Author Topic: Fermentation, Anti-oxidants, oxidation, and high-meat: I don't think I get it...  (Read 10431 times)

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Offline Dr. D

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So the reason high-meat is good is because of good bacteria growing on it(fermentation), correct? The good bacteria is aerobic bacteria? So oxygen/air is necessary to keep it growing good stuff. I left some meat out on my deck for 24 hours and ate it and woke up at 5 AM this morning and barfed. I only had a tiny piece and I only barfed a little bit of bile, but oh did it burn my throat bad.

What's not clicking for me is I'm reading people on this forum saying that oxidized meat is bad, but to ferment the meat make sure to air it out... isn't that contradictory?

Also, I probably won't be making high meat again by leaving it in the jar on the deck covered with pantyhose, I feel terrible today. I suspect it takes time also to grow the best bacteria? Maybe my meat was too poor quality or maybe I don't have enough good bacteria in my gut yet to overcome any bad bacteria on the high-meat I tried making.

So where does the good bacteria come from and how can I make it better next time? Yes, I've read Tyler's post on making high-meat and many others.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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You said you used grainfed meat.  That's almost certainly the problem.

And oxidized MEAT isn't the thing that people here are talking about...it's oxidized FAT. 

Good bacteria is naturally-occurring on the meat. There's no need to inoculate it.

Offline PaleoPhil

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All meat contains some fat, even lean cuts: "four ounces of extra-lean ground beef (95 percent lean, 5 percent fat) is worth 155 calories, with 5.6 g of fat, or 33.3 percent of its total calories." http://lowfatcooking.about.com/od/lowfatbasics/a/leanbeef.htm So all oxidized meat contains some fat.

Lean muscle meat protein also oxidizes: Protein oxidation in muscle foods: a review, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21207515

However, there are hints that some oxidation may actually be beneficial:

"Oxidative damage was the prevailing theory of aging in the 1990s, and anti-oxidants became the preferred prescription for youthfulness. But in lab animals and in human studies, the cure didn’t pan out – anti-oxidants never did fulfill their potential, and this left the theorists scratching their heads. Then, in recent years the situation became curiouser and curiouser, with hints that oxidative damage might be essential for a kind of stress signal that tells the body to “stay young”." (Anti-oxidants: A Disappointment or Worse, Posted on November 19, 2012, http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2012/11/19/anti-oxidants-a-disappointment-or-worse)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 07:50:58 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline LePatron7

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You said you used grainfed meat.  That's almost certainly the problem.

That's definitely the most likely reason. I have a batch of grass fed beef going outdoors right now and I've been eating little pieces with every meal and I haven't had any problems. It could be that you don't have the right gut environment, but it's unlikely.

http://www.eatwild.com/foodsafety.html

Check out that link to see multiples studies showing grain fed meat has bad bacteria. You were basically cultivating bad bacteria from the start by using grain fed meat.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline PaleoPhil

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Tyler's thread also recommends refrigerating the meat, not leaving it out in the sun and/or rain. I've read somewhere that pathogenic bacteria do better in warm temps than cold temps, and this would probably be most important for someone new to high meat.

Regarding the surprising apparent anti-aging benefits of some oxidation, my own speculation is that there may be hormetic benefits from consuming certain amounts of both anti-oxidant and pro-oxidant foods, thus maximizing the range of hormetic stressors to the body, just as there seems to be benefit from using both cold-shock and heat-shock hormetic therapies.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline LePatron7

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Tyler's thread also recommends refrigerating the meat, not leaving it out in the sun and/or rain. I've read somewhere that pathogenic bacteria do better in warm temps than cold temps, and this would probably be most important for someone new to high meat.

Is there any more info on this? I do all my ferments outdoors (high meat, pickles, sauerkraut).
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline PaleoPhil

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Dr. D, FYI: your forum message inbox is full.

DaBoss88, There might be some more at this forum, and I vaguely remember posting something about it at the Dirty Carnivore forum. http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/ Plus Aajonus puts his meat in the fridge and advises to do this, so I'm not sure why some folks started putting their meat outdoors, except that maybe they think that the more bacteria the better, not taking into account that pathogenic bacteria especially thrive at higher temps? Or maybe they figure the sun will dry the meat (which does make some sense on a dry, breezy day). And maybe some folks just want to do their own thing and screw the advice.  ;D Maybe someone who's putting their meat out in the sun will explain why they do it?

I leave some meat on the kitchen counter in the winter, when it's cooler, but it doesn't do as well there in the summer, so I move it to the fridge. I also find it important to expose all surfaces to drying air as much as possible. Contact with a hard surface promotes moisture on that side of the meat (though if I have it in a glass jar in the fridge, like Aajonus tends to do, I want the moisture).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline LePatron7

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Dr. D, FYI: your forum message inbox is full.

I think there's a problem with new member's inboxes. I noticed that there have been a few members complaining their inboxes have been full, even though they have no messages.

Maybe someone who's putting their meat out in the sun will explain why they do it?

Well I don't do it because 1) my family doesn't allow fermented food in the house, 2) in paleo times there wasn't really refrigeration so ferments were made at whatever temp the environment was, and 3) animals in the wild that come across a decaying carcass (which I feel mimics high meat) eat it, even though it might have been out for a long time in whatever temperature that environment is.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline PaleoPhil

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Peoples who lived in climates with winters had natural refrigeration in the cold season. Plus, one can store foods in permafrost, cold rivers, streams and oceans that can be cold year-round. The Eskimos, Chukchi and Nenets still use such natural refrigeration.

Re: #3, given the advice of long-term high-meat eaters like Aajonus and Tyler to refrigerate, I figure it might be best for newbies to not test that right off the bat. A couple of the newbie experiments with that went sour and one guy even quit raw Paleo completely because of it. So when veterans talk about doing that sort of thing, they might want to warn newbies about Aajonus' and Tyler's advice.

I also noticed that another new member's inbox said it was full.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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I also noticed that another new member's inbox said it was full.

GS designed it that way, to keep spammers from spamming everyone via PM.  You have to have about 15 posts before you can send/receive PMs.

Offline LePatron7

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Re: #3, given the advice of long-term high-meat eaters like Aajonus and Tyler to refrigerate, I figure it might be best for newbies to not test that right off the bat. A couple of the newbie experiments with that went sour and one guy even quit raw Paleo completely because of it. So when veterans talk about doing that sort of thing, they might want to warn newbies about Aajonus' and Tyler's advice.

Interesting. I think it might also have something to do with the rapid fermentation that takes place in warmer temperatures. A strong ferment can cause a lot of detox/die off symptoms.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Dr. D

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Excellent points and advice all around.

Ya, I only had one message and it said it was full.

I think the cold may be better for starting, especially since I puked. However, I guess I'll just cook the grain fed garbage to finish it off before going full raw... I'd rather not get E.coli off a sick cow.

Now back to oxidation. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidator. Why could that not benefit us in some cases? Maybe you guys have no experience with hydrogen peroxide as a medicine and I am quite unexperienced as well, however I have used Miracle Mineral Supplement (chlorine dioxide) which is another oxidator. It essentially brings oxygen into your gut and lets the aerobic bacteria live while killing the anaerobic ones. I apologize up front if this is seen as not using paleo style techniques for help, but I mean as more of an ease of transition into high meat. Rinse your meat in chlorine dioxide and let it ferment for a month after that and wouldn't you be "guaranteed" (nothing is a complete guarantee) to get only good bacteria? I don't mean to step on toes, just a thought...
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Excellent points and advice all around.

Ya, I only had one message and it said it was full.

I think the cold may be better for starting, especially since I puked. However, I guess I'll just cook the grain fed garbage to finish it off before going full raw... I'd rather not get E.coli off a sick cow.

Now back to oxidation. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidator. Why could that not benefit us in some cases? Maybe you guys have no experience with hydrogen peroxide as a medicine and I am quite unexperienced as well, however I have used Miracle Mineral Supplement (chlorine dioxide) which is another oxidator. It essentially brings oxygen into your gut and lets the aerobic bacteria live while killing the anaerobic ones. I apologize up front if this is seen as not using paleo style techniques for help, but I mean as more of an ease of transition into high meat. Rinse your meat in chlorine dioxide and let it ferment for a month after that and wouldn't you be "guaranteed" (nothing is a complete guarantee) to get only good bacteria? I don't mean to step on toes, just a thought...

I've used peroxide before. No biggie. I don't think it's all that useful.

As far as rinsing your meat in MMS, sure, that will kill the bacteria that's already on there, but healthy bacteria won't grow well on crappy meat. You need better meat.  The bacteria need good-quality food just like you or I do.

Offline Dr. D

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I've used peroxide before. No biggie. I don't think it's all that useful.

As far as rinsing your meat in MMS, sure, that will kill the bacteria that's already on there, but healthy bacteria won't grow well on crappy meat. You need better meat.  The bacteria need good-quality food just like you or I do.

True. Agh, we bought this stuff before we knew it was grain-fed, or even what the difference caused. Ignorance is bliss right? I know all this stuff now about crappy meat and over consumption of fruits and veggies and my family thinks I'm crazy that I expect the healthiest diet to be a raw keto diet. Or at least keeping fruits and veggies to a minimum, vs what we've been taught that veggies and fruits need to be the staple of a healthy diet. I see no progress being made health-wise and they continue to push the issue that veggies and fruits are the best. Sorry, off topic a little...
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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True. Agh, we bought this stuff before we knew it was grain-fed, or even what the difference caused. Ignorance is bliss right? I know all this stuff now about crappy meat and over consumption of fruits and veggies and my family thinks I'm crazy that I expect the healthiest diet to be a raw keto diet. Or at least keeping fruits and veggies to a minimum, vs what we've been taught that veggies and fruits need to be the staple of a healthy diet. I see no progress being made health-wise and they continue to push the issue that veggies and fruits are the best. Sorry, off topic a little...

It's OK. We've all been there, on the "I wish I knew better before now" stuff, AND the "I wish my family understood diet as well as I do". ROFL  Everybody on this forum has been through both.

Offline Dr. D

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So I guess I just gotta go through it, get healthier than an ox, and then maybe they'll see that this lifestyle change works, right?
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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So I guess I just gotta go through it, get healthier than an ox, and then maybe they'll see that this lifestyle change works, right?

Not just healthier, but happier, too.  When they see both happening at the same time, that is more convincing.

Offline Dr. D

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Not just healthier, but happier, too.  When they see both happening at the same time, that is more convincing.

I'LL SHOW THEM WHO CAN BE HAPPY, DAMNIT!  >:
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline miles

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"It essentially brings oxygen into your gut and lets the aerobic bacteria live while killing the anaerobic ones."

Your small intestine is meant to have as few bacteria in it as possible, and they are meant to be mostly anaerobic. The only aerobic bacteria are meant to be in the duodenum and proximal jejunum, and in very small numbers. The colon is meant to contain only anaerobic bacteria. I always thought that the reason for favouring aerobic bacteria on aged-meat was specifically so that they would not survive in the gut, and to avoid specific harmful anaerobic bacteria such as Clostridium botulinum.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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You got the gist right, Miles. I can tell you've read up on it and aren't just shooting from the hip on this. Kudos for that. That is rare in forums and I greatly appreciate it. I'll take a critic who does his homework any day over a supporter who regurgitates urban legends just because it supports his/her current practice (confirmation bias is a huge problem in forums).

Plus, that hypothesis is best which can withstand the most critical scrutiny. Knee-jerk defensive attacks against critical inquiry are suggestive of a weak hypothesis.

One minor addition--the cecum can also reportedly contain around 25% facultatively anaerobic microbes. (Comparative Study of Bacterial Groups within the Human Cecal and Fecal Microbiota
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC93255). A major function of these bacteria is apparently to ferment starch into  short chain fatty acids (SCFA) http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/images/man-gorilla.jpg. Since most raw Paleo dieters probably don't consume much starchy food, since you specified "mostly anaerobic," and since even this 25% of the cecum bacteria are somewhat anaerobic, the gist of your point stands.

When I first learned about the "high" aspect of high meat, I suspected that it was due to beneficial bacteria, but since learning that most aerobic bacteria don't survive inside the body, I now suspect that something else produces this effect. Here is my speculative hypothesis #2:

- Fermenting meat produces glutamate (which is one of the elements that provides "umami" flavor)
- Glutamate is a precursor to the neurotransmitter GABA (and vitamin B6 is a key co-factor in this process - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid)
- GABA enhances a feeling of well-being (conversely, GABA deficiency can result in chronic anxiety)

I also suspect that GABA deficiency is a major problem in the modern world, given the increasing frequency of benzodiazepine use.

Do you have any thoughts on what produces the "high" aspect of "high meat"?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 06:20:18 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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