Author Topic: Supplementing; what do u recommend?  (Read 17933 times)

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Offline Duke

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Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« on: February 04, 2012, 01:35:20 pm »
Hi everyone, I am new to the Rpd, and I am still in a transitional stage from a whole foods diet to Rpd. I do eat raw eggs, raw fish, and raw liver as a starter.

I do know that Rpd doesn't recommend supplementing and getting all the benefits from eating (diet) but I lead a stressful job that can span 75 hours weekly, and that's just my dayjob. I also don't have access to grass feed meat like most of you do. Hence I want to turn to supplementing along with the most healthy diet I can get.

I used to take raw eggs as a protein source after intense workout, but then I read on mercola.com that it would take almost upto 3 hours to assimilate the proteins in the eggs by the body, which makes me miss the 2 to 3 hrs after workout which is best to take proteins. Whey protein is apparently bio-available and can be easily absorbed after workouts, but apparently it should be natural and not an isolate. Mercola offers this type of Whey on his website so I thought I would ask if anyone of you guys who is into high intensity workouts has tried it. What are your recommendations?

For anti-stress / anti-oxidant sources, mercola.com highly Promotes COQ10 and astaxanthin which is apparently the best antioxidant out there. I have to admit the information claimed on the site is actually quite fascinating it's almost close to science fiction.

What is your verdict? Are those anti-stress / pro-workout products genuine ones?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:27:52 am by TylerDurden »

Offline KD

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 02:11:24 pm »
I'm not typically a cynic, or even a naturalist, but you say Mercola says you need to get protein within a window and that only the protein he sells works within that window?

anyway, I see no problem with trying that stuff out if you are transitioning or whatever. The more I progress, I realize that certain modern "advancements" will in fact yield results with performance or even basic stuff like making your own natural workout drinks or other PWO stuff that is more targeted. That said, I personally have seen no problems eating meats or eggs or any animal food after a workout to get some decent results without any additional crap. Whether that is the best I don't know. I typically do eat within an hour or so after working out FWIW.

As for general health supplements, there are a lot of mixed viewpoints in the larger world about these and mostly you'll just hear negatives here, so i'd say similarly, do what makes sense to you and then if you find yourself eating more of this kind of lifestyle long term and have an open mind, you'll decide what things work or don't or are needed or not.

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 02:23:24 pm »
Kd, I didn't say mercolas protein is the only one that works. His theory is that if you drink whey protein with raw eggs it will slow the absorption and you will miss the window of two to 3 hours when your body is releasing the growth hormone which will aid in the growth of your muscle tissues.  You still get benefits from eating raw eggs and meats post workout but not as quick and efficient as wig drinking the whey protein alone. At least that's what I understood. He also is against all the protein isolates products and says it damages your health.

I am not really against supplementing especially if someone doesn't have access to the best foods at all times but my concern is about the integrity of the products normally because there are a lot of people out there who are after the profits. The only supplements I have taken so far are just probiotics. As you see, I don't normally supplement but with lots of stress at work I wouldn't mind opting for an antioxidant agent.

What type of shakes do you take post workout?


Offline KD

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 02:52:55 pm »
I generally havn't done much of any of that, but then again, i'm not a massive guy.

I just recently started doing some pre workout stuff (OJ/eggs) and that vibes more with how i'm eating and working out currently. I've been screwing around with pollen as well but hard to judge really. Thats why its best to just try stuff, maybe for 2-3 months. I think meat and fat (or carbs) should be fine (or excellent) after workout.  You might want to look into the "Superhuman Radio" broadcasts on raw bodybuilding which has some hints at some (Primal Diet inspired) shakes and such. There should be links on this forum. I'm really not one of those folks who discounts something by its packaged-nature, but in this case I don't see whey in a package as being superior to meat. At most they might each have pros and cons. You can actually get raw whey from some farms and i've heard of some folks doing that and i've tried it but I don't think that is magic either.

My understanding is raw eggs digest like in 15 mins or less, but then again i've never read that in a credible journal. I guess if you were to buy the whey, you might as well follow his recommendations.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 11:53:00 pm »
I would avoid egg whites. I notice I feel a lot better when I only eat the yolks.  Also, my cat would always eat the yolk, never the white.

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 02:12:15 am »
I used to take raw eggs as a protein source after intense workout, but then I read on mercola.com that it would take almost upto 3 hours to assimilate the proteins in the eggs by the body, which makes me miss the 2 to 3 hrs after workout which is best to take proteins.
So why don't you eat the eggs like 1-2 hours before you exercise then? By the time you're done they will be ready to assimilate.
Anyway, this pre/post workout stuff is mostly marketing tricks if you ask me. I remember reading a study comparing whey hydrolysate (extremely fast digesting and expensive) and casein (slow) for post workout, and the casein turned out to be much better utilized by the muscles.
I would avoid egg whites. I notice I feel a lot better when I only eat the yolks.  Also, my cat would always eat the yolk, never the white.
I have same experience. For me the egg whites are digesting way too fast, which tells me something is wrong. Then I learned they inhibit trypsin which is necessary for protein digestion, effectively making their protein not very available when eaten raw. Depending on how many you eat at once, they may deactivate most of the enzyme.

Offline Aria320

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 02:43:33 am »
I don't really consider whey protein a supplement, as it is a complete food that comes from cows and is processed into a powder. It is definitely not as fresh as consuming something like raw milk or raw or even slightly cooked grass fed meat, but it still has many of it's nutrients in tact, as well as the bio-available protein and amino acids.

I use One World whey protein, which is pasture raised whey protein concentrate. As for "post workout" nutrition, i don't really know how much of a difference it would make because i haven't experimented. I think it really matters what your consuming over the course of the entire day (i.e total macronutrients). You want to make sure you're getting optimal amounts of protein and carbs because both of those things are very important in building or maintaining muscle. The rest of it depends on consistent training. You don't have to even lift heavy, just lift something that you could do at least 5 or 6 reps to that is challenging at the same time. You will know if it is somewhat challenging if you feel a burning sensation or increased heart rate obviously.

Anyway, i wouldn't be too concerned about post workout nutrition, though you might want to consume "something", just don't think about it too hard. Meal timing is all bullshit imo. (look up intermittent fasting for instance) With that said, i think whey protein is very beneficial to building muscle and getting healthy protein and amino acids in your diet. The quality of the protein is very important and i think mercola says a pretty superb product, even though it is quite pricey. If price is an issue, i would use the whey protein every other day or days when you work out.
sorry for the long post!_

Offline storm

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 08:51:27 am »
Do you think one world whey is the best out there?
Does it taste and mix well?

Offline Aria320

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 11:49:49 am »
I have been taking the vanilla flavor (which is made with organic ground vanilla bean, not natural flavoring and stevia extract :p)  The taste is truly amazing, as far as mixing i can't complain either. If you use a blender, you definitely should not have a problem. I tried mixing 2 scoops once with some dandelion root tea in a mason jar and shaking it for a good minute or so, and there were some particles of whey still left over. To be honest, i don't mind the particles because the taste is so good even when it is not dissolved.

 I want to try mixing it with some raw honey and blueberries to make a pudding type consistency similar to how some people do with colostrum powder.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 01:44:25 pm »
Remember that that kind of whey in jars is usually not coming from grass-fed cows - but from antibiotic and hormone riddled cows and is processed probably at high heat no?

I make my own fermented whey from grass-fed. That's they whole food and if you can do that all the better I would imagine.

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 09:07:26 pm »
Apparently the mercola whey is made from organic grass fed cow dairy. The proteins are broken down by the bacteria and then the whey is cold pressed to get the powder. So the heat element isn't included. Also the whey isn't made of protein isolates like most of the whey products. Isolates are proteins deprived from their cofactors and this process involves heating and acid processing which will cause health problems on the long run. Another reason why the powder doesn't dissolve instantly in water for example.

That's all in theory, haven't tried it yet but one reviewer said that the chocolate flavored powder didn't dissolve instantly in water so it makes you wonder ...

Offline Aria320

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 10:20:21 am »
One world whey is cold processed as well. i would try mercolas, but one world whey is cheaper.

Offline storm

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 01:53:07 am »
for one world, do you use the whole scoop?
it says half a scoop is a serving (30g) and contains 25g protein, that seeems like a lot of protein for a small amount...

i been using the whole scoop, which would be 50g protein?

i really love this protein, i wish it wasnt soo expensive, i could easily consume 2 full scoops (4 servings, 100g protein) daily

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 11:12:46 pm »
If my memory serves right, the mercola whey is 20g per scoop (I ve finally tried it) a serving consists of 2 scoops and I take 1 serving after workout which is like 3 times per week.

I think whey protein is  a good supplement to add to the diet, it also improves the immune system among other things.

My advice is to  use it after workouts; and take only 1 serving. That would ensure ur whey supply will not dry early.


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Supplmenting; what do u recommend?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 08:26:24 am »
I've noticed that higher quality egg whites taste better than lower quality ones (and my favorite egg whites so far are duck egg whites) and Chris Masterjohn has reported on the science re: potential benefits from eating raw egg whites:

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Heck, even — shudder — raw egg whites may give a glutathione boost in some people comparable to that given by raw milk!

Raw Egg White — The Trusty Sidekick?

The researchers searched over thirty publications identifying the sequences of edible plant and animal proteins and concluded that the only two types of protein in the food supply containing these unique bonds are whey proteins and egg white proteins.  They noted the following:

It may also be noteworthy that from time immemorial, whey from raw milk and/or undenatured raw egg white have been administered to children and to the sick as prophylactic or therapeutic measures in folk medicine.

I have heard of a number of cases of people benefiting from including raw egg whites in their diet.  It should be noted, however, that raw egg whites contain substances that inhibit digestion and decrease the availability of biotin.  Some people may benefit from their apparent glutathione-boosting ability, and this may be especially important for people who cannot tolerate milk, but in others the risk of biotin deficiency or digestive troubles might outweigh this benefit.  Intestinal flora produce biotin and egg yolks are loaded with it.  Maintaining proper intestinal flora and eating plenty of egg yolks may allow some people to reap the benefits of raw egg whites if they do not have trouble digesting them.

The Biochemical Magic of Raw Milk and Other Raw Foods: Glutathione
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 08:41:52 pm »
I can see why someone on an rpd might consider supplementing things like Vit D, Magnesium and other micronutrients. Why someone following an rpd would want to supplement a maconutrient is beyond me. If you eat a reasonable amount of animal produce it's pretty much impossible to need any additional protein. And if so just eat more meat, nicer tastier, cheaper, better.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 08:52:12 pm by TylerDurden »
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 04:24:08 am »
I can see why someone on an rpd might consider supplementing things like Vit D, Magnesium and other micronutrients. Why someone following an rpd would want to supplement a maconutrient is beyond me. If you eat a reasonable amount of animal produce it's pretty much impossible to need any additional protein. And if so just eat more meat, nicer tastier, cheaper, better.

Yep.

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 10:22:28 pm »
For many reasons, some of which are:

1) Taste; tastes good for a change
2) a source of easily absorbable proteins and amino acids
3) more effective than any other food or protein source after workouts
4) easy to prepare and takes little time too
5) excellent immune system builder / educator
6) best source of glutathione.

I supplement on high quality whey protein not more than three times a week; 1 serving only every time .

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 10:38:52 pm »
1) Taste; tastes good for a change
To each his own but i prefer a good piece of meat over those horrible shakes!
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2) a source of easily absorbable proteins and amino acids
So are eggs, meat, dairy
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3) more effective than any other food or protein source after workouts
Very doubtfull. If a workout was intense enough to trigger the growth reflex your body will grow. Whey is a very fast digesting protein so maybe recovery (which comes before growth) starts a little faster. However if the body is triggered into adaptation it will as long as reasonable nutrients are provided. The adaptation is triggered by training and made possible by nutrition. Do you really doubt proteins from meat eggs etc will not provide enough nutrients for growth whereas some protein isolate will??
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4) easy to prepare and takes little time too
IMO cracking an egg or just taking a piece of meat from the fridge is just as easy/fast if not faster.
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5) excellent immune system builder / educator
Possibly. However I think the whole product does equally well.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 11:01:21 pm by TylerDurden »
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 01:51:18 am »
From your quote Phil,

"Intestinal flora produce biotin and egg yolks are loaded with it.  Maintaining proper intestinal flora and eating plenty of egg yolks may allow some people to reap the benefits of raw egg whites if they do not have trouble digesting them."

Does the egg yolk then have enough biotin to counteract the egg whites' biotin destructive tendencies? If so, then it sounds like you gain glutathione by eating the white alone and you gain biotin eating the yolk alone (probably other things too).

One of the things I always have to ask is the difference between non-fertilized and fertilized. I just found out that my unfertilized eggs stay fresher much longer than fertilized ones. I betcha that the nutrient profile of fertilized and unfertilized is quite different.

As for FRESH RAW FERMENTED whey - I stopped giving it to my chickens. They stopped laying. I started again, they started laying again - even though they are old - at the same rate they always did. I had tried feeding them raw whole grass-fed cow meat/organs and that didn't do the trick. The whey was different than the meat for them. Makes me wonder.

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 09:45:48 am »
Th egg yolk doesn't have enough biotin to counter the inhibitor in the whites. It will take time to get a biotin deficiency but it's something that will happen if you don't take this into consideration.  I still eat raw egg white but sometimes I eat raw yolk and cook the white. I enter change this every now and then

Offline van

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 10:00:20 am »
Dorothy the whey these guys are talking about is a protein isolate, or is just the protein from the whey.  Whey in tack is mostly lactose, some protein and some minerals and water.  So your chickens were getting more than protein.  Got to wonder if they'd lay with just the protein from whey protein powder? 

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 10:10:05 am »
Does the egg yolk then have enough biotin to counteract the egg whites' biotin destructive tendencies?
It likely varies depending on whether the egg is fertilized and the condition of the person's gut and who knows what else.

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If so, then it sounds like you gain glutathione by eating the white alone and you gain biotin eating the yolk alone (probably other things too).
Presumably, healthy individuals who are not too negatively impacted by the avidin would gain both by eating both. This makes evolutionary sense. If humans have been eating raw eggs in various stages of fertilization and embryonic development for millennia and benefiting, and if baby birds benefit by eating the raw egg whites they are born into, which they seem to, then it wouldn't make sense for healthy humans to be damaged by eating whole raw eggs in reasonable quantities. This brings to mind Tom Naughton's simple principle: "Let's start with one simple idea: Mother Nature isn't stupid. She didn't make human beings the only species that prefers foods that will kill us."

Some folks talk about separating the yolks out being natural, but if you've seen wild eggs you know that many of them are quite tiny. I find it hard to believe that our primate pre-human, proto-human and early human ancestors would have spent time separating the yolks from the whites of wee eggs, especially before the invention of wooden bowls and cups, and I've never witnessed that with any egg of any size in any video or write-up of hunter-gatherer peoples I've seen. If it were standard practice, then surely we'd have seen at least one example by now.

On the contrary, I have seen old-time rural American and Chinese folk portrayed in movies poking a hole in an egg and sucking out the entire raw contents, which is what Aajonus does, interestingly. When you do this with a large egg, like an ostrich egg, you can then use it as canteen, which the Bushmen in South Africa traditionally did, and some still do: Eco-friendly Bushman ostrich egg canteen

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As for FRESH RAW FERMENTED whey - I stopped giving it to my chickens. They stopped laying. I started again, they started laying again - even though they are old - at the same rate they always did. I had tried feeding them raw whole grass-fed cow meat/organs and that didn't do the trick. The whey was different than the meat for them. Makes me wonder.
Sure, but then again, how does Joel Salatin of Polyface farms get his chickens to lay their world-famously-good eggs and how do wild birds lay eggs without benefit of whey dairy products?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:35:02 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2012, 11:04:34 am »
Dorothy the whey these guys are talking about is a protein isolate, or is just the protein from the whey.  Whey in tack is mostly lactose, some protein and some minerals and water.  So your chickens were getting more than protein.  Got to wonder if they'd lay with just the protein from whey protein powder?

Nope, we're talking about protein concentrates not isolates. It's just about as good as liquid whey.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 04:27:23 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline Duke

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Re: Supplementing; what do u recommend?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2012, 11:09:29 am »
Sometimes the chicken might not lay eggs because of adverse weather, little to no water and food for example. It might not be because of the whey. It could be for other reasons maybe.

 

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