Author Topic: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings  (Read 21073 times)

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Offline eveheart

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2014, 02:27:46 am »
Why can’t he eat scallops? Because he doesn’t like them? And Iif he likes scallops, then there’s no reason for him to avoid them. But better avoid shelled ones, we don’t know what kind of processing they have been through.

Scallops are not a local food in the San Francisco area. I found a place to buy them in the shell... for US$7 per scallop. Almost all scallops sold here are the frozen muscle only because whole scallops spoil too quickly to make it to market here.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2014, 03:14:20 am »
That's strange. I managed to buy raw scallops in the shell for 70 pence a scallop 3 years ago in London at a farmer's market. They were definitely not prefrozen(for some reason, freezing really destroys scallops more than any other raw shellfish).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 04:40:34 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2014, 03:43:38 am »
As some people probably know from my thread, my boyfriend is in the process of healing his eczema. It was highly recommended to remove even the slightest potentially allergenic foods, which includes scallops (shellfish). As I had said before, I could easily buy some for myself. I just generally buy what we both will definitely eat. Also, I have never seen in-shell scallops.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2014, 04:28:34 am »
Everyone is different and has different needs. In a family, one will enjoy something that another one loaths. But, ok, if you don’t have access to scallops in-shell, better avoid shelled ones. Maybe you could find other shellfish?

Yeah… Such medical recommendations are for people on standard cooked diet. It’s not valid for us and even opposed to what we should do!

So, what in itself is an "allergic" reaction? It is a reaction of the immune system that disturbs the host, because it is stronger than normally, resulting in unpleasant symptoms.

There is no clear boundary between so-called normal immune response against foreign molecules (called antigens to express the fact that they trigger antibody formation) and an allergic reaction, except that the latter seems to escape the normal regulatory mechanisms (which can be recognized in the silence of the organs).

Why can there be a relationship between NCS (New Chemical Species derived from processing that accumulate in the body) and common antigens (all molecules from the environment recognized as foreign by the organism: hair, dust mites etc.)?

For a very simple reason that we usually don’t think about enough: there are multitudes of "cross-reactions" between different antigens. "Cross reaction" means that two different antigens trigger the same reaction of the immune system because of similar molecular surfaces.

Principally, the immune system identifies each antigen and implements a specific reaction. Each antibody produced has molecular reliefs which correspond exactly to the reliefs of the antigenic molecule to which it is intended. There is little risk of confusion. But with the billions of possibilities, some reliefs still lead to confusion, calleds "cross reactions" by immunologist.

It is thus understandable that a reaction triggered by a new antigen may be of unexpected importance if a similar antigen has already been introduced into the body and has "sensitized" the immune system. Therefore, food antigens (incompletely degraded molecules crossing the intestinal barrier) can sensitize the immune system, so that other antigens (dust, pollen, etc.) will trigger apparently inexplicable cross-reactions. This will ultimately lead to an allergy to foreign antigens, without suspecting that the reaction itself is induced by food antigens.

The converse suggests that by stopping the penetration of these food antigens (switching to a natural diet which doesn't contain the same non-degradable molecules), the immune response to environmental antigens will decrease rapidly. This is what can commonly be observed after transition to instincto.

However, there are some cases where these reactions occur with delay. The organism can indeed learn to tolerate certain antigens, such as the effect of repetitive consumption of dairy products. Then it may happen years later that a new antigen, from an unusual food, from an insect bite, from a bacterium, will cause the awakening of the immune system (immunologists refer to it as "breakdown of tolerance"). This apparently inexplicable reaction thus may seem disproportionate.

Reactions of this type are called "detoxination reaction" in instincto slang. Note that antigens capable of "awakening" the immune system, can derive from microorganisms (bacteria, fungi, viruses, or from another organism), but foods are most often sources of antigens that provoke a breakdown of tolerance.

This concept is compatible with conventional notions of immunology, except that immunologists have not yet realized the importance of food antigens since they are unable to show their effect in the too repetitive context of a traditionally cooked diet.

Regards
GCB

Phil, I read the paper you linked. A boring read written by scholars unable to understand the ways of thinking of hunther-gatherers or even of Polynesians. It says they share food, something that we already know; we also know that they not only share food, but everything within the tribe including sexual partners and children, something these researchers don’t seem to be aware of. Chimps and moreover bonobos also share food, partners and offspring.

It doesn’t mean that as far back as 2 millions years ago our ancestors regularly mixed foods and often had simultaneously access to meat and honey. Even if they would by chance get both at the same time, they probably would not even eat both at the same meal, but rather gorge on what they preferred until their instinctive stop by total repletion, like animals do.

Cheers
François
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline eveheart

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2014, 04:35:24 am »
That's strange. I managed to buy raw scallops in the shell for 70 pence a scallop 3 years ago in London at a farmer's market. They were definitely not prefrozen(for some reasin, freezing really destroys scallops more than any other raw shellfish).

Nothing strange about it. You are in the north Atlantic, where scallops are from. We just don't have them in the waters of the west coast of the US. Japan has cultured scallops, but they are shipped here cooked whole and out of the shell.
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Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2014, 05:23:27 am »
Everyone is different and has different needs. In a family, one will enjoy something that another one loaths.

We generally get the same exact cravings day in and day out. Things have changed since we've started his healing since he's taking some supplements and focusing on eating other foods, so I can assume our nutrient balances are not in sync anymore. Sounds silly, but we did go months of having the exact same cravings/interests each day.

But, ok, if you don’t have access to scallops in-shell, better avoid shelled ones. Maybe you could find other shellfish?

Are shelled that bad? Just wondering because I do really love raw scallops. We can definitely get shrimp, had that a couple of times. Oysters come and go, so that's an option at times. Whenever I think of clams and mussels I feel like I'd be lazy opening all of those shells hehe.

Yeah… Such medical recommendations are for people on standard cooked diet. It’s not valid for us and even opposed to what we should do!

I do doubt that raw shellfish or eggs are going to be harming him. But in order to just get this healing done once and for all, I'm taking all precautions. Even if it's over the top or might seem unnecessary. And things are improving now, so I don't want to do anything that might stall it.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2014, 07:00:54 am »
It doesn’t mean that as far back as 2 millions years ago our ancestors regularly mixed foods and often had simultaneously access to meat and honey. Even if they would by chance get both at the same time, they probably would not even eat both at the same meal, but rather gorge on what they preferred until their instinctive stop by total repletion, like animals do.
By "probably" do you mean you're not sure of that?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2014, 07:27:54 am »
Somehow, yes...!  ;D 

By "probably", I meant "most of the times", but there would certainly have been exceptions, just like animals and pre-fire-control-hominids would once in a way have access to grilled meat or tubers after a wildfire ignited by a lightning or after a volcanic eruption.

Or perhaps someone would have eaten some honey as a dessert.

Even monkeys recently learned to wash their sweet potatoes in the sea, thus salting them, which is a recipe...   ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2014, 11:16:17 am »
I don't see the value in relating our past eating habits (an unknown) to animals.  For humans do so many things differently to begin with, as in cook, dry, powder or grind, mix, freeze, ferment, and the list goes on.    Yes, I would never doubt the intelligence of many animals, but creativity is something different.  And boredom is another, something rarely seen with animals in the wild, but groups of humans living together most likely not,, especially when the food is plentiful. 

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2014, 08:38:43 pm »
Yes, humans have done those things ("cook, dry, powder or grind, mix, freeze, etc.") for a few millennia  and since they do that they also have set up armies, police, judges, prisons, huge hospitals, barbed wire fences, frontiers, weapons of mass destruction, they rape, torture, kill each other, do genocides and  horrifying wars, spoil the environment, pollute the air, rivers, lakes and seas, deplete the wildlife and fish stocks, destroy countless entire species, burn and destroy the primary forests, make deserts, consume in a century or two all the oil nature made in rare instances 100 or 150 millions years ago, etc.  -d  How boring life would be without that, isn’t it?

The point in relating our past habits to animals is that our far ancestors were animals and thus behaved like animals, and that we are still animals although  we think we are so much superiors and so great creators.  ;D     
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:53:16 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2014, 09:48:29 pm »
Somehow, yes...!  ;D 

By "probably", I meant "most of the times", but there would certainly have been exceptions, just like animals and pre-fire-control-hominids would once in a way have access to grilled meat or tubers after a wildfire ignited by a lightning or after a volcanic eruption.

Or perhaps someone would have eaten some honey as a dessert.

Even monkeys recently learned to wash their sweet potatoes in the sea, thus salting them, which is a recipe...   ;)
OK, then at least we can agree on probably. You say probably not and I say probably so :D and I could be wrong. No way of definitively proving it, so we're left with our own experience, Stone Age evidence, and observations of recent HG's, to go by and draw our own conclusions/hypotheses.

When the practice of bringing various foods back to the camp and sharing them began is an interesting question. I have read an account in the past of HG's doing something along the lines of getting lots of honeycomb from a hive, eating some of it, and then on the way home, spotting and killing an animal and then sharing and enjoying both together at a meal back at the camp. Wish I could find the link.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:53:54 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2014, 12:05:08 am »
Yes, humans have done those things ("cook, dry, powder or grind, mix, freeze, etc.") for a few millennia  and since they do that they also have set up armies, police, judges, prisons, huge hospitals, barbed wire fences, frontiers, weapons of mass destruction, they rape, torture, kill each other, do genocides and  horrifying wars, spoil the environment, pollute the air, rivers, lakes and seas, deplete the wildlife and fish stocks, destroy countless entire species, burn and destroy the primary forests, make deserts, consume in a century or two all the oil nature made in rare instances 100 or 150 millions years ago, etc.  -d  How boring life would be without that, isn’t it?

The point in relating our past habits to animals is that our far ancestors were animals and thus behaved like animals, and that we are still animals although  we think we are so much superiors and so great creators.  ;D     


  you sure can meander.  If you actually relate what I wrote to the mainstay of this discussion,,  at least for the last two pages,,  no animal mixes, freezes, powders, dries, ferments, cooks, etc..  But man does, and my guess is that early man,,  thousands or millions of years ago did the same.  Why, because he's possibly more curious, or creative than an animal.  And, hence, trying honey on meat is Not such an inProbable occurrence.   Again, I'm not saying its 'healthy' or that it was their mainstay, or that we should do it or not do it.    But to insist that early man acted just as animals or were completely in alignment with only animal practices/instincts is in my opinion Instincto Dogma.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2014, 01:08:55 am »
OK, then at least we can agree on probably. You say probably not and I say probably so :D and I could be wrong. No way of definitively proving it, so we're left with our own experience,...
Yeah, that’s the point: it doesn’t really matters if consumption of meat and honey at the same meal occurred often or seldom and since how long ago.

In principle, in instincto nothing forbids to eat different foods one after the other. Thus, and still in principle, there’s no reason why we could not eat honey soon after meat or meat soon after honey. But experience  has shown that this is generally prone to cause poor digestion and overloads. Anyway, it depends on the person and the respective amounts; it may perhaps be ok for some people. It’s a matter of feeling and if we feel hungry enough and feel that we’ll be able to digest such a combo, then let’s try it. But most of us have neither the digestive capacity of a healthy hunther-gatherer  nor as much physical activity.

As a European, I’m not used to eat sweets along with meats, eggs or fish: it’s something completely alien to our culture, something typically North American that we tend to regard as coarse ways and lack of proper culinary customs. But most of all, I find it crazy to mix honey and meat to increase one’s appetite also because:

- We should eat according to our spontaneous appetite and if we have none, the natural thing to do is not eat.
- In nature, honey is in comb and thus we can’t pour it on meat
- By premixing raw foods, we can’t know how much of each we should eat and experience shows that by doing so we can easily overtake our digestive capacity, thus have an indigestion and/or  get into an overload of various nutrients


  you sure can meander.  If you actually relate what I wrote to the mainstay of this discussion,,  at least for the last two pages,,  no animal mixes, freezes, powders, dries, ferments, cooks, etc..  But man does, and my guess is that early man,,  thousands or millions of years ago did the same.

Cooking  couldn’t have been done millions years ago because our ancestors have used the fire since a few hundred thousands years only. As for food processing  such as powdering or freezing, technology is needed. “Early man” lived in the tropics and thus could not let his food naturally freeze.

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Why, because he's possibly more curious, or creative than an animal.
I’m not sure about that.

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And, hence, trying honey on meat is Not such an inProbable occurrence.  Again, I'm not saying its 'healthy' or that it was their mainstay, or that we should do it or not do it.    But to insist that early man acted just as animals or were completely in alignment with only animal practices/instincts is in my opinion Instincto Dogma.
It’s unfortunate that you don’t understand French and hence could not follow GCB’s seminar in which he explained  in great length that his theories are more questions than the ultimate truth, that the practice is an experiment to try to find provisional answers, like all scientific theories propose. Therefore it’s a stupid mistake and total lack of knowledge to call it “dogma”. Sorry, but I would rather not have to read such nonsense. 
 
The transition from apes to “early man” was of course gradual, there’s no clear boundary between apes and hominids. Moreover, we are apes.

Christopher Ryan & Cacilda Jethá assert that we are apes (thanks to GS for the info about these authors):
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Forget what you’ve heard about human beings having descended from the apes. We didn’t descend from apes. We are apes. Metaphorically and factually, Homo sapiens is one of the five surviving species of great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans (gibbons are considered a “lesser ape”). We shared a common ancestor with two of these apes—bonobos and chimps—just five million years ago. That’s “the day before yesterday” in evolutionary terms. The fine print distinguishing humans from the other great apes is regarded as “wholly artificial” by most primatologists these days.
Cheers
Francois
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:11:37 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2014, 01:46:58 am »
I'm not referring to any of GCB's investigations, but more to those who set them in stone,  as in here,  where you are saying that early man could not have put honey on their meat (comb or honey,  and by the way if you've ever broken apart a wild comb you'd have noticed that liquid  honey is running everywhere, and hopefully into their baskets or goat stomach bags)    let alone taking a bite of meat and then a bite of comb  ( Your limitations to back your argument are getting absurd).     All because he is an animal or ape and is strictly following his overriding instinct as an ape.  Now that is Dogma.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2014, 02:56:57 am »
 
I'm not referring to any of GCB's investigations, but more to those who set them in stone,  as in here,  where you are saying that early man could not have put honey on their meat

I didn’t say exactly that:
- In nature, honey is in comb and thus we can’t pour it on meat
Yeah, a bit of honey could be put on meat in the way you say. Even if it had been sporadically been done since 2 million years, then what? As I said, grilled meat could always have been sporadically found too after a wildfire.
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five million years ago. That’s “the day before yesterday” in evolutionary terms.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:15:44 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline eveheart

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2014, 03:08:03 am »
It’s unfortunate that you don’t understand French and hence could not follow GCB’s seminar in which he explained  in great length that his theories are more questions than the ultimate truth, that the practice is an experiment to try to find provisional answers, like all scientific theories propose. Therefore it’s a stupid mistake and total lack of knowledge to call it “dogma”. Sorry, but I would rather not have to read such nonsense. 

GCB's original intent may have been to explain his one, simple theory: Processing food messes with the instinctive process of the human appetite. Quoting GCB and treating his experiences as universally instructive make his words sound like dogma to me, too. As far as I am concerned, the minute someone says, "GCB says....," we are witnessing the birth of more dogma.

If, as you say, he goes to great lengths to explain that his "theories" are "questions," they why quote his words as if they were the truth? Why not let each natural eater ask his own questions and find his own provisional answers?
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2014, 03:12:45 am »
Did I write "GCB says"?? Did I quote his words as if they were the truth??

When you read "Aajonus says", doesn't it sound like dogma to you? Why nobody reacts when reading that?

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline eveheart

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2014, 03:19:48 am »
Did I write "GCB says"?? Did I quote his words as if they were the truth??

Yes, you often do.

Quote
When you read "Aajonus says", doesn't it sound like dogma to you? Why nobody reacts when reading that?

Yes, it does. People do react strongly to Aajonus's dogmatic side. Of course, AV had the added charm of having a quirky, eccentric, and fanciful side.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2014, 03:27:06 am »
Yes, you often do.

Not that I'm aware of. It would be helpful if you give a precise quote or reference.

I often quote him, but in my mind it's to make members aware of his ideas (because members seem to ignore them) and in hope to have a rational discussion about it with a  questioning  of these ideas (which could be wrong, of course). It seldom happened.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:48:52 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2014, 08:29:01 am »
Yeah, that’s the point: it doesn’t really matters if consumption of meat and honey at the same meal occurred often or seldom and since how long ago.
Yup, that's one of the points that Van and I have been trying to make, and thus absolute rules for everyone, based on unproven theory, prohibiting eating honey or spices at the same meal as meats seems more crazy than occasionally adding a tiny bit of flavour to or with meat by someone who says they have insufficient appetite.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2014, 03:45:48 pm »
Appetite is obviously an automatic natural regulation process which shouldn’t be disturbed by intellectual speculations based on our vastly incomplete knowledge.

There’s no “unproven theory prohibiting eating honey or spices at the same meal as meats”. A theory doesn’t prohibit any actions. I only mentioned a practical recommendation  based on experience,  and particularly an advice not to pre-mix meat and sweets — a mixing which by the way is not specific to the instincto practice but also part of traditional culinary customs, as Hanna pointed out.

Have a nice day
François
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:51:00 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2014, 09:29:31 pm »
The intellectual speculations we have been discussing are the food combining theory and to some extent the broader Instincto theory and more specifically your speculations about pre-fire Stone Agers not eating certain foods at the same meal, such as here:
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have...
and your calling something "the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read" based on your speculations and theories.

"I doubt" suggests a lack of certainty, which I commend. What say we agree that we're not certain and agree to disagree on what "probably" happened? After all, endless debate about theories doesn't do much to help the OP.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:48:11 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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