Poll

Are our bodies exclusively designed for warm tropical environments?

Yes, no doubt! We all should actually live in warm regions.
Nonsense! Human beings are able to thrive nearly everywhere on this planet.
I'm not sure.

Author Topic: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?  (Read 34085 times)

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Offline RawZi

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2011, 08:23:12 am »
Sorry Zi - that was a typo. I knew exactly what you meant. Fingers not working so well it seems today. I've heard you talk about how bad temperature control is for you several times before. I don't like it either generally, but I don't live alone. If it were up to me I might have some heat on the coldest nights here, but other than that I would much prefer not to have central air and the windows open. Maybe if I could live that way and eat enough fat I would have similar experiences to you and not be thinking about moving some place without the allergens, air filters and windows closed.

    I don't live alone either.  That's why I need diet.  The other members of my household who have hands do things like turn on the climate control and light fireplaces when I'm sleeping, so I wake up dry and bleeding if I don't have enough fat.  It's always been that way except when I controlled my home and had no climate control devices, just open windows.   The coldest day of the year is the most important time for outdoor air for me, as the indoor air is more artificial then.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline RawZi

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2011, 12:25:32 pm »
WOW! Your body seems to be really HOT! I guess all the snow within a radius of three miles around your sleeping place melted off...  :)

    I find or make a spot.  I sit against something, maybe a wall, I don't lay actually in the snow like GCBs son.  I wear good denim pants.  I try to concentrate on keeping my heat within me when going to sleep, maybe pull my arms from my sleeves.  But yes, I generate heat, unless I'm sick.  I think it's natural. I think anyone would generate enough heat in the situation, any healthy adult.

Mosquito bites are really no issue on a fully raw diet, ...

    Right.  Eating this diet it's easy to stay calm.  Mosquitoes don't like to bite calm people.  Yes, that too, I don't get itchy bumps when eating these foods that don't offend.

.. massive amounts of insects. Tropical mountains are the perfect place in my 'world' (which is an illusion, please don't forget  ;)). By adjusting the altitude ..

    Yes, I had found higher up there were less and no mosquitoes.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline RawZi

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2011, 12:31:37 pm »
what kind of animal fats do you usually prefer? I guess that the most saturated animal fats (like bison backfat) are the working best to achieve good body isolation as described in your post..?

May I ask you how many years you are now living on a raw paleo ..

    Lately the best fat I've been eating most of is grass finished beef marrow not having been frozen.  I love bison back-fat, but I find it too difficult to get.  I eat free range raw not been frozen chicken fat, raw local home made not been frozen Jersey cultured cream and butter, raw level four not been frozen pork belly, whatever I can get! I eat some raw  not been frozen fatty lamb.  I eat some raw not been frozen liver, turns out that has fat, I eat it mostly from chickens now.  I eat whole pastured unwashed not been cooled eggs. I don't eat much suet ever.  I find it a little dry.

    I started RVAFD almost six years now.  I'm not completely paleo.  I have been completely AV style pd, and like how that works a lot.  How about you?
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2011, 03:15:30 pm »
Well, given my own experiences, I would say that 0 degrees Celsius is fine. Most would have to learn survival techniques in order to live without fire at lower temperatures.

The point, though, is this:- sure, because of the advent of fire, no doubt our ability to withstand the cold has been reduced. So, living without fire for a few generations would favour those body-modifications that better withstand the cold. Not new mutations, just minor changes such as better circulation, thicker fat-layers being deposited under the skin etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2011, 08:29:50 pm »
Isn't the slant eye of the mongoloids a cold weather adaption which is basically extra fat tissue that adds extra protection for their eye sight in Arctic conditions?
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2011, 08:38:46 pm »
Isn't the slant eye of the mongoloids a cold weather adaption which is basically extra fat tissue that adds extra protection for their eye sight in Arctic conditions?
  I've read that they are an adaptation to cope with  dry, sandy desert winds.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2011, 09:06:24 pm »
The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so  for most people to adapt to the cold..

And we would only need 3 months or so for most people to adapt to the heat. In my view most people who have problems with warm climates just eat TOO much food. That's simply the main problem. But it is comprehensible that people eat so much if they live in cold countries.

As for the Out of Africa theory, the fact that it is still the majority belief among scientists does not make it correct.

Right, and which theory do you think comes clother to the truth?

Löwenherz
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 10:05:00 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2011, 09:12:25 pm »
Well, given my own experiences, I would say that 0 degrees Celsius is fine. Most would have to learn survival techniques in order to live without fire at lower temperatures.

That would be an amazing progress compared to my 10 degrees Celsius level.

I got the impression that you eat a lot of fruit. You mentioned recently that you frequently eat nothing else than fruit on some days.

How does fruit consumption affects your resistance to cold temperatures?

Löwenherz

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2011, 10:26:02 pm »
Obviously, I think  the multiregional hypothesis  is the correct one. It simply doesn't make sense to assume that modern man isn't a combination of admixtures of other hominid types, such as the Neanderthals etc.

As far as fruit/meat is concerned, I always eat more raw plant foods in the summer and more raw meats in the winter, as eating raw meat makes me feel much hotter.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2011, 12:21:08 am »
Well, given my own experiences, I would say that 0 degrees Celsius is fine. Most would have to learn survival techniques in order to live without fire at lower temperatures.


HA! We've been saying the same thing this whole time and didn't know it! That's pretty much the DEFINITION of TROPICAL! Below freezing is when we need protection because that is when our skin would freeze! You're talking pretty warm. All the United States except the extreme south coast (even most Florida reaches) that temperature.  In parts of tropical Florida the temperature goes down below that - what makes it still tropical is that it doesn't happen for enough days/nights in a row to freeze the ground. Granted it happens much less frequently, but every year here in Central and South Texas it goes substantially below that - usually at night.

The gulf stream gives England mild weather generally so you rarely get below zero celsius there if I'm not mistaken - so your climate is actually closer to Florida weather than it is to the relative coldTexas weather in some ways (which is considered very warm generally in the US). No wonder you think that humans can withstand really cold weather because to you, I'm starting to think, all but the smallest part of my vast country would be considered too cold to survive without fire and survival techniques. You could survive the cold in your country - because it doesn't get very cold.

We are in total agreement Tyler. Much under the temperature of freezing - fire and survival techniques are likely necessary.

The only difference between our thought processes me thinks is that we have different experiences of the tropics. You seem to have been to places in the tropics during the sweltering times and/or places in the tropics that did not get as cold in the winter. Where you are from is not considered the tropics, yet is quite close to tropical temperature lows in some tropical places and where I live too many people consider generally to be warmer than it is -- they try to grow tropical plants that end up dying and think that they don't need any winter clothes --- which is only true if you run from building to car to building and stay indoors at night during the coldest times. But living outdoors through winter would necessitate survival training.... except maybe for Zi! LOL

I'm glad the confusion is cleared up. I like being in agreement with you Tyler. :D

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2011, 12:33:14 am »
I'm amazed that you can spout such b*ll*cks! I mean, suggesting that the cold, rainy British weather has anything in common with the tropics is absolutely laughable!  And then your suggesting that so-called "wintry" Florida, with its swamps, alligators, orange groves etc. is semi-arctic just because of an occasional cold day every year - unbelievable ! l) l) l) l)

Plus, I also have lived extensively in Austria which routinely has snow in winter and is bloody cold at times.  So I am perfectly well aware what "cold" means. And I did NOT state that fire was ever needed below zero ceslsius, just slightly more advanced survival skills re making shelters for sleeping in, that's all.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2011, 01:07:08 am »
I'm amazed that you can spout such b*ll*cks! I mean, suggesting that the cold, rainy British weather has anything in common with the tropics is absolutely laughable!  And then your suggesting that so-called "wintry" Florida, with its swamps, alligators, orange groves etc. is semi-arctic just because of an occasional cold day every year - unbelievable ! l) l) l) l)

Plus, I also have lived extensively in Austria which routinely has snow in winter and is bloody cold at times.  So I am perfectly well aware what "cold" means. And I did NOT state that fire was ever needed below zero ceslsius, just slightly more advanced survival skills re making shelters for sleeping in, that's all.

Wow, I'm sorry to have ever gotten you so angry Tyler!

Survival techniques needed below about zero degrees celsius is what I read and what I was referring to - not dampness  (btw -it's pretty damp in Florida too - but I've never been to England). If you have never lived in Florida or Texas and tried to sleep outdoors during a night where it got below freezing - perhaps you shouldn't be so judgmental. The point was that those are the WARMEST places in my country and they still get below the temperature you stated. 99 % of the country is vastly colder.

Did you sleep outdoors naked in Austria during the winter then?

If you are going to be so angry though, perhaps we should stop the conversation - I mean this is all in fun and doesn't really matter all that much. If it's not going to be good-natured, why bother?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2011, 01:29:53 am »
No, but I've slept in the outdoors during autumn and early spring with just summer clothes on(shorts etc.), sometimes with drizzle,  and have also tented through the night in snow-filled conditions in leaky tents which let all the water in, with me just having a leaky, very thin sleeping bag -once I even had such strong winds that the tent collapsed, then flew away from me when I tried to set it up again. Not being an arctic explorer, I have not yet tried the survival-shelter in a hole which I mentioned earlier, but given past descriptions by other people, it would be a doddle to survive.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2011, 03:46:17 am »
But living outdoors through winter would necessitate survival training.... except maybe for Zi! LOL

    I think other things in my life prepared me like survival training, so I need less survival training now. I never said I spent a whole cold winter outdoors, just that I was thinking of doing it this winter.

In my view most people who have problems with warm climates just eat TOO much food. That's simply

    When I was passing out from the heat I was veg and eating almost exclusively fully vine ripened not been refrigerated very local fruit (not much) and reverse osmosis water.  I was getting so worn out that I tried coffee (I've never been a coffee person or one for hot drinks to get an effect), but it didn't wake me up.  My tsc level was very low no matter what at the time, I'm not sure about the rest.  I think my adrenals and my pancreas were affected (or got low blood sugar level) a lot then. I had some symptoms of advanced adrenal disease, but didn't know that's what they were and didn't get it checked out.  Of course most people said I looked so healthy.  I was young.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2011, 03:50:57 am »
You're not suggesting Tyler that it's possible to survive through a bad winter naked in Austria by digging holes are you? I honestly didn't know that was possible. I don't know how cold it gets in Autumn and Spring in Austria - is that below freezing? What are the low temps in Austria in the winter? I've never been there or read about that place. In North Dakota it can get to (-20 F). Where I grew up in NY the temperatures in winter were commonly 10 - 20 F  which is significantly below 0 C and in other parts of the state it's commonly much, much colder. As a child I spent all day outside in winter and in the snow playing without much clothes on - but I couldn't imagine sleeping in that naked - especially without snow and with frozen ground - then there would be no way to dig a hole.

I think I get the point you are trying to make though - that we can tolerate more cold than usually believed.

I still think that we are better adapted for the heat than the cold and that it is unlikely that most people even if eating well that would survive without clothing or fire all that much below freezing temperatures. Are there any places that humans wouldn't survive the heat on earth as long as there was water and a food supply?

Well, I certainly learned something during this conversation and some things to experiment with.

Hey Zi - you said that you have always been better in the cold than than the heat didn't you? Was that also true when you were a sproutarian? Would you say that there was a certain amount of fat that changed your ability to tolerate the cold significantly?


Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2011, 03:53:01 am »
    I think other things in my life prepared me like survival training, so I need less survival training now. I never said I spent a whole cold winter outdoors, just that I was thinking of doing it this winter.

    When I was passing out from the heat I was veg and eating almost exclusively fully vine ripened not been refrigerated very local fruit (not much) and reverse osmosis water.  I was getting so worn out that I tried coffee (I've never been a coffee person or one for hot drinks to get an effect), but it didn't wake me up.  My tsc level was very low no matter what at the time, I'm not sure about the rest.  I think my adrenals and my pancreas were affected (or got low blood sugar level) a lot then. I had some symptoms of advanced adrenal disease, but didn't know that's what they were and didn't get it checked out.  Of course most people said I looked so healthy.  I was young.

I was just joking about you being able to tolerate anything Zi. :D
Do you think that you are able to tolerate hot weather now that you have been eating raw fat for awhile too Zi?

When I eat well I seem to be able to tolerate both cold and heat better.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2011, 04:13:50 am »
I doubt that humans could survive for long in the Atacama desert, for example, given the heat, the lack of water....

As regards Austria, the temperature varies rapidly:- in summer, it's very hot indeed, in winter, it usually snows and is very cold, with rain otherwise occurring often. Point is, that people could still survive all that without any fire, they just require shelters, furs etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2011, 04:34:53 am »
Of course people can't survive the desert Tyler - that's why I said with water and a food supply.

Yes, I understand clothes and shelter.....  much below freezing.....  that's what we need. Agreed.

No other animal uses the skins of other animals do they? There are some animals that instinctively make nests - but I consider that to be a different order than building with tools. We aren't even much designed for digging holes without tools. We also don't slow down our metabolisms dramatically like bears do.

If we were living like plain old animals without using our advanced intelligence and verbal communication skills - I am still convinced that it is heat rather than cold we are most adapted to.

But I sure like the idea of how much more cold we can tolerate than I thought previously. I really in the next couple of years would like to try out Zi's fat building strategy and to try to pretty much live outdoors even in the cold nights. What a hoot that could be!

Offline RawZi

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2011, 04:48:29 am »
you have always been better in the cold than than the heat didn't you? Was that also true when you were a sproutarian? Would you say that there was a certain amount of fat that changed your ability to tolerate the cold significantly?

  No, not as Sproutarian.  I was very sensitive to cold then, but any amount of heat fine.

    Absolutely!  If practically all I eat is raw fat, an all raw diet, I can tolerate just about any temperature.  I still as all above prefer cold.   

Do you think that you are able to tolerate hot weather now that you have been eating raw fat for awhile too ..? 

    Yes, I know.  Fat helps me tolerate.  Doesn't change my preference though from what I see.

When I eat well I seem to be able to tolerate both cold and heat better.

    Me too.  But cold is very nice.  Heat? Everything is beautiful, but heat is not as nice.

Point is, that people could still survive all that without any fire, they just require shelters, furs etc.

    I was just explaining that in person today, as my partner keeps saying (not word for word) every human needs indoor heating installed.  Had to agree with me when I finally said maybe government wants us nice and cozy with air conditioning and heating so we sit down and take in our tv programming.  How are you going to convince an adult of your programming that cold is impossible while they are having real experience in a snow cave year after year?
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2011, 05:06:51 am »
Heating as a device to make us watch more television?! Hmmmm. Never quite thought of that one.  ;)  I'll need to chew on that a bit.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2011, 05:09:53 am »
.. a device to make us watch more television?! Hmmmm. Never quite thought of that one.  ;)  I'll need to chew on that a bit.

    Whatever will get the point across.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2011, 05:15:05 am »
What's your perception of what the "the point" and "programming" are Zi?

In Hawaii and Puerto Rico, because of the mild weather, usually there is no heat or air conditioning. Some houses in the tropics do have air-conditioning - but usually to keep things from rotting away due to the high humidity.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2011, 05:57:40 am »
The whole point is to point out that our palaeo HG ancestors did not need fire, but could use furs or survival shelters etc. etc. in order to survive.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:44:30 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2011, 06:14:38 am »
The whole point is to point out that our palaeo HG ancestors did not need fire, but could use furs or survival shelters etc. etc. in order to survive.

Ok - that's fair. They did. We can live that way and other ways where they lived. It's a different question I think - but a really great point that is pertinent to the forum and which brings up really useful information and discussions..... like how you and Zi have changed in respect to the cold on your diets.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:46:22 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline Iguana

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Re: Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2011, 06:26:04 am »
Iguana, the reason why the out of africa is quasi-creationist is because it tries to claim a common ancestor for all humans that is far too recent. There was that bizarre, "african eve" claim for example, which clearly was an attempt to  fashion a quasi-Biblical "adam-and-eve" type story to human evolution. The Out of africa theory is also quasi-creationist since its proponents have been trying to claim falsely, for decades, that modern humans are not descended from apemen nor interbred with them, yet current evidence shows that modern humans share DNA with at least 2 apemen types, with indications of other types of apemen DNA being present as well. So it seems that our DNA came from all over the "Old World" not just Africa.

Then there's the overly simplistic diagram you showed. For example, some evidence has come to light, suggesting that modern East Asians may be partially descended from advanced types of homo erectus. So the old, silly notion that Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were "behind" modern humans, in an evolutionary sense, must be wrong. And that silly notion was directly derived from the Out of Africa theory which wrongly claimed, for decades,  that Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were so stupid, lacking culture or the ability to talk that it was supposedly impossible for modern humans to have interbred with them.  Now that  various  different kinds of "apeman" DNA have been found in modern humans and more evidence has come to light showing that Neanderthals etc. were on a par with modern humans, the OA theory is increasingly showing flaws.
Ok, I read a bit on this subject (various articles on Wikipedia and for example this page http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html explaining both theories and this one http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm  which comes to an opposite conclusion) and now I understand better what you mean. I had the wrong idea that the so called “Out of Africa” theory was about the global origin of both sub-species, Sapiens and Neanderthals, thus I didn’t understand because Neanderthals are also supposed of African origin:
Quote
Neanderthals, whose ancestors left Africa about 400,000 to 800,000 years ago, evolved in what is now mainly France, Spain, Germany and Russia, and are thought to have lived until about 30,000 years ago. Meanwhile, early modern humans left Africa about 80,000 to 50,000 years ago. The question on everyone's mind has always been whether the physically stronger Neanderthals, who possessed the gene for language and may have played the flute, were a separate species or could have interbred with modern humans. The answer is yes, the two lived in close association. (from 2nd link above)
But, according to what I read elsewhere,  modern humans carry no more than a very small amount of Neanderthal genes in their DNA (1 to 4%, as I mentioned before) - or none at all as is doubtlessly the case of Africans.

I feel that both theories are neither necessarily incompatible nor conflicting in a binary way, because they are neither dogmatically rigid nor monolithic.

Anyway,  as Neanderthals have their origin in Africa too, what is the argument? They had populated Europe for a longer period of time and thus should have been better adapted to cold climate, I suppose? Ok, but what does it change if 3 generations only suffice for an adaptation to the cold, as you wrote?
The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so  for most people to adapt to the cold, with  quite a number now already adapted, provided they ate raw foods like the Inuit and understood simple survival tips like living in igloos or survival shelters in the snow etc.

So, is the issue about some interbreeding or no interbreeding at all between  Sapiens and Neanderthals relevant  concerning resistance to cold? Who cares, except anthropologists?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:55:09 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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