is time consuming, it ensures honey’s natural goodness is included in every bottle.  We would not have it any other way and neither should you!"

honeycomb is still sugar..nothing magical about it.

Surely you'll agree that it's also more than just pure sugar. Whatever the reason, I fare a lot better when eating raw fermented honey than refined cane sugar, conventional heated honey, mildly heated centrifuged honey, or supposedly truly unheated honey that isn't fermented, with unheated honey being second best (least worst) among those options for me.

personally I can't figure out how one would even get liquid honey into a jar out of a comb, obviously its strained in some way if it doesn't have chunks of stuff in it and unless it says specifically I can only guess they are using heat.

I figure most probably strain it at least a little to get the bee parts out, though some claim to not strain it. From what I've read, they apparently pick out the bee parts. I don't think straining has a bearing on ease of getting it out of the combs. Presumably there are methods that were used before the invention of honey centrifuges, right? This looks like one such method, using an extractor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEmxNDPHBlE

There are even some who claim that centrifuges don't heat the honey, including some beekeepers:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?254815-Raw-fermented-honey-fan&s=91681ebcb09a4e9ebb37e37ae7e9aaa5

This guy uses a hand-cranked extractor, though he uses an electric heated knife to remove the cappings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Eh4Ka_1Bo&NR=1

The cappings are my favorite part of the honeycomb, so it's a shame to me that they tend to be discarded. My ideal honey would probably be fermented honey that includes the cappings, comb and brood of both the honeycomb and broodcomb, at least some of each of the whole lot, preferably heavy on the cappings, and I've heard that the brood are quite tasty too.

Whatever the reason, I do best with the Really Raw fermented honey. Maybe it has nothing to do with the lack of centrifuging, maybe it's just he microbiota, I don't know, but whatever the reason it seems to be better tolerated by me than any other honey I've tried.

[KD]

Yeah, I'm skeptical about that one too, though they do say "While cold processing the raw honey by hand is time consuming, it ensures honey’s natural goodness is included in every bottle.  We would not have it any other way and neither should you!"

right, they say numerous times that they do not heat it for a particular process...but then they mention numerous times about not heating past X etc...that is typical shady type wording people generally should look for. It could be that they do not use heat at all getting their honey from comb to bottle..but doubtful.

---

Surely you'll agree that it's also more than just pure sugar. Whatever the reason, I fare a lot better when eating raw fermented honey than refined cane sugar, conventional heated honey, mildly heated centrifuged honey, or supposedly truly unheated honey that isn't fermented, with unheated honey being second best (least worst) among those options for me.

sorry, what I meant is the comb is just the purest form of honey, but when you get it in its raw form its not necessarily going to work magic and not create symptoms just because it is raw. If you don't have problems with one honey but had problems with others or honeycomb..that they all are sugar and not necessarily a factor of it being raw, not saying that honey is just sugar, without minerals, enzymes and such. Its true that some are very sensitive to whether a honey is truly unheated or not so that wasn't what I was saying either.

certainly Aajonus makes claims that truly unheated honey does not raise insulin? or something similar, but to my knowledge anything that is sweet (other then stevia I believe) is food for fungus and yeast etc..

---

the straining doesn't necessarily imply heating I guess, what I was saying was I don't even know how they get it into a jar, nevermind through a strainer at 65-70 F or so...
I think when i've had the Really Raw brand in the past...I can't pour it already removed at room temp...and being in a comb...

Now that I think of it, the guy that sells me dark almost black honeycomb has liquid clean honey in a jar that he sells as raw. he only sells in the winter but I'll ask him.

[PaleoPhil]

right, they say numerous times that they do not heat it for a particular process...but then they mention numerous times about not heating past X etc...that is typical shady type wording people generally should look for. It could be that they do not use heat at all getting their honey from comb to bottle..but doubtful.

Quite possible, at any rate it's academic because the vids show how you can extract the honey without using heat and I doubt that every honey seller that claims their honey is unheated actually heats it. I suspect that most probably use heated decapping knifes, but that doesn't seem like it would have a big impact, and it does seem to be true that some don't use centrifuges that are alleged to mildly heat the honey. The first video shows that it's possible to use an unheated decapping scraper and thus not have any heating at all besides maybe a teensy bit of heating when the extractor spins the combs around.

sorry, what I meant is the comb is just the purest form of honey, but when you get it in its raw form its not necefssarily going to work magic and not create symptoms just because it is raw. If you don't have problems with one honey but had problems with others or honeycomb..that they all are sugar and not necessarily a factor of it being raw, not saying that honey is just sugar, without minerals, enzymes and such. Its true that some are very sensitive to whether a honey is truly unheated or not so that wasn't what I was saying either.

True and the fermentation seems to be the key factor for me, though it's hard to know for sure.

certainly Aajonus makes claims that truly unheated honey does not raise insulin? or something similar....

Yes I have seen that claim from him, though I haven't found that to be the case for me, but I'm not convinced that a limited amount of blood glucose or insulin spikes are all that unhealthy for most people who don't have pathological insulin resistance.

but to my knowledge anything that is sweet (other then stevia I believe) is food for fungus and yeast etc..

I have found that standard unheated honey increases my dandruff and dry skin, but fermented raw honey has the opposite effect. Eating fermented raw honey has been the most effective thing I've tried for reducing dandruff, better than pine tar shampoo, zinc shampoo, coconut oil and other external treatments. I suspect that the microbiota in the honey kill dandruff-causing yeast, but it's just a guess.

the straining doesn't necessarily imply heating I guess, what I was saying was I don't even know how they get it into a jar, nevermind through a strainer at 65-70 F or so...

The vids show how.

I think when i've had the Really Raw brand in the past...I can't pour it at room temp.

Correct, it looks like most beekeepers for raw brands may use an extractor. Plus, hives may be warmer than room temperature and the honey may thus be more liquid when it's originally extracted than after it's been sitting in a jar for a while and it may also crystallize in the jar, further thickening it. I've noticed that in videos showing hunter gatherers and chimps getting honey and honeycomb from hives and eating it, that the honey is rather liquid in the wild hive. It tends to drip from the combs as HGs eat it and it gets their hands messy. It also is liquid enough so that chimps can dip sticks into it and the honey coats the sticks with a liquid film that they lick off.

Now that I think of it, the guy that sells me dark almost black honeycomb has liquid clean honey in a jar that he sells as raw. he only sells in the winter but I'll ask him.

Good idea. Maybe you can put to rest the question of whether all honey sold in liquid form is heated and if some is indeed raw, get an explanation for why some raw honeys that are sold are liquid while most are thick.

[KD]

Quite possible, at any rate it's academic because the vids show how you can extract the honey without using heat and I doubt that every honey seller that claims their honey is unheated actually heats it. I suspect that most probably use heated decapping knifes, but that doesn't seem like it would have a big impact, and it does seem to be true that some don't use centrifuges that are alleged to mildly heat the honey. The first video shows that it's possible to use an unheated decapping scraper and thus not have any heating at all besides maybe a teensy bit of heating when the extractor spins the combs around.

I have found that standard unheated honey increases my dandruff and dry skin, but fermented raw honey has the opposite effect. Eating fermented raw honey has been the most effective thing I've tried for reducing dandruff, better than pine tar shampoo, zinc shampoo, coconut oil and other external treatments. I suspect that the microbiota in the honey kill dandruff-causing yeast, but it's just a guess.

The vids show how.

Correct, it looks like most beekeepers for raw brands may use an extractor. Plus, hives may be warmer than room temperature and the honey may thus be more liquid when it's originally extracted than after it's been sitting in a jar for a while and it may also crystallize in the jar, further thickening it. I've noticed that in videos showing hunter gatherers and chimps getting honey and honeycomb from hives and eating it, that the honey is rather liquid in the wild hive. It tends to drip from the combs as HGs eat it and it gets their hands messy. It also is liquid enough so that chimps can dip sticks into it and the honey coats the sticks with a liquid film that they lick off.

welll in fairness, I don't think those vids posted till your edit which was after I responded, but since the first seems to be a non-chemistry-grade centrifuge (uses centrifugal force to extract honey) and the other uses a heated knife I think its safe to stay its not an academic observation. I'd still say that unless a product can claim it is never heated (which some do) then even the mentions of 'cold-packing' and such might not be enough if one wants really pure honey. I wasn't saying that 'unheated' labeling is to be questioned per se..only that the other company you posted wasn't seemingly being honest with its terminology.

I hardley even eat honey so it might seem like fretting over nothing, but just for the sake of accuracy...just like steaming foods or whatever...the stock 'raw' answer has to do with whether one would put their hand in the steaming pot. I personally would not want to grab hold of that heating knife. Whether it is 100% necessary to use or one can crank the extractor at low speeds isn't the issue..its whether these specific companies are doing it or not. If a company is not even trying to call their product 'unheated' then the odds are it is not. and they use heat whenever they can for the highest temps they can get away with. What I said was I wasn't sure exactly how they were employing no heat at all, in the case of Honey Pacifica or Really Raw etc...and do it profitably, not wondering how  one could get some honey out of the comb...

when honey gets above room temps..its definitely really liquidy and gooey. They can heat the rooms and such as well. Granted the temps might not be damaging, but again if they are not specifying 'unheated'..and just going by 109 deg as 'raw' its fair game to do any number of things.

Theres been a few people mentioning that even non-fermented honeys work great for their candida. It could be that fermented or not..maybe it does not to ferment in the digest track like fresh fruits and the beneficial properties absorbed more efficiently. Of course like anything, fermenting the food beforehand should make it even more digestible and assimilable and perhaps bacterial that can break down internal crap, so that seems like something worth trying for some.

[PaleoPhil]

welll in fairness, I don't think those vids posted till your edit which was after I responded, but since the first seems to be a non-chemistry-grade centrifuge (uses centrifugal force to extract honey) and the other uses a heated knife I think its safe to stay its not an academic observation. ...

Good call, KD, I think you're right. I thought those were different devices from fancy centrifuges like this one: , but apparently those are just primitive centrifuges that also might heat the honey. I still haven't seen any extraction process that doesn't involve a centrifuging extractor. Aajonus does claim that some honey sellers don't use centrifuges, right?

Honey Pacifica apparently also uses a spinning extractor/centrifuge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkOvRsLSf6E, based on their own video, despite calling their product "cold packed" and "unheated honey." Rather disappointing, but not hugely surprising and I don't know how big a deal it really is.

The most bizarre thing about the whole process is that most beekeepers and honey sellers discard the best parts of the honey hive--the cappings and stray bee grubs/larvae and when the honey gets really good (fermented) most of them say it has "gone bad" and throw it out. The wasi'chu are so difficult to understand.

It would be supercool if fermented raw comb honey were sold, though it would probably be mega expensive.

[RawZi]

... The wasi'chu are so difficult to understand.

    I never saw a honey centrifuge before.  Thanks.  As for the Wasihu, it's not only 1984 but beyond that.  Don't centrifuges get warmer when they're spinning?

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, that was what Aajonus reported he found when he used a heat gun to measure the temp of the honey in a centrifuge.

What happened in 1984, or are you referring to George Orwell's book?

[RawZi]

are you referring to George Orwell's book?

    Yes.

    Do you know what temperatures they might reach?

    I got honey from one place.  The honey looked heated.  I gave it away.  I spoke to the company and they said although they don't heat it, the centrifuge brings it up to 127F.

    Now I tried honey from another place that swears they don't heat it.  They centrifuge.  I asked if they use any kind of thermometer.  They said no.  I asked does the temperature get above 96F.  They said probably.  I asked above 105F.  They said they're sure not.  The honey appears more heated than the 127F.  Funny, this last one started with responding to me that they don't boil the honey when I asked if it's raw.  They are not raw fooders.  They were cooking soup and mentioned enjoying daily coffee.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't remember, sorry.

[RogueFarmer]

Is comb honey really always raw? I have seen plenty of comb honey that seems like it was heated honey to me, never saw crystalized comb honey.

If you live in NYC and want a large selection of comb honey, there is a store in Brooklyn, on Atlantic Ave, next to I believe Union street or is it Carol? Anyways, on Atlantic Ave, not far from Fulton St. and the Manhattan Bridge. It's called Oriental imports I believe, it's right across the street from another store called Sahadis.

Oriental imports is amazing and they have tons of varieties of comb honey.

[PaleoPhil]

Is comb honey really always raw? I have seen plenty of comb honey that seems like it was heated honey to me,

Same here. Most of the honey comb I have tried has been somewhat disgusting to me, more like pancake syrup in flavorless wax than truly raw, unfiltered honeycomb. Even centrifuged, unfermented raw honey has been better, in my experience.

never saw crystalized comb honey.

I have, but it was hard to find and I had to order it via the Internet at a high price. Tyler apparently has a good local source, but I have yet to see a good local source here during the last few years. When I asked a local honey maker if they would consider selling truly raw honey comb they unfortunately dismissed the suggestion.

[RogueFarmer]

Same here. Most of the honey comb I have tried has been somewhat disgusting to me, more like pancake syrup in flavorless wax than truly raw, unfiltered honeycomb. Even centrifuged, unfermented raw honey has been better, in my experience.
I have, but it was hard to find and I had to order it via the Internet at a high price. Tyler apparently has a good local source, but I have yet to see a good local source here during the last few years. When I asked a local honey maker if they would consider selling truly raw honey comb they unfortunately dismissed the suggestion.

It's unfortunate but true that many a farmer can be extremely idiotic.

Oh gosh wouldn't it just be a terrible thing if they actually managed to make some money for once?

[TylerDurden]

Never buy  honeycomb from abroad or in a glass jar, and make sure it is local(produced within 300 km, if possible).

[cherimoya_kid]

Why would comb honey be heated?  That's just more work.

[KD]

If you live in NYC and want a large selection of comb honey, there is a store in Brooklyn, on Atlantic Ave, next to I believe Union street or is it Carol? Anyways, on Atlantic Ave, not far from Fulton St. and the Manhattan Bridge. It's called Oriental imports I believe, it's right across the street from another store called Sahadis.

Oriental imports is amazing and they have tons of varieties of comb honey.

Hey I know that spot!

Why would comb honey be heated?  That's just more work.

I don't know the answer, but think of pasteurizing juices and stuff. Has cost and time involved there too. I assume if they do heat it, its shelf time with comb, but honey seems to have a decent shelf time as is. I generally wouldn't buy comb from the store, only keepers who specifically say they just cut it and put it in the package, to be 'safe'.