Author Topic: RPD & Lifestyle ebook  (Read 15070 times)

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Offline van

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2013, 10:15:19 am »

AFAIK, all the experimentations of people on steady, 100% raw instinctive paleo nutrition have been negative or even catastrophic. On of the 4 first guys to practice this nutrition (he started around 1965, assisting his friends GCB and wife Nicole to work it out) told me “the worst raw diet proved to be “instincto” with milk”.



Ok: as you say, the possibility is not excluded  that some paleo hunter-gatherers occasionally consumed a little bit of milk. Probably about the same rare occurrence as they sometimes may have eaten some food grilled on hot lava after a volcanic eruption or wildfire.

I would like the quote from Wikipedia corroborated by another source before I could totally trust it. It has no reference but nevertheless lacks the usual mention “citation needed”. Anyway, these people used to cook food and had sophisticated hunting weapons and tools.
Why do you confirm that? Of course he was, otherwise he wouldn’t have done such an experiment.
     that's like trusting the results of an  efficacy test by EJ Lilly  of herbs vs. their drugs.    Or to bring it closer to home, I'd have the same doubts if you did a milk test or some sort (for your mind is already made up)  It is a well known fact that researchers are still prone to observe what they expect to see.  And in the case of food testing on one's self, our mind can manifest powerful reactions.  Most have experienced having said to themselves, 'I am going to be so sick' after eating something they wished they hadn't. 
It’s not only a problem of digestion, but mainly of metabolism downstream of digestion. If we are not well adapted to milks of other animals species, then making these milks more digestible is even more worrying. This has been repeatedly pointed out by GCB, both in his seminars and in his writings.
Lötchenthal. I don’t know if they lived that long (I thought the longest lifespan was generally attributed to the Hunzas), but anyway they would probably have lived even longer if they had better foods and didn’t consume any dairy.


Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2013, 11:02:06 am »
The African honey guide bird has led humans to honey for many thousands of years and has even developed a special call just for human beings, and humans developed a call for the bird, making it almost child's play to find the honey.


Awesome. 

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2013, 05:18:12 pm »
Jacob, congrats on publishing your ebook and I hope folks will pay for it if they enjoy it and can afford to. Congrats also on your health succes. I used to get the eyelid mucus and "sand" thing and cold-like symptoms too on SAD, and the evolutionary logic of Paleo also made sense to me. I only read a bit of the ebook sample, but it was interesting to see someone else report that, thanks.

Thanks Phil.
That eye mucus and sand thing is very unpleasant, isn't it? I'm glad you also do not suffer from it anymore. When I suffered from it I had to lick my finger, often several times, in the morning when I woke up, and use the moisture on the finger to un-dry the dried mucus that had basically glued my eyes shut during the night, so that I could open my eyes.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2013, 06:04:16 pm »
My own experience comes closer to GCB's recommendations than Aajonus', and I don't buy many of Aajonus' claims, but even I doubt that Aajonus would have continued consuming large amounts of raw milk for the rest of his life if he was only doing it to gain more converts to his diet. Do you really believe that?
I just guess, I don’t know and don’t really care.

We don’t know, but it’s quite probable that some people have at least a partial adaptation to animal milk. Since we don’t know, the precautionary principle recommends to avoid milks of other species, each animal species having its own very specific milk which purpose is to feed babies and infants - under 4 years old in the case of humans.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2013, 06:46:27 pm »

Yes, Van, that has been my experience as well, and as I mentioned about the Masai, despite many of them being lactose intolerant, they have been tolerating milk for thousands of years by fermenting it, and many of them are reportedly in better health than many of us in this forum, given the reports I've seen here. As has been indicated many times by many people in this forum on many topics, the most extremely negative reports of some are not the experience of everyone.
Unless you think Aajonus was lying, which can't be definitively proven one way or another, then you're guess was wrong. You've read this forum long enough that you should know by now that Aajonus and many of his fans claimed that raw milk improved their health. My own experience comes closer to GCB's recommendations than Aajonus', and I don't buy many of Aajonus' claims, but even I doubt that Aajonus would have continued consuming large amounts of raw milk for the rest of his life if he was only doing it to gain more converts to his diet. Do you really believe that?
There is no question that AV deliberately and cynically  introduced raw dairy in order to gain more converts. He also introduced tons of raw honey, raw coconut oil/cream as these were more tasty for RVAF diet newbies. He even introduced raw sweeteners for his raw veggie juices which, otherwise, would have tasted disgusting. The claim that he would have chosen a cooked  junk food diet to promote if he wanted more converts is ridiculous since AV was way too "far out" to be able to promote a more mainstream diet.

The absurd claims by Aajonus and his fanatics re raw milk helping them is easily discounted by the plentiful evidence of endless numbers of people suffering from the ill effects of raw dairy. You see this among some of AV`s more fanatical followers who dismiss every nasty side-effect they get from raw dairy as being mere "detox", in accordance with AV`s claims. The fact that these nasty symptoms only occur shortly after consuming raw dairy makes it abundantly clear that such symptoms have nothing to do with detox but are simply signs of allergy towards raw dairy or some similiar issue.

And, please, PP, none of this Noble Savage bullshit  about the Maasai etc. We all know that these tribes led miserable, short  lives. The WAPF`s pathetic excuse, when shown this evidence, is always to pretend that such tribes led full lives of  primal health long ago but that, sadly, their health disappeared as soon as they encountered the white man or as soon as durable  records appeared.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2013, 06:47:52 pm »
it’s quite probable that some people have at least a partial adaptation to animal milk.

This is a very important point. Those people that do seem to be able to digest lactose into adulthood should, if they care about their long-term health, be concerned about the possibility that they cannot properly metabolize galactose; one of the products of lactose digestion. Health problems caused by poor galactose metabolism, such as cataract formation, may only show up decades later: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6804198
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2013, 07:03:56 pm »
Great point, Haai.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2013, 07:25:57 pm »
Iguana and Haai, I agree with you on the precautionary principle, which is why I think it makes sense to try eliminating dairy first, then testing it if one wishes. The most fervent dairy fans would of course disagree with me on that. I appreciate your rational and politely stated concerns about dairy, some of which I share.

Tyler, I didn't reference Weston Price. The Masai reference was from a scientific study (unfortunately only an abstract is available at the link - "Lactose malabsorption among Masai children of East Africa," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925), but I recall reading other scientific research that found the same thing in the past. Price wasn't the only one who reported something about the Masai.

If you think that Profs. Jackson and Latham are WAPF lackeys with some sort of "Noble Savage theory", feel free to present supporting evidence. Otherwise, please stop wasting your and my time with ad hominem and extraordinary claims and assumptions when you can't refute the evidence. Van also mentioned the Masai and Iguana the Hunza and neither referenced a study, yet you didn't mention them, which seems like a rather transparently selective response. And who is the "we" you're apparently assuming that you speak for?

The nice thing about your anti-dairy rants is they make my past negativity and current caveats about dairy look quite reasonable in comparison. You should challenge the people who criticized me for being too anti-dairy (including one who said something to the effect that that my views on dairy and other things were characteristic of this forum after I questioned what seemed like fervent dairy advocacy at the time--in other words, he lumped me in with you :o ;D ) to a grudge match.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 08:19:47 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2013, 08:54:39 pm »
Price mentioned that both the Maasai and the mountain Swiss revered the spring dairy for its healing powers.  He also noted that spring dairy had 50 times the vitamin A content that winter dairy did, from the very same grass.

He also mentioned that the African tribes that consumed dairy would require young women to eat a very specific diet that included spring dairy for several months before getting married and pregnant.  This is in line with the tendency among MANY tribes to require young women trying to get pregnant to eat specific foods for several months beforehand, like specific shellfish, fish eggs, organs, etc.. These were generally the very same foods recommended for young children to eat, in order to build healthy bodies.

There's definitely a case to be made for grassfed spring dairy, especially from grass grown on very rich soil, if you are not allergic. 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2013, 09:58:54 pm »
Iguana and Haai, I agree with you on the precautionary principle, which is why I think it makes sense to try eliminating dairy first, then testing it if one wishes. The most fervent dairy fans would of course disagree with me on that. I appreciate your rational and politely stated concerns about dairy, some of which I share.

Tyler, I didn't reference Weston Price. The Masai reference was from a scientific study (unfortunately only an abstract is available at the link - "Lactose malabsorption among Masai children of East Africa," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925), but I recall reading other scientific research that found the same thing in the past. Price wasn't the only one who reported something about the Masai.

If you think that Profs. Jackson and Latham are WAPF lackeys with some sort of "Noble Savage theory", feel free to present supporting evidence. Otherwise, please stop wasting your and my time with ad hominem and extraordinary claims and assumptions when you can't refute the evidence. Van also mentioned the Masai and Iguana the Hunza and neither referenced a study, yet you didn't mention them, which seems like a rather transparently selective response. And who is the "we" you're apparently assuming that you speak for?

The nice thing about your anti-dairy rants is they make my past negativity and current caveats about dairy look quite reasonable in comparison. You should challenge the people who criticized me for being too anti-dairy (including one who said something to the effect that that my views on dairy and other things were characteristic of this forum after I questioned what seemed like fervent dairy advocacy at the time--in other words, he lumped me in with you :o ;D ) to a grudge match.  ;D
There are too many scientific references pointing to low Massai longevity plus health problems. I have already mentioned those in the past endless times. Why not at least check those past posts of mine, rather than pretending that I had never made them?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline van

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2013, 11:23:03 pm »
I think why the raw milk/Aujonus topic keeps being disputed is that those who do well on it (and I Was one of those that did well) is that when you've tried many different diets and your energy is failing, raw milk, for some, can at least for a while turn that ship around.  And it feels like a godsend.  One that you're likely going to 'defend' quite strongly.   Pretty sure I've mentioned this before.

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2013, 11:39:00 pm »
Yes, short term and long term effects can be quite different. And when you come out of a mostly-cooked-standard-modern-diet, any raw food, whatever it is, is better and will make people feel great.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2013, 04:31:46 am »
Of course, you could choose not to believe Aajonus or Elizabeth Marshall Thomas or the Masai and other long-time dairy eating peoples, or the many people who have reported in this forum and others that they didn't have catastrophic experiences with dairy, and instead choose to believe Iguana and GCB that dairy will prove very harmful for all some day

Actually we don’t say that it will necessarily prove harmful for everyone. Several dairy consumers will certainly be sick or die from other causes than dairy consumption or be lucky enough to remain healthy their whole life till an advanced age. And I think the report you quoted from Elizabeth Marshall Thomas is most likely truthful. But it was probably a rare event, even rarer as you go back in time.

Other point: I just purchased your book, Haai, and already noticed that you thank GS and TD at the end. Great!  :)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Haai

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2013, 05:00:26 am »
Other point: I just purchased your book, Haai, and already noticed that you thank GS and TD at the end. Great!  :)

Yes. Without GS's eczema cure manual I may never have discovered the Raw Paleo Diet and would likely be suffering very badly today. I actually discovered the primal diet before discovering GS's eczema cure manual and the RPD. But I was like, "there's no way I'm trying that!" The fact that GS also suffered from eczema and that he cured it by following the RPD was what gave me that extra incentive/courage I needed to begin the RPD. So thanks GS!
And thanks Tyler for having the idea of creating this forum, and for your devotion to it since its creation!
I hope you enjoy(ed) the read Iguana.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2013, 08:23:17 am »
I can testify for Raw milks enigmatic short term benefits, followed by long term issues.

I have tried it on a few occasions, and I will do fine with it, for about three days.

Then my gut gets full of mucus and my digestion is all fouled up. Though I will still feel good and have good energy and appetite, until after the first week. By week two I lose my appetite, start to feel bad, and give up the experiment.

I will still occasionally lap up what I can from a lactating sheep carcass, without any issue. My body can handle it in single doses , but if it is used day after day dairy will invariably cause the build up of gut mucus along with other negative effects.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:41:54 am by sabertooth »
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2013, 08:56:09 am »
Fascinating Derek, I'm curious how you assess your apatite? I suppose bone density tests might work...

All kidding aside, I assume you mean appetite, which is spelled subtly differently but means something else entirely. Apatite is a mineral, and hydroxyapetite is one of the major components of bone and tooth enamel.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2013, 09:50:48 am »
I will still occasionally lap up what I can from a lactating sheep carcass, without any issue.
Fascinating indeed. Thanks for the report from the "field" (pun intended ;) ), Derek. So it is true that it's possible to get milk from a carcass. That's more evidence confirming the plausibility of Haai's hypothesis "that small quantities of raw milk may have been consumed in the Palaeolithic Era from the udders of lactating female mammals or the stomachs of their young, when these animals were preyed upon," and further calls into question Bruno Comby's dodgy claim that Stone Agers "probably NEVER had access to another species' milk."

Of course, neither Haai nor anyone else has argued that the quantities were large and frequent. Haai even specified "small quantities," so it looks like he was right from the start, not "quite wrong," like Tyler claimed.

From what I've seen in some of the early reactions to Haai's hypothesis, and the Comby quote and Paleo and vegan writings and forums, and elsewhere, the mere possibility of any Stone Age consumption of milk beyond a tiny amount is not widely reported or known, especially the bit about milk from the "stomachs of young mammals" (what a handy dandy kefir/kumis/airag bag that would make), and thus Haai's ebook is more informative on this than most. Kudos to Haai for having the courage to include that bit of "Paleo" heresy. -d

Here are a couple examples of a common view on dairy in Paleo and LC circles that the evidence increasingly suggests goes too far:
Quote
"Stone age diets clearly were characterized by extremely high protein intakes by modern standards, yet bone robusticity and density (determined from fossil paleolithic humans) were greater than or equal to that of most modern humans despite the total absence of dairy products in stone age diets." - Prof. Loren Cordain

"In Paleolithic times and before man didn't drink milk beyond infancy." - Dr. Michael Eades, http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/421
The stomachs mention brings to mind vague recollection of seeing a video documentary in which African Bushmen hunters saved a milk-filled young animal's stomach for later, to allow the milk to ferment further. Thanks for triggering that recollection, Haai. I don't have a link to it and don't recall the name of the documentary, unfortunately.

It looks like sufficient evidence has accumulated to make it prudent to keep Bruno's misleading report out of the newbies section and instead put Haai's and Derek's there (including the caveats, of course), if we are honest and dedicated to sharing facts rather than propaganda. This will be a good test of this forum's commitment to truth.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 10:34:27 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2013, 02:52:00 am »
I think Bruno Comby was truthfully reporting his experience. But his conclusions are probably too categorical: it doesn't mean that we could never get any milk at all in similar but slightly different conditions, as has been discussed.

I suggest we keep it there in “Important Info for Newbies” and post the relevant discussion below, leaving the door open to question his conclusions  and to show that a tiny amount of milk is possibly available sometimes in the wild, but quite rarely.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline sabertooth

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2013, 05:06:04 am »
Its plausible to view milk as similar to honey. Our ancestors would occasionally have access to a honey comb, but it was never a staple food.

I would bet that when ice age hunters landed a large and lactating mammoth, that they would have most definitely consumed the milk seeping from the mammary tissue.  Perhaps some groups of large game hunters would have had regular, although limited access to milk, from fresh kills.

Its also possible they developed a taste for milk which after the mega-fauna big game animals began to die out, lead some of our ingenious and hungry ancestors to capture live Forrest fauna to take milk from.

This could have given rise to the herdsman. The post paleolithic groups of people who raised their own meat, and would utilize the milk from the animals to supplement their diets, during those days of near starvation.

It would be interesting to know the truth behind the transition from hunters, to herdsman and dairy farmers. There must of been a transitory peiod between the huntsman and the emergence of the milkman.

Even in the primeval herdsman, raw milk was never a main staple. Those peoples who do consume large amounts of milk, would ferment it to make it more digestible. Through bacterial culturing and generation of adaptions some peoples have managed to develop tolerance, and increased ability to digest raw milk, but that doesn't prove that Raw milk is an ideal food.

Even the Swiss whom Weston price used as an example of a healthy group of people, ate lots of cheese. The Mongolians fermented horse milk. Other cultures made, kefer, cottage cheese, yogurt, and countless other kinds of rotten milk. This was necessary to facilitate the gut Flora necessary for humans to adequately digest raw milk from other species of animal.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 05:22:11 am by sabertooth »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2013, 03:34:07 am »
Its plausible to view milk as similar to honey. Our ancestors would occasionally have access to a honey comb, but it was never a staple food.
Interestingly, hunter-gatherers seem to regard it as more of a healthy substantial food to make hunters/warriors strong, rather than a dessert for children. In other words, they don't limit themselves to tiny amounts like we moderners do. By all accounts, they gorge on it when it's available (which I'm not advocating), which used to be for longer stretches than today, as there used to be more bee species, more forests and wildflower groves, and thus more honey-producing wild hives in the ancient past, and different wild bees reportedly specialize in different plants and thus produce honey at somewhat different times, expanding the season, not to mention the wild tree saps that were also available. It's still early in my process of learning about honey, though, so maybe I'll find something to contradict this some day, but so far not.

Quote
I would bet that when ice age hunters landed a large and lactating mammoth, that they would have most definitely consumed the milk seeping from the mammary tissue.  Perhaps some groups of large game hunters would have had regular, although limited access to milk, from fresh kills.
That's an interesting point about the megafauna. Trying to make assessments without considering extinct megafauna doesn't make sense. Thanks for pointing that out. It could put some of the info I learned about Neanderthals from a Clive Gamble book into a possibly new perspective:

Quote
"Tooth eruption suggests that the bison were killed [by Neanderthals in Europe] at the end of summer and into the autumn. Eighty per cent of the individuals were adult females and calves, Adult males made up the remainder of the kill. The age profile is described as catastrophic with a high ratio of young individuals."

Clive Gamble The Palaeolithic Societies of Europe, 1999, p. 342

Quote
It would be interesting to know the truth behind the transition from hunters, to herdsman and dairy farmers. There must of been a transitory peiod between the huntsman and the emergence of the milkman.
Indeed it would, and there seems to be scant info or interest on this. There likely was indeed a transition period of some sort, rather than a sudden, dramatic shift to pastoralism.

Quote
Those peoples who do consume large amounts of milk, would ferment it to make it more digestible.
Yes, and this makes Haai's point about fermented milk in the bellies of young kills also quite intriguing.

Thanks again for your and Haai's and Van's posts on this topic, as they are quite rarely open-minded and interesting in the Paleosphere, with the usual stuff here and elsewhere being knee-jerk total condemnations of (and assumptions about zero or near-zero intakes without actually digging into it to find out, and complete lack of interest in) dairy of any sort in any era, from which we learn little or nothing. I haven't found any of your comments to be too dogmatically pro-dairy either. You've shown a healthy balance of skepticism.

BTW, I guess I deserve having to deal with some of the most extreme anti-dairy views, as I came to this forum in part because of the critical view on dairy that was stated in one of its articles (I had gotten tired of the posts of dairy advocates with chips on their shoulder, often fans of WAP, at another Paleo forum). So it seemed like it would be hospitable to dairy avoiders like I was at the time. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for. :)

This dairy topic got me intrigued about dairy again, so I tried a product I hadn't tried before--buttermilk from the jersey cows of a local family farm (the only buttermilk I had tried before was from Hood, many years ago). Even though it was pasteurized, the negative effects it had were surprisingly mild; barely perceptible. It had less of a negative effect than the pasteurized kefir I've tried, including from goats. I have no idea why. It makes me curious to try local raw milk.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 03:54:58 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Barefoot Instincto

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2013, 07:47:26 am »
What are the thoughts on kefir consumption, about 2 liters a month?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2013, 05:06:57 am »
Whatever works for you, Barefoot Instincto.

The stomachs mention brings to mind vague recollection of seeing a video documentary in which African Bushmen hunters saved a milk-filled young animal's stomach for later, to allow the milk to ferment further. Thanks for triggering that recollection, Haai. I don't have a link to it and don't recall the name of the documentary, unfortunately.
Oh silly, forgetful me, young animal kill stomachs as a source of fermented milk was also mentioned in the Comanche quote I included above and had found about 4 years ago, but then forgot about. Here it is again:
Quote
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche: "The Comanches sometimes ate raw meat, especially raw liver flavored with gall. They also drank the milk from the slashed udders of buffalo, deer, and elk. Among their delicacies was the curdled milk from the stomachs of suckling buffalo calves, and they also enjoyed buffalo tripe, or stomachs."
I would like the quote from Wikipedia corroborated by another source before I could totally trust it.
Your wish is my command, Iguana. :D I found confirming sources. According to Noah Smithwick, a pioneer who lived with the Comanches, the Comanches drank "curdled milk taken from the stomachs of suckling fawns and buffalo calves, which they esteemed a rare delicacy." Comanche 1800-74 by Douglas V. Meed, p. 7. This was also confirmed in Empire of the Summer Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History, by S. C. Gwynne.
 
And there's this about the slashed udder method:
 
"A Comanche would cut into the udder of an animal and, placing his mouth on the gash, suck the warm mixture of milk and blood with the greatest of pleasure. The curdled milk from the stomach of a suckling fawn or calf was a delicacy indeed."
The Comanches: Lords of the South Plains, books.google.com/books?isbn=0806120401, by Ernest Wallace, 1986
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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