Author Topic: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat  (Read 13002 times)

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Offline svrn

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Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« on: March 05, 2013, 12:11:34 am »
I just finished reading gangs of new york which has a slang dictionaryat the end of it. One of the terms is black ointment which means raw meat. This means that it was common knowledge in america (even the the lowest class of uneducated criminals knew) that raw meat had healing powers up through at least the nineteenth century.

here is a web page i found on the topic as well. It says they said it was "soothing to dogs and men"

http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/dictionary/black-ointment
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 01:07:18 am »
Fascinating.

Offline joej627

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 04:10:03 am »
I like it.  "Soothes Dog's and men."

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 07:15:48 am »
Nice find.

In old medical texts prior to antibiotics, I found physicians prescribing sunlight and freshly butchered raw beef and raw muscle blood for Tuberculosis daily.
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Offline Suiren

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 05:20:08 am »
Nice find.

In old medical texts prior to antibiotics, I found physicians prescribing sunlight and freshly butchered raw beef and raw muscle blood for Tuberculosis daily.

In a few classic novels (1800s) I also came across prescriptions like: lots of sun, raw meat, bone broth, avoid dairy, and thyroid problems were treated with raw thyroid.

Back in the medieval times, there were also some alternative remedies out there that are similar to what we know know through RPD. Especially "witches", midwives etc. Were knowledgeable.
Nyd byþ nearu on breostan; weorþeþ hi þeah oft niþa bearnum
to helpe and to hæle gehwæþre, gif hi his hlystaþ æror.

Offline yeetingt

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 01:08:29 pm »
Hi Goodsamritan,

I came across your cure manual and this forum for RPD. I am already switching slowly toward this RPD. Eating sashimi fish only with any fruit that I meet and complex carbohydrate (yam, plantain and taro) cooked since I don't know a way to eat them raw yet. I still eat rice but slowly removing it from my plate. I eat my rice mixed with pounded banana or pumpkin with coconut cream. I still have to learn more from you.

Now, I just have a few things to ask or clarify regarding eating raw especially raw meats. In your cure manual website you provided a link to one ebook called "Natural Medicine" by Jerry Hoover. In his book, he mentioned about the danger of eating raw meats such as chicken (they are carriers of cancer diseases), fish (they may be contaminated with tapeworms, human viruses and toxic dumped into lakes and oceans) and eggs (they contain bacteria such as salmonella not killed by boiling or cooking as well as high cholesterol) and meat (bacteria in meat are identical in character to those in manure) pp 37-39. Do you have any comment or advise on this or are there are exceptions. I am a raw fish eater (Micronesian from Kiribati living in Pohnpei).

Another thing I am trying to investigate is the allusion that Apple pioneer Steve Jobs decision to choose alternative medicine to treat his cancer led him to his death. Do you have any comment on which alternative therapy or treatment he was on? I bet it's not RPD. I practice alternative medicines and therapies especially herbal, acupressure and massage to help others and I came across many testimonies from alternative medicines throughout the internet but this news is a blow on the face to alternative medicine. Please advise. Tetaake (you can call me Ted)

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 05:23:19 pm »
Jerry Hoover is a vegan promoter. 
In that short amount of time in his clinic, raw vegan does some people well.
But long term, this is not the case.
Of course I also have experience helping people trying out vegan / fruitarian first, but turned out that was not for him, so switched to raw carnivorous and found that that was for him.

In 2013 we have the benefit of the internet and experiences of people around the world and we know there are different strokes for different folks.

You will find out that there is a time to go vegan and a time to go carnivorous and a time for somewhere in between.  That somewhere in between is the art we are trying to balance for ourselves and for our sick loved ones.

I think Steve Jobs did vegan.  If he did electro medicine, herbal parasite cleansing or grounding or inclined bed therapy or whatever, I do not know.

"Alternative Medicine" is just too darn broad.  No one can know everything. I myself am just getting into EMF elimination, bought a wired router and ditched the wifi at home.

Maybe Steve Jobs was bombarded by all the EMFs around him, as is with Apple's fortunes depend on wireless technologies.  That may have contributed a lot.  He may have turned a blind eye to EMF dangers.
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Offline van

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 05:39:43 am »
did you ever go into an apple store?  would be interesting to do some testing there, or on the long term health changes of employees in one. 

Offline yeetingt

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 01:33:51 pm »
Goodsamaritan,

Thank you for the information and advise.
I agree that "Alternative Medicine" is a broad area and that is why I am investigating the allusion. The media demonstrated lack of knowledge on what Alternative medicine is. We cannot count the number of alternative medicines and therapies out there.
Is there a special way to prepare raw animal fat? Here in Micronesia, beef is imported or shipped into the country. Is it safe to eat it raw? Do you have a link on how to prepare raw paleo meats dish? Warm regards.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2013, 08:12:01 pm »
An ointment is a substance applied to the skin. Black ointment is a raw steak applied to a black eye, not eaten raw. Gangsters had a particular need for it.

Cassel Dictionary of Slang - Page 121
books.google.com/books?isbn=0304366366
Jonathon Green - 2005
"black ointment n. [mid-19C] (UK Und.) a piece of raw meat. [its use as a cure for black eyes] "
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2013, 01:50:10 am »
An ointment is a substance applied to the skin. Black ointment is a raw steak applied to a black eye, not eaten raw. Gangsters had a particular need for it.

Cassel Dictionary of Slang - Page 121
books.google.com/books?isbn=0304366366
Jonathon Green - 2005
"black ointment n. [mid-19C] (UK Und.) a piece of raw meat. [its use as a cure for black eyes] "

thats just what one slang dictionary says. The other one says "soothing for dogs and men" which, since im assuming that people dont put steaks on their dogs black eye, means that its meant for eating as well.
 
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2013, 06:20:46 am »
Why then call it an "ointment," why the gangster connection, and why does no source at all claim it was eaten? If gangsters had some tradition of eating raw meat, that would be rather unusual and notable and we likely would have found at least one reference to it somewhere by now. Soothing can mean soothing to the eye/skin/bruise as well as soothing to the stomach. It wouldn't make sense to assume that it means the latter. The simplest explanation is that gangsters fight and get black eyes and used the well-known remedy of a raw steak on black eyes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeefBandage
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 06:46:15 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2013, 07:13:08 am »
If you read the other definitions in the slang dictionary you would see that making sense is not on the top of the list in terms of coming up with slang words. In fact many slang terms for them meant the opposite of what it sounded like.

Anyway,butchers in the old days were known to try the meat while cutting it up. Also the soothing to dogs and men part shows me they ate it beacause using it externally on a dog sounds absurd to me.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2013, 08:36:07 am »
It could just as easily mean soothing to men for their black eyes and dogs as food. It would be interesting if raw meat was thought of as food fit for dogs back then, as nowadays most people feel they shouldn't even feed dogs raw meat, for whatever bizarre reason. As much as I'd like to believe it, I'm not convinced that "ointment" refers to food for humans, as I've never seen the word used that way, but feel free to believe whatever you wish.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2013, 09:11:57 am »
"soothing to men for their black eyes and dogs as food"

I think a statement like that only serves to try and fit the statement in question into what you want to believe. The manner in which soothing to both dogs and men was written clearly has a default interpretation of being used for dogs and men in the same way. to say that the statement indicates its uses for dogs and men as different is to read into it that which is not there, It seems to me like you want to believe that they were not eating raw meat back then for some reason but I personally believe the evidence is in favor of them eating raw meat.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2013, 09:33:40 am »
It doesn't make any sense for a raw meat eater like me to be biased against raw meat eating. The opposite is far more likely for raw meat eaters--wanting to believe that the ointment was eaten instead of used as an ointment, to support our WOE. Such bias is common on dietary forums, unsurprisingly. I would welcome any evidence you have that black ointment was primarily a food, rather than a topical therapy for black eyes. I could use it with friends and relatives who claim that my raw-meat-eating is crazy. The only reported explanation found so far--regarding gangsters and black eyes--makes too much sense for me to just dismiss it.

At any rate, it's not worth arguing--believe whatever you wish. I'm not even claiming that the ointment was never eaten raw, just not convinced that "black ointment" solely or primarily refers to a food for humans rather than primarily a topical treatment.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 09:42:14 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 09:46:18 am »
"SOOTHING FOR DOGS AND MEN"

unless people put steaks on their dogs black eye (which is absurd) then they are talking about eating it. THis is very simple to me, I dont see why it is so hard for you to interpret this quote,
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Offline jessica

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2013, 09:46:36 am »
did you ever go into an apple store?  would be interesting to do some testing there, or on the long term health changes of employees in one. 


Shoot,  I wish I could find the article I read about a young man who was devastated by brain cancer, guess where he worked? a cell phone store.  There are numerous law suits from individuals who claim their cell phone usage has given them cancer.  I am super sensitive to the emf and noticed that when I had an  older phone that was constantly stuck on the strongest signal my head would ache if the  phone was  too near it.

As for the steak reference, to put a steak on a black eye, it kind of predates throwing a bag of frozen peas on there.........http://mentalfloss.com/article/23246/should-you-really-put-steak-shiner
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:10:06 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2013, 09:59:35 am »
I hope you're right, Troll. Again, if you find any evidence that black ointment was primarily a food for humans, please share it so I can use it. I told a friend of mine I happened to chat with your accusation about me and she laughed, because she thinks I'm way too PRO raw-meat.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2013, 10:37:41 am »
I wasnt acusing you of being biased just voicing my confusion towards why you would say a quote such as "soothing for men and dogs" means that its soothing for both of them but applied in different ways. The quote implies nothing of the sort and any standard reading of that quote would by default be interpreted as dogs and men being soothed byit in the same way.

to read anything else into that quote is simply adding things from your own head. I would like you to address only that quote because in that quote is the answer to your entire issue with this definition and its interpretation.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2013, 12:03:24 pm »
I wasnt acusing you of being biased...
I hope this means that you accept my pro-raw-meat view and that I would be happy if it turns out that your view is correct.

Again, if you find any evidence to support your view, please do share it. It would be helpful to me. Just debating theory endlessly isn't going to get us anywhere.

When I saw "black ointment" I first thought of a topical therapy, as I am familiar with another alternative black ointment (aka "black salve") therapy that is used on the skin and in my experience in the healthcare industry, I have only seen "ointment" used to refer to topical treatment, never to food. I hope that helps explain why that seems like the most plausible explanation to me. Just in case I'm rare in this, I asked my friend what "black ointment" sounds like to her and she said it sounded like something one would use on the skin, and she didn't buy the raw food notion (for humans) based on "soothing to dogs and men." I need supporting evidence to convince people of your idea. I've had some luck in countering the criticisms from friends and relatives of my raw meat eating by pointing out the countless traditional raw meat/fish dishes like steak tartare, but more evidence would be welcome. I'm hoping that if it's that important to you, that you'll look and that you'll find something.

Even given my first impression, I was hoping that there might be something to your raw food notion, as that would be interesting as well as useful ammunition, and I looked for some evidence of it. Unfortunately, I failed to find any. The only explanation I found was "its use as a cure for black eyes." If you don't believe me, please check yourself. Maybe it will turn out that gangsters used it on their eyes first and then ate it raw for a double-benefit?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 12:35:14 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2013, 01:34:38 pm »
I dont care what your friend says or how many excuses you want to make for god only knows what bizarre reason.

"soothing to dogs and men." says all you need to know and to say that it means anything other than that raw meat soothes dogs and men in the same exact way then You are reading something into that statement which is not there . what IS there in that quote is very self explanatory

i know that you are pro raw meat so the reason for you to deny the very simple statement in the slang dictionary is beyond me and I do not wish to hurt my head trying to figureout that reason.

it doesnt help our argument either way because those gangsters were incredibly stupid and extremely unhealthy as well if you looked at their pictures. That they knew raw meat to have healing properties is nothing but a fun curiosity and doesnt do much to help our argument either way.

the only reason im arguing at all is because the interpretation of the slang dictionary is so straightforward that i feel a need. Anyway i wont be arguing this point any more.
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Offline a87.pal

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 12:25:15 pm »
 the most pragmatic way to determine the correct reading of a sentence is to look at the sources.

http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/dictionary/black-ointment lists four sources, interestingly none of them contain the quote "It soothes dog and men." In fact, here is what each says:

A Dictionary of Slang, Jargon, and Cant.
http://archive.org/stream/adictionaryslan00lelagoog#page/n160/mode/1up
"(thieves), pieces of raw meat."

A Dictionary of Slang and Colloquial English.
http://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofslan00farmrich#page/49/mode/1up
"Uncooked meat."

Vocabulum: Or, the Rogue’s Lexicon.
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924073798740#page/n20/mode/1up
"Raw meat."

A Dictionary of the Underworld
http://books.google.com/books?id=VPBMA1ciCNgC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false
" 'Pieces of raw meat' (B. & L.); c.: from ca. 1870. Perhaps ex idea of meat poultice for a black eye. (Alexander McQueen.) "


Unless you find the source that backs up "It soothes dog and men.", then it appears this argument has no basis. From the sources the site actually lists, the black eye poultice interpretation seems best supported.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2013, 04:30:40 am »
A Dictionary of the Underworld
http://books.google.com/books?id=VPBMA1ciCNgC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false
"'Pieces of raw meat' (B. & L.); c.: from ca. 1870. Perhaps ex idea of meat poultice for a black eye. (Alexander McQueen.)"
Thanks for your open-minded curiosity and good sleuthing, a87.pal. The term "meat poultice" was quite helpful. It is apparently a more common name for the treatment and produced many more hits. Since Troll doesn't appear to like this explanation of black ointment, and since my interest is in learning more and also since the meat poultice therapy was used for much more than just black eyes, I'll create a separate thread to share and discuss findings on the broader topic of external (topical) meat therapies.

[Update: Here's a link to the other thread for anyone interested:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-meat-beneficial-externally-as-well-as-internally/msg107031/#msg107031 ]
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 05:32:39 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Old New York Gangsters knew about raw meat
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2013, 11:50:19 pm »
well they must have gotten soothing to dogs and men from somewhere. or they made it up which I cant understand.

From what I can tell the last source A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English
 By Eric Partridge is not the same source source as that used by the website I gave. The proper source would have been A Dictionary of the Underworld not what you gave and perhaps the quote was taken from there.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 12:01:00 am by trollofthedungeon »
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