Author Topic: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?  (Read 35201 times)

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Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2013, 11:04:15 am »
Youtube is so big, it's like saying you hate the internet.
If you do, in fact, hate the internet, then you wouldn't be here.
So I just don't understand why you have bad things to say about it?

Offline bookittyrun

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2013, 12:02:47 pm »
not to carry on, but to answer your question:

it just seems there are better venues.  you posted a youtube video of a guy you described as crazy.  why get lost amongst people like him?  the internet has value, i do not hate it.  hence, my being here on this forum.  i'm sure i could also find a diet / lifestyle forum that encourages people to eat mcdonalds for every meal.  personally, i would chose not to get nutritional data from that site, if i felt the premise was lacking in intellectual substance.

in my opinion, posting to a personal blog, or personal website would only add credibility to your cause.  if crazy people reach other crazy people through youtube, maybe posting to youtube is "advertising" to the wrong crowd.  after all, who would you be trying to convince?  that is why i thought van's memo was "well said".  the repeated suggestion that we stop trying, and start being, is something rarely considered for action.  it seems a noble notion. 

instead of admitting something like, "youtube is so big", maybe concentrate on making yourself "bigger" than youtube.

i offered an apology for being so blatent with my personal viewpoint, and i reiterate, it was not my intention to offend anyone.  not just to you, or c_k, but to everyone who has sensitivities i have long since lost, i will make an effort to be more tactful and delicate with my opinions and posts in the future.   to act on my own suggestion, i will make the effort to no longer post remarks that are not considered "politically correct", or "insensitve" to varying opinions (outside of my journal).

i will move on now.

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Offline miles

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 05:28:18 am »
http://www.radiancenutrition.com/2011/08/19/put-down-that-kale-smoothie-why-you-should-cook-your-food/

Aside from the irrational ignoramuses who bash raw paleo just because it's different; here's a good, brief introductory article as to why people might reasonably 'bash' raw paleo. References are cited, and you can use it as a starting point to do more research, if you want.
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Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 07:06:13 am »
Woah. Is that ever the craziest thing I have ever laid eyes upon.
What the hell?

I have come to the conclusion that raw organic diets work the best.
By far, raw paleo or raw vegan.

Always raw though. Any cooked diet pales in comparison.

I can see why people believe raw vegan is the best, because it does show great results when perfectly executed.
But cooked? I've never seen great results from a cooked diet.

I had no idea people were still trying to say that cooked was better than raw, haha.
They should probably wake up and get with the times. We know better now.

Thank you for leading me to that exquisite piece of literature.
Very interesting

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2013, 07:14:29 am »
"The invention and continuous development of food treatment has had a substantial, if not major impact on the intellectual, societal and economic development of mankind."

This is true, but in the opposite way that she means it.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 12:21:08 pm »
From that article you posted miles:

Quote
Eating raw food has a cost.
Cooking also appears to have a positive effect on net energy in the body. Humans on vegetarian diets exhibit higher reproductive performance when eating cooked  food than raw food. Evidence of low energy intake in women eating predominantly rawfood is supported by their having higher rates of amenorrhea or menstrual  irregularities than those eating cooked food.  In one study, it was found that menstruation was absent in 23% of females of childbearing age who ate at least 70% of their food raw and in 50% of women reporting a 100% raw diet. Although these women were primarily vegetarian, the addition of raw meat to the diet did not change the odds of ovarian suppression. The researchers concluded that women suffered because of their relatively low net energy gain as a consequence of  eating their food raw.  A nutritional analysis suggested that in traditional communities, a diet of raw wild foods would render survival and reproduction difficult.

I'm sure GS would have something to say about that.

My opinion: it sounds nice but we all know how studies can be skewed to whatever they want to show. If the women on raw vegetarian diets had trouble ovulating, and the addition of raw meat didnt help, I wonder if they considered anti-nutrients that were possibly cooked out for the cooked counter-parts. Nutrition is a big puzzle and if they don't consider the notion that a primarily raw meat diet is better than a primarily raw vegetable for many people, then they will always run into anti-nutrients. Also, I wonder if they included organs or if they just gave the ladies t-bones all day. Was the raw meat healthy/close to wild/grass-fed? Was there enough fat? I doubt they would give the women fat, that causes heart disease so we cant have a study showing the opposite. Sounds like poor dieting all around.

Again, we have an issue of looking for what you want to look for.
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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 02:18:11 pm »
" Although these women were primarily vegetarian, the addition of raw meat to the diet did not change the odds of ovarian suppression. The researchers concluded that women suffered because of their relatively low net energy gain as a consequence of eating their food raw. A nutritional analysis suggested that in traditional communities, a diet of raw wild foods would render survival and reproduction difficult."

First of all, bahahahaha at the last sentence erhmerhgehrd!

And in re to the first part they better qualify that shit, how much meat, what kind, etc etc. When on a proper, biologically appropriate raw diet, one's body chemistry should balance and harmonize, if that's not happening, you are doing it wa-rong! =p

Listen to your body first, use common sense second and stick with aliments that nurture, pretty simple!

Offline miles

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2013, 07:41:43 pm »
"first part they better qualify that shit"
All references are cited you lazy bum: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fallnurses.com%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D8215%26d%3D1299813556&ei=7GLRUaicHOKb0QXxlIDoCQ&usg=AFQjCNF5qHsWc0eGENmX_jYwNKyQ3299MA&sig2=xMAWRowFu60CUOJ3AElvPQ&bvm=bv.48572450,d.d2k&cad=rja

Do you think their cooked counterparts are putting so much more thought into having the perfect macro-ratios etc? Why is it so much more important for the raw dieters, unless raw food is less nutritious?

Poncho you sound like a religious zealot. How long have you been eating raw paleo; how much evidence have you seen? You are asserting things you cannot possibly know. Go ahead and experiment with your body and research 'alternative' therapies, you will get further than following anything your doctor is likely to suggest, but do not kid yourself that you know things which you do not. For all you know things might start going wrong down the line, and if you cling to faith and beliefs things are going to get much worse than if you just evaluated things rationally. Perhaps things won't 'go wrong', but they just won't go as well as they could have done. It's important to have people who are willing to try things out, like Raw Paleo, so that others have information to evaluate; but you should know that it is an experiment, that you are in poorly charted territory.

Just because the mainstream is ignorant and corrupt, and has things wrong; and x people can see that, it doesn't mean x people have things right either. When most people are ignorant regarding health, it is left to small groups of individuals to research and theorise based on scarce information and experiment on themselves. People only have so much time to try so many things, and if people find something which makes them feel better than before they're likely to be happy to stick with it. That doesn't mean it's the ultimate therapy. Desperate people are easier to please...
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Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2013, 08:16:10 pm »
I was so sick in the body and mind that I was lost.
I spent years trying different diets and different natural therapies, nothing ever brought me back.
My boyfriend was my 24 hour attendant, he suffered in a different way.
Even without physical injuries.
His mind and body changed dramatically, he became just as depressed as myself, if not more.

I was right here in this body watching closely 24 hours a day, as raw paleo began changing it when nothing else would.
My boyfriend dropped the entire 30 pounds of weight he had gained.
The bags (dark and deep) under his eyes that had bothered him daily, were gone within a couple of months. Maybe less
My mother joined me on raw paleo as well, she completely transformed too.
She was receiving compliments left and right about her youthful appearance (which hadnt shown itself in years, before raw paleo)
She had been struggling to lose weight for years, with raw paleo it was easy.

You can call me what you want, but I have done research for hours and days and months.
When you actually look, you will see that the documentation is there.
It is only hidden and overlooked.
Youre just one of the people that are holding it back.
It's strange that you confuse youre own ignorance with me being ignorant.
I'm not religious, I'm just passionate about stopping the suffering that I see every day.
I don't want anyone to have to suffer the way I have, but they will, if the ones who know don't start bringing out the truth.

That article is shit, that's the point.
I can disprove all of the lies woven into it.

Irritating that you believe something so hilariously untrue...

What do you get out of bashing this and telling me that I know less than I think I do?
You couldn't have any idea of what I know. I haven't written much.

Are you a doctor?

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2013, 08:27:43 pm »
Oh, this was a fuck up on my part.
I thought that someone else posted that article just to show me the opposition.
I thought it was an absolute joke, honestly.

I read through the article a few times, trying to decide whether or not it was actually written as a joke article.

Then I thought that you were some random guy that came in thinking that the article was actually being considered here.

I was arguing with you, thinking that you were just a little mislead.

I take it all back though, you are in too deep, I do not wish to fight with one of you.
Go live your life with this superior knowledge you've got.

Even raw vegans are healthier than the average people, because of the raw food.
Raw Vegan Diet Makes 70 Year Old Woman Look 40



Offline Eric

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2013, 08:34:33 pm »
The article was interesting. I just emailed the author to see if she'd be willing to say which of the references she got each factoid she presented on the differences between raw and cooked meats. Hopefully she'll respond.

Offline miles

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2013, 08:53:32 pm »
Eric. Yes, she should have numbered the references and linked them to the text. That would've made the article easier to use.

Poncho, in regard to that video: How do you know it's because of the raw food, and not because of other lifestyle aspects including the variety, quality and freshness of her food? It is fair to consider that the raw aspect might be important, but you do not know. Maybe the raw aspect does have advantages but simultaneous disadvantages.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2013, 08:59:19 pm »
There is such a thing as raw done the right way and cooked done the right way.

What I do know is that it is suicide to go 100% cooked... cooking every single thing including fruit... and all animal food well done cooked... is suicide.

Raw when done wrong has its own pitfalls... see all those idiots eating tiny plates of vegetable salads... see those raw meat eaters who do not expose their meats to the air and culture bad bacteria... eat raw animals mostly protein and not much raw fat.  Or keep eating raw dairy but they are lactose intolerant.

There are many pitfalls.  Personal teaching is required many times.
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Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2013, 09:03:17 pm »
Because I've seen it a thousand times!
I don't mean to be all sassy and defensive, I'm sorry for that.
The idea of people going down the wrong path because of misinformation just freaks me out.
The wrong path can be absolutely detrimental.

I'm really sure about this, it is entirely undeniable.
The most recent proof I found was yesterday.

I was reviewing videos by a raw vegan on youtube, and I found something remarkable.
She feeds her DOG a vegan diet!

I was blown away as I searched further online and found that dogs actually do well on raw vegan diets.

I decided to look a step further, vegan cat diets.

As cats are considered 'obligate carnivores', I wondered if maybe....

Yep, cats on raw vegan diets.
Doing better than normal cats.

Incredible eh?

That's how horrible what we feed our pets is, that even our cats are so nutrient deprived that going from carnivore to herbivore benefits them!

Thats how much better raw food is...
Could you imagine?
(cats and dogs are supposed to eat meat, I know that. It just blows my mind that they can get healthier than they do on regular store bought food even when they go vegetarian)

I mean, I have known for a while that a raw meat diet really does well for cats and dogs.
I've seen it.
But I never...

Raw vegan cats - cats aint carnivores at all

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2013, 09:05:25 pm »
Yes I've also seen people fail to do it right a thousand times, too.
Thats true.

But the ones that succeed go far beyond anyone eating any form of cooked diet.

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2013, 09:50:02 pm »
Okay, I kept looking for vegan cats, and came across this..

My vegan cat

We have really messed up this planet of ours.
I have heard of a study that proves that cooked food has done this.
I'm going to go look at it asap, Ill let you know what it says.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2013, 09:56:36 pm »
Vegan cats... ha ha ha.
You won't be able to make the next generation that way.
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Offline jessica

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2013, 09:57:51 pm »
its only because in nature there are only raw unprocessed foods.  so if a cat is either in an area with no meat/bugs sources the next step down is eating as much raw vegetable matter as possible.  only feral cats would most likely not do as well as domesticated cats seeing as their sources of veggies is way less calorific and would have to be foraged for.  domesticated cats are given large portions that are highly calorific, which cats don't have to search out.  plus what are these "raw" folks really feeding their animals anyway, I am sure it takes some supplementation and/or grains.  cats are not meant to forage all day, they will waste away munching on veggies and fruits, they are meant to hunt for a few hours and rest and conserve energy.  anyway its the same for humans, if you want to be raw vegan, you are eating the second best food on the planet, raw unprocessed veggies, and will have to eat more often because you are eating less calorific and less optimal foods.  and you are still missing out on the best building blocks for a strong body, with no complicated complete proteins and fats that support brain and all systems in the body.

people are stubborn and they are also crazy and willing to make themselves sick for their convictions.  please don't get yourself stuck in a mind that you are going to heal or fix the world, it wont happen, only lend as much energy to the fight that you have, and if that's just enough to heal up yourself and your family, that's fine, but don't get lost in the mix, live a full life outside of what you eat and regardless of your health

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2013, 10:19:19 pm »
Yes, listen to Jessica.

As much as I myself would like to heal the world, there are physical limitations. (but we can always dream... maybe why we do charity stuff like write websites and write books and make videos.)

Over dinner, my mother in law was talking about a dear friend with alzheimers... so I asked... are we going on a rescue mission again?  She declined.  We were already maxed out helping her brother heal from a large kidney cancer tumor.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:47:31 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline Eric

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2013, 10:36:06 pm »
Quote
The idea of people going down the wrong path because of misinformation just freaks me out.

If you're freaked out about the possibility of you going down the wrong path due to misinformation, just develop your critical thinking skills, be willing to experiment on yourself and be open to both positive and negative feedback from your body with respect to your experiments.

If you're freaked out about the possibility of others going down the wrong path due to misinformation, stop it. People's eating habits are often based on irrational beliefs and all manner of chemical dependencies, and there's really not much you can do to change them. If someone hits rock bottom and they're open to new ideas, offer them. Otherwise smile, nod and change the subject.

On the topic of cats, I just spent two weeks working at a martial art training camp as co-instructor, and was staying at a friend's house. She had cats, and fed them a largely industrial diet of processed wet and dry cat food. They were so indoctrinated to that poor quality food that when I dropped a piece of liver on the floor for one of them out of pity it wouldn't eat it. It sniffed the liver for a few minutes, then walked away. Humans aren't the only animals that can fall off track with respect to diet.

BTW, my co-instructor's diet was of poor quality also. She was taken aback by the fact I ate nothing but raw organ meats, raw animal tendon and raw animal fat the entire two weeks I was working with her.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:45:42 pm by Eric »

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2013, 11:00:18 pm »
haha come on!

I'm going to give you a very loose uneducated unknowledgeable example here that I think might open your eyes.

Alright, do you know of when the african americans had zero rights and were treated as lesser beings?
Slavery? I hope so, but I don't know which countries get taught about that. Yeah I am not wise when it comes to history or the worlds activity haha.

Anyways, if they would have all stuck to the mentality "This is just how things are, don't try to change it because you never will", what do you think would have happened?
They fought for their rights, they fought for what they believed in. They fought for the truth.
They were up against all of these hideously ignorant white people who had full control over them.
Eventually, they succeeded.

I believe in this. I believe in mankind. Let me try. Let anyone try.
If we all try our best, someday, we'll succeed.
Because it is right, it is true.

I think theres something to fighting for the truth.
Eventually, it will overcome all else.

Life is so empty when you go through it sick.
No one deserves to live like that, but many do.

I'm completely cool with the idea of trying to change the world for my entire life, and never seeing success.
I know that I will help some people at least, and hopefully what I do will help people someday long after I've died.

What the hell are you even doing if you aren't trying?

goodsamaritan, you're obviously helping if you're healing people haha.
Healing others to the point where you're 'maxed'?
"are we going on a rescue mission AGAIN"?
You're selling yourself short!
If you are helping others, you're changing the world.

Eric, come on. I noticed that my sister's cat wont eat raw meat either.
The only thing I learned from that was that I need to help it.
I felt pity, because I understand that because of us, she doesn't even understand that she wants real food.
The same applies to humans.
It's cool if you want to look the other way, but why would you insist that others do the same?
Let me at least try for a while before I come to the same conclusion.
Any 'trying' will benefit in the long run.


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2013, 11:05:53 pm »
I find that diet bashers can be helpful when they provide a different perspective that includes some data, as in the case of the article Miles cited, rather than just assumptions, insults or straw men arguments.

This appears to be the key bit in the article regarding raw diets that include animal foods: "the addition of raw meat to the diet did not change the odds of ovarian suppression" (http://www.radiancenutrition.com/2011/08/19/put-down-that-kale-smoothie-why-you-should-cook-your-food)

This appears to be what she is referring to:

"Vegans had no significantly higher odds of underweight than vegetarians or meat eaters." (Koebnick, C., Strassner, C., Hoffmann, I., Leitzmann, C., 1999. Consequences of a long-term raw food diet on body weight and menstruation: results of a questionnaire survey. Ann. Nutr. Metab. 43, 69–79.)

If so, it would be more accurate to say that the "inclusion" of meat in the raw diets did not change the odds of ovarian suppression, rather than the "addition."

The only meat eaters mentioned in the survey study report were those following "instinctotherapy" diets containing "large amounts of fruits." While it's just a survey, which is possibly the weakest form of dietary study of all, the results fit with what I've seen over the years as the 4 biggest long-term pitfalls of raw diets:

1) undereating
2) not enough starchy foods (accumulating evidence suggests that our Stone Age ancestors ate underground storage organs raw, before the advent of cooking, but there aren't many available in supermarkets today)--especially ZCers or near-ZCers that avoid animal starch as well as plant starch
3) too much sugary fruits or honey (usually sugary fruits) and not enough antioxidant/detoxifying nutrients in the body, like B6, glutathione, Mg, zinc and iodine, to deal with the stress from chronic high sugar intakes
4) not enough organs, connective tissues, bones, blood, fermented foods and other foods commonly eaten in the past but rarely eaten nowadays

The reports I've seen suggest that these are general tendencies of Instinctos (not all), and it seems to stem in part from their emphasis on eating what tastes good to them and often not having much experience with or knowledge of traditional foods that are unpopular today. I suspect that those fruit-heavy Instincto-type raw dieters who eat a very restricted diet that has one of these four problems and who also refuse to get their nutrient levels checked or take any foodlements/supplements are at greatest risk of problems.

On the other hand, one thing the survey report didn't address, which raw vegans and GCB rebut with, is the possibility that some of the self-reported "amenorrhea or menstrual irregularities" could be healthy covert menstruation. At first, that counterargument seemed too convenient to me, but there is some science supporting the possibility (see Periods - They May Be 'Normal', But Are They Healthy?
http://debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com/2009/04/periods-they-may-be-normal-but-are-they.html)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:28:01 pm by PaleoPhil »
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Offline Eric

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2013, 11:52:34 pm »
Fascinating blog link Phil. I'm now embarrassed that I bought into the idea that monthly bleeding is both normal and healthy for women.

And Poncho, if you want to proselytize, you're welcome to do that. Just saying that unless the person you're proselytizing to is open to making radical changes, your energy would be better spent on other things.

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2013, 12:11:47 am »
Ah! I knew it.

I'm gonna get really personal here for a second, for the sake of relating to the blog post.

Before the accident, my body was in really good condition.
That special time was always 4 days, very light, and with no pms or cramps

Then came the accident, the body was in very poor condition
that time got super special and one time even lasted 9 days, very heavy, insane pms and debilitating cramps.

Its getting better but its sure taking its time.

When I finally achieve health, maybe itll go away entirely!
Its like you just told me that you put another piece of cheese at the end of my maze.
I'm even more excited to reach the end now, I hope kinda close haha

Offline Poncho

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Re: Why are people bashing Raw Paleo?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2013, 12:15:03 am »
My energy is best spent on doing my best to contribute to helping mankind along in the right direction.
And also squeezing it all into run-on sentences, I'm good at that.

We're just pieces, part of a whole. If you arent serving the whole, youre not too useful.
Not too useful to the world, not too useful to yourself. One in the same.

 

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