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Offline sabertooth

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New approach
« on: October 03, 2012, 12:12:55 pm »
I've been working on a new approach that may help correct whatever imbalances that I had acquired.

I have been tring to find a suitable substitute for coconut butter, I tried real butter for a couple of weeks and it helped me gain back some weight, but it doesn't seem to digest very well. I have also tried adding some greens and one piece of fruit a day. The carbs helped increase my apatite, but the fiber interferes with my digestion. I am not sure if I will ever re-adapt to eating more plants, nor am I sure that its something I should keep tring at, if it gives me no good results.

Now I am going a different direction and would like to know if anyone has experience with using olive oil as a secondary fat source. I have been taking a swig out of the bottle between meals, and so far I have been tolerating it well.

I am also starting to eat chicken. The cartilage and bones are soft enough to chew up. Anyone else eat chicken bones?
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Offline AlphaCog

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Re: New approach
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 01:00:07 pm »
If you're going for plants I'd recommend fermenting them until they're real soft. That should make it easier on the digestive system. Even consider cooking(boil/steam/slow cook) them.

I've tried olive oil when I was first trying to "eat healthy". I gave me heartburn and possibly screwed my o3:o6 ratio, because my cognitive function was declining(absent-minded, learning difficulty, needed more sleep), but I was drinking like 4~10 tablespoons a day because I was trying to be low carb, I don't have other fat sources and because the oldest person on the planet uses it liberally :D. I was also eating 10~30 raw commercial eggs per day which may have overloaded my system(talk about farting factory).

« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:10:42 pm by AlphaCog »

Offline Polyvore

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Re: New approach
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 02:06:17 pm »
Quote
If you're going for plants I'd recommend fermenting them until they're real soft. That should make it easier on the digestive system.
I recommend this also. Secondly, when choosing fruits and vegetables choose ones with more soluble fiber than insoluble fiber. Thirdly, keep 4h on either side of the meal to help empty and seperate the plant matter from the meat matter... I find if I eat fish for breakfast, wait 4-5 hours, then eat plants, then wait 4h then eat meat for dinner I have no problems.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: New approach
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 05:41:29 pm »
what about avocado? i've been doing really well with them lately. i eat them with my meat. butter was working well for me for a while, but now it's not so i switched to a raw coconut oil. for some reason i still don't do well with the coconut butter and i'm too lazy to try making my own coconut creme again, but i will one of these days :)

Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 05:50:45 pm »
Yes, avocados, olives, safus, various nuts, whole coconuts, etc.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Alive

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Re: New approach
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 03:37:16 am »
There is also fermented coconut oil available, which was the traditional method of extraction:
http://www.coconutoilshop.co.nz/order-coconut-oil/speciality-range/

(personally, to keep things simple, I am just eating animal fat with no vegetable oil sources)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:45:19 am by alive »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 05:55:26 am »
We had a discussion here about olive oil that would be really good for you to read- but I can't find it with the search function! grrr.

The problem with olive oil is that most olive oils are rancid - old. You would need to find oil that has a HARVEST date on it. The longest an olive oil should be eaten from the harvest date is a year but I can start to taste the difference after 6 months.

Australia has better laws regarding labeling so those are often the best oils. Oils from Italy are often the worst because they will ship the crappiest stuff TO Italy, put it in a fancy bottle and charge a fortune for it because people believe that oil from Italy is the best.

In the last couple of decades I've only had good olive oil at two restaurants that imported their oils from small farms themselves and from Con Olio here in Austin. They do ship. Good olive is expensive - but it is my opinion that you shouldn't bother with  olive oil at all unless you get the good fresh stuff.

It was my impression that you had very good sources for animal fats no? I would stick with that unless you are willing to spend the bucks and time to find the best fresh pure olive oils. Most people btw cannot even tell when olive oil is rancid because they have never tasted or smelled fresh olive oil - it's that big of a problem. I tried every olive oil at WF and not ONE of them was fresh btw.

I personally ADORE my good olive oil! I like variety to my food preparation and good olive oil gives a fabulous peppery, sharp taste to foods that can't be beat. If it's fresh olive oil you would have a really hard time just drinking lots of it as it would burn the back of your throat. When olive oil is rancid it no longer burns and loses that pepper flavor.

Offline Alive

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Re: New approach
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 06:48:12 am »
All the olive oil I have tasted was horrible!

If I was to choose the tastiest oils to me are avocado and macadamia - yum yum :)

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: New approach
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 02:31:24 am »
If you want a high quality olive oil, get denocciolato. It's made from the flesh only, no pit.

Anyway, all oils tastes awful to me. Butter is the only thing that I could consider edible, but butter sucks for other reasons.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 04:36:56 am »
It doesn't matter what kind of oil, what brand, flesh or pit, virgin or not IF it is old/rancid. The MOST important thing about oil in general - but especially olive oil in particular - is the HARVEST DATE....not the press date because the olives could be around a half a year or a year before being pressed so that the oil is rancid while being made!

The only way to really know if your oil is fresh is to train your nose and palate and the only way to do that is to have fresh oil available to learn with. Someone to teach you helps too. ;)

Sabertooth - I guarantee your oil is rancid no matter how you feel from it and suggest you not drink it. No one can take a swig of fresh olive oil without burning up the back of their throat. If it doesn't hurt like hell what you are doing, then your oil is rancid.

aLp - if you never had fresh oil of course you would think that all oil is horrible because rancid oil is truly a horrible thing that is very bad for the body. It is extremely difficult to locate good oil. Sometimes the only way to do it is to make it yourself with fresh ingredients you have grown yourself. It's even difficult to find a fresh seed for sale these days in the store! You can't make fresh oil from rancid seeds. If you can't even buy a fresh nut or seed why think that the oil that could be years old on the shelf would be good for you? Oils do NOT get better with time like other foods do as they ferment. The fresher the better and it is now almost impossible to find fresh oils. I used to be able to get high quality oils easily so I know what they should taste and feel like. The standards seem to have gone through the floor and the few companies that were really doing it right seem to have gone out of business. I feel very grateful for Con Olio - but I miss all the other wonderful oils that I no longer can locate fresh. :(

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: New approach
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 06:21:14 am »
I have been tring to find a suitable substitute for coconut butter
I found the Wilderness Family Naturals centrifuged coconut oil that was recommended in this forum by multiple people to be vastly superior to Artisana coconut butter. I don't love centrifuged coconut oil, but Artisana coconut butter is one of my least favorite foods I've tried and made me nauseous, so the fact that I can stomach centrifuged coconut oil surprised me.

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Now I am going a different direction and would like to know if anyone has experience with using olive oil as a secondary fat source.
I occasionally use it as a salad oil.

I don't consider plant fats to be a necessity when there are animal fats, but I do eat some and like to try new things. Some other plant fat sources are macadamia nuts, hazelnuts, Brazil nuts, pecans, walnuts, olives, centrifuged olive oil, palm oil (I haven't seen a version advertised as both centrifuged and sustainable yet), durian fruit (available in California), unheated flaxseed oil or freshly ground flax seeds, allegedly raw cacao nibs and white chocolate, and ackee fruit (it's usually cooked, but can be eaten raw if prepared with care to avoid poisoning.

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Anyone else eat chicken bones?
Do you mean raw? I've only tried it so far with low-slow-cooked chicken bones.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 06:31:18 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Ioanna

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Re: New approach
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 10:53:38 am »
thanks to paleophil, i did just this week try wilderness family naturals centrifuged coconut oil and i love it!!!  it doesn't make me nauseas at all and i actually really like the taste.  they have a cold pressed coconut oil too, i didn't like that one as well.

agree on artisana... i don't like that one either.

i've not been needing much water at all these days in my workout so i think adding coconut oil as easy to digest fat did the trick for now. 

people who eat nuts.... you can actually digest them??, lol.  they go right through me just as they went in.   i don't get anything out of them.  i figure if i can ever actually get hold of some truly fresh ones i'll try again.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 11:22:32 am »
ionna - have you tried soaking, dehydrating and making your nuts into nutbutter? That's how Brian digests them. I don't seem to have problems with nuts, but my digestive fire seems to be pretty strong these days. I can tell however when a nut is rancid or old just like with the olive oil. Most nuts in the stores are just garbage. WF can be hit or miss. Some nuts it is extremely rare to find fresh in my experience - macadamias, cashews and hazelnuts come to mind. There's a shop here in Austin that only does nuts and sometimes I can get some fresh nuts from there but even that is hit or miss too.

Offline Polyvore

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Re: New approach
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 12:31:53 pm »
I love to douse my fatty white fish in olive oil and tangarine juice. I am sure I get some calories from that. You can make a nice sauce with a few tablespoons of olive oil, a single egg yolk, and some tangerine juice. No need to mix it into a mayonaise, just swirl it around some til its together.

I don't suggest taking swigs of anything between meals, just have proper meals and you will be fine, and have some time of digestive rest between hours.

Offline jessica

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Re: New approach
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2012, 11:13:30 am »
ive gnawed on raw chicken bones and love the cartilage.  only the end of the leg bones seems digestible, but i make sure to chew it down pretty well.  i like to crack the length of the legs with my teeth and try and get all the goodness and marrow out.  i dont like eating too much chicken though, i know there have been months were for whatever reason i have craved turkey, so that is basically all the meat/fat i ate, and definitely felt sore/swollen and weird after a while, i think it is because it is so omega 6 heavy, especially since i only had an "organic" source, not necessarily pastured and most likely heavily grain fed

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: New approach
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2012, 01:38:49 am »
thanks to paleophil, i did just this week try wilderness family naturals centrifuged coconut oil and i love it!!!
Glad to hear that, Ionna

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people who eat nuts.... you can actually digest them??, lol.
Not really, LOL. I rarely eat them, as I don't digest them well and don't notice any benefits from them, but they are a plant fat source for desperate vegans/vegetarians who need fat and there is evidence that humans and pre-humans ate them going back millions of years ("Early Humans Skipped Fruit, Went For Nuts" http://news.discovery.com/human/human-ancestor-diet-nuts.html).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2012, 01:55:33 am »
Yes, avocados, olives, safus, various nuts, whole coconuts, etc.

NO, it's all SHIT!  -d Absolute dog shit, with the exception of coconuts.

Löwenherz



Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2012, 02:40:10 am »
Could you expand and explain such a statement? There was nuts in the paleolithic, hunthers-gatherers and chimps eat nuts (see PaleoPhil's post just above). We have no problems at all with those foods as long as we eat them in the proper amount, the amount regulated by our instinct. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2012, 11:32:32 am »
I am totally with you on that Iguana!

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but they are a plant fat source for desperate vegans/vegetarians who need fat

ehem - I don't fit that description and I love nuts and the plant sources of fat listed! I feel like they add a lot to my diet. Perhaps I am a little desperate? I go crazy for fat in general - I also love suet, marrow, fatty fish, egg yolks etc. I like to think that I don't go overboard with any of them - but I might be wrong. I eat as much of any of those things as feels good to me. I digest them all just fine and they all taste good - as long as they are fresh.

The only way for me to really determine if they do some kind of long-term damage would be to give them up for a good long while and see if I feel any better or worse - which I have done with most of the things mentioned - but felt no big difference - unlike when I have given up other things (like dairy) and did feel a big difference.

Such prejudice against plants!  ;) The avocado is such a blessing, it's hard for me to imagine anyone feeling so hostile to my beloved avocados.   :-*

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2012, 04:00:28 pm »
Could you expand and explain such a statement? There was nuts in the paleolithic, hunthers-gatherers and chimps eat nuts (see PaleoPhil's post just above). We have no problems at all with those foods as long as we eat them in the proper amount, the amount regulated by our instinct. 

Iguana,

the VARIETY of plant fats you mentionend was never present in any paleolithic diet of any paleolithic man at any time.

Coconuts came from tropical Asia, safus from Africa, macadamias from Australia, avocadoes from South America etc. "Primitive" men were able to thrive on locally available foods, modern people following absurd "instincto" rules are not.

Olives, avocadoes, almonds and many other so called "healthy fat" sources are nothing else than overbred neolithic products like durians etc. Wild almonds and avocadoes are inedible and toxic. Nuts are full of antinutrients and enzyme inhibitors. It's a fact that humans are not able to digest nuts properly even if they taste wonderful. I love the taste of hazelnuts - always - but dog shit may be better for my body.

Our ancestors in Europe may have eaten some walnuts and hazelnuts ONCE in a year in times of scarcity. These nuts go rancid very quickly due to their high pufa content. Todays preserving technologies have not been available. Our ancestors have eaten a huge variety of fats from wild animals. Olive oil and other over-hyped neolithic plant products evolved out of scarcity. It's no coincidence that some of the greatest ancient fat sources like wisent and aurochs are extinct.

For my part, I can tell you that I know for sure that all commonly available plant fats with the exception of coconuts are not only completely unnecessary for my health but indeed harmful IF I use them as a substantial source of calories. I was so brainwashed about healthy plant fats and evil animal fats that I needed years to realize it. The healthy plant fats idea has exactly the same origin as the healthy whole grain madness. But I'm not saying that a handful of well preserved mold-free nuts will kill anyone. They are just as important for us as french fries.

There is overwhelming scientific evidence (see my next post) that an imbalance of w3 and w6 fatty acids causes a HUGE variety of human illnesses. Nuts and other unhealthy plant fats cause such imbalances. We are definteley no apes or squirrels for whom nuts are good food.

Löwenherz

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: New approach
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2012, 04:55:01 pm »
Our ancestors in Europe may have eaten some walnuts and hazelnuts ONCE in a year in times of scarcity. These nuts go rancid very quickly due to their high pufa content. Todays preserving technologies have not been available.
Nuts in their shell will keep for a looong time as long as they are in a dry place. I have hazelnuts that stay fine for a year and more, and they are not in a fridge..

There is overwhelming scientific evidence (see my next post) that an imbalance of w3 and w6 fatty acids causes a HUGE variety of human illnesses. Nuts and other unhealthy plant fats cause such imbalances. We are definteley no apes or squirrels for whom nuts are good food.
Please, you can never eat so much nuts that it will cause you w3/w6 imbalance.. oils and fats is a different thing, but I just can't imagine such imbalances from whole foods.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2012, 05:11:13 pm »
Nuts in their shell will keep for a long time as long as they are in a dry place. I have hazelnuts that stay fine for a year and more, and they are not in a fridge..
Please, you can never eat so much nuts that it will cause you w3/w6 imbalance.. oils and fats is a different thing, but I just can't imagine such imbalances from whole foods.

The nuts from the trees in my garden always go rancid quickly, even in the shell. Our paleolithic ancestors had no ovens.

Of course, you can easily eat so much bad whole foods that you get an imbalance in your body. Our brains are affected immediately as studies with depressive patients show.

Löwenherz


« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 07:09:26 pm by Löwenherz »

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: New approach
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2012, 06:59:15 pm »
Well hazelnuts and almonds from my garden are good for a year and more. Not sure why are you involving ovens now.
I really doubt that someone can eat more than 100g of nuts in a day, as many have said they are not so easy to digest raw.. so 100g of hazelnuts for example has 6g of omega 6. Almonds have 12g. If you think that those amounts will create you some imbalances then you're just paranoid in my opinion.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2012, 07:32:17 pm »
Well hazelnuts and almonds from my garden are good for a year and more. Not sure why are you involving ovens now.

Iguana was talking about nut consumption in paleolithic times. Nontoxic almonds didn't exist in that era.

And for hazelnuts you need ovens or warm dry air in heated homes to properly dry them. Otherwise they will be quickly full of aflatoxins which is a very potent carcinogen. That's the reason why raw nuts are not available in any foodstore.

And yes, an amount of 100 grams of nuts daily indeed causes imbalances no matter if you are already paranoid or not.

Löwenherz

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: New approach
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 12:00:27 am »
I am totally with you on that Iguana!

ehem - I don't fit that description and I love nuts and the plant sources of fat listed! ....
Hey! No fair! :) You left out this part of my sentence: "and there is evidence that humans and pre-humans ate them going back millions of years." I eat them too, just not a lot because I don't digest them well (which is likely largely due to my suboptimal digestion rather than to a problem of the nuts themselves), haven't noticed any benefits from them and am not thrilled by their taste unless I add dried fruits, which I tend to eat too much of, resulting in negative effects for me. I don't extrapolate that into thinking that nuts are of no use or even unhealthy for most or everyone and I may add Brazil nuts to my shopping list for the extra selenium, especially if I try the Lugol's protocol.

Olives, avocadoes, almonds and many other so called "healthy fat" sources are nothing else than overbred neolithic products like durians etc. Wild almonds and avocadoes are inedible and toxic.
True, though they are stand-ins for the plant fat sources that our ancestors ate going back millions of years, as pointed out in the article above. I suspect that the original African ones would be healthier and the Neolithic versions might still be healthy, even if not as much.

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Our ancestors in Europe may have eaten some walnuts and hazelnuts ONCE in a year in times of scarcity.
Grok wept. It seems like you're just making it up as you go along. At least this gives me a chance to show Dorothy that I'm not totally condemning nuts. While wild almonds were quite toxic in pre-Neolithic times, hazelnuts were not. Enormous middens of hazelnut shells have been found in Europe. Here is one example:

Quote
Archaeologists uncover 9,000-year-old hunter-gatherer house on Britain's Isle of Man

BY Alexandra Hazlett
DAILY NEWS WRITER

Updated Wednesday, August 12th 2009, 1:44 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/2009/08/12/2009-08-12_archaeologists_uncover_9000yearold_huntergather_house_on_britains_isle_of_man.html

What was life like 4,000 years before Stonehenge was built? Archaeologists have just uncovered more clues.

The scientists uncovered the ruins of a 9,000 year-old-house on Great Britain's Isle of Man, according to Discovery News.

The house is more than 9,000 years old, and one of the oldest and best-preserved specimens in Britain, the report stated. Curiously, the remains were surrounded by buried mounds of burned hazelnut shells, leading the archaeologists to speculate that the nuts were a major part of the hunter-gatherer inhabitants' diet. ....
You're also failing to consider the possible beneficial hormetic effect of small amounts of toxins: http://gettingstronger.org/hormesis/

I agree that nut/fruit fats are probably not as optimal as animal fats, but you're painting an excessively negative picture that isn't supported by the evidence.

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These nuts go rancid very quickly due to their high pufa content. Todays preserving technologies have not been available.
Yet primitive Africans process and eat mongongo nuts, bambara groundnuts (a legume that's related to the peanut, but is edible raw and unblanched, as is the S. American groundnut, aka "jungle peanut" http://www.rawguru.com/store/raw-food/raw_wild_organic_jungle_peanuts.html) and palm oil using only simple tools--sometimes nothing more than a rock crack open nuts or fire to roast nuts to make them easier to open by hand.
Bambara Groundnut - Foodskey

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The !Kung San of Botswana

The !Kung diet is predominantly composed of plant foods. 

By far the single largest source of calories is the mongongo nut and the fruit that surrounds it.  The fruit is eaten raw or gently stewed in a metal pot (a relatively recent introduction).  The nuts are roasted, shelled and eaten plain.  During certain parts of the year, they eat almost nothing but mongongo nuts.
- Stephan Guyenet, PhD, http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/06/food-reward-dominant-factor-in-obesity.html
While the Bushmen likely ate less nuts in the past when meat was less scarce, they don't appear to be faring that badly on a nut-heavy diet, despite the evil PUFAs. No one has yet bothered to offer an explanation or counter-evidence regarding that, despite all the heated rhetoric here and elsewhere. It seems like the focus is more on winning debates than understanding.

Heck, even chimps process and eat nuts...
Chimps cracking nuts with stone tools ...so the idea that past humans couldn't have without modern kitchen gadgets is ridiculous.

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For my part, I can tell you that I know for sure that all commonly available plant fats with the exception of coconuts are not only completely unnecessary for my health but indeed harmful IF I use them as a substantial source of calories.
Are you suggesting that your experience is strong evidence for anyone else besides you?

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We are definteley no apes or squirrels for whom nuts are good food.
We are primates, and primates have been eating nuts and other plant-fat sources for millions of years, as the evidence shows. Even you admit to eating coconuts.

And for hazelnuts you need ovens or warm dry air in heated homes to properly dry them. Otherwise they will be quickly full of aflatoxins which is a very potent carcinogen. That's the reason why raw nuts are not available in any foodstore.
Raw hazelnuts and other raw nuts and blanched (briefly boiled) peanuts are sold in my local healthfood stores. If ovens or heated homes are required, then please explain how nuts were a staple food for traditional Bushmen even before they had those technologies.

Iguana was talking about nut consumption in paleolithic times. Nontoxic almonds didn't exist in that era.
Iguana already pointed you to the article I cited about nuts (and other foods) that were consumed going back even before H. sapiens. If you don't address that, then you're effectively conceding the point to Iguana.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:40:05 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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