Author Topic: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes  (Read 8195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline raw-al

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,956
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« on: February 07, 2014, 04:53:04 am »
I have no horse in this race BTW, as I am not a consumer of any consciousness changing chemistry. I also am not a believer in making marijuana illegal, however, here is a short, interesting article by a man who does lots of brain scans in his clinics. (70,000 or so)

http://www.amenclinics.com/dr-amen/blog/2014/02/marijuana-causes-long-term-brain-changes?inf_contact_key=2619fe9020c3b9fd85cc98eb3327976041ec44fd79edb467d807ddedc6e2773f

What think ye?
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2014, 05:37:06 am »
Brain Pollution and the Real Reason You Shouldn’t Use Drugs

The above page is fine and truthful. But I have a reservation about the following paragraph in the other page, the one you linked:
Quote
Some argue that marijuana is not addictive, but as this study demonstrates, it is a drug like any other.  Anything that makes us feel good—be it food, drugs, alcohol, exercise, gambling, or sex—causes a rewiring of the pleasure centers in the brain and intensifies cravings for it.
He seems to put in the same box “food, drugs, alcohol, exercise, gambling, or sex”. But implying that having normal food (raw paleo), normal sexuality and exercise are addictive is a mistake because these activities have no adverse consequences: on the contrary they are beneficial.   

Once again, it makes no sense to use the word "addicted" in such a case. Is it an "addiction" to breath? To drink water when thirsty?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction
    Addiction is the continued repetition of a behavior despite adverse consequences,[1] or a neurological impairment leading to such behaviors.[2]
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline jessica

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,016
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2014, 06:15:42 am »
Could be that these brains aren't able to utilize the changes because they don't have the proper nutrients to enable rewiring :D 

Offline raw-al

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,956
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2014, 11:14:03 am »
Brain Pollution and the Real Reason You Shouldn’t Use Drugs

The above page is fine and truthful. But I have a reservation about the following paragraph in the other page, the one you linked: He seems to put in the same box “food, drugs, alcohol, exercise, gambling, or sex”. But implying that having normal food (raw paleo), normal sexuality and exercise are addictive is a mistake because these activities have no adverse consequences: on the contrary they are beneficial.   
I generally agree with a lot of what Dr. Amen says, but you are right in your assessment. I mean ya gotta eat....  HIs wife has written a book which is on a weight loss by vegan lifestyle, so that's her opinion, which I don't share. Some of the PPL he deals with are on a diet in which anything would be better than the status quo.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,000
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2014, 03:13:31 pm »
Well,  I have gone through stages  where I got addicted to eating rawpalaeo foods in too large amounts. Not any more, though. I now just eat for nutrients.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Carne Cruda

  • Scavenger
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2014, 04:38:50 pm »
He seems to put in the same box “food, drugs, alcohol, exercise, gambling, or sex”. But implying that having normal food (raw paleo), normal sexuality and exercise are addictive is a mistake because these activities have no adverse consequences: on the contrary they are beneficial.

I personally like that paragraph quite a bit, instead. I agree with it.

I think that even "normal food" can be addictive. Things like raw meat not that likely, but fruit very easily. But anyway I doubt they were thinking of "raw paleo" when talking about "food".
So can be sex and even exercise, potentially.

Of course they are not in the same ballgame with drugs and the likes of, but I'd have a hard time going against:
"Anything that makes us feel good, causes a rewiring of the pleasure centers in the brain and intensifies cravings for it."
More or less.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 04:44:25 pm by Carne Cruda »

Offline eveheart

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,315
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2014, 11:04:45 pm »
Like many other words in the lexicon, addiction has more than one connotation. In a formal, clinical sense, "the continued repetition of a behavior despite adverse consequences, or a neurological impairment leading to such behaviors" (cited from Wikipedia below) is a good definition. There is a lot of supportive research that studies the neurological impairment. A good book that details this information is Gabor Mate's In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction.

In informal usage, it can mean anything.

And, of course, the meanings can overlap.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline raw-al

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,956
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2014, 01:19:33 am »
Eve,
Of course this is why two Drs can come to completely different conclusions regarding a patient.

Fact of the matter is that if you go in for an assessment a Dr is fishing for business. That's normal human behaviour to a certain degree.
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2014, 05:33:34 am »
Well,  I have gone through stages  where I got addicted to eating rawpalaeo foods in too large amounts.

Yes, me too. But this is the result of abnormal situations, such as loneliness, dissatisfaction in our lives,  lack of sexual loving relations or failed love relationship, boredom, etc. which would not have commonly happened in a tribe. 

Gluttony doesn’t exist in normal, natural (raw paleo) situations. It’s rather the expression of our dietary instinct. 

I personally like that paragraph quite a bit, instead. I agree with it.

I think that even "normal food" can be addictive. Things like raw meat not that likely, but fruit very easily. But anyway I doubt they were thinking of "raw paleo" when talking about "food". So can be sex and even exercise, potentially.

Of course they are not in the same ballgame with drugs and the likes of, but I'd have a hard time going against:
"Anything that makes us feel good, causes a rewiring of the pleasure centers in the brain and intensifies cravings for it."
More or less.

Yes, he wasn’t thinking about raw paleo in writing that paragraph and he’s of course in the ubiquitous current paradigm that something can taste good while being bad for our health. But this contradiction — which impregnate our whole culture and society in almost every aspect — falls with the instinctive raw paleo diet. Unprocessed wild foods either taste bad and are noxious or taste good and are beneficial.

No, we can eat too much of domestic animal meats such as beef and lamb, as well as we can eat to much of cultivated fruits. This doesn’t happen with unprocessed, unmixed wild foods.

The paradox that sometimes good = bad  or  bad = good doesn’t exist in natural conditions: if it had been prevalent, animal life on this planet wouldn’t have flourished and we wouldn’t be here.

Think about it, guys. The consequences in all social sciences and even in philosophy (ethics) are tremendous. We finally have a coherent ethic, based on facts. It’s an awesome fundamental revolution!

An outstanding professor of philosophy told us about GCB : “ If our civilization survives, I think he’ll be recognized in the future as one of the greatest thinker of history”.
   
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2014, 03:03:38 pm »
Could be that these brains aren't able to utilize the changes because they don't have the proper nutrients to enable rewiring :D 

Yes, it could be that a lack of proper nutrients and a constant influx of organic molecules spoiled by heat hinders healing. Some damages are probably irreversible, but some may be reversible. At least, with an instinctively governed paleo diet and a proper lifestyle, the best healing chances are provided.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline nummi

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 03:41:11 pm »
Smoking is cooking... just so you knew...

If you cannot do something creative, or any similarly demanding mental activity, without getting "high" you aren't doing it right in the first place.
Being sober is a far better state of such productivity. (Based on some posts in a writers forum a few years ago. Apparently there were those who'd "tested" it or just noticed being high is inferior. That while you are high you think you are that good, as if the best ever, but when being sober and you compare yourself to your "high" self you see it is not true at all.)
Isn't it supposed to be about you being in control while producing something?

Those 10 potheads.... they all have the same melted looking face, like something's not exactly right... faces like they generally don't care, or they are incapable of caring "the right way"... something's not right with their brains, with their minds...
As well, in true reality, money does not determine "success". What is success, do you know? If you have lots of money it's most likely because you are that good a liar and deceiver and obsessed with money in the first place.

If you cannot do without smoking such crap there is something seriously wrong with you. Probably began from you not having "found yourself", nor knowing "what life is", what truly matters. You know, the simple things.

Does smoking pot make you more acceptive of matters that should be criticized? More forgiving of wrongs? And more "hugging" of good news, and less "hugging" of big good news? Like balancing it all out? Would explain all the pothead (fatal) accidents (suicides)... you simply lose track of true reality, you lose the sense of "right and wrong". Brain damage.
Seems to me like smoking pot makes one's mind more numb in general, in every direction (based on all I've heard and read about it). Like sharpness is destroyed and no matter the good news they're always similar of strength, as if a small good news is the same as a big one. There was another one here who admitted doing drugs and... my my, what a not coincidence, exhibited the exact same quality/tone you do. Your senses, mind, perceptions are numbed and softened. You really should not be glad and happy about such influence, because it is damage, brain damage. Reading your posts is like seeing a person who has partially shut the senses to reality, like you want to avoid and ignore something - the sharpness, like you just want to just slide through it all.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 03:44:06 pm »
I banned Evil Eye and removed his post, the one to which you respond. We don't want drug addicts here.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,000
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 06:22:26 pm »
Err, Iguana, this sort of banning should not have happened until you had mentioned the poster on the moderators forum. Instant banning is only considered OK if the person is deliberately trolling and insulting rawpalaeodieters or the rawpaleodiet in general.


We have had one or two posters in the past who have admitted to using dope relatively regularly. They did not cause any trouble and their posts were sometimes of interest. So I do not think we can just exclude dope-users automatically without cause.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 10:08:19 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 06:32:27 pm »
Sorry, but his posts showed that he is a real troll. I routinely ban several spammers every morning and remove their posts, which takes some time and becomes really annoying. These ones were of the same class and went away along. 

PS: I unbanned him, so he can post again.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 09:29:51 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline jessica

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,016
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 09:56:08 pm »
Its not irreversible if you are in good health.  I think the only issue is when it becomes habitual or something you rely on to produce a certain state, instead of something that just introduces you to that state.  I also think that it is important to be aware of how you are taking marijuana, as with any other herb or substance you are putting in your body. its quality, strain and how and by whom it was grown are all important factors as well as if you intend to smoke it, ingest it, vaporize it, tincture it, use as a salve, use as a soap, use as a fiber, use as a fodder..... 

I think its a pity to be absolute about anything without considering the user, their mental, physical and emotional health and lifestyle, their intentions for use, the plant, its quality, how you take it, etcetcetc. 

I do think that the way we use these substances in our society is definitely destructive, but that is just a product of our times.  I mean, we use corn, soy and wheat to our own demise, so its no wonder we have absolutely no respect and no idea how to use these other plants in a beneficial way.  I don't think that marijuana, opium, coca plants or mushrooms are intrinsically evil, we are the misusers and abuser, not the plants.  they have lessons for us in that, and they have greater lessons for us when we respect them too.  those lessons can be reaped by respectfully using them internally when they are the most appropriate medicine for mind, body or soul, or just respecting them externally and allowing them to flourish and heal environments and have their other beneficial uses like all plants do.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 10:10:54 pm by jessica »

Offline jessica

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,016
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 10:14:25 pm »

Isn't it supposed to be about you being in control while producing something?


humans having the illusions of "control" while "producing" things is the whole issue here, lol.  there are certain plant teachers that can totally smash that illusion and reframe life in a much more dynamic way, there are paths to walk spiritually that will get you to the same place, but most people are so shut down and so insecure and in need of control that they will never even allow themselves to step one food down that path.

Offline LePatron7

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,672
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2014, 01:29:10 am »
Could be that these brains aren't able to utilize the changes because they don't have the proper nutrients to enable rewiring :D

Could also be that long term marijuana use disrupts the body's normal endocannabinoid function.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system - Article with information on the body's endocannabinoid system.

http://headsup.scholastic.com/articles/endocannabinoid

"How Does THC Affect the EC System and Behavior?

When a person smokes marijuana, THC overwhelms the EC system, quickly attaching to cannabinoid receptors throughout the brain and body. This interferes with the ability of natural cannabinoids to do their job of fine-tuning communication between neurons, which can throw the entire system off balance."
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline Evil Eye

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2014, 07:12:20 am »
troll i am not.

so i get banned and un banned in between posts .. wow.. and you remove  a few of my posts as well..

cannabis isn't a drug... and it helps cancer patients .. if you are anti weed you are pro cancer ...

get off your high horse.

im all set with this place.. good luck guys.

i have read most of your posts iguana.. i am not a troll. but as far as me responding any more.. i am done. i wont waste my time putting my thoughts into a post.. just to have someone censor me. that is unacceptable.




« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:23:45 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline raw-al

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,956
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2014, 07:18:45 am »
Being an administrator is a thankless job. You read a ton of garbage and filter it out before the others read it. This can tend to bring out cynicism.

Evil,
If you want to discuss your topic, giving up is your loss as well as ours. High horses are are in the eye of the beholder.
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2014, 08:23:07 am »
Thanks, raw-al.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline nummi

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2014, 05:53:29 pm »
cannibus isnt a drug... and it helps cancer patients .. if you are anti weed you are pro cancer ...
This is an excuse for yourself to not stop using... After all, you are generalizing from one insignificant point that probably isn't even true in the first place, and if is true through some "miracle" it isn't anywhere near the whole truth. And you take this as the absolute indicator. Speaks for itself really... a six letter word.

Intoxicant, drug, little difference. Messes with the body and mind either way.
Helps cancer patients? And those patients got cancer why exactly? I assure you, it had nothing to do with not smoking pot. And the cure has nothing to do with smoking pot. Not even the raw variant. Using it makes ones mind numb, "cuts the edges", makes one "happier", as a result reduces stress which is a strong catalyst for health problems. You literally become incapable of normal sharpness of perception of yourself and your surroundings and others.

If you smoke, in general. Or use any substances like this. Do it privately, without anyone seeing it, and never tell others it is good and okay. Because smoking and using such substances is bad. You speaking out as you do, as if they are good and okay, are propagating a mentality without awareness to harm and damage they cause. People unaware and not knowing enough might take notice of your sayings and comments of denial.

Offline LePatron7

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,672
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2014, 02:16:11 am »
This is an excuse for yourself to not stop using... After all, you are generalizing from one insignificant point that probably isn't even true in the first place, and if is true through some "miracle" it isn't anywhere near the whole truth. And you take this as the absolute indicator. Speaks for itself really... a six letter word.

Intoxicant, drug, little difference. Messes with the body and mind either way.
Helps cancer patients? And those patients got cancer why exactly? I assure you, it had nothing to do with not smoking pot. And the cure has nothing to do with smoking pot. Not even the raw variant. Using it makes ones mind numb, "cuts the edges", makes one "happier", as a result reduces stress which is a strong catalyst for health problems. You literally become incapable of normal sharpness of perception of yourself and your surroundings and others.

If you smoke, in general. Or use any substances like this. Do it privately, without anyone seeing it, and never tell others it is good and okay. Because smoking and using such substances is bad. You speaking out as you do, as if they are good and okay, are propagating a mentality without awareness to harm and damage they cause. People unaware and not knowing enough might take notice of your sayings and comments of denial.

A round of applause to you Nummi. Very well said.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline raw-al

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,956
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2014, 03:15:39 am »
Iguana,
You and all the rest of the admins deserve that and more. We're the ones that should be thanking.

Nummi and DB88,

I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Marijuana is useful as a cure or certainly containing cancer. This is a fact. Prior to it's prohibition it was contained in a huge amount of medicinals. However having said that, Coca Cola (cocaine etc) and Pepsi were too, and cocaine, heroin alcohol,  raw petroleum (John D. Rockefella's father sold it as a cancer cure) and heaven knows what else....

However smoking pot ain't gonna stop you from getting cancer.... probably long term use of it would beat down your immunity to the point of possibly getting it or something else.

Using MJ recreational is a waste of life IMO. I experimented with it years ago as I did with alcohol etc. However for some PPL it is their choice and I say go for it, find out what you need to know. I don't think it should be illegal as that is all about politics and money with big pharma, cotton and synthetics manufacturers etc. Us taxpayers pay for this stupid law in the millions or billions both in law enforcement and incarceration.

I am rooting for it's legalization.
Cheers
Al

Offline ys

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,323
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2014, 08:56:55 am »
Quote
Marijuana is useful as a cure

More like a temporary relieving symptoms.  Just like any other drug out there, synthetic or non.  There is not a single drug including cannabis that can really cure any degenerative diseases.

Offline raw-al

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,956
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Marijuana Causes Long-term Brain Changes
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2014, 11:54:16 am »
Cannabis can cure cancer. Prove it to be otherwise I say. Many PPL have been cured by it.

It is quite humorous that you added a caveat "single drug". That is the problem with Allopathy, it is based on the pipe-dream that drugs need to be quantified, reduced to the 'single miracle active ingredient'. It's an old marketing myth invented and perpetuated by a bunch of "hoods" in the Allopathic legal and marketing departments. They are very good at creative lying.

There is a boatload of "alternative" methods/machines/herbs that quite handily give the boot to cancer.

As opposed to chemo f'ristance which is still listed as "experimental" because it's rate of "cure is something like 2.1% past the 5 year mark. You have to sign a release indicating that you understand it is an 'experimental drug' when you take it to absolve the drug companies of any liability. Still "experimental" yet in use over a hundred years and a pathetic success rate. How do you spell M O N E Y.

Cancer physicians know that if they allow any other methods/cures in they will be job hunting and the drug companies will be run out of town.
Cheers
Al

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk