Author Topic: wine  (Read 16306 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: wine
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2012, 07:34:56 pm »
Thanks Dorothy, and I already acknowledged that the studies don't prove anything conclusively one way or another. That comes down to personal experience, and if there's a history of alcoholism in the family, it might be prudent to not experiment.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2012, 11:19:41 pm »
The people that you know that drink one glass of wine a day (5 ounces) end up with serious issues Al? Pilots lose their licenses?

How many people Al have you known that drink one glass of wine a day and have ended up so sick? Are you sure it was the one glass of wine a day and not other things? How many of those people are like Troll and eat a raw paleo diet and how many eat cakes and cookies and lots of fried foods too?

This time Al you are refuting the scientific data that Phil posted with incredibly unspecific anecdotes from your life. It's like if I said, "I knew this guy who ate raw eggs and ended up in the hospital" or the like.

5 - 15 ounces is the range. Please give us specifically how much the people you knew drank, how often, what kind of drink and what diseases you think they suffered from drinking it.

You know I love ya Al. This one though - gotta ask you for more hard data.
Yes pilots lose their licenses for medical reasons and it's getting more commonplace as Doctors are obliged to report to gov't agencies. Past the age of 40 we get checked twice a year.

The people were not on a rpd as the people in the studies that Phil proffered and is also not the case with the very vast majority of the human race. RPD does not make one instantly invulnerable, nor does anything raw. Raw sewage would probably not be a good idea, fermented or otherwise.

The statement was 1 -3 glasses per day, and the studies I seriously doubt were on raw wines, however, I cannot imagine that drinking 3 glasses of wine would result in anything less than a lush. The thing is that these studies are typically loosey goosey nonsense not controlled for anything...

I you want to consume anything, go for it. Do not let fear hold you back. There is only one way to find out. Most people that I hang out with do and they are not dropping off like flies, but they tend to be regulars at the Docs is what I am saying.
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2012, 11:29:34 pm »
The original question was whether raw wine was healthier than regular wine.

My answer was roughly that small amounts are but in the amounts that people typically consume it is not.
Cheers
Al

Offline Dorothy

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Re: wine
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2012, 03:03:47 am »
Ok - I see Al. So you are saying that it's that people drink too much once they get started. That's often true - but not always. There are a lot of people that can and do stick to one glass.

I think a lot of it is about habit and cultural programming.

I'm going to try it and see if I can stick to just 5 ounces in the evening when I feel like it would be good for me. I've always thought of alcohol as simply bad all around. The problem with thinking that it's bad, evil whatever is that if you think any amount is bad then there's no reason to stop.

If 5 ounces is good more could be bad - that changes for me how I think about the stuff.

I like the idea of being able to drink socially. It's freeing. It's a lot like being able to eat meat at someone home. I'm enjoying these new freedoms.

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2012, 03:59:03 am »
What I am saying has nothing to do with whether you should or shouldn't or if God will strike ya down, it is just a physical fact.

Dr Amen in his books describes reduced blood flow to the brain of people who consume (any and particularly regularly) alcohol. This is not just during the act but the long term effect of it. It's also not a guess, as he is using brain scanning equipment which does not make up a story or depend on 'studies'.

Autopsies of people who consume lots of alcohol also show this in the brain/body when compared with non-drinkers.

It's not like it you drink 2 - 4 glasses of wine/alcohol a day you suddenly are  a falling down wastrell.

Alcohol is used to kill bacteria in open wounds, so why would it act differently in the gut/blood system etc?
Cheers
Al

Offline Dorothy

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Re: wine
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2012, 04:24:55 am »
I think I get what you are trying to say Al.

What I'm asking is when you say "lots of alcohol" what are you talking about?

Did Amen do tests on people that have a small glass of wine with dinner each night - or just once or twice a week? 

Obviously an alcoholic is going to have a shriveled brain and nasty liver. I think though what Troll and Phil are talking about is quite different.

Also, I was shocked at what they consider a glass of wine in the studies. Most people unless they are particularly sensitive wouldn't get sloshed with 5 ounces. 10 ounces or 15 ounces maybe a tiny bit tipsy? Certainly not enough to keep them from driving. Most restaurant servings would be probably closer to 10 than 5 ounces. One of my wine glasses, which are normal every day wine glasses that you see everywhere, hold 12 ounces. One of my glasses would be considered 2 glasses of wine in the studies. Certainly - if you are thinking about those regular glass servings 3 glasses would be way too much. That would be 30 ounces instead of 5 - 15. 

I think we have to talk in ounces not in glasses and be specific about results from how much wine we are talking about.

Kombucha with some alcohol and mead etc. still provide good bacteria to the gut. We're not talking about everclear here. It's a question of degree I think.

Almost every food can have bad effects/attributes ESPECIALLY if made in ways that are
non-traditional/chemicalized/highly heated etc., and when they are ingested in too high of quantities or too often. The question is always is how much you are eating drinking tipping things to the overall positive side or the overall negative side.

I don't think I should stop eating fruit or nuts because if I eat more than what is right for me I get ill-effects. I know that when I eat the right amount I get really good effects, even if they both have some things in them that could be very bad if taken in excess.

I'm starting to wonder if the same holds for wine?

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2012, 04:32:17 am »
Did Amen do tests on people that have a small glass of wine with dinner each night - or just once or twice a week? 
I don't have the time to search the book for the exact quote, but basically he says that alcohol causes brain damage... period. Drink a little get a little damage, drink a lot, get a lot of damage. Your choice.

He didn't do a study of specifics, just goes by what people tell him and those who lie are only lying to themselves as any fool can see it. After 10,000 scans patterns emerge.

Doctors tell you it does no damage. That's good for business for them. These same quacks tell you chemo is good for cancer.
Cheers
Al

Offline Dorothy

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Re: wine
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2012, 04:47:59 am »
You know that I respect Amen - because that's hard science with actual brain scans. Watching what coffee does to people's brains directly afterward drinking in terms of blood flow made the biggest impact of any argument to me.

It's just hard to evaluate what you are saying with Amen without the actual words. He has to go by what people say right? He's looking at long-term brain damage, not take this drink and then we take the scan right?

Also, when someone says they have a drink or two - that might be 20 - 30 ounces instead of what we are talking about here and we don't know what they actually drank right - like wine or vodka do we? 

I'd really love more information on his actual results - whenever and if ever you have the time. I should really just get his book myself and see I guess.

For him to say a little you get a little damage and a lot you get a lot of damage would take some seriously extensive studies. Those would be quite interesting.

I really don't want to touch the stuff if it will reduce the blood flow to my brain. I need that thing. ;)

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: wine
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2012, 06:08:03 am »
Since you challenged whether I could back up what I wrote, I hope you won't mind my asking some questions, Raw Al.

[Dr. Amen] didn't do a study of specifics, just goes by what people tell him and those who lie are only lying to themselves as any fool can see it. After 10,000 scans patterns emerge.
These studies are based on what people say. There is a wide gulf between what people say and do.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/is-alcohol-good-for-us/msg93210/#msg93210
Can you please explain this, Raw Al? Don't these points contradict?

Like you hinted at, Al, I go where the evidence takes me and don't just take the word of any expert or guru that comes along without asking for back up of their claims, and like you I don't have a horse in the race. Whichever horse the evidence favors, so be it. So did Dr. Amen publish his scan research and can you point me to a link or study title so I can check it out? Sorry, but I'm not going to spend time reading anyone's entire book without first checking whether they have any substance behind their claims (and I doubt you'd read an entire book just because I told you to). Was his research double-blinded and peer-reviewed? Has anyone replicated his results with scans of their own or other tests, or tested his methods or the device he uses? Does he have any conflicts of interest, such as products or books he sells or religious views on alcohol?

... I cannot imagine that drinking 3 glasses of wine would result in anything less than a lush.
You're not claiming that your inability to imagine that represents evidence or invalidates any studies or anyone else's experience, are you?

The original question was whether raw wine was healthier than regular wine.

My answer was roughly that small amounts are but in the amounts that people typically consume it is not.
What are you basing that answer on? Has Dr. Amen or anyone else investigated the health effects raw wine?

Alcohol is used to kill bacteria in open wounds, so why would it act differently in the gut/blood system etc?
Honey and coconut oil also are used to kill bacteria in wounds and I haven't heard of them causing any substantial harm in the gut/blood system in the general population. That's not to say that alcohol is the same as honey or coconut oil, just that your question seems to be a non sequitur.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 06:21:50 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2012, 06:35:44 am »
Since you challenged whether I could back up what I wrote, I hope you won't mind my asking some questions, Raw Al.
Can you please explain this, Raw Al? Don't these points contradict?
They are referring to two different conversations.
1 - My mention of Dr. Amen's brain scans
2 - your mention of studies that show......
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2012, 06:39:38 am »
You're not claiming that your inability to imagine that represents evidence or invalidates any studies or anyone else's experience, are you?
Yikes three negatives! Did you go to law school ?  ;D
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2012, 06:58:35 am »
What are you basing that answer on? Has Dr. Amen or anyone else investigated the health effects raw wine?
OK so where is your research done doble blind etc, on how raw wine is inoffensive to the body?

The 'research' to which you alluded was not on raw wine and not on RPDers and I cannot imagine how it was done double blind.

Dr Amen started out as a psychiatrist (clinical neuroscientist, psychiatrist, and brain imaging expert who heads the world-renowned Amen Clinics. This comes from the jacket on his book.) who had the usual SAD diet, no exercise and worked his *ss off. Typical modern person.

At some point he had some issues which led to him changing directions in life, exploring diets, exercise, etc, probably like most people on this site.

Can't recall exactly at what point he discovered : "single photon emission computed tomography, (SPECT) a nuclear medicine study that looks at blood flow and activity patterns. It looks at how the brain works.

It is different from computerized axial tomography (CAT) or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans which are anatomical scans that show what the brain physically looks like. SPECT shows how the brain functions. Over the last 22 years, Amen Clinics has built the largest database of brain SPECT, now totalling over seventy thousand scans on patients from 90 different countries.

In his book he shows lots of pics of brain scans of people with healthy brains (smooth, soft curves, lush full appearance) and unhealthy brains ( full of craters, holes, missing sections, bumps, etc depending on the severity of personal abuse)

As far as the studies you mention, that stuff is hogwash. How do you prove how much someone drinks daily. Nobody wants to admit the full extent of the alcohol use/abuse. Generally people underestimate their alcohol use just like people who overeat tend to do. Those studies I saw were that people who 'reported'  ;) drinking such and such.

Since he is a therapist, he interviews people personally and after scanning them talks to them and gets to the truth or at least closer than what a researcher would.

The people who go to his clinic pay for the service and he simply shows them the results and gives recommendations based on what he sees and from understanding;
brain physiology and
seeing how when people change habits and the effect it garners
he indicates a course of action for them.

I think he is Jewish but I am not positive. I think that Jews are not prohibited from alcohol use.

He says in some places in his book  (essentially) for people to eliminate or seriously cut down on alcohol use.

Alcohol is not the only thing that he mentions. Recreation and allopathic drugs, brain injury are biggies and he has some football players who have gone to him for treatment and have given up lucrative careers because of his showing them what the results of football are. He is really down on allopathic drugs and discusses at length why psychiatrists prescribe them and why they are generally useless, counterproductive and addictive.

He sells various things for brain health including supplements, but he also suggests it is best to get them naturally. Some extreme cases he would point people towards supplements. However this has nothing to do with alcohol consumption or this conversation.

Our bodies are capable of handling various and sundry types of abuse and surviving and he shows lots of case histories of people who mended their ways and saw dramatic changes in brain health.

You are free to believe what you want about alcohol BTW, but bear one thing in mind, what you have told me so far is your 'belief', AND what I have given is my 'belief' based on a loose bit of the evidence from his scans. Loose because it is not a RPDer consuming raw wine.

In Ayurveda alcohol is considered to be a super-sweet taste and it is a substitute for love, in the same way that sugar in general is.

I agree with your discussion about high meat etc. and I know people who ate their own version of raw meat as a large staple part of their diet,  but what my statement was/is that drinking any more than a small amount of raw alcohol periodically, is not a health inducing habit.

BTW he mentions nothing about our diet and if I had the money to throw around I would find it fascinating for someone who is a long-time hard core RPDer to have a scan to see what there is to see. I think we'd come up smelling roses.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 07:57:05 am by raw-al »
Cheers
Al

Offline Alive

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Re: wine
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2012, 07:09:55 am »
Thanks Al for giving me a reason not to drink wine, at least not often, this could save me a lot of money, and anyway my wife is a keen wine drinker so best for me to leave it all for her... and spend my money on something more fun  -d 


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: wine
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2012, 07:17:46 am »
Quote
Quote from: raw-al on Yesterday at 03:32:17 pm
[Dr. Amen] didn't do a study of specifics, just goes by what people tell him and those who lie are only lying to themselves as any fool can see it. After 10,000 scans patterns emerge.

Quote from: raw-al on June 02, 2012, 12:40:27 pm
These studies are based on what people say. There is a wide gulf between what people say and do.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/is-alcohol-good-for-us/msg93210/#msg93210

They are referring to two different conversations.
1 - My mention of Dr. Amen's brain scans
2 - your mention of studies that show......
Yes, could that perhaps be why you didn't notice the seeming contradiction? In the case of the studies you indicated that "studies" have a problem of being based "on what people say" because "There is a wide gulf between what people say and do," whereas in the case of Dr. Amen it is apparently OK that he "just goes by what people tell him," even though some apparently "lie." Would you please explain this?

Yikes three negatives! Did you go to law school ?  ;D
So you choose not to answer the question? How about any of my other questions? I'll answer yours--no, I did not go to law school. ;D I do like to ask questions and swap information, though. I find it to be a good way to learn things and I enjoy learning. I don't find I learn as much when I just tell people stuff. I occasionally encounter folks who don't like questions, so if you don't want to answer, that's fine.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: PaleoPhil on Today at 05:08:03 pm
What are you basing that answer on? Has Dr. Amen or anyone else investigated the health effects raw wine?
OK so where is your research done doble blind etc, on how raw wine is inoffensive to the body?
Isn't the one who makes the claim generally the one who provides the research? I don't even drink wine (didn't find one that suited me well, though I might try raw wine out of curiosity if that ever becomes feasible--so far one brand of mead is the only alcoholic beverage I've found that I seem to tolerate well enough to drink more than 10 oz. at a time and more frequently than rare occasions) and am not recommending it to anyone, nor do I want anyone emulating me (I would rather that folks think for themselves), and like I said, I have no horse in the race. I've been a teetotaler in the past and I might even return to that some day.

It's just hard to evaluate what you are saying with Amen without the actual words. He has to go by what people say right? He's looking at long-term brain damage, not take this drink and then we take the scan right?

Also, when someone says they have a drink or two - that might be 20 - 30 ounces instead of what we are talking about here and we don't know what they actually drank right - like wine or vodka do we? 
Yes, excellent questions, Dorothy. Very open-minded of you. Thank you for helping me understand this topic better.

I know it's a controversial topic, but I'm not afraid of controversial topics, and sometimes the most verboten things can be some of the most interesting. Take high meat, for example. Society regards that as disgusting and deadly, yet I learned from people at this forum like Tyler that it actually may be health-promoting. I also learned about raw ale from Tyler. Before that I wasn't aware that there were any raw alcoholic beverages. And I've learned a number of interesting things from you, Dorothy, on other topics besides this one.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 07:48:05 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: wine
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2012, 07:09:29 pm »
EDIT: Alright, the jar doesn't say on it, but it looks like a half pint mason jar to me. I put in 4 Tbsp honey and then filled it half way with water and that's how I did it last time. But I can't say that that matters and I would think you could saturate the water with a lot more honey.
A half pint mason jar would be 1 cup, right? So half of that would be 1/2 cup. That seems small. Are you sure it wasn't more water?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: wine
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2012, 07:20:47 pm »
You have to remember I was only using it as sweetener and I use very little, I wasn't intending to ferment anything, that was an accident. When I'm out and I get a coffee on the go I don't sweeten it with anything at all, only add cream. I agree it is very small. But I'll keep you updated on this batch, I have it sitting on top of the fridge with a paper towel rubberbanded over as a lid.

And I'm not 100% certain about anything, I'm just trying to recreate what I did before to the best of my ability, that was a year ago or more, now and I was getting super baked at the time becuase I had grown a ton of reefer and was basically just working the farm and another local job. Experiment at your own risk with this info.

The basic info is correct though, half pint mason jar, raw honey, well water, sealed airtight, aired once a day or so at coffee/smoothie time in the morning, then resealed. Since people make different sweetness/dryness levels of mead when they make it with recipes, I would speculate that a different ratio of water to honey would simply affect that aspect of it, but won't know until further experimentation.

Offline svrn

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Re: wine
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2012, 08:40:23 pm »
havent gotten a chance to read all the replies yet. just updating that I drank about a third of a bottle of wine yesterday and did not like the feeling of being drunk AT ALL. Maybe if i did half as much id feel better but at this point i dont know if I even want to try again.
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Offline svrn

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Re: wine
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2012, 08:47:14 pm »
also I just glimpsed that someone said alcohol has been proven to cause brain damage 100%. All I have to say is, which alcohol was used? To say all fat is bad for you because a study proved that using gm soybean oil as their fat does not mean that other fats like raw suet are bad for you. But it also doesnt mean that something like raw organic wine isnt bad for you, im just saying, making such a statement as alc always does brain damage isnt very logical because ud need to study the particular type of alc such as raw organic wine.

I am totally open to raw wine causing brain damage though. especially after last nights experience.

also i think theres something to aajonus' claim that raw wine dissolves hardened fat deposits. Although I feel worse overall, I do feel that some things in my body have been "cleared" or broken down/flushed out and that I may feel better for it later. Like a mini detox or something.

perhaps a smaller dose would be appropriate.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: wine
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2012, 11:15:08 pm »
Yes, could that perhaps be why you didn't notice the seeming contradiction? In the case of the studies you indicated that "studies" have a problem of being based "on what people say" because "There is a wide gulf between what people say and do," whereas in the case of Dr. Amen it is apparently OK that he "just goes by what people tell him," even though some apparently "lie." Would you please explain this?
This is in reference to the fact that in studies, people are all asked a specific set of questions and there is a reliance on their honesty/memory to answer the questions, whereas in the case of a therapist like Dr. Amen, the people are asked questions about history of things such as alcohol consumption, diet and brain trauma. After the scans are complete and the therapist sees that there is an obvious difference between what they say and what shows up on the scan, the therapist can probe deeper with questions that might spark memories. This is not unusual and frequently even having a spouse or parent around who remembers things from the past or remembers how much a person 'really' actually drinks brings clarity or facts into the equation. With a questionnaire this is missing and therefore introduces large errors.

I know that my wife remembers details that have long escaped my conscious recall.  ;) :( ??? -[
Cheers
Al

Offline Dorothy

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Re: wine
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2012, 02:22:38 am »
I've been actually measuring wine in ounces Troll to experiment. Half a bottle of wine I know would put me under the table, give me a splitting headache and affect my functioning the next day. I'm not sure though that it means that drinking  less wouldn't be actually good. There are approximately 25 ounces in an average bottle of wine, so it is true that your half a bottle is still under the 3 glasses of wine limit (15 ounces). But I've also considered that because we eat differently our limit as to how much could be still beneficial might be different. So far, I've determined that 4 and 5 ounces of wine has little affect on me except mild enjoyment and relaxation which I imagine could possibly be beneficial. Which, I might add, is much less of an impact as even 1 ounce of coffee! As far as I'm concerned, for my system, coffee is much more deleterious in any amount and is much more addictive.

I'll do my experiments and report as this subject greatly interests me. I agree Phil that there are so many things that I never even contemplated as possibly good for me that I have learned are actually good for me from you. I'm willing to try this being very careful to be as honest as I can be with myself and you while using my measuring cup for accuracy.

I'm surprised that there is no manufacturer of traditional raw mead in the world. That would be much better to experiment with.

Have you discovered any more reasonably priced wines that you know for sure are raw Phil? The problem with drinking 4 or 5 ounces even if it's every day is that wine is supposed to be only kept open for 3 days in the refrigerator and if the wine is expensive that doesn't work well financially.

When it comes down to it - none of the studies really count including Amen when it comes to me or us because of our diets. No one can tell me for instance that a cup of coffee is good for me each day - and I know that because I know my own system. The only way I think to determine whether a little bit of alcohol is going to be good for me is to try it. I'm very used to trying things out on myself and listening to my body.

This will be a most interesting experiment.


Offline Haai

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Re: wine
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2012, 05:23:02 am »
I'm surprised that there is no manufacturer of traditional raw mead in the world.

There is.

Just to contribute to the topic of the thread: I have drank half a bottle of red wine every day for the past couple of weeks; occasionally a whole bottle. The only problem I notice is the urge to smoke a joint afterwards (especially after drinking a whole bottle), but I usually do not give in to the urge.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: wine
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2012, 05:57:38 am »
Do you have a link for that source for raw mead please Haai?
Mead would keep better for my experiments and then I can be sure I am using a truly raw product.
Thanks.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: wine
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2012, 06:44:00 am »
@Thoth:
The basic info is correct though, half pint mason jar, raw honey, well water, sealed airtight, aired once a day or so at coffee/smoothie time in the morning, then resealed.
Thanks. Brief tangent--What sort of smoothies do you make?

@Raw Al:
After the scans are complete and the therapist sees that there is an obvious difference between what they say and what shows up on the scan, the therapist can probe deeper with questions that might spark memories. This is not unusual and frequently even having a spouse or parent around who remembers things from the past or remembers how much a person 'really' actually drinks brings clarity or facts into the equation.
That would influence the data when some people are asked additional questions but not others, and possibly also suggest memories to the subject that did not actually happen. Some people are more suggestible than others. Just ask any hypnotist or hypnotherapist. What you're describing sounds more like clinical therapy than scientific research. Not that there's no value to it, but (as with surveys) clinical experience can only suggest hypotheses, not be considered proof or even solid evidence. If Dr. Amen is claiming that that is hard evidence, then I doubt that it has been peer reviewed.

@Troll:
making such a statement as alc always does brain damage isnt very logical because ud need to study the particular type of alc such as raw organic wine.
Yup, that's one of the limitations of most or all of the research on alcoholic beverages.

@Dorothy:
I've been actually measuring wine in ounces Troll to experiment. Half a bottle of wine I know would put me under the table, give me a splitting headache and affect my functioning the next day.
If I get that kind of reaction, then I don't touch the stuff again. I kept experimenting, usually the oldest, most traditional sorts of fermented beverages I could find, until I found some that had less negative effects, including one local mead in particular (WARNING: some other meads did a nasty number on me, so I found a huge range of effects even within the mead category).

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Have you discovered any more reasonably priced wines that you know for sure are raw Phil?
Nope. I found an online seller of non-mevushal raw wines, but the shipping cost was too much for my level of interest.

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The problem with drinking 4 or 5 ounces even if it's every day is that wine is supposed to be only kept open for 3 days in the refrigerator and if the wine is expensive that doesn't work well financially.
Yeah, when it comes to wine, I think it helps if you have a family of wine drinkers, as traditional wine-drinking societies like France tend to, so that the bottle gets shared and consumed within one day.

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When it comes down to it - none of the studies really count including Amen when it comes to me or us because of our diets. No one can tell me for instance that a cup of coffee is good for me each day - and I know that because I know my own system.
Yeah, there's quite a range of reports on coffee too, with some saying it has very negative effects to others claiming great benefits. Speaking of which, I've been experimenting with the lowest-heated coffee process I can manage, after doing some research online. I buy the lightest beans I can find (lighter means roasted at lower temps) and use a french press to make the coffee without using heat. So far the only benefit of this lower-heat process I notice is somewhat less belching, which doesn't surprise me, because I notice that the more a liquid (or some foods) is heated, the more I tend to belch. I don't know what causes that, though--maybe the heating makes it less digestible? It's rather odd and I don't expect anyone to believe me. Has anyone else experienced this?

@Haai:
Just to contribute to the topic of the thread: I have drank half a bottle of red wine every day for the past couple of weeks; occasionally a whole bottle. The only problem I notice is the urge to smoke a joint afterwards (especially after drinking a whole bottle), but I usually do not give in to the urge.
I notice that if I drink mead too many days in a row I start to develop a gunky film on my teeth and morning breath. I suspect that the carby liquid feeds the bacteria in my mouth. I'm more susceptible to issues from easily-digested carbs than most people.


Thanks for the input, folks.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 07:22:03 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: wine
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2012, 11:05:05 am »
I notice that the more a liquid (or some foods) is heated, the more I tend to belch. I don't know what causes that, though--maybe the heating makes it less digestible? It's rather odd and I don't expect anyone to believe me. Has anyone else experienced this?

@Haai:I notice that if I drink mead too many days in a row I start to develop a gunky film on my teeth and morning breath. I suspect that the carby liquid feeds the bacteria in my mouth. I'm more susceptible to issues from easily-digested carbs than most people.


It's possible you're swallowing more air when you drink hotter liquids. It might not be conscious at this point, just something you learned to do to avoid burning your mouth.

As far as the teeth film, I find that vitamin D seems to help in reducing that.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: wine
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2012, 11:12:34 am »
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If I get that kind of reaction, then I don't touch the stuff again. I kept experimenting, usually the oldest, most traditional sorts of fermented beverages I could find, until I found some that had less negative effects, including one local mead in particular (WARNING: some other meads did a nasty number on me, so I found a huge range of effects even within the mead category).

My question is whether it is just an issue of quantity. Half a bottle =  terrible reaction. 5 ounces =  positive reaction (as far as I can tell at this point with limited trial).

Phil - do you have sources where I could buy mead from? Mead would have an extended shelf-life unlike wine right?

 

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