Author Topic: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?  (Read 8520 times)

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Offline Dorothy

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What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« on: November 11, 2011, 01:44:56 am »
Check out this thing I saw in Hammacher Schlemmer:

http://www.hammacher.com/Product/79504?promo=search

It says that it can cold -smoke cheese and fish indoors!

I might be getting a whole grass-fed ewe ground up for my dogs from the guy that I have gotten my ground lamb from. Us humans might or might not like the taste so it will be considered dog food. It's getting harder and harder to get grass-fed as most of the suppliers are done for the year and there wasn't much with the drought to start with - but an older ewe might be possible. The big thing is - making the trip (long) out to the processing plant I just might be able to get at least part of it unfrozen. This would be the first unfrozen meat I have been able to locate as here in cattle country I have found out that meat is no longer butchered locally, but sent to the big processing plants to be butchered and frozen because of all the FDA tough regulations and risks involved for the farmers.

I was planning on freezing the vast majority but am now wondering which one would be better - freezing or smoking?

I'm betting that the meat will last a month or two (maybe three if I add enough other things) - if only the doggies eat it.

Do I have other options? One dog is pretty sick, one is old and picky (neither have many teeth) and the other is young but a chub a muffin.  All three are rescues with history of bad diets behind them - but have been on all raw with me for years. I wonder about high meat with the ground meat for them - but pre-frozen can't do that right? Maybe I could experiment with some of the meat fresh and fermented for them? That could be exciting.

I have a dehydrator and that could be an option to - but wouldn't that be pretty smelly?

I wonder what kind of things can be cold-smoked besides fish...... anyone have experience with it?

Gotta figure out how the best way to make this ground meat last. I have a whole freezer side of an upright fridge so can fit the whole ground ewe in there without problem if that's the best.

Thanks!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 02:19:23 am »
Smoking is the worst as it adds smoke particles which are carcinogenic. I believe nitrosamines are formed as a result of the smoke. Hot-smoked is worse than cold-smoked as the latter is prepared at raw temperatures(ie below 40 degrees Celsius).

Dehydrated foods can cause problems. I vaguely recall that Ioanna had problems with them(?) The point is that raw foods have a higher water-content so are assumed by rawists to be more digestible. No science behind this belief, as yet, though. It could be said to be "less worse" than smoked meats.

Prefrozen is usually OK. I have come across a very few individuals who have complained of negative side-effects from eating prefrozen meats, once thawed.  But most seem to do OK on them. That said, freezing disrupts the cell-membranes so that nutrient-loss occurs rapidly once the meat thaws - in other words, eat the raw meat as soon as it is thawed, and DO NOT put  some of it back into the fridge for later. Also, many rawists complain that  prefrozen meats taste less good than fresh, nonfrozen raw meats, so, if it is an option, please ask your farmer to provide raw meats "chilled" instead of "prefrozen". That will involve ice-packs being added to raw meats, almost chilled to 0 degrees Celsius, but not quite.
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 04:33:42 am »
Prefrozen is usually OK. I have come across a very few individuals who have complained of negative side-effects from eating prefrozen meats, once thawed.  But most seem to do OK on them. That said, freezing disrupts the cell-membranes so that nutrient-loss occurs rapidly once the meat thaws - in other words, eat the raw meat as soon as it is thawed, and DO NOT put  some of it back into the fridge for later. Also, many rawists complain that  prefrozen meats taste less good than fresh, nonfrozen raw meats, so, if it is an option, please ask your farmer to provide raw meats "chilled" instead of "prefrozen". That will involve ice-packs being added to raw meats, almost chilled to 0 degrees Celsius, but not quite.
Wouldn't simply drinking the fluids that run from the meat after thawing get back all the supposedly lost nutrients. I can see how some nutrients can "flow", for lack of a better word, out of the cells but I don't see them evaporate...?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 05:12:16 am »
Wouldn't simply drinking the fluids that run from the meat after thawing get back all the supposedly lost nutrients. I can see how some nutrients can "flow", for lack of a better word, out of the cells but I don't see them evaporate...?
  I'm sure they evaporate as well.....
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 05:14:45 am »
  I'm sure they evaporate as well.....
I think that would be minimal especially in the fridge.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2011, 12:35:36 pm »
Thank you Tyler for your most useful reply.

Is everyone in agreement with Tyler that freezing would be the least of the evils?

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2011, 04:39:30 pm »
Thank you Tyler for your most useful reply.

Is everyone in agreement with Tyler that freezing would be the least of the evils?
I am.
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Offline djr_81

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2011, 08:34:01 pm »
Thank you Tyler for your most useful reply.

Is everyone in agreement with Tyler that freezing would be the least of the evils?
I agree.

Drying/dehydrating would be the next worse. In my personal experiences it causes one to overeat as they interpret thirst for hunger. I'm not sure on what nutritional loss there is though but it seems safe to assume water soluble vitamins would be damaged.
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Offline eveheart

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2011, 12:23:35 am »
Is not ground an option? I hang (S-hooks) large cuts of meat in my refrigerator for easily a month or more. If your dogs need it ground, I'm thinking you could grind it or knife-mince it before serving. My fridge does not smell bad (tested with my daughter's nose).
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2011, 12:47:22 am »
Is not ground an option? I hang (S-hooks) large cuts of meat in my refrigerator for easily a month or more. If your dogs need it ground, I'm thinking you could grind it or knife-mince it before serving. My fridge does not smell bad (tested with my daughter's nose).

I'm going to keep that suggestion Eve in my back pocket maybe for a later date. The refrigerator side is getting a lot of use and filled atm. What temperature do you keep the refrigerator on?

Offline eveheart

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 01:10:45 am »
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aged_beef#Dry-aged_beef
Quote
Dry-aged beef
Dry-aged beef is beef that has been hung to dry for several weeks.... the beef must be stored near freezing temperatures.... The key effect of dry aging is the concentration and saturation of the natural flavor.
The process changes beef by two means. First, moisture is evaporated from the muscle. This creates a greater concentration of beef flavor and taste. Second, the beef’s natural enzymes break down the connective tissue in the muscle, which leads to more tender beef....
The process of dry-aging usually also promotes growth of certain fungal (mold) species on the external surface of the meat. This doesn't cause spoilage, but actually forms an external "crust" on the meat's surface...[which] complement the natural enzymes in the beef by helping to tenderize and increase the flavor of the meat.

My fridge is just above freezing. I keep meat, fish and fermented veggies in it. I keep organ meats in the freezer when I need to buy them in bulk. My daughter steals aged beef and lamb from me. It's tasty both raw and cooked. If you hang certain cuts, such as a whole loin, you might want to have a hacksaw as one of your kitchen implements.

P.S. I started my hanging with small cuts, about 3 pounds**, so I didn't break my refrigerator shelves. I took out the vegetable drawers to make the whole interior a hanging space, and the top shelf has jars of sauerkraut and kimchi.

** For you "foreigners" on the forum, 3 pounds = 5.7 kilometers.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 02:10:50 am »
Thanks so much for that information Eve! That description of how good the meat is made my mouth water.

The problem that I am facing is that I can't get unfrozen grass-fed meat unless I buy a whole animal and pick it up at the processing plant myself and only certain animals are small enough to fit even when the whole side of the fridge (like my freezer right now) is empty. This time of year there are no lambs (just maybe an old ewe if I'm lucky).

I'm thinking that if I can do this with the farmer with the ground ewe now, then maybe by spring, with none of us on grains any more, all my seeds out of that fridge and everything pretty much used up (I have a lot to give away) - I can make that big adaptation to my fridge (and freezer) accommodating a whole animal.

One of my favorite kitchen tools is a machete - so why not add hacksaw? I'm going to have a macho kitchen - gotta love it! Actually - the fridge in question is in hubbie's man cave - so I'm sure I will be able to find the right tool for the job.  ;)

Offline Isthmus

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2011, 02:31:12 am »
** For you "foreigners" on the forum, 3 pounds = 5.7 kilometers.

I think you mean kilograms :D

Offline eveheart

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2011, 03:00:58 am »
I think you mean kilograms :D

No, I mean to make fun of *US*  l)
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Offline RawZi

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2011, 03:08:22 am »
Is everyone in agreement with Tyler that freezing would be the least of the evils?

    I think it may depend on which meat. Red and fish may be fine to eat frozen. Chicken may not, because chickens come from.a hotter climate.

    Smoke really is bad, but I might prefer a little smoke, as I don't feel good with frozen.

    I have preferred the taste of meat I let dry in refrigeration over frozen meat or emoked. I think cold (not freeze) dried is the best way to dry meat, if you have to preserve meat other than highmeats.
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Offline eveheart

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2011, 03:27:17 am »
I make dried meat in a homemade dryer, per Lex Rooker's $10-dryer design, for emergency-food storage. I agree with RawZi that cold-dried is great, but Lex's dryer uses only enough heat to set up a convection current in the dryer and carry off the moisture. This is okay by me for emergency-food storage. Toothless dogs might have trouble with it, though, so you might make dried-meat floss in a food processor or Vita-mix. But even with all these ideas, ground/frozen sounds like a good option right now for the ewe that you'll be getting. If I were in your shoes, I'd keep some of the ewe unground and unfrozen and experiment with cold aging and drying.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 05:04:50 am »
Eve, if I could get a part of my fridge open in time and I were to get some of the ewe to cold dry in my fridge, what would be the best small piece of the ewe to ask them to keep whole for me?

I have an excalibur dehydrator that I can set very low for temp. It might be good to dehydrate some of the meat if possible as a backup. Hubbie one day when working on the electricity in the bathroom switched off the breaker not realizing that the garage refrigerator was connected to the master bath (weird). I doubt if he will ever make that mistake again, but something could always happen to the electricity or the machine itself and it might be good to use some of the animal to make dried backups. If I can dehydrate some of the meat that might even open the possibility of larger, cheaper animals in the future.

How would you use a high-powered blender or a food processor to make the dried meat edible for doggies with few teeth Eve? Does dehydrating meat smell bad when not in the fridge?

Could I dehydrate ground meat into a jerky (sorta like fruit leather)? If not what cut would be best to keep whole and slice for drying (if they will even do this)?





Offline eveheart

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 05:34:14 am »
1. Best small piece of the ewe to ask them to keep whole for me?
Ha! This is a test of my lamb-cuts knowledge  ;D Something around the sirloin/leg? Everything else on a lamb is small compared to the corresponding cut of beef. You don't want the piece so small that it dries fast in the fridge, because then you wouldn't get the effect of the aging. Ewes would be larger than the young lambs I get, so maybe someone else knows better about this.
2. How to use a high-powered blender or a food processor to make the dried meat edible for doggies...
I slice  the meat thin and then dry strips until very dry, snip into 1" pieces, and pulse/whir up in a Vita-mix until the meat turns to floss. You might want to try doggie pemmican? I don't know about feeding dogs.
3. Does dehydrating meat smell bad when not in the fridge?
Nope, and no flies get into the dehydrator.
4. Could I dehydrate ground meat into a jerky (sorta like fruit leather)?
Yes, I've seen recipes for this online, and I think Wolf made dried ground beef in culinary creations. Hers were seasoned, I never season meat.
5. If not what cut would be best to keep whole and slice for drying (if they will even do this)?
Anything lean - fat does not dry right for keeping.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2011, 09:34:29 am »
1. Best small piece of the ewe to ask them to keep whole for me?
Ha! This is a test of my lamb-cuts knowledge  ;D Something around the sirloin/leg? Everything else on a lamb is small compared to the corresponding cut of beef. You don't want the piece so small that it dries fast in the fridge, because then you wouldn't get the effect of the aging. Ewes would be larger than the young lambs I get, so maybe someone else knows better about this.

    I think the loin and the leg are two different parts.  I think the loin is lean and tender.  I think the leg is fibrous.

Toothless dogs might have trouble with it, though, so you might make dried-meat floss in a food processor or Vita-mix.

    My toothless cat can eat and likes pemmican.

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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2011, 12:08:35 pm »
Great info Eve.

To Zi -- Pemmican huh? That's a whole other study for me. Does the meat have to be never frozen to make pemmican like it does for high meat? I think Lex had links to recipes if I remember right. I can't wrap my brain around the project atm. I'm have a feeling hubbie nor I will like it so it's a lot to do for only the dogs........ but I do tend to go all out for my dogs .... so I betcha I'll be making pemmican for them someday like your spoiled kitty.

Is there a recipe anyone knows of off hand that I might get a feeling for how hard it is to make? I should at least give it a quick look over.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2011, 03:18:03 am »
Found the thread on high meats -- I think I might be reading and finding things here forever ;)
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/new/#new
I asked there if ground meat can be used to make high meat. That might be another good way to preserve some of an entire larger animal if it won't fit in the freezer that would take up a smaller spot in the fridge.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2011, 09:08:09 am »
I like the taste of smoked meats that aren't heavily salted or cooked too, so I'm interested in smoking some of my own meats/fish as an occasional treat. The indoor pressure cooker smoker is interesting, but I don't need a pressure cooker, so I looked for cheaper, smaller options that just smoke and would work well and fit in my little condo short of storage space to cold-smoke raw foods and found this:

PolyScience Smoking Gun
http://www.cuisinetechnology.com/the-smoking-gun.php

Reviews:
http://www.alcoholian.com/?p=6032
http://www.examiner.com/outdoor-cooking-in-sacramento/cold-smoking-shootout-the-smoking-gun-handheld-food-smoker-part-i
Smoking Gun Smoke Infuser.m4v
The downside would be that the smoke wouldn't be as thoroughly infused with the smoking gun.

Smoking reportedly doesn't prevent replication of pathogenic microbes as well as freezing does.

I've tried aging ground meat with good results in the winter but poor results in the summer. At higher temps it became a haven for bad microbiota that made it taste disgusting (in contrast, I do not find the taste of properly aged or high meats to be disgusting). Sliced steak was less prone to the problem. Perhaps it's because ground meat provides low-oxygen pockets for pathogenic facultative and obligate anaerobes to thrive in, especially once a crust formed on the surface of the ground meat and thus sealed off the inside.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 09:13:58 am by PaleoPhil »
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2011, 03:57:48 pm »
PP,
smoking is very easy i used to smoke my own salmon. Take  a large pan and put some shredded beechwood in it. make a rack from chicken wire and put it in so you can suspend the meat a few inches above the wood. put the lit on and fire up your stove(if you have one). You can experiment with different woods. beech is the safest and easiest to get. Oak is very nice but hard to get.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 05:00:06 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline RawZi

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2011, 07:50:55 pm »
make a rack from chicken wire and put it in so you can suspend the meat a few inches above the wood. put the lit on and fire up your stove(if you have one).

    Is that the cold smoking or the hot smoking?
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: What's worse, smoked or frozen or deydrated?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2011, 03:56:11 am »
    Is that the cold smoking or the hot smoking?
you can control that yourself by the height of the rack, size of the pot and off course how high you turn the stove
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preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

 

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