Author Topic: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?  (Read 13512 times)

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Offline Dr. D

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2013, 05:56:06 am »
Such conjectures have been completely and thoroughly debunked in "Sex at Dawn"
by Christopher Ryan, PhD, and Cacilda Jethá, MD, freely downloadable here http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/6191785/

It’s a great read that every paleo dieter should read, one of the 2 or 3 best books I ever read and even perhaps the best of them all.

haha you hopped right in there on the same idea. Maybe if we keep bringing it up others will decide to try it. I agree with you entirely on this one, truly amazing book. I try to tell whoever I meet that I think may have an open mind about it. I'm careful as the idea that people are basically supposed to live like hippies and seem to have the most success that way can really piss people off.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2013, 07:40:49 am »
Debunked my ass....
What is the opinion of sheep to a wolf?

We could split hares on the subject, and get nowhere fast, but I would rather clarify the difference of opinion

I just don't see how you can disagree about our violent past. Even in times of relative plenty our ape-man ancestors killed and ate other members of their own species. There have been human skulls found from paleolithic times that were smashed open to get the brains out.

Yes, there likely were great numbers of peaceful people during paleo times who lived in the garden of Eden environment of plenty like noble savages.
Its good to focus on the ideal environment and work on ways to nurture our better nature.

Studies have found that people with a genetic  tendency toward violence, are actually more likely to be peaceful and caring if raised in a peaceful environment. Evil has an environmentally triggered on and off switch. It is a survival mechanism that is latent even in the most docile and gentile of people. Just like in the violent behavior of the pit bull, evil only comes out under certain provocations.

Yes during times of plenty there was a lot of sex at dawn, Im not denying our paradisaical roots, all I was saying is that there were in our evolutionary history times when food was scarce, the ice ages had set in, neanderthals and other sub breeds were all competing for limited resources, and those humans who possess the right balance between a strong killer instincts and the capacity for egalitarian cooperative behavior had the advantage in the evolutionary long run.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 07:50:13 am by sabertooth »
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2013, 08:11:27 am »

 Even in times of relative plenty our ape-man ancestors killed and ate other members of their own species. There have been human skulls found from paleolithic times that were smashed open to get the brains out.


And the people who were being eaten may well have died while hunting, or from disease, accidents, or predation.  I've not seen any evidence that says that the people doing the eating were also the ones doing the killing, have you?

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2013, 08:23:52 am »
Skulls can be cracked for many more reasons that cannibalism. What evidence is it there another human caused that?
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 10:01:06 am »
Skulls can be cracked for many more reasons that cannibalism. What evidence is it there another human caused that?

The evidence for cannibalism, among humans AND Neanderthals, is overwhelming.  I wouldn't dare argue against that, although I admit that I find it a little disturbing.  The question is, how did they die?

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 10:32:24 am »
Yes I didn't mean that its not likely that it was cannibalism, I have no clue frequency or relativity. I just mean that there are many nasty predators that can break skulls, humans can fall off cliffs on their head, running from a predator and get hit by a tree, and many others. Ever heard of the Darwin awards? People get killed in all sorts of creative ways, and I'd rather not assume a boring way like cannibalism. ;)
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline svrn

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2013, 01:54:39 pm »
Most people are not like you.  You'll see that when you get older.

Average person is not interested in change. I see that all over around me.  I work in a busy office.  I had numerous discussions with my co-workers about vaccines dangers and that I have not had one in over 20 years.  They all agree with me and next day they all go and get their shots.

You have no idea how many times I tell my wife and my parents about dangers eating bread.  They do it anyway.

Even Lex was saying his wife still follows her old diet.

Most people in the world are like my parents and Lex's wife.  They just don't change.

this is 100% my experience
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Offline svrn

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2013, 02:02:13 pm »
Studies have found that people with a genetic  tendency toward violence, are actually more likely to be peaceful and caring if raised in a peaceful environment. Evil has an environmentally triggered on and off switch. It is a survival mechanism that is latent even in the most docile and gentile of people. Just like in the violent behavior of the pit bull, evil only comes out under certain provocations.

This is true. Although the elites have a genetic predisposition to evil this must be nurtured from their earliest years with things such as ritualized sexual abuse or getting raped in boarding school. These events are very important in devloping the bloodthirst of the elites and making sure that the abused becomes the abuser.

Im not sure what the elites would call themselves. They must have royal blood. Whatever they are they would never mix their blood without someone not descended from their ancient bloodlines. They are very inbred this is why there are so many genetic diseases related to royalty all around the world.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2013, 03:19:21 pm »
Debunked my ass....
What is the opinion of sheep to a wolf?

I just don't see how you can disagree about our violent past
The point is about intra-species violence, not about violence between species. Please read the book "Sex at Dawn" of Christopher Ryan, PhD, and Cacilda Jethá, MD, freely downloadable here http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/6191785/ . It precisely answers to your arguments with tons of references.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Eric

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2013, 08:09:41 pm »
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Are humans intrinsically diabolical?

My answer: no.

But humans can certainly be trained to be diabolical, and once so trained they can be pretty damn diabolical. They can also be un-trained though, and doing so seems like a worthwhile pursuit, in my opinion.

Offline Poncho

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2013, 08:58:21 pm »
Most people are not like you.  You'll see that when you get older.

Fuck really?
Its the same concept as adopting a previously abused dog.
You've got your work cut out for you, but with complete dedication, even the most deranged dog can become man's best friend.
To think that human beings are any different, is either insulting to us, or thinking too much of us.
Try not to forget that in the end, were just animals.
And like pit-bulls, we have been bred wrong for so long, that most 'good' people think we're a lost cause.
It's just a misinformed thing to think.

http://love-a-bull.org
http://www.angelcitypits.org/i-love-my-pit-bull-psa
http://www.petfinder.com/pet-adoption/dog-adoption/reasons-why-pit-bulls-rule/

You can keep looking at the bad if you'd like,
but you're wasting your time.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 01:12:51 am »
Not every trainer knows how to rehabilitate every pitbull or other abused dog with perfect success. Also, we are talking a domesticated dog that is slightly short of property (technically yes property, but loved property).

I feed my dogs raw. Does that mean it's the dog's choice? No. A person's diet is their own choice. And it reflects in their dogs' diets.

What you are comparing that to is the same as saying a dog has a choice in their diet which they simply do not. Their owner chooses for them. Maybe you'd like to choose someone else's diet for them?
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Poncho

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 02:35:41 am »


I feed my dogs raw. Does that mean it's the dog's choice? No. A person's diet is their own choice. And it reflects in their dogs' diets.



The fact that you believe humans typically choose their own diets... oh god.
So I suppose you blame individuals for their smoking habits? haha
Do you really blame deranged serial killers for 'choosing' to do what they do?
Perhaps you blame everyone for simply not making the right choices, as if the choice was really theirs, and not simply a product of the events of their lives up to that point? What would you say a human is, other than a direct product of everything that has happened to them, been taught to them, and happened around them, throughout their lives?
Everything changes us. But we have the ability to overcome it all, when we are properly taught the truth.

Are you, by any chance, a high-ranking government official?


Offline Dr. D

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 02:42:22 am »

Are you, by any chance, a high-ranking government official?

That is simply rude and unnecessary. You are obviously no longer in this conversation for the sake of being open-minded. Have a nice day.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Poncho

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 02:55:28 am »
That is simply rude and unnecessary. You are obviously no longer in this conversation for the sake of being open-minded. Have a nice day.

Yes right, because your mind is closed, its me who must leave due to my mind being closed... very well overseer

Offline Iguana

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 03:38:18 am »
 
But humans can certainly be trained to be diabolical, and once so trained they can be pretty damn diabolical. They can also be un-trained though, and doing so seems like a worthwhile pursuit, in my opinion.

Yes, and the social organization of every civilization since the Neolithic has always been an excellent training ground to make people neurotic and aggressive: private property, social rules and laws,  money, army, police, judicial system, governments with chiefs and kings, overpopulation and huge concentrations of population in towns, dogmatic religions, social inequalities,  famines when crops failed, sexual frustration… and last but not least, exciting abnormal substances in wheat and cooked food.  -d

The population of the planet is estimated at less than 5 million during the Paleolithic era. Without private property, with immense unspoiled territories almost void of humans but packed with plenty of natural resources, what would have been worth fighting for?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Poncho

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 04:01:30 am »

Yes, and the social organization of every civilization since the Neolithic has always been an excellent training ground to make people neurotic and aggressive: private property, social rules and laws,  money, army, police, judicial system, governments with chiefs and kings, overpopulation and huge concentrations of population in towns, dogmatic religions, social inequalities,  famines when crops failed, sexual frustration… and last but not least, exciting abnormal substances in wheat and cooked food.  -d

The population of the planet is estimated at less than 5 million during the Paleolithic era. Without private property, with immense unspoiled territories almost void of humans but packed with plenty of natural resources, what would have been worth fighting for?

We need nature to intervene
I wonder why it hasnt yet

Offline Aura

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 05:49:10 am »

No, the devil is not inherently in all of us. The devil came into us with the changes in social organization and in diet initially sparked by using the fire for hunting and cooking. This finally resulted in the disaster of agriculture which implied  the transformation of the nomadic small tribes of egalitarians foragers into unmanageably large settled groups of  land owning, possessive farmers.

Humans are not devils. Agriculture, neolithic-modern social structures  and grain based diets make humans devils.

I could not have said it any better! l)

..More, this is a kind of question many scientist throughout the time  asked themselves and the results were more violence, more violations, oppressions and slavery in attempt to "have this evil tamed".

Back then we justifyed those abuses with the use of religions, saying that devils possessed bodies of people having them do evil things," today" with the advent of the new techno messiah, we justify with mental illnesses and treat them with synthetic chemicals.

But are we really dealing with the core issue? Not even a bit.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:58:33 am by Aura »

Offline Aura

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2013, 06:05:56 am »
We need nature to intervene
I wonder why it hasnt yet

Well, how can you say it did not?  :)

Are you waiting for some kind of a grand style catastrophic event?

Nature is "slowly" working everyday, every minute, every second.

She is alive, she responds to us, I can feel her better I am in the forest all day..

Perhaps it looks/feels like dead or defeated to those who spend their time disconnected from her.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 06:11:47 am by Aura »

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2013, 06:29:24 am »
Diabolical is in the eye of the beholder.

The evidence for cannibalism, among humans AND Neanderthals, is overwhelming.  I wouldn't dare argue against that, although I admit that I find it a little disturbing.  The question is, how did they die?
Honestly IDK, we are condensing eons of events into speculative eggshells, but from anecdotal evidence based on what warring tribal humans have been known to do, I think its a safe assumption that head hunting existed long before the neolithic age turned humanity evil.
The point is about intra-species violence, not about violence between species. Please read the book "Sex at Dawn" of Christopher Ryan, PhD, and Cacilda Jethá, MD, freely downloadable here http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/6191785/ . It precisely answers to your arguments with tons of references.



Im under attack , Trojans are at my gateway.....My filters wont let me download the book, anyway there is still much I doubt that the book could address in regards to our current predicament. Feel free to explain on this thread anything that would persuade me to think differently.

 Though I don't think we disagree on things, only we are looking at different issues. Sure we can say that ideally humans can live in peace and harmony with each other in small tribal groups, but the reality of today's world is so far removed that it would be suicidal for most people to attempt to abandon the violent ways of the modern man.


Yes, and the social organization of every civilization since the Neolithic has always been an excellent training ground to make people neurotic and aggressive: private property, social rules and laws,  money, army, police, judicial system, governments with chiefs and kings, overpopulation and huge concentrations of population in towns, dogmatic religions, social inequalities,  famines when crops failed, sexual frustration… and last but not least, exciting abnormal substances in wheat and cooked food.  -d

The population of the planet is estimated at less than 5 million during the Paleolithic era. Without private property, with immense unspoiled territories almost void of humans but packed with plenty of natural resources, what would have been worth fighting for?

So if this is true, what do the authors of Sex at Dawn suggest we do?

There will always be uncertainty in the future and no matter how well things seem to be going, humans still must retain the capacity to be intrinsically diabolical. Its insurance against total annihilation when times get apocalyptic. You can idealize all you want about the past, but I know Intrinsically, and am adamantly sure that my ancestors went though the inferno.  We can only imagine the hell that our ancestors endured in the times that history has forgotten, though it has left its mark upon everyone who is alive today. The genetic mutations that made us who we are were forged in the fiery inferno of pain and suffering. In that struggle for survival the spirit of man; capable of braving and beating all obstacles and against all, odds was born. Neither angel or devil, Mankind will become what ever nature demands of him(or her).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:10:55 am by sabertooth »
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline Eric

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2013, 07:02:15 am »
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Nature is "slowly" working everyday, every minute, every second...

Not to quibble, but recent flooding and such in Colorado, increased intensity of hurricanes and typhoons, etc. collectively don't feel like nature working slowly. Maybe I'm just biased though.

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...my ancestors went though the inferno...

They probably did. All people of European ancestry carry terrible historical and ancestral traumas. We can heal those though, with the right mentoring and support.

Offline Aura

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2013, 08:27:46 am »
Not to quibble, but recent flooding and such in Colorado, increased intensity of hurricanes and typhoons, etc. collectively don't feel like nature working slowly. Maybe I'm just biased though.

Hello Eric, I was referring more specifically on an "inner" level of human consciousness but even physically speaking, floods, hurricanes etc are a big thing from our point of view but little things on a universal, cosmic scale of events..

Still we have the tendency of associating Nature s fight for survival to such  extra-ordinary events,  - often anthropomorphisizing them to embody our own frustrations and desires to revenge -  but not on ordinary ones, such as the whispers of the wind, the warmth of the sun, your body BEING alive now..
Those too are powerful whispering sounds that things are constantly moving..

We humans did create time.  We are the only creature that gives time to Time.
That is why I wrote "slowly"
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:32:53 am by Aura »

Offline svrn

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2013, 02:09:07 pm »
Based on my experience 90% or more of the people i meet are incredibly good and wouldnt hurt anyone. This is part of the reason they have such a hard time believeing there`s people out there itching to murder billions of people and possessing the power to do it.

In fact most common criminals Iv known in my life had a general line they wouldn`t cross. Even those who were willing to hurt people to steal from them so they could eat wouldn`t want to kill someone. (unless an authority figure orders them, the intense brainwashing of militaries can override this instinct of general goodness)

It`s a very rare type of individual who was brought up in a very specific way who can kill millions of people and still feel great about it. A normal person would never be able to sleep after doing such a thing.

Perhaps it has to do with inbreeding elites go through as well. Breeders know that if you inbred too much you may end up with murderously insane animals.



« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:42:00 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2013, 04:05:01 pm »
Diabolical is in the eye of the beholder.
Honestly IDK, we are condensing eons of events into speculative eggshells, but from anecdotal evidence based on what warring tribal humans have been known to do, I think its a safe assumption that head hunting existed long before the neolithic age turned humanity evil.
Yes, I agree that head hunting would have existed before the Neolithic since it was practiced recently still amongst hunters-gatherers (and even by some US soldiers during WWII and Vietnam war).
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headhunting
Headhunting is the practice of taking and preserving a person's head after killing them. Headhunting was practiced in historic times in parts of Oceania, South and Southeast Asia, West and Central Africa, and Mesoamerica, as well as among certain tribes of the Celts, the West Germanic peoples, the Norse[1] and Scythians of ancient Europe. It occurred in Europe until the early 20th century in the Balkan Peninsula and to the end of the Middle Ages in Ireland and the Anglo-Scottish border regions.

During World War II, Allied (specifically including American) troops occasionally collected the skulls of dead Japanese as personal trophies, as souvenirs for friends and family at home, and for sale to others. (The practice was unique to the Pacific theater; German and Italian skulls were not taken.) The Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, in September 1942, mandated strong disciplinary action for any soldier who took enemy body parts as souvenirs. Nevertheless, trophy-hunting persisted: Life, in its issue of May 22, 1944, published a photograph of a young woman posing with the autographed skull sent to her by her Navy boyfriend, causing significant public outcry
Not sure, though, that it existed before the appearance of behavioral modernity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity, and even more doubtful that is was practiced before we controlled the fire and then used it for grilling food. 
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Im under attack , Trojans are at my gateway.....My filters wont let me download the book,
I sent you by e-mail the pdf of that book “Sex at Dawn”. BTW, Aura, your link for this pdf you made no longer works.
Quote
anyway there is still much I doubt that the book could address in regards to our current predicament. Feel free to explain on this thread anything that would persuade me to think differently.
This book is not meant to address our current predicament, but to try to establish a correct idea of what life would have been in the Paleolithic and debunk the recent, ill founded view that chimps and humans have always been inherently belligerent and violent against their own kind.   

Quote
Though I don't think we disagree on things, only we are looking at different issues. Sure we can say that ideally humans can live in peace and harmony with each other in small tribal groups, but the reality of today's world is so far removed that it would be suicidal for most people to attempt to abandon the violent ways of the modern man.
Do modern man always have violent ways? Sometimes, yes, but religious antagonism and nationalisms compounded by exciting substances in grain and cooked foods often ignite fights and wars. Sexual repression cause frustration, neurosis, loss of extrasensory perception and thus materialism and delinquency.   
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So if this is true, what do the authors of Sex at Dawn suggest we do?
I don’t feel they suggest what we have to do. They don’t seem to know about raw paleo diet and they even make a mistake in stating that we have used fire to cook food since a million years ago or so. But otherwise, the content of their book overlaps at 90% what GCB had been relentlessly telling in his “metasexuality” theory since the 70’s.

If a diet adapted to our species (an instinctive raw paleo diet) tends to normalize our sexual drives, then most aggressive and violent behavior would vanish and current social rules repressing our sexuality could be relaxed. Materialistic and possessive tendencies would also be largely reduced.   
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There will always be uncertainty in the future and no matter how well things seem to be going, humans still must retain the capacity to be intrinsically diabolical. Its insurance against total annihilation when times get apocalyptic.
Why? On the opposite, it seems to me that cooperation has always been a better way to insure survival than deadly fights and wars, which can lead to mutual annihilation.
Quote
You can idealize all you want about the past, but I know Intrinsically, and am adamantly sure that my ancestors went though the inferno.
Yes, but there are very strong clues that this inferno followed the shift from foraging-hunting-gathering to agriculture. It doesn’t mean that the life of our pre-fire ancestors was always enjoyable, but certainly nothing comparable to the abominable cruelties committed for example by the Assyrians, the inquisitors in the middle age, or in WW II by the Nazis and the burning alive of hundreds thousand civilians by the English/US incendiary bombing of Dresden. 
Quote
Neither angel or devil, Mankind will become what ever nature demands of him(or her).
And most of all, the conditions we inflict to ourselves.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Aura

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Re: Are humans intrinsically diabolical?
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2013, 01:44:53 am »
Aura, your link for this pdf you made no longer works.

I uploaded it on my google drive.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B35CHq__bQh7aUYtM0xrdW5oYzA/

Check it out.

As I already proposed on the "suggestion box" it would be a nice idea to have a Library/Mediateka section.

 

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