Author Topic: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster  (Read 75970 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #225 on: March 19, 2014, 09:39:05 am »
Quote
"Dreaming is usually a sign of a good redox potential. A strong redox potential means you membranes have a lot of stored charge in them."

http://jackkruse.com/redox-rx
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #226 on: April 13, 2014, 09:00:34 pm »
Here's another incentive to not do chronic ZC:
Quote
As Grilling Season Arrives, Beef Prices On the Rise [USA]
April 13, 2014 By David Williams
http://argyllfreepress.com/2014/04/13/as-grilling-season-arrives-beef-prices-on-the-rise/

Just in time for this year’s grilling season, beef prices have risen to their highest point in 27 years. This has taken consumer and restaurants by surprise with relief likely not to happen anytime in the near future.

As cattle herds dwindle and the export demand increases from countries such as Japan and China, the average cost of retail fresh beef has climbed to $5.28 per pound as of February. That price was nearly 25 cents higher than in January and the highest the country has seen since 1987.

Everything being produced is consumed, said one analyst and prices likely will remain high for the next few years as producers of cattle start rebuilding their herds amidst questions about whether the Midwest and Southwest will have enough rain to help pastures replenish.

...cattle herds are the smallest in the nation since 1951

Meat and egg prices have indeed been rising in my area.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sorentus

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #227 on: April 14, 2014, 12:22:39 am »
I'm doing zero carb because I believe I have a rare case of critical small bacteria overgrowth, the slightest carb or fiber makes me gassy and have major discomfort and every time I reach ketosis these critter drive me insane, I become so hungry no matter how much I eat and I crave carbs, carbs and more carb and then its a vicious cycle, I binge on it , even in small amount and then I feel like complete shit for days until I fail and eat carbs when I reach ketosis again. last night I had peanut butter since I didn't have it in 7 months, I couldn't sleep over how bad I wanted it. Now I'm likely sick again, I'l try and go all out zero carb.

I took smoked marijuana, i drank coffee for years and I had to give up all my favorite foods, habits without exception since becoming ill, but this hunger feeling is like a withdrawal that CANNOT go away. I'm sure all these bacterias are playing with my brain hormones.

I'm giving one more month with the hookworms and if I see no release, I'm going all out killing all these ****ers. Natural antibiotics and if it fail I'm, taking real ones. These bastard are a though case, I mean, I'm starving them of their sugar so surely they'll do everything to survive.

Offline edmon171

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #228 on: April 14, 2014, 05:17:33 am »
I have been chronic ZC for years and mostly chronic VLC for a decade before that. I have become metabolically resistant to weight loss from gaining and losing the same 100lb over and over. If I start eating starch or sugar I have somehow developed the ability to gain weight faster than I can eat it, nevermind lose it. Two weeks of carbs can set me back 3 months of weight loss on strict ZC. Also, I get itchy, gassy, smelly, depressed, mood swings, asthma, intense hunger and cravings for the worst poison junk food, skin problems, I sleep an extra 4 hours and still feel like shit when I drag myself out of bed, catch frequent colds, there is more but I've made my point. I'm like an addict, if I let it go on long enough you will find me in a car littered with chocolate wrappers and fast food bags maxing out my last credit card at the mcdonalds drive thru. I say no thank you to all of that, I will take ketosis for life whatever the alleged consequences. I'm almost 100% sure the people who had problems were making one of the big three mistakes: cheating too frequently to fully adapt to burning fatty acids in the body directly and reserving most ketones for the brain, eating such a large amount of protein that it converts to glucose and resets adaptation, or not drastically increasing the fat intake for normal weight people.

About the resistant starch and gut bacteria, If I am eating raw meat then my gut will be populated with the right bacteria for what I am eating. Why do I need to feed starch to the the starch eating bacteria? This is why I stopped taking probiotics. One day I just realized, "wtf am I doing? These bacteria are for digesting lactose and fermenting plant cellulose. I don't have any of that in my diet. The probiotics must be just dieing and getting eaten by the other bacteria, what a waste of money."
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 05:56:38 am by edmon171 »
My basic health philosophy:

1. If it is advertized on TV, don't touch it.
2. If it is recommended in the news, do the opposite.
3. If it makes most people afraid, it might be good for you.

Offline colorles

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #229 on: May 11, 2014, 09:54:21 pm »
hello, my name is colorles. as you can see i'm a newly joined member, although i have been reading some of the threads on this site well since sometime last year. and having read through this thread has finally motivated me to join the place. for starters though i have one question: this thread seems to have transitioned through a few different subtopics, and lastly seems to be focused on gut bacteria. and thus my question is, isn't the stomach of a functional carnivore supposed to be sterile, due to the potency of the stomach acid? isn't it the stomach(s) of functional herbivores that need all the bacteria to help break down hard to digest plant matter?


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #230 on: May 11, 2014, 10:18:02 pm »
Welcome Colorles. Carnivore stomachs are not sterile and most of their GI tract bacteria is in the intestines, rather than the stomach.

Humans are not carnivores and we also have most of the GI bacteria in the intestines. When people talk about "gut bacteria" for humans they generally refer mainly to the bacteria in the colon and cecum.

Humans do not have sterile GI tracts even before birth. The sterile fetus notion turned out to be a horribly bogus myth that has probably contributed to untold unnecessary suffering:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/gut-bacteria/msg118616/#msg118616

A mountain of evidence has been accumulating that prebiotics, such as pectin, resistant starch, oligosaccharides, inulin, gums, and mucins, are crucially important over the longer term to human health. For example:

Pectin - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100119213138.htm

Resistant starch -
Quote
If you want to convince me resistant starch lowers blood sugar, show me the studies where it’s added to the diet, not used to replace white flour.

Oops.

Turns out those studies exist and have been around for decades. ...

despite being labeled as “starch,” resistant starch doesn’t turn to glucose in your body.  It resists digestion (thus the term) until it reaches your colon, where it feeds your gut bacteria – and that’s where the benefits kick in.  The good gut bacteria digest the resistant starch and release butyrate, a short-chain fatty acid, as a result.  Yup, eating a “starch” produces good fats in your colon.

And although the exact biological mechanism isn’t known (at least according to the research I’ve read), something about the process increases insulin sensitivity and leads to lower blood sugar, both before and after meals.  Let’s see … glucose control, insulin control, gut health … isn’t that what drew most of us to a low-carb paleo diet in the first place?

- Tom Naughton, the "Fathead" low carb blogger and promoter of skeptical scientific thinking
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2014/04/14/revisiting-resistant-starch-part-one/
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/60/4/544.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8695600
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v95/n4/abs/ajg2000259a.html
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-06282005-175436/unrestricted/ALDfinal.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/276.full
http://images.abbottnutrition.com/ANHI/MEDIA/Second%20Meal%20Effect%20Review%20and%20Citation%20Table.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/3/651.full
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pone.0015046

Oligosaccharides - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/271641.php

Inulin - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24724475

Tree gums - http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Gum-arabic-shows-prebiotic-potential-in-humans-Study

Mucins - http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html

And on and on...

The various subtopics in this thread all relate to the broader topic of the Old Friends Hypothesis and the importance of microorganisms to human health. One of the biggest problems with VLC/ZC diets has been that most of them have largely ignored or even dismissed this important aspect of human health.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 11:22:46 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline colorles

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #231 on: May 11, 2014, 11:56:21 pm »
than you PaleoPhil for the response, i will read all of those links in due time. the only thing i will say at the moment about the argument of whether humans are carnivores or not, is that that depends on just what definition of "carnivore" we are using (also what comes into play is the regional adaptations of the various races of humanity). you know, because most functional carnivores will still eat plant matter like wild berries for instance, if they come across it in the wild (which of course is relatively rare, which is why it is such a treat). obligate carnivores of course, will not (they do not even have the taste buds to register such things). so technically given that most functional carnivores will eat plant matter from time to time, does that make them omnivores? well, technically. but still functional, hunting carnivores that attain most of their satiation from killed prey. compare that to true omnivores like bears or pigs, which can healthy sustain themselves on mostly carbs

humans, simply put cannot healthy sustain themselves on mostly carbs. simply cant, it causes too much damage to the arteries over time through lesions and plaque build up (the true cause of heart disease and so many ailments). and having read your posts before, i know very well you are not saying to completely disregard animal foods, so of course i am not putting those words into your mouth. i'm just saying that if you examine the digestive track of a human and compare it to a similar pack hunting creature like a wolf, the similarities are obvious. the traditional tribal lifestlye of humans compared to the packs of wolves...the similarities are obvious. both species even have similar eye expressions, which is why we can communicate so well without words. its no coincidence, humans and wolves once occupied that same niche ie pack hunting predators. oportunistic pack hunting predators that would not pass up some fresh berries and such, or pretty much anything edible if found, but pack hunting predators that in the wild needed to obtain the vast majority of their food from hunted prey, nonetheless. which is why feel that eating a "wolf diet" is most ideal especially for a northerner like myself

long story short: humans, like wolves are most accurately described as opportunistic pack hunting functional carnivores. which means the staple of the diet is animal foods, supplemented by occasion and/or seasonal plant matter (most likely berries)

but i thank you for your response, and i will look into all this fuss about resistant starch and company

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #232 on: May 12, 2014, 01:07:22 am »
Yes, I am very familiar with the fact that there are facultative as well as obligate carnivores and have written extensively about it in this forum. I even referred to my diet as a "raw facultative carnivore" diet for some years until the evidence (my further inquiries into the scientific research, the reported experiences of others and my own experience) tilted my opinion toward "omnivore" or "adaptivore" being a more accurate descriptor of humans and a better direction for myself.

I didn't argue that facultative carnivores eating plant matter from time to time makes them omnivores, nor that people can sustain themselves healthfully eating "mostly carbs," nor that human and wolf digestive tracts and lifestyles do not have similarities. Thus, when it comes to me, they are irrelevant straw man arguments.

I still eat a relatively low carb diet myself. Anyone who has read my past posts knows that I haven't advocated for a high-carb diet (I have seen reports that some people, including whole tribes, have done well on >50% of calories as carbs, but my own carb tolerance is currently still too low to even bother contemplating such things much at present), and that my past leanings were actually towards facultative carnivory.

Humans are not only predators, but also gatherers. There are similarities between wolves and humans, but we are not wolves, we are humans (primates). I don't feel that a chronic "wolf diet" is ideal for me over the long term (nor a high carb diet, for that matter, at least not at present). You are free too eat what you wish, of course.

The difference between facultative carnivores and omnivores/adaptivores is a complex gray area, not that large, and prone to confusion. It's only a small logical step from one to the other. It may help avoid confusion to instead focus on the topics of getting enough of the right foods to feed one's beneficial microbiota, keep the GI tract (pH balance, tight junctions, butyrate level, etc.) healthy, and avoid problems of excessive chronic VLCing without greatly exceeding one's individual carb tolerance.

"Starch" is a dirty word for many VLCers (and thus the term "resistant starch" was a bit off-putting to me at first), so it may help to think more in other terms like prebiotics, butyrate (a fat), the Old Friends Hypothesis, the microbiome and such, to get around the starch stumbling block.

Good luck with your inquiries and with whatever course you chart, Colorles.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 01:17:40 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online sabertooth

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #233 on: May 12, 2014, 02:14:13 am »

The various subtopics in this thread all relate to the broader topic of the Old Friends Hypothesis and the importance of microorganisms to human health. One of the biggest problems with VLC/ZC diets has been that most of them have largely ignored or even dismissed this important aspect of human health.

I will agree in part,
In order to fully adapt to any diet there must be a baseline level of healthy gut microbes that work in tune with the foodstuff ingested by their host.

The gut ecology of carnivorous animals is vastly different from omnivores, and it can be difficult for people who have lived their entire developmental years inhabited by one micro-biome( of the SAD diet) to fully transition to a diet that favors a completely different (Raw Paleo) based gut ecology.

Its obvious that standard probiotics will not be very helpful for those transitioning away from carbohydrate rich diets toward a ketogenic one. I agree with Phil that there are starches which could be more beneficial to carnivorous low carb dieters than other forms of carbohydrate.

I have been an a low carb diet for some time and have experimented with different prebiotic carbs that I can tolerate. I do need some carbs every day to feel optimal, around 30 to 50 a day now. I have been relying on coconut to meet my basic needs, but have been experimenting with other varieties. I will eat some salad greens, with herbs and tomatoes and avocados. I will also top of my salad with some artichoke, or palm hearts. It has taken a long time to figure out just what foods will work in supporting good gut ecology without disrupting my fat burning metabolic capability.

Many plant fibers and carbs do not work well with me, and many starchy and fibrous vegetables will make me feel bloated

Everything is so lush and green now, and I would like to begin foraging for wild forms of vegetation that I may be better adapted to....

« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 05:33:01 am by sabertooth »
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Offline colorles

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #234 on: May 12, 2014, 02:26:44 am »
as i said, i didn't intend to put words in your mouth. i was more or less just responding to your point "humans are not carnivores"

i wouldn't turn down simple sources of carbs, in moderation. and during the autumn in particular i'l eat pears from my family pear tree in abundance (and of course share the harvest with friends and such), even if i normally don't eat larger fruits like that. but what they are to me at least, is nothing more than a supplement, an addition to an already solid mainstay diet of animal foods. and from what you have written, we seem to come to an accord on such, with the exception of the starches and the like. which, is something completely new to me, and from what i have read some of the longerstanding posters here as well. so as i said, it is something i will no doubt look into

i more or less just eat what feels right, and what fits according to the balanced and healthy paced lifestyle i am living a day at a time (not to mention climate). the body tends to know what it needs, at any given time (and of course eventually you learn to be able to tell the difference between drug like cravings to certain foods, which dissipate over time, and the bodies actual honest need for certain kinds of foods). i should know from my past, not to get too obsessive with anything, and that applies to diet. hence why even if i clearly favor one type of food over another, well nature itself tends to ensure that i eat a natural variety of things (after all, nature ensures that there are various berries to eat in the summer, plenty of fresh pears in the autumn to eat like i said, not to mention cranberries, and well as humans we have the ability to dry our food, so i have no doubt that paleo humans, at least some paleo humans would have learned to dry fruits and berries and store them throughout the winter. because even as the hunters of large fauna, any smart creature would take advantage of other food sources and the potential for food storage. same thing applies to smoking meats, which i firmly believe was one of if not the first usage of fire on meats. after all, which smart creature would not take advantage of the ability to store dried meats? but i digress)

point being, nature is willing to lay a path for you, if you are willing to listen

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #235 on: May 12, 2014, 03:18:45 am »
I think you're right, Sabertooth, that at least some, and perhaps many, people need to transition between dietary types slowly and carefully, especially the longer they have been doing the prior type.

Colorles, I regard plant foods as more than supplements, especially if certain animal foods that are higher in prebiotics and carbs are not plentiful, such as fresh, frozen or fermented raw sea mammal foods like muktuk (up to 25% carbs and plenty of prebiotics, http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html).

I agree that we need to pay attention to signals from our own bodies, and also pay attention to the health of the 90% or so of our cells that are made up by the commensal microorganisms within and on us, which is not as easily detected.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 03:24:03 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online sabertooth

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #236 on: May 16, 2014, 10:47:00 am »
Plastic zippers are sooo not paleo!
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Offline political atheist

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #237 on: August 09, 2015, 07:32:14 pm »
does mature coconut meat and coconut flour and avocados contain RS?

does soaked and/ or sprouted nuts/seeds contain RS?

does fermented veggies contain RS?

plantain must be green like bananas to get the RS?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #238 on: August 10, 2015, 03:46:27 am »
does mature coconut meat and coconut flour and avocados contain RS?
No. Resistant starch is in foods that contain starch. Coconut fiber likely contains other prebiotic microbiota-accessible carbs (MACs), though I don't know what type.

does soaked and/ or sprouted nuts/seeds contain RS? - Some do (such as chestnuts, cashews, and sunflower seeds), sprouted contain less.

Tiger nuts are another nut-like food, though they are actually a marsh sedge tuber (water chestnuts are also marsh sedge tubers that contain plenty of RS). Tiger nuts reportedly "contain almost twice the starch of potatoes" http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/blog/tigernuts-the-original-superfood. They have been consumed by humans and proto-humans for at least a couple million years, back before even the earliest estimated date of 1.9 mya for the start of cooking (and most at this forum don't think cooking started that early). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm

does fermented veggies contain RS? - most do not, but they do contain other prebiotic MACs, such as oligosaccharides.

plantain must be green like bananas to get the RS? - No, but the more green, the higher the RS content. I like plantains slightly ripened (still mostly green) and dried. I often also dry them while very green. Bananas don't dry very well, so I like them a bit more ripe and eat them at various stages of ripeness.

Here is a list of the RS content of various foods (most, but not all, are typically cooked):

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/08/resistant-starch-content-of-foods-other-anecdote-and-miscellania.html

Some also say that jicama contains starch (and therefore RS), but there are conflicting reports on that. Jicama has been reported by some to taste similar to //ekwa tubers, which do contain starch (up to almost 3 times as much starch as cooked russet potatoes), and therefore RS:

"Among the 5 species of //ekwa tubers, the starch content range was from 5.0 g/100 g to 51.1 g/100 g."
Composition of Tubers Used by Hadza Foragers of Tanzania
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/bec/papers/Schoeninger1.pdf

Raw russet potato, 15.9 g / 100 g
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2547/2

Potatoes, Russet, flesh and skin, baked, 17.4 g / 100 g
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2550/2

The Hadza (Hadzabe) have been reported to often eat //ekwa tubers raw or briefly cooked (one Hadza man said that they minimally cook tubers and only because it makes it easier to remove the skins, not to improve taste or digestibility--though that was just one report from one individual and therefore not conclusive, of course).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:16:56 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Satya

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #239 on: August 25, 2015, 06:03:12 am »
Hi Phil.  Looks like I found a new place to debate you on RS.  -d  Doesn't RS have a topic of its own though? 

Isn't it true that the microbes that eat RS can also consume other non starch polysaccharides (fiber) and so really, consuming starch is not actually necessary to feed these guys?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #240 on: August 25, 2015, 06:12:59 am »
Hi Phil.  Looks like I found a new place to debate you on RS.  -d  Doesn't RS have a topic of its own though?
Somewhere, yeah. I said most of what was on my mind about it and the questions and responses were getting redundant, so I stopped contributing to it. I'm also not into hard-selling others on things, just sharing info so folks can decide for themselves.

Quote
Isn't it true that the microbes that eat RS can also consume other non starch polysaccharides (fiber) and so really, consuming starch is not actually necessary to feed these guys?
Wouldn't that apply vice-versa too? Why pick on only RS? Could it be because it has the evil word "starch" in it? ;)

I'm not as huge a fan of RS-rich foods as some folks (I actually started out as a skeptic of it in this forum and have debated some of the RS superfans elsewhere too :) ), and haven't had the miraculous results that some did, but I have found them to be a net plus overall (for example, just yesterday my aunt said I was looking better--even "younger" :) ), even though I was already eating the other prebiotic foods touted by LCers as alternatives to RS, and don't see a reason to exclude all the RS foods simply because of the word "starch." That said, I wouldn't want anyone to eat any type of food just because I had fairly good early results with it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 06:20:57 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Satya

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #241 on: August 25, 2015, 09:22:45 pm »
Wouldn't that apply vice-versa too? Why pick on only RS? Could it be because it has the evil word "starch" in it? ;)

Starch is not necessarily evil, but it depends upon genetic context, as some people can digest it better than others (eg, Masterjohn showed vast genetic variation in the number of amylase genes).  But the reductionist isolation approach to RS, which has often been to eat raw potato starch has been perhaps a bigger problem for some people than a vlc ketogenic approach ever was or will be. You foment against vlc...or rather foam at the mouth about here, ;D yet the RS experiment is pretty much the same ball of wax, is it not? 

I am simply stating that for people who want to avoid starches, eating fiber can feed the beasties so they don't have to compromise - for whatever reason - and eat things they may not do well with.


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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #242 on: August 25, 2015, 10:29:44 pm »
I also notice that many RS foods have other antinutrient or digestive agitative factors which people who lack the amylase and microbes to break down, have trouble with.

That's why I am extremely picky about my carb choices, and notice that some plant fibers and starches are more compatible with my particular needs than others.

I've started experimenting with concocting home made dirt smoothies, I was looking at my compost pile which is composed of vegetable waste, meat waste and a little peat moss, that has been tilled into a black soil by my chickens. Once fully broken down I noticed how rich it looked and how clean and earthy it smelled, so I grabbed a handful mixed it with water and threw it into the blendtec, and presto I have invented the ultimate prebiotic smoothie.

Its still in the early stages, but after two weeks of drinking dirty water, I haven't had any issues and my bowels are working fine.

Its funny that people spend a fortune juicing and blending organic veggies, or experiment with processed raw starches in order to build gut ecology or cleanse out bad gut ecology, when a much more rational and economic solution may just be to eat dirt?
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Offline political atheist

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #243 on: August 26, 2015, 01:59:23 am »
i read that old timers who are now 100 years old, pretty much healthy and strong independent, ate raw potatoes like apples.. thats 100% raw natural RS

anybody eats/ate raw potatoes?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #244 on: August 26, 2015, 03:11:21 am »
I gather that only sweet potatoes are truly edible, the other types have far too many antinutrient levels in them.
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Offline Satya

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #245 on: August 26, 2015, 04:16:50 am »
I've started experimenting with concocting home made dirt smoothies, I was looking at my compost pile which is composed of vegetable waste, meat waste and a little peat moss, that has been tilled into a black soil by my chickens. Once fully broken down I noticed how rich it looked and how clean and earthy it smelled, so I grabbed a handful mixed it with water and threw it into the blendtec, and presto I have invented the ultimate prebiotic smoothie.

What's wrong with you?  You could be ca$hing in big time on your dirt smoothie idea!  In fact, not only is it prebiotic and probiotic, it's postbiotic too, as it comes from the compost heap and may contain chicken droppings!  Think of the raw paleo parties you could throw with the profits from your invention,.  Better get cracking before someone else steals your thunder.  ;)

Offline jessica

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #246 on: August 26, 2015, 06:40:23 am »
sweet potatoes are high oxalates, which can fuck some people up.

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #247 on: August 26, 2015, 10:20:40 am »
Starch is not necessarily evil, but it depends upon genetic context, as some people can digest it better than others (eg, Masterjohn showed vast genetic variation in the number of amylase genes).
And there is also much more to it than genes. There are also microbes, epigenetics, enzymes, and other cofactors. 

I don't advocate a reductionist isolation approach focused only on Bob's Red Mill PS. Even Tatertot from the start advocated whole food sources too. He is much more strongly positive about BRM PS than me and loves to answer questions about it at an MDA thread on it, and he knows more about it than me. So if you're looking for someone to debate about it with, he's your man. :)

i read that old timers who are now 100 years old, pretty much healthy and strong independent, ate raw potatoes like apples.. thats 100% raw natural RS

anybody eats/ate raw potatoes?
Yes, my grandfather used to eat raw potatoes now and then, though probably not enough to attribute health benefits to, and I eat some small, fresh raw potatoes, preferably organic. Raw potato juice is also an old folk remedy. I find high quality raw potatoes to be more digestible and tastier than most sweet potatoes, though I'm not a big fan of sweet potatoes, haven't seen very small sweet potatoes yet, and haven't tried the variety(ies) of sweet potatoes that are commonly eaten raw. I have seen people with nightshade allergies or digestive or microbial issues report problems with raw potatoes (or RPS) and I'm not telling anyone else what to do, but I haven't had any significant problems with them, FWIW, aside from a tiny bit of tingling in my upper mouth/throat from some.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 10:28:35 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online sabertooth

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #248 on: August 26, 2015, 10:30:22 pm »
My granny told me about my great grandparents occasionally biting into raw potatoes, and eating whole raw onions.
They also ate fermented Beans and Sweet Potatoes, these people were dirt poor and lived like mountain goats, eating practically anything they could to keep from going hungry.

What's wrong with you?  You could be ca$hing in big time on your dirt smoothie idea!  In fact, not only is it prebiotic and probiotic, it's postbiotic too, as it comes from the compost heap and may contain chicken droppings!  Think of the raw paleo parties you could throw with the profits from your invention,.  Better get cracking before someone else steals your thunder.  ;)


Homemade probiotic dirt supplements is kind of a hard sell these days, back in the depression days my granny made mud pies, and her brother would be given worms by my great grandmother as a snack. They lived in dirt running barefoot through the chicken coops and pig stys and the produce they ate was not triple washed.

Its just a bit funny knowing what I have learned, that people would pay lots of money to have some special clay delivered to their home, and for probiotic powders and tablets. When they could just take a little time to cultivate their own.... But people are fearful, and no doubt the clean and pure dirt my grandparents wallowed in as children has been tainted. People are now so afraid of tainted dirt that they have to have some organizations assurance that everything is pure and completely free of " Pathogenic Bacteria"

Could you imagine the shitstorm the FDA would have is someone like me ever tried to market Raw edible compost that contained rotten animal flesh and possibly chicken shit?
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #249 on: August 26, 2015, 11:25:13 pm »
I also eat raw potatoes sometimes, as well as a range of other raw tubers. Sometimes I blend them into smoothies, sometimes slice them thin and add them to wild green salads. I recall the first few times I did this I got gas, but after that it's been fine. Seems to me that our microbiomes take time to adjust to new eating practices, but it does adjust.

Dirt smoothies sounds intriguing. I might try that.

 

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