Author Topic: Salt  (Read 40022 times)

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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Salt
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2012, 12:40:27 am »
Why?
here from wikipedia:
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Hydrochloric acid is formed in the following manner:

  *  Hydrogen ions are formed from the dissociation of water molecules. The enzyme carbonic anhydrase converts one molecule of carbon dioxide and one molecule of water indirectly into a bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) and a hydrogen ion (H+).
  *  The bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) is exchanged for a chloride ion (Cl-) on the basal side of the cell and the bicarbonate diffuses into the venous blood, leading to an alkaline tide.
  *  Potassium (K+) and chloride (Cl-) ions diffuse into the canaliculi.
  *  Hydrogen ions are pumped out of the cell into the canaliculi in exchange for potassium ions, via the H+/K+ ATPase.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Salt
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2012, 03:13:55 am »
  iguana do you think its a little bit ironic that, perhaps our ancestors did not use such specialized tools as salt grinders, and perhaps they did not also stare into computer screens and have lengthy discussions backed by hearsay and science about the minutia of diet
Jessica, your argument is often used as a reason why a raw paleo nutrition would be silly nowadays.  The fact that our ancestors didn’t do this or that doesn’t prevent me to use my computer, ride my bike, sail on my windsurfboards, drive my car. This forum is only about raw paleo nutrition (as its name implies), not about paleo lifestyle. Perhaps a completely paleo lifestyle would be better for us if it were still possible but that’s outside the field of this forum.  ;)

See discussion aid #1 in my signature (“I do what works best for me”). I'm not into re-enactment for re-enactment's sake. If something helps, I don't see the point of not doing something just because animals or ancestors didn't do it. Animals and ancestors can be a clue about what to do, but not the final answer.
It’s difficult to know what works best for us in the long run. For example, a lot of people feel fine with cooked modern food: coffee, beer, bread and cheeseburgers may seem to work best, but what about the long term?  >:

The whole raw paleo nutrition concept is based on the hypothesis of an incomplete adaptation to Neolithic foods and modern cooked foods. The precautionary principle logically compels us to avoid all those potentially harmful foods, even if they don’t immediately generate apparent troubles. A cooked Neolithic diet including a lot of dairy worked fine for me during several years. Troubles only appeared after decades. There are a lot of substances such as asbestos and certain chemicals which can cause much delayed troubles.  >D 

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If they found themselves consuming too much salt as a result, they could end the experiment.
How would they know that they consume too much salt? l)

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As I pointed out, salt is naturally mixed with seaweed, seawater, saltwater fish, land mammal blood, and it's in most foods, including veggies, as Hannah pointed out. The amount of salt in plants and animals varies depending on the salt content of the local soils, so adding salt might just raise the sodium level of a food up to the natural level it would have reached in an area with higher-sodium soils. I think you even mentioned that it's OK to add salt to water and drink it. So why is it OK to add salt to water and to eat foods that contain salt, but not to add salt to foods if one is still deficient in it?
I don’t remember having written that and I never did it myself. Adding salt to food may induce over consumption of that food. It seems evident that an unsalted food may taste bland and unattractive, but salted it may become palatable. The result may likely be that you end up by eating a food you should not eat, or that you eat too much of it, or that you eat too much salt.  >:   

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What evidence are you basing that on? Is that something GCB tracked? Did some Instinctos ignore GCB's advice on salt but follow all his other advice to the letter and suffer serious problems years later? If so, how many and how would he know that they didn't secretly ignore his advice on other matters?
No, nothing of those sorts. Once again, it’s obvious that some chemicals and asbestos as well as cooked, Neolithic and modern food neither kill nor make everybody ill on the spot, but may have deleterious effects in the long run, several years latter. :'( 

So where do I find this seaweeds and sea water? I don't live near the coast.
I mean you're being really extreme regarding processing here.
Whether I drink sea water or eat similar amount of salt that comes from that same sea water where the water has evaporated under the sun..
I never wrote that we shouldn’t eat sea salt from evaporated seawater.  l)
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You can push to be "in tune with your instincts", but obviously in some cases it can be dangerous, e.g. "I'm away from salty foods or waters but I won't eat salt as it will override my instincts".
I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example.  :)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Salt
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2012, 04:34:51 am »
I never wrote that we shouldn’t eat sea salt from evaporated seawater.  l)I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example.  :)
Sorry, I misunderstood your post :)
Eating salt by itself is not pleasant at all. Only way to eat salt by itself is then to put some in a glass of water and drink as much as you feel like?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Salt
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2012, 04:47:16 am »
Adding salt to food may induce over consumption of that food.
So if one is underconsuming food, then that could be a benefit, right?

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I never wrote that we shouldn’t eat sea salt from evaporated seawater.  l)I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example.  :)
That's the sort of sea salt I have been talking about from the beginning, and my understanding was that everyone else was too; so perhaps your concerns were not with what we were talking about, but with heated and refined table salt?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Salt
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2012, 05:04:41 pm »
So if one is underconsuming food, then that could be a benefit, right?
If one is under-consuming oranges, than salting them could be a benefit, perhaps?  ;D

Seriously, what could be the reasons for under-consuming a food? Because you have a limited amount of it or no access at all to it, most probably. In such cases, adding salt to something you don’t have would be of little help. ;)   

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That's the sort of sea salt I have been talking about from the beginning, and my understanding was that everyone else was too; so perhaps your concerns were not with what we were talking about, but with heated and refined table salt?
No, I mean that salting food is a recent invention (relatively to the evolution time scale) and thus the question arises, just as for grain, dairy and cooking: “have our ancestors been consuming salted food since a sufficiently long time for a complete adaptation to be achieved?” 

The experience shows that salting food changes its taste and thus the amount ingested, apparently distording the instinctive regulation. In most cases, one would eat less fruits if salted, but more fish and meat. Worse, salt may also cover the taste of a bad piece or part that wouldn’t have been eaten unsalted and thus shouldn’t be eaten. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Salt
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2012, 07:13:07 pm »
Seriously, what could be the reasons for under-consuming a food?
As with overconsumption, there are multiple potential reasons.

Thanks for the input.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Salt
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2012, 02:58:15 am »
Here's an interesting take on salt that differs with the standard demonization:
Quote
Shaking Up the Salt Myth: Healthy Salt Recommendations
http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-healthy-salt-recommendations

As you may realize by now, salt has had a very colorful history, both in the development of human civilization as well as public health politics in the past century. While salt was originally prized by many cultures for thousands of years, in the past century it has been demonized; some have gone as far as calling it the single most harmful substance in the food supply. Yet as we know, sodium plays a crucial role in optimal health, and too little salt intake can be dangerous in the long run. ....

 findings from a 2011 study demonstrate the lowest risk of death for sodium excretion between 4000 and 5990 milligrams per day. (1) Sodium excretion greater than 7000 milligrams or less than 3000 milligrams per day was associated with a higher risk of stroke, heart attack and death. This lowest risk range equates to approximately two to three teaspoons of salt per day. ....
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hanna

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Re: Salt
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2012, 11:54:08 pm »
There are instinctos and other raw food eaters in Germany who believe that one cannot digest proteins and in particular raw meat if one doesn´t consume sufficient amounts of salt. Therefore, they drink, for example, every morning a sea salt solution or seawater or (if they are not instinctos) they eat salted meat or the like. What do you think about that? Do you consume seasalt or seawater on a regular basis? I like seaweed, but if I don´t eat any seaweed I probably don´t consume much salt.

Well, until lately I wasn´t able to eat significant amounts of the unprocessed muscle meat of land animals (although I could and can eat liver, brain, bone marrow, fish etc.). When I tried to eat the muscle meat I sensed an early instinctive stop and when I ate the meat in spite of this stop, I didn´t digest it well.

Now my nutrition will certainly change a bit because I can eat the (completely unprocessed) meat of land animals now! In the previous days I ate a lot of bone marrow and tasted the meat and fat sticking on the bones. The meat (beef) and fat tasted delicious and there was no instinctive stop until none of the meat was left. I digested it well, so I bought a slice of pork and hang it into the fridge. I then tried to eat it - it tasted delicious and there was no early instinctive stop, so I could eat quite a bit of it. The quality was certainly not ideal (organic), but now that I know I´m able to eat significant amounts of meat I´ll try to get meat of better quality.

I didn´t eat any extra salt in the previous months (or even years?), so obviously no lack of salt was to blame that I wasn´t able to eat/digest significant amounts of meat.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Salt
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2012, 10:21:07 pm »
I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example.  :)

I got curious and tried a few crystals of himalayan salt.  Was repulsed by it.  Maybe I don't need it now.

When do you crave for salt?
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Salt
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2012, 04:59:59 am »
I brush my teeth morning and evening with seawater and when I feel like, I drink a bit of it. Otherwise I get salt from shellfish and seaweeds.

Cravings are often based on memory of the last time we ate a specific food and are thus unreliable (because our needs may have changed in the meantime). 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 05:32:23 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Salt
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2012, 06:40:46 am »
Hmmm... Do you live by the sea or do you have a method of storing sea water?
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Salt
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2012, 05:08:56 pm »
I'm at 145 km from the Atlantic coast, but I drive there a few times in summer to swim, walk along the beach, ride my bike and rest in the sand or in my hammock under the trees. Sometimes, I also fill several 5 liters drinking water containers with sea water and bring it home. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 05:42:44 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Salt
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2012, 05:45:37 pm »
I'm at 145 km from the Atlantic coast, but I drive there a few times in summer to swim, walk along the beach, ride my bike and rest in the sand or in my hammock under the trees. Sometimes, I also fill several 5 liters drinking water containers with sea water and bring it home. 

How long does sea water keep in the refrigerator?  Or do you just leave it out at room temperature?  Covered / sealed? Or open?
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Salt
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2012, 06:21:48 pm »
I just keep in the closed containers in the basement which must be between 10 - 20° C according to the season. I don't know if there a time limit... after about a year it is still good, I don't notice any difference.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Salt
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2012, 06:42:26 pm »
So how does saltwater compare to standard toothpaste? Personally, I only bother with using toothpaste as SAD-eating people don't like the smell of raw meat in the mouth. If I possessed millions, I wouldn't give a damn, but I have to earn a living....
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Salt
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2012, 07:28:01 pm »
Wow, thanks for the tip.  I will try this the next time I go to the beach
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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Salt
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2012, 11:13:05 pm »
So how does saltwater compare to standard toothpaste? Personally, I only bother with using toothpaste as SAD-eating people don't like the smell of raw meat in the mouth. If I possessed millions, I wouldn't give a damn, but I have to earn a living....
Just dissolve some salt in water and try, it's not like it will be tremendously different from actual seawater.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Salt
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2012, 04:21:49 am »
So how does saltwater compare to standard toothpaste? Personally, I only bother with using toothpaste as SAD-eating people don't like the smell of raw meat in the mouth. If I possessed millions, I wouldn't give a damn, but I have to earn a living....

Standard toothpaste has a very strong taste which deeply disturbs our taste buds and is made with chemicals which could be more or less noxious once in the mouth, especially when used daily and since we cannot totally avoid any absorption.

Perhaps a bit of lemon juice would be suitable to get rid of any unpleasant odor but I find it disturbing as well and too much citric acid too often may be bad for the teeth. 

When I stayed on Rotuma Island long ago, chief  Titofag taught me to brush my teeth in the lagoon and I found out that seawater was cleaning  them better than soft water. So, whenever I have seawater I prefer it to soft water, all the more so as tap water is generally chlorinated.   
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Salt
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2012, 06:32:16 am »
salt water is good, especially right from the ocean.  I like bentonite.  I make a paste out of it and use it every time I eat.  I floss with it also.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 07:12:48 am by TylerDurden »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Salt
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2012, 07:15:26 am »
Hmm, interesting. I draw the line at removing soap when I wash, but using saltwater for toothpaste sounds interesting. Just how much salt should I add to how much water, each time, though, and how long does it take for the salt to dissolve in the water?

I also need to add cold showers/baths to my standard routine. I get too lazy when having hot baths.
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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Salt
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2012, 03:13:01 am »
Seawater salinity is around 3%, so you'd dissolve 30g salt in a 1L water.

Offline Wai Kai Zen

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Re: Salt
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2013, 04:05:13 am »
Yes Wattelbird, I just forgot seaweeds as a source of salt!

Phil, yes it would be “relatively ok”… as it is relatively ok to think that we can master and reengineer the nature and the whole world, that we have the knowledge and power to control and shape everything, to cure what we perceive as inadequacies in the natural world such as redirecting rivers, genetically modifying plants and animals, cutting or burning the forest to plant crops, then spraying pesticides against weeds ands insects - especially when test results have revealed infestations - and so on.

That way of thinking based on human external diagnostic and prescription (instead of letting the nature to re-equilibrate itself) is precisely the one that is leading mankind to destroy the environment and the whole planet.

If someone has too low sodium levels in the bodily fluids, this person will very probably be attracted by raw, unprocessed and unmixed salted stuff such as seaweeds, shellfish, seawater or sea-salt crystals and spontaneously eat the needed amount to restore her equilibrium. I think such a phenomenon is called homeostasis;)

Cheers
Francois

I think equilibrium/homeostasis is what most people are lacking and this is what makes it so hard to 'read' the signs that our body gives us (feedback). I do believe what you say by taking things in their raw state to get them as close as possible to nature (as we were used to hundreds and thousands of years ago).
Following instinct to see what the body needs makes sense and to follow up on these instincts by taking that food in the raw state is probably the best you can do.
This might be why it makes it so hard for us all to come in agreement of what 'works'.

Peace
Reminder to myself:
Search for truth, not dogma.

 

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