Author Topic: Organic - or not?  (Read 4364 times)

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Offline LePatron7

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Organic - or not?
« on: September 12, 2013, 07:23:12 am »
So AV's dead. Instead of arguing about whether he was assassinated or not. Why don't we discuss how we, as a group of concerned individuals working together, can ensure the safety off our food supply?

I read an article earlier saying the FDA wants to confine all organic chickens to cages to prevent salmonella contamination. I like pastured eggs.

Monsanto and other bio tech companies are soon to have GMO salmon, oranges, bananas, and more. I buy conventional produce, and occasionally eat sashimi at sushi restaurants. How can we get that labeled?
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 10:14:08 am »

I read an article earlier saying the FDA wants to confine all organic chickens to cages to prevent salmonella contamination. I like pastured eggs.

Organic agricultural methods are not 100 percent without issues , and pesticides derived organically are still suspect.

FDA Organic labeling has been somewhat farcical. A.V. has warned for years about the questionable quality of organic produce.

 Caged chickens fed a diet of organic grains are not organic I don't give a damn what the FDA thinks about it.

The FDA lets GMO fed animals to be labeled all natural.

I am shifting from my early idealism into a more cynical realistic view, that we are not going to stop what Monsanto is doing, and the FDA will not ever serve the interest of the food purist

Supporting local co-oops that source from permicultural farms that are completely chemical free, is really the only reasonable option for people like us to keep our rights to pure food.

The best food in the world wont have an FDA label on it. The FDA brand should be boycotted by any one who is serious.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline svrn

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 04:24:06 pm »
If the aajonus/palmer debacle proves anything, its tht you cant trust any food source other than your own.

even though aajonus was overseeing the rawesome project the previously convicted fraudsters got in and snuck in their arsenic contaminated eggs. this type of food fraud is more common than you think and its scary.

the only solution is grow yourown food.
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 07:04:30 pm »
Quote
Organic agricultural methods are not 100 percent without issues...

Bingo. I do energy audits on farms and get to visit a lot of farms, both organic and conventional. I've pretty much decided that there's no meaningful difference between organic and conventional food anymore, at least relative to the quality of food I want to eat.

I've come to believe that the pressures associated with commercializing the production of food simply don't permit farmers to deliver a product of adequate quality. The best foods will only be available outside of the commercial sphere, to those who raise or grow it themselves, those who hunt and forage, or those who cultivate relationships with food producers who operate wholly outside the commercial food system.

Offline svrn

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 02:29:06 am »
isnt it true however that in america you count on organic food not being gmo and not being irradiated?

wouldnt just those things in themselves make a little extra price tag worth it?
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Offline eveheart

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 03:36:26 am »
isnt it true however that in america you count on organic food not being gmo and not being irradiated?

wouldnt just those things in themselves make a little extra price tag worth it?

To me, non-GMO and no irradiation are just a drop in the bucket. There are still the other practices, such as monoculture,  hybridization for sweetness or hardiness to mechanical harvesting, and prolonged field-to-table times that reduce the value of "organic" foods.

Then, there are absurdities, such as organic grain-fed beef, where the word "organic" is meant to pacify us into thinking that something is right when it is totally wrong.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Iguana

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 04:07:37 am »
Organic plant foods generally contain much less (or no) synthetic pesticides. But…

- They’re often sprayed with copper sulfate and some pesticides authorized for organic products.
- Organic farmers use heat and fire to destroy weeds and they often keep big piles of compost which heat up by fermenting and sun exposure.
- They use manure of animals fed with heated food, which may well be worse than chemical fertilizers.
- Organic foods are expensive.
- The choice range of organic foods is generally limited.

In  France, I bought my plant foods from an organic shop selling good quality and tasty products not much more expensive than non-organic. Moreover, they often gave me overripe  fruits and unsold vegetables from the previous week, for free.

But here, organic fruits and veggies are twice or even 3 times the price of others. I prefer to buy very cheap and good plant foods from saturday’s farmers’ market, preferably the smallest, wildest and imperfect looking fruits. I also found an abandoned orchard with a loquat tree, a few apples trees and about a hundred pear trees loaded with millions of small pears.  :D But as I have plenty other foods, I don’t eat many pears or apples.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 05:29:56 am by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline jessica

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 09:07:14 am »
Iguana, flaming weeds just mimics what all those fires that we suppress would do anyway, its actually a great way to add nutrients to soil.  I have never used copper sulfate on a farm, I would like to know what crops require this?  Organic farmers are careful where they source there manure, you can really cause some issues if you are not sure about what kind of feces and from whom you are spreading on your fields.  Heat is necessary for organic matter to turn back into soil, during the winter the inside of compost files keep very warm and keep bacteria and fungus alive and thriving so that it can continue to break down into soil.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 03:32:58 pm »
Completely burned organic matter is pure carbon, which is not not toxic (plus minerals) but there's production of new chemical species (abnormal molecules) when organic matter is heated or spontaneously heats over circa 40° C.

It's exactly the same than for our food. These abnormal molecules are absorbed but the plant grown on it and we ingest them in turn when we eat the fruits / veggies.  -d

Flaming weeds give a gradient of temperatures to the soil underneath and thus there are some new chemical species produced in a certain layer containing insects, worms, bacteria, etc. which are killed by heat but not necessarily completely grilled into carbon.

Ok, this sometimes happen naturally  by wildfire caused by lightnings or volcanic eruptions, but it was not quite common (except perhaps in Western USA) and almost unknown in most areas. Anyway, that's why animals including us have detoxification processes available. These processes are adapted to occasional small amounts of abnormal substances produced by overheated organic matter.   

Organic farmers are completely unaware of the damages caused by heat. I mean heat at which living process can't operate anymore, and again, that is over circa 40° C.

Feces of animals and humans fed cooked food pollute the soil and the plants grown on it —  the air as well judging by the stench! Wild animals feces and those of animals fed their natural, ancestral diet for more than a generation don't stink. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2013, 02:11:38 am »
Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. Copper sulfate is widely used in vineyards, on tomatoes plants, melons, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper%28II%29_sulfate

You can often see the blue deposit it leaves, especially on grapes.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline RogueFarmer

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Re: Organic - or not?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 10:38:11 pm »
I do not know of any hazards of copper sulfate which in high levels is poisonous but without it's presence fungus diseases and parasite take over crop and animal alike. copper sulfate is the best and least poisonous way i know of to get a large supply of copper to make up for large shortfalls that we farmers experience in a lot of the eastern united states and elsewhere. my goats will even eat it plain, though it is harsh so they prefer it mixed with other minerals, but they will eat both the minerals with added copper and without. forest fires used to be more common, but woods not as thick, so they were not as severe we humans burn grasslands and crop lands to excess, it creates enormous levels of pollution and destroys the mineral content of the soil.                                               vaccines are organic certifiable for use in livestock so...                                   there are other unanswered questions                                            aajonus and others have spoke of a preference of traditional societies for tough meat from older intact male animals. many breeds of cattle are bred for high fat levels. these animals commonly have lower longevity. certain breeds are known for stupendant longevity. however low body fat dairy breeds also typically have a lower longevity. should meat be docile or aggressive? it certainly isn't as fun to keep aggressive animals. bison are much harder to farm than cattle and can not be used as effectively as a tractor, cultivator, seed planter and bed packer and mulcher as a beef cow can.                                              i do not really believe there is a way to feed more people a healthy diet as cheaply, easily and with as little labor as a beef herd at large scale. sheep are right behind.

 

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