Author Topic: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?  (Read 15511 times)

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Offline meat_juice

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Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« on: October 10, 2011, 08:41:03 pm »
I know that all of you haven't had great experiences with raw fruitarianism, but do you totally think of it as an unhealthy lifestyle?

What do you say for the people who have had success on a raw fruitarian lifestyle?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2011, 08:58:23 pm »
I know that all of you haven't had great experiences with raw fruitarianism, but do you totally think of it as an unhealthy lifestyle?

What do you say for the people who have had success on a raw fruitarian lifestyle?

The fruitarian I know who claims some success is Barefoot Herbalist MH and he makes his own special super nutritious combo with nuts and other herbs only found in his part of the planet which may not be achievable for some.  Good for him.  I was his student in his first 108 class.

Sadly, I could not replicate his fruitarian success. 

I have greater success as a raw paleo diet healer than as a fruitarian healer.

My angle as a healer exposes me to many many more people out there and shows just how fast healing raw paleo diets can be without the need for exotic herbs.

Veganism is a detox only thing.

It's not for long term.  And certainly not a multi-generational thing.  No human tribe historically or pre-historically has ever been vegan.
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Offline meat_juice

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 10:18:15 pm »
Ah I have seen many fruitarians who have had success but most of them are 80 to 90 percent raw. I have seen a few bad ones too. On the meat eater side, I have seen many ones have success, and I have seen few bad ones(there was one particular case where Durianriders was criticizing his friend for having parasites and eating raw meat)


Well, even apes are not 100% vegans. I have never seen a frugivore ape not include meat in their diet.
Even gorillas, who are herbivore, will include small amounts of meat in their diet.
In fact, the frugivore diet does include some raw meat, just in smaller amounts. A 100% vegan diet doesn't even exist for apes, because if apes went without meat for a while, they would become malnourished too :)

There is no such thing as a frugivore diet without small amounts of meat or insects. But regardless of whether monkeys eat small amounts of meat, they are are still classified as frugivores, because the majority of their diet is fruit.




Even in the vegan world, mixing fats and sugar is bad. Having both experience on a cooked paleo diet and a semi raw vegan diet, I can say that when you are eating a lot of meat or fatty foods, then you must limit carbs, but if you are fruitarian, then you must limit fats. Mixing the both of them is a mistake.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:32:03 pm by meat_juice »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 02:04:03 am »
I was a very long-term vegan and vegetarian - mostly raw.

I wouldn't claim any diet to be generally "healthy" for everyone. I think diet is probably quite individual and without extensive scientific studies - all claims are just that - claims. The problem with fruitarianism today in the groups I have witnessed so far imho is that many of them are fundamentalist-based and will censor when they have problems so you won't hear about when it goes really wrong for people.

I almost never eat fruit without lots of fat and it feels the best to me personally. Plain fruit has always had a tendency to imbalance me.

The most anyone can do when it comes to diet is to hear a theory, think it through logically, hear the claims of others and test it for the themselves.

The problem as I see it is this thing about "detoxing". It makes no sense to me at all and never has. Think about it ..... If you feel bad you have no way of knowing if what is making you feel bad is that you are making yourself really sick and harming yourself or if it's "cleansing" ........ so...... I have only ever done things that make me feel good or at least better and believed outright anyone else's arguments that a diet is what is healthy, best, natural, ideal, what our ancestors ate etc (although interesting to contemplate) if it doesn't work for me quickly and long-term. I have no reason to believe anyone else unquestioningly. If it works for me it works and if doesn't it doesn't. Since I don't have anything to sell or gain I can stay flexible. Many have told me here that veganism made them sick and fruitarianism in particular. The big question is going to be - how does eating fruit make you feel? I mean - honestly - without trying to talk yourself into anything because someone you think is smarter or better sells you a pitch. I mean - not waiting until your symptoms get so bad that you have serious problems. You will get hints right away if a kind of diet or food is good for you or not. You have to listen to your own body - because as of yet - no one knows if there is a best diet for humans or what it is, in today's world. The best we can do is make educated guesses.




Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2011, 03:09:09 am »


Even in the vegan world, mixing fats and sugar is bad. Having both experience on a cooked paleo diet and a semi raw vegan diet, I can say that when you are eating a lot of meat or fatty foods, then you must limit carbs, but if you are fruitarian, then you must limit fats. Mixing the both of them is a mistake.

Are you talking about food combining, at the same meal?  If yes, then I agree.  Otherwise...

And, just so we're clear, if you're another one of DurianRider's avatars, I will ban you, Harley.

Offline meat_juice

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 03:11:41 am »
No I am not, but I am a fan of the liferegenerator(Dan the Man, Dan McDonald). He doesn't seem malnourished to me, at least at this point.

Offline meat_juice

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 03:30:31 am »
I think usually the problem with fruitarianism is people don't balance and sometime their food is not absorbed, thus creating malnutrition. Of course, if you have undigested food in your stool and your eating 4 tomatoes, your digestive system is moving too quick as though the food is not being absorbed.

There are different ways to do the raw food vegan diet. You could eat only fruit. You could eat nuts and seeds and greens, but less fruit. Or you could eat more vegetables and less fruit and nuts and seeds.

Plus when people restrict themselves too much, they end up with deficiencies.



Me being on the cooked paleo diet was ok, but I felt like I was getting too sleepy all the time and couldn't concentrate. I felt like I needed sleep during the day and night. My goals with diet are to get to the point where I could improve my concentration.

I might get back to paleo in the future, but I am trying out raw frugivorism(with small amounts of cooked meat) to see if it works for me, and if it doesn't, I'll probably have to come here and eat raw meat.

Offline miles

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 08:23:56 am »
I thought fruitarian meant you could eat anything that doesn't cost something its life. So a fruitarian could eat fruits, seeds, milk, honey, nuts etc as long as they weren't killing what they got it from. They could even eat carrion.

But if they caused the death of the animal, took so much honey or milk they they hurt the bees/babies, or took so much fruit from a tree without giving back that they damaged it then it wouldn't be fruitarianism. So a fruitarian couldn't buy meat, but if they found some lying around or as waste then they could eat it.

What ever people use it to mean now, I think that's the original definition of fruitarianism... Like how vegetarian originally means eating for fast digestive transit.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 10:55:24 am »
I thought fruitarian meant you could eat anything that doesn't cost something its life.. .
... Like how vegetarian originally means eating for fast digestive transit.

    Your definition of what fruitarian is what I agree with Miles.

    With that vegetarianism I would live on three raw things, maybe no other food: adrenals, livers and really old liquidy high meat. I bet it would feel great. Maybe I'll try it in the future. It would be a harsh detox though.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 11:11:58 am »

I might get back to paleo in the future, but I am trying out raw frugivorism(with small amounts of cooked meat) to see if it works for me, and if it doesn't, I'll probably have to come here and eat raw meat.

Is this Padraig again?  Come on, dude, quit trolling us. I'm tired of banning you.

Offline raw

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 11:46:32 am »
I can't be vegan again, especially raw vegan. Very dangerous.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 03:39:00 pm »
    Me absofuggamalutely too! Amen sister! I spent more years vegan than most of the people on this forum were alive. I suffered so much from very grave illness and more. It was so hard for me to make the jump to meat, and I knew it couldn't be cooked meat. Once I tried it, I didn't so much like it, but I KNEW it was right more than anything else in my life. There is no reason to be vegan, unless that's the best of your understanding.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 02:04:50 am »
I thought fruitarian meant you could eat anything that doesn't cost something its life. So a fruitarian could eat fruits, seeds, milk, honey, nuts etc as long as they weren't killing what they got it from. They could even eat carrion.

But if they caused the death of the animal, took so much honey or milk they they hurt the bees/babies, or took so much fruit from a tree without giving back that they damaged it then it wouldn't be fruitarianism. So a fruitarian couldn't buy meat, but if they found some lying around or as waste then they could eat it.

What ever people use it to mean now, I think that's the original definition of fruitarianism... Like how vegetarian originally means eating for fast digestive transit.

Miles - I never heard or read this definition before and it's an amazing definition! I always thought that when someone said that they were a fruitarian it meant that they just ate fruit and that's it. The seeds could become plants so they are embryos of sorts (killing the plant to be) and the meat was once alive and sentient so that wouldn't be eaten and to milk a cow you have to trap it or domesticate it - same with eggs - so I thought those were out too. But your definition brings all this into question for me! Scavenging and planting some of the seeds you eat might also mean eating plants if you cared for the plants and helped them to regenerate then no? This would make fruitarianism into a very wide diet indeed.

I would not go back to being a vegan because it is completely unnecessary now that I can get great raw eggs, understand about grass-fed and that the animals are NOT tortured etc. The reason my diet was so restricted was because I knew that RAW was best for me but did not have all the information or access before. For instance - I adore having my chickens and eating their eggs raw and my life is MUCH EASIER eating RAFoods than when I was vegan/vegetarian. I don't have to do so much acrobatics and my refrigerator and my shopping habits are now within reason.

Offline KD

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2011, 03:41:39 am »
The issue with above is plants and animals are not given freely. Even if a plant or animal died and fell it wouldn't be considered part of that elevated human diet since they believe only what is regularly given without death biologically represents man's natural diet. That unlike all other creatures man does not depend on death. Slightly differnt than the 'man are chimps' fruitarians, who ironically in nature really could care less about killing what they can. ditto all animal products: milk products, honey etc...which are usually not given freely and are not of use for humans. Whether one kills or not the death of an animal does not regenerate, and animal products food for animals, but a fruit keeps fruiting from the plant without its death.


I knew of some fruitarians by that definition (morally opposed to plants) in that they would eat only fruits, seeds and nuts - some not even eating seeds for the reason that those could be plants..as the fleshy part of the fruits would not. Some - like some vegetarians - dont even care as much about the health stuff, eating even cooked fruits. All kind of silly, although I can respect peoples spiritual ideas alot easier than their health ones...

"freegan" more accurately I think fits the above. Example: the skinny indie-rock dude that works at the grocery store went from vegan to a 'freegan" diet so he could still get it up after a long days work.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 04:21:32 am by KD »

Offline raw-al

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2011, 07:56:36 am »
To me a fruitarian is someone who eats fruit.

A vegetarian is someone that eats veges and anything other than meat or fish or dairy. Some veges eat dairy, but they are lacto vegetarians.

Killing animals has nothing to do with being a vegetarian except in some people's minds.

When you eat a carrot you are effectively killing the carrot.

If you eat only nuts you are a "nut"  ;D ;D ;D Some refer to them as a nut case.

Your body type will help you figure out if you are likely to have success in the various diets.
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Offline jessica

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2011, 09:10:44 am »
i dont think veganism is an acceptable diet
however i do believe in the power of limiting the diet to restorative foods and would suggest a healing diet with NO fruits, NO NUTS OR SEEDS, low glycemic carbs is acceptable as a healing treatment for those with extremely compromised systems and only to be used for short periods of times, the focus being on major amounts of greens(mostly fresh lettuces, dandelions, mallows and smaller amounts of kales, cabbages, arugula, mustards which i believe should be stewed)  large of fresh parsley(curly, italian) cilantro, dill, fennel, basil, as well as herbal teas made with roots, seeds and leaves, nourishing and restoring veggies such as cukes, zukes, okra, onions, garlic, leeks, small amounts of cooked root veggies, baked squash, baked or souped potatoes, and that all of this should be taken with butter, salt and lemon or lime. mostly just making it a green nutritious soupy healing diet and also believe in fermented veggies in lieu of yogurt...i think then adding fats and meat in the form of broths and organs,  then fish and white meats, yogurts and eggs, and then red meats, once all of this is tolerated you can add peas, berries, melons, citrus and honey in small amounts if tolerated........thats kind of a culmination of my observations and experiences personally and that of friends and acquaintances....

i dont think veganism is sustainable, complimentary measures such as vitamins and other chemical compounds means that your diet is lacking, body is not absorbing properly, needs time to heal, needs more nutrition from powerful food and probably more sunshine and fresh air and less of the social burdens that impart sickness on all of society

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2011, 04:19:12 am »
To me a fruitarian is someone who eats fruit.

A vegetarian is someone that eats veges and anything other than meat or fish or dairy. Some veges eat dairy, but they are lacto vegetarians.

Killing animals has nothing to do with being a vegetarian except in some people's minds.

When you eat a carrot you are effectively killing the carrot.

If you eat only nuts you are a "nut"  ;D ;D ;D Some refer to them as a nut case.

Your body type will help you figure out if you are likely to have success in the various diets.

Ha ha ha. Well, I think generally it's a perceived relative scale. First there are lacto, ovo, pesco vegetarians that just cut out red meat (lacto for milk, ovo for eggs and pesco for fish). The there are lacto, ovo vegetarians that cut out the fish and there are lacto vegs and ovo vegs and beegans (eat bee products only) and then finally vegans. Then there are raw versions of all of the above and fruitarians which are a tiny part of the tiny group of raw vegans. Fruitarians I thought were into not killing anything and being a part of killing nothing at all because the plant freely gives the fruit to be eaten - by golly - it made the fruit so we would take it and spread the seeds wide and far.

But alas, with modern agriculture there is always killing because ecosystems are destroyed. So then the fruitarians move to the the next level of a utopian tropical society with food forests.

All of the above worked for me, including vegan for a decade or so very well (with no supplementation) except the fruitarian group (even though I kinda wished it did). Everything is relative! Raw paleo so far is the best and easiest of the lot and makes the most sense - but most of the raw diets beat most of the cooked diets for me - in general. For me - the most important aspect is raw.

Offline zbr5

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 04:36:24 am »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2011, 05:10:53 am »
I've seen those pictures and think it's pretty stupid. We have not one piece of information on genetics, childhood diet, parents' diet, overall lifestyle, exposure to toxins, previous diseases or what either of these women would look like on the other one's diet.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2011, 12:13:29 pm »

    It was funny when I was on GI2MR.  All the fruitarians on one longer than ever thread kept making fun of how awfully fat Nigella is.  I found Gillian online before too, and noticed how much older she looks than stated age, yet professes all those healthy vegetables.  I wish everyone would be healthy, and then no reason to be concerned about what someone else has for food.  But yes, any kind of vegetarianism is a transition diet, even if it takes thirty years.  RAFDs are life diets.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:02:45 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 01:06:34 pm »
I do wish people wouldn't go in for this photo-comparing nonsense. It's completely fraudulent, and does NOT give a true impression of a person's health at all.  For example, I have seen other photos of Nigella Lawson which  show her to look much, much older than she does in that fake photo. Plus, Nigella is stinking rich and, without a doubt, has had plastic surgery like so many others of her ilk, so that should be taken into account. Same goes for those photos of Art DeVany, they are just as meaningless. Simply put, photos can play tricks on the mind due to being photoshopped/edited, having superior light conditions which make the skin shine more etc.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 11:35:16 pm »
I was a 23 year vegan and I look about right for my age. That kind of silly picture comparison thing is not worthy of a second look.

I am a confirmed raw meat/dairy/vege foodist and I see the value of it but there are plenty of healthy vegetarians in the world also.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 07:25:23 am »
    It was funny when I was on GI2MR.  All the fruitarians on one longer than ever thread kept making fun of how awfully fat Nigella is.
Wow! Nigella is gorgeous and so vibrant looking! Only someone with an eating disorder or an agenda would claim she was fat. I did a Google image search and she doesn't look that much older in any of the hundreds of images--certainly not as aged-looking as Gillian.  As a matter of fact, she looks much more consistently young and gorgeous than most celebrities. In some of the images she looked a little heavier, but not fat by any stretch of the imagination. Thanks for sharing Nigella's lovely image, zbr5 and Rawzi. Don't mind Tyler--he doesn't seem to like any of the images that get posted and often claims that they're photo shopped. It is true that most magazine images are photo shopped these days, but not necessarily the paparazzi images--they actually enjoy revealing celebrities at their worst.

Because Nigella does look so young for her age, there have been plastic surgery rumors, but she has denied them (without evidence verified by an objective 3rd party, there's no way for us to know for sure either way, of course):
Quote
. She has been rumoured to have undergone a nose job and a forehead lift and had botox injections. Fergie has said in response to the rumours: "It is completely untrue. Personally, I see a therapist. It's hard, [the rumours] hurt my feelings. I call my hypnotherapist and cry and let it go."
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity/how-nigella-lawson-won-the-ageing-game-20090407-9wkd.html#ixzz1c1ojW6yA

Check out what I found--another comparison of Lawson and McKeith, with Lawson's appearance attributed to her diet:
Quote
Domestic goddess Nigella Lawson is 50 years old. It seems her delectable diet and charming persona have kept her looking young. Keep in mind... she's only a year younger than Gillian McKeith!
Who knows, anything's possible. :shrug:

Quote
Nigella: 'Fat keeps me looking young'
"If I lost 40lb, I would age 10 years straight away. That's my excuse...
Nigella actually claims that her youthful appearance is because she isn't skinny. I certainly prefer the looks of women with curves myself to those runway models that are emaciated.

The "fat" comments from the vegans bring to mind an incident on the 30BAD forum that I came across while perusing it some time ago. There were some images of a guy from one of their get-togethers who looked like an androgenous Auschwitz concentration camp prisoner. One of the members spoke up and mentioned that he looked emaciated, which anyone in their right mind would recognize. Astoundingly, others took him to task and claimed that the emaciated fellow looked great. Talk about either cognitive dissonance or eating-disorder-skewed vision. Even DurianRider himself has admitted on multiple occasions that his forum is infested with people with ED's and he frequently admonishes them to eat more calories, which is saying something coming from a guy who looks super-thin himself.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 11:09:50 am by PaleoPhil »
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Offline KD

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 08:59:15 am »
If the photo is just a lone example to something one cannot verify in other medias or in real life than it is questionable. Having worked in imaging/magazines there IS a tremendous amount that can be manipulated, particularly easy things like smoothing skin or whatever. However, generally looking at multiple photos you'd be able to tell basic structural things...if people even had the balls to mess with them as they wouldn't be consistent with different sources. In silhouetted fashion ads, you are going to get away with more than candid shots of people walking down the street. if Art de Vany or Nigella looks the same in a video or according to others that see them in flesh (unless we assume these folks are not also in some conspiracy to show raw fooders as inferior), we can easily note that any touch ups on a photo are fairly minor if any, particularly if the video or photo is shot outdoors without a studio. At that point you are dealing only with the possibility of makeup, which can't work such wonders (you could cake it on mcKeith), particularly on physique.


At the very least photos which clearly document problems or blatently go against what people are claiming it becomes sort of irrelevant if they touched them up to get even to that level if they still don't deliver the goods...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 02:44:01 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 09:19:14 am »
but, but, but...........

One example of one woman that looks good at a certain age and one that doesn't no matter what they eat means little. I've seen people that eat nothing but SAD look great into their 50's. You're talking about someone in the industry who is obviously going to be photogenic by nature and endowed naturally.

I lived in a Manhattan photo studio and was surrounded by the fashion industry and models and photographers before there was even digital photography or that level of retouching. Believe me, people that look good on film often can look pretty bad in real life. Some people take to the medium and if a person has a halfway decent pr rep no bad picture or badly lit film is ever going to get out.

........ and...... you wouldn't believe what really good lighting and makeup can do when you get up there with the big bucks. It's a different world that any regular person would not have access to. And....... the special treatments. She might have her own personal Ayurvedic doctor, her own skin care specialist, a facial every other day etc. etc.

All this is moot though because no one person proves anything.... who knows what terrible health crises the woman on the left has gone through and come out better by doing what she is doing...... and personally I feel like trashing a woman as ugly or wrinkly or whatever here is in really poor taste. Not everyone is born with beauty or good genes no matter what they eat..... and if it doesn't really mean anything, why be so mean?   
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 02:52:04 pm by TylerDurden »

 

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