Author Topic: Eating excess fat?  (Read 9396 times)

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Offline Pumkin

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Eating excess fat?
« on: September 18, 2013, 11:05:30 am »
I heard a doctor, who uses ketogenic diets to treat cancer patients,  say fats do not, can not, get stored as fat.  the body will use it & any remaining fat eaten gets "excreted. "
But Glucose gets stored as fat. Precious fruit!  Weight gain (fat) is due to stored glucose (carbs and excess protein). Bottom line sounded like fats are not a problem so ketogenic lifestyle is best for us.

Your thoughts?
And is that rights? All excess fat gets eliminated thru bowels & does not store on the body?  Then How are all these fruit eating fruitarians so scary skinny if glucose turns to fat?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:25:36 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2013, 11:28:00 am »
I think it's a mix of what your body is adapted to (fat burning or carb burning) and eating one or the other (eating mostly fats or eating mostly carbs).

So if your body is used to eating carbs, you shouldn't be eating a lot of fat, i.e. fruitarians are low fat. Their body may have insulin spikes but there is no extra fat being put into their system so the insulin spike has no extra fat to bind to and make them fat. When people eat a lot of fat and are adapted to fat, they shouldn't consume many carbs, because any insulin produced will produce triglycerides and hold the fat in their cells for longer. When no insulin is produced, fat goes into cells, but because there is a lack of insulin, it comes out easily. Calories over time matter, because if you eat more than you can burn on a ZC diet for a long time, you are still putting in more fat than you can use. The reason it gets expelled at first is because it takes about 2 years to become fully fat adapted, as shown by Lex Rooker.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

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Offline eveheart

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2013, 10:23:30 pm »
I heard a doctor, who uses ketogenic diets to treat cancer patients,  say fats do not, can not, get stored as fat.  the body will use it & any remaining fat eaten gets "excreted. "
But Glucose gets stored as fat. Precious fruit!  Weight gain (fat) is due to stored glucose (carbs and excess protein). Bottom line sounded like fats are not a problem so ketogenic lifestyle is best for us.

Your thoughts?

Common knowledge. Insulin acting on glucose (made from ingested carbs and excess protein) is what creates stored body fat. There is no process whereby ingested fat can be converted to body fat.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2013, 11:36:26 pm »
That's nonsense, of course dietary fat can be stored by the body in adipose tissue.
I'm wondering how those doctors manage to become doctors.

Quote
There is no process whereby ingested fat can be converted to body fat.
You're joking, right? Perhaps it is certain types of fatty acids that can't be stored, but very untrue in general about ingested fat.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 11:42:01 pm by aLptHW4k4y »

Offline Pumkin

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 12:00:23 am »
Here's the interview-
http://oneradionetwork.com/health/dr-thomas-n-seyfried-the-management-and-prevention-of-cancer-using-the-ketogenic-diet-september-17-2013/

Really interesting  info on fats. I've avoid ketogenic diet experiments bc I hear they can really mess up your system long tern (thyroid I hear most about).
But this interview got me thinking.....
He's working with cancer patients but definitely  made it clear that excess fats do NOT store as fat but excess glucose does. 

Offline eveheart

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 08:15:55 am »
That's nonsense, of course dietary fat can be stored by the body in adipose tissue.
I'm wondering how those doctors manage to become doctors.
You're joking, right? Perhaps it is certain types of fatty acids that can't be stored, but very untrue in general about ingested fat.

I felt guilty for my wording ever since I posted my reply. Here's a clarification.

In normal dietary amounts (eating the amount of calories that one needs in a day), fat gets used as fuel. If you eat more than needed, the fat will be stored. In contrast, carbs can be stored as fat even when not over-consumed, leaving one hungry even after eating an adequate quantity of food. I guess the clue should have been the title of this topic, Eating excess fat. But seriously, eating simple raw fat does not make you eat to excess, so it's really a non-issue in RPD.
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Offline Dr. D

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 08:34:04 am »
I felt guilty for my wording ever since I posted my reply. Here's a clarification.

In normal dietary amounts (eating the amount of calories that one needs in a day), fat gets used as fuel. If you eat more than needed, the fat will be stored. In contrast, carbs can be stored as fat even when not over-consumed, leaving one hungry even after eating an adequate quantity of food. I guess the clue should have been the title of this topic, Eating excess fat. But seriously, eating simple raw fat does not make you eat to excess, so it's really a non-issue in RPD.

Yes, well put. Fat is wonderfully satiating, making it near impossible for one to "overeat" into obesity.

Also a study done (if someone asks me for a citation I can find it but it'd take me a day, it's a study cited in The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferris) put 3 groups on a semi-starvation diet of 1000 calories per day. Here's the results:

Group A-1000 Calories carbohydrates: gained 0.6 pounds per day
Group B-1000 Calories protein: lost 0.2 pounds per day
Group C-1000 Calories fat: lost 0.9 pounds per day

Proven that not all calories are equal, especially to a non-keto adapted body, likely those in the study. I'm sure the people who ate the carbs were hungry all day too, poor insulin spikes and drops. The fat people probably barely felt like they were being starved. 1000 cal in fat is so easy to not be hungry with.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Pumkin

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 09:20:18 am »
The doctor being interviewed states that fat can Not be stored, only used and the rest "excreted." 
He explains this starting about 15 minutes in (i posted the link above).
The interview was about killing cancer cells with ketogenic diets not weight issues.   
has anyone else come across proof that fat is excreted & not stored in the body?
I would like to look into it.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 10:01:41 am »
I am living proof that excess fat is excreted. Im not sure exactly how or why this happens but it does.

I stay at 170 pounds 6 foot tall and get at least 60 % of my calories from animal fats, and less than 10% carbs.

If I eat an excess amounts of fat I notice my stools become oily. The excess fat does get excreted. I have purposely eaten excess fat to try and gain weight and it is literally impossible to do without adding carbs.

The only time I ever gain weight is if I consume extra carbs, but excess carbs interfere with ketogenic adaption, so every time I attempt a carb increase, I am only able to get to about 175, before my digestion gets fouled up and I lose my apatite, and have to return to low carb diet.

It takes both fat and carbs together in order to increase fat reserves. Fruitarians who have no body fat and low dietary fat have nowhere for the carbs to be stored, so they must be burned off in the body. The issue with this is that it can lead to muscle wasting, its why many fruitarians are unnaturally skinny. Excess glucose without any fat to be stored inside of, will circulate in the body until it is used up in the muscle tissue, this often forces the muscles to take in more energy than they require; combined with the lack of protein and fat used to build muscle fiber, these fruit based diets leads to muscle wasting.

Its important to remember that most high carb diets that are responsible for obesity are not raw fruitarian, they usually consist of heavy grain use. Grain diets are high in carbs but also contain proteins(like gluten) and small to moderate amounts of unhealthy processed plant based fats that are difficult for a carb based metabolism to break down.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:33:26 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 10:18:34 am »
Yes, well put. Fat is wonderfully satiating, making it near impossible for one to "overeat" into obesity.

Also a study done (if someone asks me for a citation I can find it but it'd take me a day, it's a study cited in The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferris) put 3 groups on a semi-starvation diet of 1000 calories per day. Here's the results:

Group A-1000 Calories carbohydrates: gained 0.6 pounds per day
Group B-1000 Calories protein: lost 0.2 pounds per day
Group C-1000 Calories fat: lost 0.9 pounds per day

Proven that not all calories are equal, especially to a non-keto adapted body, likely those in the study. I'm sure the people who ate the carbs were hungry all day too, poor insulin spikes and drops. The fat people probably barely felt like they were being starved. 1000 cal in fat is so easy to not be hungry with.

If you eat pure glucose every day without any other food  you will become deathly ill in about 10 days. You will live longer on a water fast than you would consuming sugar.

If you eat pure protein everyday without any other food, you will get rabbit starvation.

Not sure about a pure fat diet. It would be an interesting subject to explore.
Inuit have been known to live on a diet of 80% animal fat.
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Offline Pumkin

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2013, 10:45:28 am »
Thank you sabertooth :-)
Your personal experience is helpful. We hear a lot of things contradicting the last study but personal experience is a whole nother thing.
What vegetables do you consume that keep carbs so low? Do you actually need to watch quantity of greens  to keep producing ketones? 
Do you feel well, even in the beginning?  I got muscle cramps (that woke me up, I even took magnesium) & sleeplessness most the month I tried low carb.  I only ate greens and nonsweet fruits for produce and mainly cooked whole ck & fatty raw fish for protein & fats.   

Offline eveheart

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2013, 11:25:16 am »
The doctor being interviewed states that fat can Not be stored, only used and the rest "excreted." 

What that doctor said is true of fatty acids. They are used or excreted. Dietary fats are triglicerides - glycerols and fatty acids. If you need more explanation of what happens to the glycerols, I'm not the person to provide it.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2013, 01:13:42 pm »
What that doctor said is true of fatty acids. They are used or excreted. Dietary fats are triglicerides - glycerols and fatty acids. If you need more explanation of what happens to the glycerols, I'm not the person to provide it.

The father of one of my daughter's friends is a microbiology professor, and he said that the body takes carbs and fats both and tries to convert them into ketones, which are sort of a 'middle ground', not fast-burning OR slow-burning.  These ketones are what the body likes to use, and so it converts whatever you fuel it with into them.  That's what he said, anyway.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2013, 02:21:07 pm »
Perhaps a ketogenic diet therefore works well or better for most.. save exceptions like Tyler? Perhaps Tyler is even already producing and using ketones more easily than others and when he eliminates carbs he goes too deep into ketosis, causing the difficulties of ketonuria?

I prefer ketosis under most circumstances and I'm still trying to find my balanced middle, and I'm willing to accept that most people are different. However the subject interests me greatly.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:32:06 pm by TylerDurden »
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 02:38:49 pm »
Perhaps a ketogenic diet therefore works well or better for most.. save exceptions like Tyler? Perhaps Tyler is even already producing and using ketones more easily than others and when he eliminates carbs he goes too deep into ketosis, causing the difficulties of ketonuria?

I prefer ketosis under most circumstances and I'm still trying to find my balanced middle, and I'm willing to accept that most people are different. However the subject interests me greatly.
There seem to be rather too many so-called  "exceptions" who can`t handle a ketogenic diet, raw or cooked! In my own case, I first experienced a big benefit re increased concentration-levels and alertness on a raw, ketogenic diet, with a sudden decrease in physical performance re sport,  and then, after c.3 weeks, I started quickly getting some very nasty  health-problems such as my teeth suddenly becoming very loose like they were pre-RPD diet and many other problems such as fatigue etc.
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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2013, 04:30:26 pm »
If I eat an excess amounts of fat I notice my stools become oily. The excess fat does get excreted. I have purposely eaten excess fat to try and gain weight and it is literally impossible to do without adding carbs.
It does not get excreted because it cannot be stored, but because you have a limited capacity to digest it. We have obviously not evolved to be able to digest huge amounts of fat, amount of bile for example seems rather limited.

Offline jessica

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2013, 09:22:16 pm »
Is everyone opposed to carrying around a bit of extra fat on the body?  I almost feel like the remorse for fat is very culturally indoctrinated, most people strive to be so lean, just on the brink of starvation if you ask me, I really am not sure, as a global culture, our idea of body image is healthy.  I almost feel this is why people are sick, and also what leads people to be overweight in some cases, they would never be able to fit into the cultural ideals, and therefor feel disappointment, eat shit food and go off the deep end.  I am not saying that is the only cause but it definitely warrant consideration.

Especially in the fall I think its important to listen to natural signals, if your body wants carbs before the winter season, and there are fresh local sources, and you continue to feel happy and content eatin them, might as well imbibe.  Its always nice to gain a few pounds and when the colder weather comes feel able to continue to work and be outdoors with a little less discomfort from the cold.  Its also nice to them let the weather seep in and, if you live in a climate like I have, let the winter take over, a natural cycle of then slipping back into lower carb eating does occur, because there are few sources of carb food, especially late winter, early spring.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2013, 12:03:57 am »
There seem to be rather too many so-called  "exceptions" who can`t handle a ketogenic diet, raw or cooked! In my own case, I first experienced a big benefit re increased concentration-levels and alertness on a raw, ketogenic diet, with a sudden decrease in physical performance re sport,  and then, after c.3 weeks, I started quickly getting some very nasty  health-problems such as my teeth suddenly becoming very loose like they were pre-RPD diet and many other problems such as fatigue etc.


How many carbs per day do you eat, approximately? Last I remember reading you said about 50-100? Have you ever tested yourself with a blood ketone meter?


This last week when I increased exercise I think I was going through another keto adaptation. I had depleted my glycogen further and had to choose. Now I added some carbs to restore them and still blew. 03 on the breathalyzer, showing presence of ketones.

I'm fully aware and not going to argue that many are not able to do a ketogenic diet for whatever reason. I was just rambling my curiosity over the scientific issues that occur on that one thing. Afterall, all babies are born in a ketogenic state, so either some damage occurs along the way or needs drastically change for those who struggle in ketosis.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2013, 12:13:05 am »
I wish more people (especially women) thought like you jessica.

Offline Greenbalance

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 01:29:43 am »
Jessica I just love the way You think. I see a lot of young women who want be skinny and this is their biggest priority. They do not care about health, they are always hungry and angry. I was there too. But now I prefer to eat as much as my body wants (of course healthy food) and be happy. As you said in our conversation - it makes me mentally stable.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Eating excess fat?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2013, 06:33:27 am »
Thank you sabertooth :-)
Your personal experience is helpful. We hear a lot of things contradicting the last study but personal experience is a whole nother thing.
What vegetables do you consume that keep carbs so low? Do you actually need to watch quantity of greens  to keep producing ketones? 
Do you feel well, even in the beginning?  I got muscle cramps (that woke me up, I even took magnesium) & sleeplessness most the month I tried low carb.  I only ate greens and nonsweet fruits for produce and mainly cooked whole ck & fatty raw fish for protein & fats.   

I am somewhat a special case, my digestion was badly impaired, coming to this diet , and my pancreas wasn't producing enough insulin or digestive enzymes to digest carbohydrates, and for some reason my liver would produce excess carbs. My blood sugars would rise even after fasting over night.

I eat coconut, tomatoes, avocados and some variation of salad greens. I limit it to one salad a day. Too much vegetable fiber interferes with fat digestion.

 The cramping could be do to excess protein, along with the inability to use fat as your main fuel source. It doesn't seem like magnesium deficiency. I had leg cramps early in the diet, and others have complained about it as well. I generally feel well, I was pre diabetic and found immediate relief from years of struggling with sickness .
It does not get excreted because it cannot be stored, but because you have a limited capacity to digest it. We have obviously not evolved to be able to digest huge amounts of fat, amount of bile for example seems rather limited.

This is in part true, but you are missing a key point.

You could also say that humans evolved to only be able to digest so much protein, thats why they get rabbit starvation.

Or you could say we are only capable of handling so many carbs. If you eat more carbs than your endocrine system can metabolize, or your pancreases can produce enzymes to digest, you will absorb the carbs anyway in their undigested form, and what cant be properly assimilated and stored as fat will pollute the body in the form of metabolic waste.

Excess fats are far less harmful to the body, and perhaps my body only produces enough bile to digest what is needed. Some days my requirements are higher and my apatite for fat increases, along with my ability to digest large amounts... other times it decreases.

This is hypothesis, and I don't claim to know for sure, but I seriously doubt the claim that excess fat in the diet can be stored as fat in the body without the ingestion of carbohydrates. Sure the liver produces some carbs from protein up to 100 or so a day, and in a limited way it may be possible to store some fat without carbs, but without dietary carbs it is virtually impossible to add substantial body fat.

The body doesn't absorb excess fat through the digestion because it cant be stored. Only with the presence of insulin and the other pancreatic enzymes involved with carb digestion can fat be assimilated into fat in the body.

Jessica I just love the way You think. I see a lot of young women who want be skinny and this is their biggest priority. They do not care about health, they are always hungry and angry. I was there too. But now I prefer to eat as much as my body wants (of course healthy food) and be happy. As you said in our conversation - it makes me mentally stable.
I like a women with meat on her bones...especial if they are also mentally stable.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

 

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