Author Topic: Larger livers and RZC diet  (Read 17524 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Larger livers and RZC diet
« on: February 03, 2014, 02:30:26 am »
There is a current claim that the Inuit are able to do a 100% animal food diet because they all have enlarged livers. Can any successful RZCer confirm that they have large livers? I am just wondering if the reason I failed on RZC was  simply because I had too small a liver.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 02:39:15 am »
Good question. They presumably developed their large livers over thousands of years. I don't think it makes sense to try to do that within a single lifetime.

ZC is even more dangerous than I realized. If anything, I would have been even harsher about it in the past if I knew what I know now.

The larger Inuit livers provide them with more glycogen, which I'll bet kept them from running out of glycogen during the night if they were well fed, even though they were often not getting much carbs. Doesn't make sense to try to do what they did with a small liver.

Plus, even Eskimos didn't pass up Eskimo potatoes and probably also ate the fermented stomach contents of animals, at least a little bit. And who knows how important their high meats/fish/birds were, which were not prepared the way Aajonus claimed, as Eric pointed out.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 04:33:22 am »
I am not so worried. There do seem to be a number of people who do well on RZC here. I am just wondering what makes them successful on it. I used to think that it was their bodies'  extreme reaction to carbs that somehow made them more able to live off a protein/fat diet.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 06:45:53 am »
Don't know; maybe plenty of organ intake, like Lex, helps. ZC can seem successful in the shorter term, and then later suddenly go seriously wrong, especially with cooked ZC, from what I've seen. It may take years for the problems to become obvious. So short-term experiments with it probably don't tell much.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 07:11:51 am »
Well, eating lots of different raw organ-meats did not help me when I tried RZC.

What are you referring to re cooked ZC going wrong? Do you mean, Charles and his followers are all suddenly suffering from health problems?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 09:20:37 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 07:40:28 am »
Well they have been reporting problems for years, with many quitting it, not so much Charles the last I saw.

I have seen reports recently around the Internet of people doing cooked very low carb, not even necessarily zero carb, developing many minor and some even serious health problems, from cold fingers and toes to Raynaud's, Hashimoto's and other autoimmune illnesses.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 07:53:07 am »
Who is 'Charles'?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 09:29:39 am »
Charles is a dude who has a ZC blog/forum who unfortunately was influenced by the eccentric King of Acid and soundman for the Grateful Dead who went by the name Bear Stanley and believed that people should eat only meat. He later developed throat cancer and attributed it to eating broccoli in his youth (probably partially tongue in cheek). Not long ago Bear died in a car crash, IIRC. Unfortunately several hundred people were influenced by the Bear and Charles. I met Charles once and he came across as surprisingly reasonable and friendly, but he unfortunately feels certain that ZC is the way to go and dismisses all evidence to the contrary, no matter how many of his followers report negative results (when they do they get banned from his forum).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 11:25:19 am »

ZC is even more dangerous than I realized. If anything, I would have been even harsher about it in the past if I knew what I know now.


Elaborate please :)

Offline van

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2014, 03:12:24 pm »
Elaborate please :)
  Yes, please elaborate, for you've made some pretty strong statements, without a lot of supportive info.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 09:24:10 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 08:26:22 pm »
I'm not looking to debate people, only warn. Those who are experiencing symptoms sometimes called "low carb flu" will I hope be interested. See more here:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 11:07:34 pm »
You're just sending us in circles,, or repeating yourself.  Do you have any real sources of those who have failed,, and with details?

Offline 24isours

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 03:02:26 am »
I am not so worried. There do seem to be a number of people who do well on RZC here. I am just wondering what makes them successful on it. I used to think that it was their bodies'  extreme reaction to carbs that somehow made them more able to live off a protein/fat diet.

I don't know how you went about a RZC diet but what seems to work for me is being sure to get a minimum of 75-80% of calories from fat and at least 15-20% from protein. Since I go to the gym 6 days a week, 20% of my calories from protein is more ideal. I'm also sure to include plenty of organ meat, water, some sea salt, vitamin d (whether from the sun or a cod liver oil supplement if I can't get out), and iodine.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 04:35:09 am by TylerDurden »
3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 04:35:42 am »
I don't know how you went about a RZC diet but what seems to work for me is being sure to get a minimum of 75-80% of calories from fat and at least 15-20% from protein. Since I go to the gym 6 days a week, 20% of my calories from protein is more ideal. I'm also sure to include plenty of organ meat, water, some sea salt, vitamin d (whether from the sun or a cod liver oil supplement if I can't get out), and iodine.
That sort of thing did not work for me at all.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 09:22:45 am »
You're just sending us in circles,, or repeating yourself.  Do you have any real sources of those who have failed,, and with details?
Spanish Caravan is a physician who reported that VLC Paleo patients are suffering from serious autoimmune illnesses. For more info, please see Spanish Caravan's blog comments that I linked to in the other thread.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Inger

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2014, 07:00:35 pm »
Low carb flu = dehydration.....

I know CW is totally against a ZC diet - so it will not be hard to find studies that support its dangers (you should look closer at the studies tho and you will soon realize their are all flawed and no way to be used to show a good quality RAF diet is dangerous) but that does not concern me at all. CW is full of crap anyways.

In Sweden the government have now accepted the high fat low carb diet to be a healthy option to reverse illness. Believe it or not! It is the first country in the world that does this. The HFLC diet is now very popular in Sweden. So many people have gotten huge benefits from it. And it is not even raw. Imagine. They just cannot deny the benefits diabetics and overweight people etc. have gotten on this diet.

I surely believe high carbs especially fructose is not good for our health and longevity at all. Can we feel good from it short term? Of course. But better go and check your labs and teeth... they will give you a hint where you are going.

I very much believe wild carbs in season are great for us tho. But they are so different from the cultivated ones!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 07:06:54 pm by Inger »

Offline Inger

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2014, 07:13:37 pm »
Peter at Hyperlid (Blog) has a lot of great stuff about this issue if anyone is interested. He also shows how flawed many studies regarding ketose / high fat diets are and why.
He is a pretty bright guy me thinks. A vet. And has done his research. He and his wife eats a keto diet since many years too feeling great.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.fi/

Offline Iguana

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2014, 08:01:13 pm »
CW is full of crap anyways.

Who / what is CW ?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline 24isours

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 09:43:18 pm »
That sort of thing did not work for me at all.

Maybe you just didn't give your body enough time to adapt?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 09:49:46 pm »
Maybe you just didn't give your body enough time to adapt?
My body was falling apart at the time, I had gotten severely loosened teeth which I had only had pre-RPD diet, I was also becoming ravenously hungry and thirsty all the time which never got sated, and  I was so tired I could barely walk. After 5-6 weeks of going RZC I was  simply unable to carry on with it.

Of course, others have done rather well on RZC. I was just wondering if there was one particular characteristic that meant that only those who had it were able to do RZC.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Inger

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 10:05:38 pm »

Offline Inger

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 10:16:54 pm »
Tyler... you say you got thirsty. Did you had more water then? How much did you have / day, do you remember? What kind of water, tap water or spring/other high quality water?
How much protein did you eat and how much fat... about.

How was your diet looking previous to your raw ZC experiment. Your lifestyle? Did you work a lot on the computer... spending much time indoors and going late to bed?

(I am wondering about EMF exposure because it is dehydrating and would make the transition worse)

Sorry if I am curious but I really am... ;)

Offline 24isours

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 10:38:15 pm »
My body was falling apart at the time, I had gotten severely loosened teeth which I had only had pre-RPD diet, I was also becoming ravenously hungry and thirsty all the time which never got sated, and  I was so tired I could barely walk. After 5-6 weeks of going RZC I was  simply unable to carry on with it.

Of course, others have done rather well on RZC. I was just wondering if there was one particular characteristic that meant that only those who had it were able to do RZC.

Sounds like a thyroid/hormonal imbalance. Research indicates lower carb diets decrease T3(thyroid) levels. I'd place a bet that your iodine levels were low and your thyroid was struggling to keep up with production of hormones because of the sudden drop in carbohydrates. Were you eating any type of iodine rich foods during your RZC diet? Were you getting enough Vitamin D? I think these are crucial to success. If you ever decide to go RZC again, I would suggest doing some research on what I had mentioned.
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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 10:46:22 pm »
I think our brain needs Iodine to be able to use ketones well so an Iodine deficient person would have issues with a ketotic diet.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2014, 10:52:49 pm »
I think our brain needs Iodine to be able to use ketones well so an Iodine deficient person would have issues with a ketotic diet.

This is a super interesting insight.

How about salt intake?
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