Author Topic: RPD & Lifestyle ebook  (Read 19510 times)

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Offline Haai

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RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« on: October 12, 2013, 04:27:31 pm »
Hey guys,

for those interested, I've published an ebook about the Raw Paleo Diet & lifestyle. Due to the time and effort involved in writing it (more than 560 scientific references, many of which were not accessible for free), not to mention the formatting, I have decided to put a price on it, although I believe about the first 20 percent of the book can be read for free. It's available through smashwords ( https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/366528 ) and amazon kdp.

I hope someone finds it useful, or at least interesting!
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 08:46:04 pm »
Congratulations! According to the few pages I already read, it appears to be a masterpiece. I imagine the colossal amount of work needed to search and examine all these 560 references and then make such a readable synthesis.

How long did it take to achieve all this? What's the price for the whole version? I didn't see it mentioned.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 09:12:19 pm »
Looks pretty nice. I get paid on Tuesday, so I'll make the purchase then.

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 09:13:45 pm »
Also, for whatever it's worth, I teach at a university and have access to most peer-reviewed articles at no cost. If you ever need something and don't want to have to pay for it straight up, send me an email with the citation and I can probably get it for you. Odds are I'll want to read it too.

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 09:18:32 pm »
Thanks guys!

Iguana, the price is USD 9.45. Which is approx. eur 6.95 I believe.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 09:20:16 pm »
I was working on it for about 5 months by the way.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2013, 01:40:03 am »
Excellent book, I highly recommend it. 5 months only? You’re very efficient!

Just a remark: page 15, you assimilate honey to refined sugars. But honey is not refined, unlike industrial sucrose, which is highly processed until it becomes > 99% chemically pure C12H22O11. On the contrary, glucose in honey is deeply embedded in plenty minerals, trace elements, vitamins and a profusion of other extremely complex organic structures. Same for unprocessed, unrefined glucose and fructose in fruits (page 16). Unmixed, unheated honey, from bees never fed sucrose, cannot be eaten in too large amounts. Personally, when I eat some (which is very seldom), it’s in very small amounts only. It burn my mouth if I attempt to eat too much of it.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 04:12:42 am »
Excellent book, I highly recommend it. 5 months only? You’re very efficient!

Just a remark: page 15, you assimilate honey to refined sugars. But honey is not refined, unlike industrial sucrose, which is highly processed until it becomes > 99% chemically pure C12H22O11. On the contrary, glucose in honey is deeply embedded in plenty minerals, trace elements, vitamins and a profusion of other extremely complex organic structures. Same for unprocessed, unrefined glucose and fructose in fruits (page 16). Unmixed, unheated honey, from bees never fed sucrose, cannot be eaten in too large amounts. Personally, when I eat some (which is very seldom), it’s in very small amounts only. It burn my mouth if I attempt to eat too much of it.


Yes I managed to get it done in 5 months only because I have been unemployed since early July. So I was able to work on it for many hours daily.
Perhaps I should have used, "concentrated source of sugar", rather than "refined sugar", when describing honey. Maybe it could be argued, though, that honey is processed nectar, and that a refining process is carried out by the bees to produce the honey. In which case you could say that honey is a refined product. Or maybe I'm just clutching at straws lol.

When I eat honey (which is rarely), including unheated raw honey comb (I've even bought it from Orkos before), I can eat a lot of it. I believe that on the rare occasions that honeycomb is eaten by contemporary hunter-gatherers, it is eaten in relatively large amounts.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline van

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 05:48:37 am »
I agree with being able to eat a lot.  And it does have a sugar rush.  I also think that typical (what ever that would mean) hg's would find hives so infrequently that it would be a rare treat vs. a food source, thus they could eat quite a bit and not have any real adverse effects long term.   
   I also like very much your straight forward approach with your essay.  Very well laid out and easy to follow.  I like the lack of bias in it too. Well done!

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 06:05:03 pm »
I also like very much your straight forward approach with your essay.  Very well laid out and easy to follow.  I like the lack of bias in it too. Well done!

Thanks for the compliments van. I try to be as unbiased as possible. Primal dieters amongst us may not agree with most of what I wrote about dairy; however, what I wrote was based on scientific research. And for what it's worth, I wish dairy was good for me, because it is delicious. I have experimented with raw (sheep/goat/cow) dairy products in the past, all organic and from pastured animals ofcourse, and, let's just say, it didn't agree with me.
For those of you that haven't read it, I do mention that small quantities of raw milk may have been consumed in the Palaeolithic Era from the udders of lactating female mammals or the stomachs of their young, when these animals were preyed upon. But this would obviously have been seasonal. For this reason I later mention that raw milk/dairy, in small quantities, could be a suitable Paleo "cheat" food. However, and this is just my opinion, it is quite possible that our Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors would have completely avoided dairy from the udders and stomachs of the prey items previously mentioned, due to the highly uncomfortable symptoms related to lactose-intolerance. Even the likes of rats and mice will avoid food that, having eaten it once, made them ill.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 07:48:08 pm »
The African honey guide bird has led humans to honey for many thousands of years and has even developed a special call just for human beings, and humans developed a call for the bird, making it almost child's play to find the honey.

Birds lead human to honey

During peak years, in the peak season of several weeks, humans had more honey than they could eat, even if gorging. The key limiter seems to have been seasonality and low years in which bee food (largely tree and flower nectar) was scarce and the bees thus produced less honey.

Both humans and honey badgers know to leave some of the honeycomb for the helpful bird. In this video, the honey guide bird even vocally reminds the honey badger to share:

The honey guide bird leads the honey badger ( Amazing Partnership )

When humans started settling down, they began storing and fermenting the honey to last them months (while fermentation is not necessary if the honey is stored well, it makes it easier to store without being spoiled by unwanted microbes), eventually the whole year. Humans had long before figured out that if they added water, put the mixture in a bag made from the hide of a goat, sheep or other animal, and kept it warm near a fire, it would produce a mildly alcoholic beverage (mead). If they fermented it for long periods, it could even be made quite strong.

Quote
"The traditional Maasai diet consists of six basic foods: meat, blood, milk, fat, honey, and tree bark. ....

Honey is obtained from the Torrobo tribe and is a prime ingredient in mead, a fermented beverage that only elders may drink. In recent times, fermented maize (corn) with millet yeast or a mixture of fermented sugar and baking powder have become the primary ingredients of mead."

Read more: Maasai - Introduction, Location, Language, Folklore, Religion, Major holidays, Rites of passage, Relationships, Living conditions http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Tajikistan-to-Zimbabwe/Maasai.html#ixzz20grwhJky
Later in Europe, great mead halls were built in which men gathered and  reportedly drank enormous quantities of mead (which with increasing frequency over time could include neolithic ingredients, like grapes and barley, depending on what easily fermentable crops grew in the region, http://www.penn.museum/sites/Midas/feastremains.shtml, and the neolithic ingredients eventually eclipsed honey, as they were more easily mass-produced) and if needed could somehow still fight a battle the next early morning. It was apparently even customary and encouraged to gorge on mead the night before a battle, and mead was sometimes reserved for warriors and leaders, or elders. However, I wouldn't recommend gorging on honey or mead regularly. It seems our ancestors were more robust than most of us today and we do not have the same high quality food sources and natural robustifying lifestyles they had.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 08:45:17 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 08:26:11 pm »
I guess humans can eat a lot of honey when it's about the only source of sugar they have. As I eat enough fruits, I'm not so attracted to honey and can't eat much of it.

These last years, I ate plenty of figs and just some months ago I bought some at the farmers' market. Eventually the figs on my own trees ripened, but by then I could barely eat figs... !
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 09:12:27 pm »
Thanks for the compliments van. I try to be as unbiased as possible. Primal dieters amongst us may not agree with most of what I wrote about dairy; however, what I wrote was based on scientific research. And for what it's worth, I wish dairy was good for me, because it is delicious. I have experimented with raw (sheep/goat/cow) dairy products in the past, all organic and from pastured animals ofcourse, and, let's just say, it didn't agree with me.
For those of you that haven't read it, I do mention that small quantities of raw milk may have been consumed in the Palaeolithic Era from the udders of lactating female mammals or the stomachs of their young, when these animals were preyed upon. But this would obviously have been seasonal. For this reason I later mention that raw milk/dairy, in small quantities, could be a suitable Paleo "cheat" food. However, and this is just my opinion, it is quite possible that our Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors would have completely avoided dairy from the udders and stomachs of the prey items previously mentioned, due to the highly uncomfortable symptoms related to lactose-intolerance. Even the likes of rats and mice will avoid food that, having eaten it once, made them ill.
This is quite wrong. In order to get milk from the udders, one needs to stimulate the udders via suckling etc. which stimulates hormones which then produce the milk. Once the animal is dead, there is bugger all milk, so, no, palaeo humans had no access to milk, raw or otherwise.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 10:01:47 pm »
That's what the experiment Bruno Comby had the opportunity to do showed.  It's here
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-8331/msg108942/#msg108942
and it's been thoroughly discussed and challenged in the following page. So, perhaps, hominids could have - very infrequently - drank a tiny amount of milk. It’s like they, but extremely seldom, could have access to some grilled food after a volcanic eruption or a wildfire.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 10:45:13 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2013, 10:27:19 pm »
Thanks, Iguana for confirming that dairy-intake in palaeo times was close to nonexistent. I  have included the relevant text in the info for newbies section.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2013, 10:44:21 pm »
This is quite wrong. In order to get milk from the udders, one needs to stimulate the udders via suckling etc. which stimulates hormones which then produce the milk. Once the animal is dead, there is bugger all milk, so, no, palaeo humans had no access to milk, raw or otherwise.

I can't find it now, but I am sure I have seen a (youtube?) video of a lion lapping milk from the udder of an antelope or some other species, which it had killed. But anyway, if you checkout the anatomy of an udder, there are some milk storage compartments, for example the udder cistern. Of course, the udders of wild animals are much smaller than domesticated animals that are bred to produce large quantities of milk. Also, you seem to ignore the bit about the stomachs of young mammals containing milk after having suckled. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the consumption of milk by humans in the Palaeolithic was very likely negligible, which I also wrote in the ebook.
But as Iguana points out, this has already been discussed.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 12:54:18 am »
The only time I've found milk in the wild was in that young deers stomach that I found as roadkill. It actually had turned to cheese and there was about 1/2 pound worth. It had a bit of green with it which I assumed was grass and possibly the beginning of curdling molds turning into more cheese. No appeal to me, it seemed closer to fecal matter than actual food.

Iirc my dogs did try to eat it. I didn't want them to.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2013, 01:14:13 am »
I can't find it now, but I am sure I have seen a (youtube?) video of a lion lapping milk from the udder of an antelope or some other species, which it had killed. But anyway, if you checkout the anatomy of an udder, there are some milk storage compartments, for example the udder cistern. Of course, the udders of wild animals are much smaller than domesticated animals that are bred to produce large quantities of milk. Also, you seem to ignore the bit about the stomachs of young mammals containing milk after having suckled. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the consumption of milk by humans in the Palaeolithic was very likely negligible, which I also wrote in the ebook.
But as Iguana points out, this has already been discussed.
The point is that, even so, intake of milk was on a microscopic level since Comby et al point out that milk production needs to be stimulated by suckling a live mammal. Other than that, actual milk in an udder from a non-domesticated dead animal is virtually nonexistent, just  involving a few drops like Comby stated. Milk in a young animal`s stomach is also not the same as standard fresh raw milk as it is  being fermented/digested further  in the stomach. So no palaeo peoples could ever have eaten raw dairy regularly and therefore would never have adapted to it.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2013, 01:15:47 am »
Incidentally, I rather admire GCB for being anti-raw dairy. As a  guru, he could easily have stated that raw dairy was a wonderful food so as to gain more converts to his diet. After all, most people find it much quicker to get used to the taste of  raw dairy than the taste of  fresh, raw meats.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2013, 02:19:20 am »
Stone Age milk consumption

This is quite wrong. In order to get milk from the udders, one needs to stimulate the udders via suckling etc. which stimulates hormones which then produce the milk. Once the animal is dead, there is bugger all milk, so, no, palaeo humans had no access to milk, raw or otherwise.
I used to think that too (and had even been criticized as too anti-dairy in the past by WAP fans and some other people elsewhere--possibly also here, I don't recall now) until I came across counter-evidence that I already shared in a thread you participated in here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-8331/msg109083/#msg109083

The post was a tad long, so perhaps this most relevant part was missed:
Quote
> From The Old Way: A Story of the First People [Bushmen hunter-gatherers of Africa], by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, page 23:

"When I got there, the mother gemsbok and her calf were dead and the leopard had run away. ... The mother had milk in her udder, which had four teats like goats' teats, all covered with hair, two large teats in front and two small teats behind. The two men milked her, stroking the milk veins in the bag, milking a squirt into their palm and licking it off. The gemsbok, lying on her side with one hind leg lightly raised, was so big that both men could squat below the leg to milk her. I tasted some milk, which was strong and gamey, also harsh and salty, very different from the mild, sweet milk of cows. Then the two men rolled her on her back, skinned and opened her belly, then opened the rumen. ...."

> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche: "The Comanches sometimes ate raw meat, especially raw liver flavored with gall. They also drank the milk from the slashed udders of buffalo, deer, and elk. Among their delicacies was the curdled milk from the stomachs of suckling buffalo calves, and they also enjoyed buffalo tripe, or stomachs."
I've also seen reports of similar things from dairy advocates, which I was at first skeptical about, until I found confirmation. So it's apparently possible to get milk from a dead animal (including one that was killed earlier by a leopard) and perhaps at least some Paleo hunter gatherers consumed some milk, probably fermented when there was a particularly full udder, but not a lot  and only seasonally and intermittently. At the least, it seems we can't rule it out. Of course, no one was there to witness it either way, so the debates will never end and it always comes down to personal experimentation in the end.

Lactose intolerance

The lactose intolerance issue gets brought up frequently when milk is discussed, but it was largely a non-issue in hunter-gatherer and traditional societies due to either fermentation or small and intermittent intakes. I suspect that one reason why the Masai and some other pastoral peoples never developed much lactase persistence despite consuming large quantities of milk for thousands of years (see "Lactose malabsorption among Masai children of East Africa," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925) is that they almost always fermented milk before consuming it, and rural Masai still do, which apparently eliminates most of the need for lactase. Apparently, they also often consumed it raw and added blood. All these practices are rare in the modern world.

Most people in the West no longer follow the traditional dairy practices and there are wide variations in tolerances, so YMMV, as always. I'm neither advocating milk, nor discouraging it, just sharing what I found.

Raw dairy: one reason why there will never be wide consensus on an RPD ebook

Dairy is always a hot topic in Paleo circles, with strong opinions on both sides that are not likely to change in most cases (with rare exceptions, such as mine--I try to go wherever the evidence takes me, rather than seek confirmation of my existing opinions, and it's not easy), regardless of the evidence, which is complex and mixed and thus grist for much debate and a major reason why there will never be wide consensus on an RPD ebook.

I do agree that much of the strong, emotional, and sometimes rabid support for dairy likely comes in large part from its tastiness and it's a bit of a turn-off for me (and probably partly why I was more negative and suspicious about dairy early on--fanaticism often accompanies misleading myths, though even then there can be a kernel of truth in it). Also, some of the most vehement anti-dairy opinions come from vegans and ex-vegans (who tend to have or been influenced in the past by ethics-based views on the topic that can be highly emotional), and the Internet is full of them. So it seems pretty much a wash on that front. One could cater to either crowd.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 02:39:51 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 03:30:40 am »
Incidentally, I rather admire GCB for being anti-raw dairy. As a  guru, he could easily have stated that raw dairy was a wonderful food so as to gain more converts to his diet. After all, most people find it much quicker to get used to the taste of  raw dairy than the taste of  fresh, raw meats.
   Bruno, who I've spent a few days with, was already steeped in instincto.   But I agree about the availability of milk.  One thing we're all missing here is if you look at societies who use dairy, milk as it comes out of the udder is rarely used (except by children).  Cheese is preferred ( have you ever seen a Frenchman go into a restaurant and order a glass of milk) and or cultures like the Caucus peoples or the Masai who mix it with blood and allow it to ferment.  There has been mentioned about our bodies ability to recognize and hence digest say a cow molecule of milk.  But I'd argue that fermenting or having the milk go through a lengthy cheese culturing process breaks it down and makes it more digestible on many levels.  Some of the longest lived and healthiest peoples were those in the Lowenthal valley of Switzerland (spelling). 

Offline Ioanna

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 03:53:42 am »
Also, for whatever it's worth, I teach at a university and have access to most peer-reviewed articles at no cost. If you ever need something and don't want to have to pay for it straight up, send me an email with the citation and I can probably get it for you. Odds are I'll want to read it too.

i have this access also. if i can get an article for anyone please let me know!

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 04:52:08 am »
So it's apparently possible to get milk from a dead animal (including one that was killed earlier by a leopard) and perhaps at least some Paleo hunter gatherers consumed some milk, probably fermented when there was a particularly full udder, but not a lot  and only seasonally and intermittently. At the least, it seems we can't rule it out. Of course, no one was there to witness it either way, so the debates will never end and it always comes down to personal experimentation in the end.

AFAIK, all the experimentations of people on steady, 100% raw instinctive paleo nutrition have been negative or even catastrophic. On of the 4 first guys to practice this nutrition (he started around 1965, assisting his friends GCB and wife Nicole to work it out) told me “the worst raw diet proved to be “instincto” with milk”.

Ok: as you say, the possibility is not excluded  that some paleo hunter-gatherers occasionally consumed a little bit of milk. Probably about the same rare occurrence as they sometimes may have eaten some food grilled on hot lava after a volcanic eruption or wildfire.

I would like the quote from Wikipedia corroborated by another source before I could totally trust it. It has no reference but nevertheless lacks the usual mention “citation needed”. Anyway, these people used to cook food and had sophisticated hunting weapons and tools.

Bruno, who I've spent a few days with, was already steeped in instincto.
Why do you confirm that? Of course he was, otherwise he wouldn’t have done such an experiment.

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There has been mentioned about our bodies ability to recognize and hence digest say a cow molecule of milk.  But I'd argue that fermenting or having the milk go through a lengthy cheese culturing process breaks it down and makes it more digestible on many levels.
It’s not only a problem of digestion, but mainly of metabolism downstream of digestion. If we are not well adapted to milks of other animals species, then making these milks more digestible is even more worrying. This has been repeatedly pointed out by GCB, both in his seminars and in his writings.

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Some of the longest lived and healthiest peoples were those in the Lowenthal valley of Switzerland (spelling). 
Lötchenthal. I don’t know if they lived that long (I thought the longest lifespan was generally attributed to the Hunzas), but anyway they would probably have lived even longer if they had better foods and didn’t consume any dairy.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:03:58 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 05:02:03 am »
Incidentally, I rather admire GCB for being anti-raw dairy. As a  guru, he could easily have stated that raw dairy was a wonderful food so as to gain more converts to his diet. After all, most people find it much quicker to get used to the taste of  raw dairy than the taste of  fresh, raw meats.

Yes, and I guess that's why AV reintroduced milk, dairy, juices and recipes after having copied GCB on most points.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 09:17:11 am »
Jacob, congrats on publishing your ebook and I hope folks will pay for it if they enjoy it and can afford to. Congrats also on your health succes. I used to get the eyelid mucus and "sand" thing and cold-like symptoms too on SAD, and the evolutionary logic of Paleo also made sense to me. I only read a bit of the ebook sample, but it was interesting to see someone else report that, thanks.

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Cheese is preferred ( have you ever seen a Frenchman go into a restaurant and order a glass of milk) and or cultures like the Caucus peoples or the Masai who mix it with blood and allow it to ferment.  There has been mentioned about our bodies ability to recognize and hence digest say a cow molecule of milk.  But I'd argue that fermenting or having the milk go through a lengthy cheese culturing process breaks it down and makes it more digestible on many levels.
Yes, Van, that has been my experience as well, and as I mentioned about the Masai, despite many of them being lactose intolerant, they have been tolerating milk for thousands of years by fermenting it, and many of them are reportedly in better health than many of us in this forum, given the reports I've seen here. As has been indicated many times by many people in this forum on many topics, the most extremely negative reports of some are not the experience of everyone.

Yes, and I guess that's why AV reintroduced milk, dairy, juices and recipes after having copied GCB on most points.
Unless you think Aajonus was lying, which can't be definitively proven one way or another, then you're guess was wrong. You've read this forum long enough that you should know by now that Aajonus and many of his fans claimed that raw milk improved their health. My own experience comes closer to GCB's recommendations than Aajonus', and I don't buy many of Aajonus' claims, but even I doubt that Aajonus would have continued consuming large amounts of raw milk for the rest of his life if he was only doing it to gain more converts to his diet. Do you really believe that?

After all, while raw milk is more popular than raw meat, it's hardly the most popular food one could promote. If AV had truly been guided primarily by popularity, he would have promoted the most popular foods, like crispy fried bacon, unlimited sweet fruits, pizza, sub sandwiches, soda pop, chips, pastries, cookies, cakes, candies, etc. Heck, some gurus have even done that (see Matt Stone's past High Everything Diet and his similar, though somewhat more reasonable RRARF! diet--I don't know what he's promoting now, but it's probably more indulgent than Aajonus' approach). Instead, AV excluded or limited those foods in his recommended diet.

...(I thought the longest lifespan was generally attributed to the Hunzas), but anyway they would probably have lived even longer if they had better foods and didn’t consume any dairy.
Don't the Hunza traditionally consume dairy products? I recall reading that in the past.

Of course, you could choose not to believe Aajonus or Elizabeth Marshall Thomas or the Masai and other long-time dairy eating peoples, or the many people who have reported in this forum and others that they didn't have catastrophic experiences with dairy, and instead choose to believe Iguana and GCB that dairy will prove very harmful for all some day. Unfortunately, neither GCB's nor Aajonus' work has been independently verified by objective parties. Different people report different experiences and make different claims. It has been debated endlessly and will never be resolved. So once again we're left to experiment for ourselves and find out what works for us. To try to bring it back on topic, this is why no single book is going to be accepted by all raw Paleo/Primal/ancestral dieters. I doubt that any two of us agree on everything.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 09:43:18 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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