Author Topic: Please help~ Regarding colds/infections & heart symptoms on a carnivorous diet  (Read 9997 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline aem42290

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Hey all,

This is my first post, but I must say that I've been lurking these forums for a very long time. The knowledge I've gained from many of you has been valuable beyond measure (Lex, Paleophil, Tylerdurden, Eve, etc.), and I am truly grateful for the fact that this virtual gathering place exists. You are all brilliant people.

That said, I need some help. I know that a lot of you have been on zero carb/VLC/carnivorous diets for a while, and I would like to tap into your experiences regarding common colds/infections on the diet.

Let me share my story. It's a bit lengthy, but I promise it will be worth the read.

Recently, after six months of dealing with no illnesses, I caught what seemed like a cold/flu from a hospital visit (I was there with a relative.) A day after contracting the bug, my symptoms showed up as a runny nose, a bit of sneezing--and that was about it.

The illness seemed to dissipate into the mystical void of the hunter's metabolism. Not too terrible, eh? So it appeared, but then~

A couple of weeks later, I woke up at 3:30 AM with a racing heart (140 BPM.) For comparison, my resting heart rate is typically 43-45. As I was experiencing the tachycardia, I ran an EKG on myself and determined that there weren't any signs of critical arrhythmia. My heart was literally just beating at an accelerated rate for apparently no reason whatsoever. I panicked, despite the fact that I knew I wasn't in immediate danger. I'm careful about heart issues, even if my cardiovascular system can easily handle 170-180BPM (for short periods) safely.

While dealing with the tachycardia, I figured that my body needed quick-access energy (glucose) to prevent any further problems, so I ate a handful of wild blueberries. Things became stranger. I began to shiver. I wasn't cold--merely shivering intensely. My heart rate decreased a bit (to 100), so I ate another handful of berries--and then another. My heart rate dropped to 95 BPM and remained there for the rest of the next day. The shivering gradually disappeared. At 4:30AM, I didn't go back to sleep; instead, I went to the hospital and got some blood tests. Surprise, surprise: they came back stellar. The authoritative lab coat-clad geniuses in the E.R. eyed me angrily and I was released. They couldn't figure out what was wrong with my body. This didn't surprise me. After all, Western doctors are not used to dealing with healthy patients.

Throughout my waking hours after the incident, I continued to eat carbs (fermented sweet potatoes and blueberries), thinking they would help my recovery somehow (again, by providing resistant starches and reducing gluconeogenesis.)

And then something fascinating happened: while eating all of those carbs, my nose started to run again, my stomach felt upset, and my throat became extremely sore. Following my little potato and blueberry binge, I actually got sick. Wait, what? Yes, indeed. It seems that the little bug I had caught a few weeks before came out of hiding, and manifested in full-force.

Here's what I have thus far~

 To the best of my knowledge, the human body, while in raw VLC/ZC carnivorous mode, handles illnesses/common colds differently. Rather than destroying the invaders directly, it quarantines the pathogens, mitigates the expression of symptoms, and unconventionally manages the problems (but the question here is: does it ever actually deal with them?). My conclusion was that my heart issues were related to my body's attempts at somehow eradicating the tamed cold/flu that I had caught weeks earlier at the hospital (how it intended to go about eradicating the 'tamed' pathogens--well, that made little sense to me.)

My thinking is: when I ate the carbs, I fed the bug and it overwhelmed my immune system.  But why had my heart begun to race in such a frightening manner?

So, here I am to ask, after this absurdly long story, what all of your experiences with infections/colds/viruses on a ZC carnivorous diet are (since I was ZC when the incident occurred, and had been for a bit, let's leave it at ZC).

Have you ever experienced heart issues when sick with a common cold in the way that I described? How has your body dealt with the pathogens? What symptoms have you noticed?

Please share your thoughts. Any suggestions would help tremendously to calm my mind following what happened. Note that I know Paleophil has recently stated his position regarding chronic ZC and its dangers. Although I agree with some of his thoughts, I'd prefer to keep my ZC/carnivorous experiment going for a bit longer (since I feel healthy otherwise), and it'd be nice to receive input from some of the ZC/carnivorous veterans on this forum!

Very quickly, a bit of background: I've been VLC/carnivorous for about eight months now; I oscillate between the two, but tend to gravitate toward the latter. For many years, I ate the SAD, and at the age of 22, I began losing my grip on reality (becoming schizophrenic). After researching alternatives, I dropped the SAD and picked up raw ZC/VLC. My mental symptoms disappeared entirely. Luckily, I caught my cognitive degradation quickly enough. My mother is a schizophrenic. Unfortunately for her, she never had the chance to heal before her mind slipped. I'm a habitual weightlifter and scholar (weight 180, height: 6FT, Bodyfat: 11%). This diet has served me incredibly well. My mind is eerily sharp most days, and my physique is as powerful as I'd like it to be.

Thank you to all the wonderful people on this forum. Eager to hear your replies.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 08:23:45 am by aem42290 »

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Welcome, aem42290.
I woke up at 3:30 AM with a racing heart (140 BPM.) For comparison, my resting heart rate is typically 43-45. As I was experiencing the tachycardia, I ran an EKG on myself and determined that there weren't any signs of critical arrythmia. My heart was literally just beating at an accelerated rate for apparently no reason whatsoever. I panicked, despite the fact that I knew I wasn't in immediate danger. I'm careful about heart issues, even if my cardiovascular system can easily handle 170-180BPM (for short periods) safely.

... I went to the hospital and got some blood tests. Surprise, surprise: they came back stellar.
That sounds much like a nocturnal panic attack, which happened to me in the past.

43-45 resting heart rate is very low for any adult who isn't an elite long-distance runner. I also had low RHR in the past. Low RHR is common among people who have been on diets too low in carbs, prebiotics and/or calories for too long. See Ray Peat's info on this (ex: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hypothyroidism.shtml).

Have you had any other symptoms of LC torpor, like low basal temperature, cold extremities, lightheadedness after exertion, reduced sleep quality, dry skin, skin rash, high and rising FBG, high and rising LDL, low T3, ...? http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/zero-carb-dangers/

How did you run an EKG on yourself?

Quote
And then something fascinating happened: while eating all of those carbs, my nose started to run again, my stomach felt upset, and my throat became extremely sore.
FWIW, I get nose running, throat mucus and irritated throat from certain carby foods. Rather than avoid all carby foods forever, I tested a wide variety of them to find those that don't give me much in the way of these symptoms. I also looked into what might be the underlying cause(s) of my poor carb tolerance.

I don't currently eat a ZC carnivorous diet. When I did, I didn't get any colds, but I only did it for some months. I felt very good early on, but that turned out to be a misleading effect for the longer run. Technically, it wasn't truly ZC, as it was raw and I reintroduced organs after a month or two, IIRC. Fresh and frozen raw meats do contain some carbs and prebiotics, especially organs and connective tissues. I suspect that this is one reason that people who eat RAW animal food diets tend to fare better than those who eat thoroughly cooked animal food diets.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline eveheart

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,315
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
I don't quite know what to say because I understand that this is something that happened only once in six months of RPD. You sound like you've read enough information to know how to eat low carb - the "secret" of getting a variety of organs and enough fat - at any rate, if there were a problem like protein poisoning, you'd have a set of definitive symptoms.

As far as colds go, I've never been prone to catching cold. Again, if I got one cold, I wouldn't think too much about it.

Are you in a health-care profession? That might make you prone to running mental diagnostics. Personally, I try to "dumb myself down" about a lot of modern medical knowledge. Waiting for things to happen more than once has made it easier for me to notice valid trends, such as which foods make me have certain symptoms. That being said, I'm not a science-y person, so I might be missing something.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline aem42290

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Welcome, aem42290.That sounds much like a nocturnal panic attack, which happened to me in the past.
43-45 resting heart rate is very low for any adult who isn't an elite long-distance runner. I also had low RHR in the past. Low RHR is common among people who have been on diets too low in carbs, prebiotics and/or calories for too long. See Ray Peat's info on this (ex: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hypothyroidism.shtml).
Have you had any other symptoms of LC torpor, like low basal temperature, cold extremities, lightheadedness after exertion, reduced sleep quality, dry skin, skin rash, high and rising FBG, high and rising LDL, low T3, ...? http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/zero-carb-dangers/
How did you run an EKG on yourself?
Hey, Paleophil.
First off, thanks for your prompt response. I'll try to systematically answer/comment on your thoughts.
1. I question the notion that what I experienced was a panic attack. My disbelief here is justified by the elevated resting heart rate following the incident (an unnecessarily elevated resting heart rate that I am still dealing with.) I have dealt with panic attacks before while on the SAD, and I am rather aware of the symptoms that come attached to them (feelings of limited breathing, imminent death, heightened anxiety levels, etc.) I'm relatively convinced that this heart episode was something else entirely.
2. I agree that my RHR is low, but I don't consider this to be an indicator of any underlying problems. Rather, there are genetic factors involved in the RHR factor (my father has a low RHR, and my grandfather before him), and, further, I was, in fact, a sprinter for much of my undergrad college career. My heart has always been one of my healthiest features. Which makes all of this much more distressful. I ran the EKG on myself using a fully-functional personal EKG device that was gifted to me by an old med school mentor. His technology firm created the apparatus in late 2000s.
3. I have experienced only one other symptom of what you refer to as low carb torpor: cold extremities. My basal metabolic rate seems to be within acceptable limits, and my thyroid blood profile is very solid. I am, at least in the eyes of most knowledgeable people, in top-notch shape at this moment—and yet, my heart is still behaving erratically.
4. Berries seem to irritate my throat. As per your advice, I will look for other forms of carbs.
I don't quite know what to say because I understand that this is something that happened only once in six months of RPD. You sound like you've read enough information to know how to eat low carb - the "secret" of getting a variety of organs and enough fat - at any rate, if there were a problem like protein poisoning, you'd have a set of definitive symptoms.
As far as colds go, I've never been prone to catching cold. Again, if I got one cold, I wouldn't think too much about it.
Are you in a health-care profession? That might make you prone to running mental diagnostics. Personally, I try to "dumb myself down" about a lot of modern medical knowledge. Waiting for things to happen more than once has made it easier for me to notice valid trends, such as which foods make me have certain symptoms. That being said, I'm not a science-y person, so I might be missing something.
Thank you for responding, Eve.
1. You are wholly correct: I have researched the LC carnivorous diet extensively. I've been consuming moderately high fat amounts; watching my protein intake; eating a fair amount of fresh raw organs; and I have been selecting only the finest wild and grass-fed organic meats. To the best of my knowledge, I've done this experiment as well as is humanly possible.
2. Interesting that you have never caught a cold. I felt invincible while on this diet for most of my days, but following recent events, I stress that it is sometimes important to confront humbling experiences with a reflexive eye.
3. You called it. I was a med school student for three years. Although I am not currently in the healthcare world, I do have a substantial amount of medical knowledge (and the lofty burden of critical inquisitiveness that comes along.) I should probably put aside minor issues and wait for a repeat, but I am too cautious and observational to marginalize any physical ailments. ?

I will soon be creating another post where I address numerous conclusions that I've arrived at following my heart incident. I will address elements of the ZC/V-VLC carnivorous diet in detail.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
I suspect that a so-called "elevated" resting heart rate is usually good, rather than bad (up to a point and depending on individual context, of course), and that the conventional wisdom on this is mostly wrong.

As I understand it, sprinters tend to have higher RHR's than long-distance runners. This would explain why the RHR's of long distance runners are always quoted as the healthy example when the authorities talk about lower RHR being better. I have yet to see them cite a single sprinter's RHR. Suspicious eh? Even more suspicious, they ignore the fact that healthy people in their teens and twenties have higher RHR's than elderly folks. Why would I want the RHR of an eighty-year-old instead of a twenty-something?

What is your avg basal and mid-day temp (oral or armpit)? The extremities are the first part of the body to go cold from torpor, so if that's all that's cold, that's somewhat encouraging.

It's cool that you have your own EKG machine and it's comforting that you can rule that out as an issue.

When testing carby foods, I find it's a good idea not to do too many at once (preferably one at a time), to avoid overdosing and overlapping of effects.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Sure enough, recent confirmation from scientists:
Quote
Athletes beware - endurance training may make it more likely that you will need a pacemaker, scientists believe. ...

While normal adults have resting heart rates between 60-100 beats per minute, hearts of endurance athletes can beat only 30 times per minute or even less at night time when there can be long pauses between heart beats.

...it was assumed that the low heart rate of athletes was a result of the autonomic nervous system going into overdrive.

But Prof Mark Boyett and colleagues, from the University of Manchester, say their new research suggests this is not the case.

Instead, the heart's in-built pacemaker changes in response to training.

By studying mice, they found that endurance exercise led to a decrease in an important pacemaker protein, known as HCN4, and that this was responsible for the low heart rate.

Endurance exercise 'interferes with heart rhythm'
13 May 2014 Last updated at 19:02 ET
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-27389257
"Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute."
TSH, temperature, pulse rate, and other indicators in hypothyroidism
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hypothyroidism.shtml

Avg resting heart rates:

Newborn baby - 120 to 160
Baby aged from 1 to 12 months - 80 to 140
Baby/toddler aged from 1 to 2 years - 80 to 130
Toddler/young child aged 2 to 6 years - 75 to 120
Child aged 7 to 12 years - 75 to 110
Adult aged 18+ years - 60 to 100
Adult Males - about 72
Adult Females - 76 to 80
Elderly - 50 to 65
(Sources: http://www.ehow.com/about_5437544_normal-pulse-rate-elderly.html#ixzz2kyAkHc5N, http://www.exrx.net/Testing/HeartRate.html)

Unfortunately, many more LCers beyond aem42290 have reported shockingly low RHR's below 50 and have been misled into thinking it's healthy by misguided media and "experts" who were just repeating bogus assumptions. I was misled by them too until my RHR rose as my health improved and I investigated why this should be and found that the claims weren't based on good science and the evidence instead pointed in the opposite direction.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 11:13:09 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline aem42290

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
I suspect that a so-called "elevated" resting heart rate is usually good, rather than bad (up to a point and depending on individual context, of course), and that the conventional wisdom on this is mostly wrong.

What is your avg basal and mid-day temp (oral or armpit)? The extremities are the first part of the body to go cold from torpor, so if that's all that's cold, that's somewhat encouraging.


I probably should have been more skeptical of the conventional scientific knowledge concerning resting heart rates. I'm going to look into this. I'll research the subject at my university, ask some professors, read some texts at the library, etc. I'll report back with what I find. I'm going to try and trace the genealogy of this RHR question.

As of today, after adding some carbs back into my diet (consumed a sweet potato and berries after lifting at the gym), my RHR is up to 61. The evidence thus far corroborates your statements. My temperature at the moment is 96.7. That said, I've been dealing with low basal temps for as long as I can remember (which might simply indicate that my metabolism has been rather deranged for a long time.) I have never experienced any thyroid problems and/or serious metabolic problems (I've never been overweight, and have always been muscular/relatively healthy.

When did you start researching the RHR matter? What is your current RHR?

I find it compelling that newborns have a very high RHR. Perhaps the standard understanding of the matter (lower RHR means the heart needs to pump less) should be reversed; perhaps a faster RHR, within limits and taken in context, in fact indicates a certain level of fitness, and the capacity to beat harder and faster is reduced by dietary/physiological stressors.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Yes, you caught on much more quickly than most. Kudos.

When a human body doesn't get enough ready energy, due to either starvation or a diet that is chronically very low in either carbs or prebiotics (which feed our gut bacteria, which can then generate a steady supply of ready energy) or both, a couple of the early things it does are slow the heart and stop trying to keep the extremities warm. It focuses more on survival and descends into torpor/hibernation/starvation mode. Eventually it is not able to keep even the core warm, especially in the morning, after the glycogen energy supply has depleted overnight.

Your professors will probably simply parrot the conventional wisdom and dismiss the idea that the truth might be the opposite, or just not be interested, unless you've got some exceptional professors.

When science is screwed up, look for the profit motive. There are heavily prescribed drugs to lower blood pressure, whereas drugs are rarely prescribed for low blood pressure. As a matter of fact, one of the most common treatments of low blood pressure is to discontinue drugs that contribute to it. Therefore, the lower that drug companies can convince people that RHR should go, the more money they can make.

There is also a whole industry with a wide variety of products, services and events that grew up around the chronic long-distance-running fad that started in the 1970's. If people learned that chronic LD running tends to greatly lower RHR and that this is unhealthy, the losses would be enormous. Contrast that with sprinting. How many sprinting events draw enormous crowds besides the Summer Olympics and how many people buy sprinting shoes vs. running shoes?

96.7 F is rather low, even for a basal temp. Yes, it does indicate that your metabolism has been rather deranged for a long time, as have those of increasing numbers of moderners, and the capacity to beat harder and faster is indeed reduced by dietary/physiological stressors.

There is a good chance that you have suboptimal thyroid function without knowing it. Has your reverse T3 been tested? Drs. and professors generally aren't very interested in low thyroid either.

I had read Ray Peat and Danny Roddy (a former member here and friend of our own Lex Rooker) writing that higher RHR is better and that stuck with me, even though they didn't explain it much, because it was so opposite the conventional view. Even though they didn't give supportive evidence other than Ray's vague unreferenced claim that healthy people have higher RHR, I didn't dimiss it because I didn't find evidence to the contrary either, just the same claim that lower RHR is better repeated over and over again on the Internet. When I've come across CW like this that is repeated endlessly without strong evidence, I tend to find that it is wrong and that often the truth is the opposite or nearly so. People don't need to keep repeating mantras for something that is obviously true and experienced. Then when my RHR and body temp. rose after increasing my RS consumption (which Peat doesn't recommend, but he did say that he recommends doing anything that raises your body temp and RHR toward optimal levels), I looked into it more deeply.

I asked at a forum why higher RHR is better and someone at http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread91809-152.html#post1368506 pointed me to Albert Szent-Györgyi, whom Danny Roddy had also written about:
Quote from: Derpamix;1368506
Ray Peat likes to speculate a lot, and derives a lot of his scientific afflatus from Szent Gyorgyi and the staircase effect. Such as, faster repair of cells which would contribute to a longer lifespan, which is shown in those with a higher metabolism with which a faster heart rate can be a product of. Also, he uses resting pulse and body temperature to measure thyroid health ala Broda Barnes since adrenaline and circumambient temperature can both be altering factors in measurements of either one separately.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hypothyroidism.shtml
The staircase effect is also called the Bowditch effect. It involves the heart beating with more contractility (more strongly and effectively) the more frequently it beats.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Alive

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
    • View Profile
aem42290,
this could be the best of both worlds for you - allowing the consumption of healthy carbs and at the same time producing ketones for optimal brain function:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/02/ketogenic-diets-i-ways-to-make-a-diet-ketogenic/

Offline Inger

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 937
  • Gender: Female
  • 38 yo Norwegian RVAF s.-06, 90% carniv.
    • View Profile
I would say your issues are from dehydration? that is very common when cutting carbs...
You need to stay well dehydrated with spring or high quality well water, no fluoride or chloride.
A ketotic diet lacking plenty of water is no good idea

I drink at least 4 liter / day and I am 55 kg / 166 cm...

Also, avoid non native EMF, they are dehydrating you! Walk barefoot in the nature and avoid cities / limit cellphone use / WIFI

Do you eat seafood? This is VERY important.. to get DHA, seaweed is great too. You can soak dried seaweed and drink the water, I do that and love it!

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Here are some interesting different takes on water:

Quote
When people force themselves to drink a certain amount of water every day, even when they don't feel thirsty, they are activating complex adaptive processes unnecessarily. Thirst is the best guide to the amount of fluid needed.

When extra water consumption is combined with a low salt diet--as physicians have so often recommended--a healthy person can adapt easily, but for a hypothyroid person it can have disastrous effects.

Ray Peat, Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging, http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml
Quote
You need to drink only when you are thirsty.

The Paleolithic/Paleo/Caveman/Primal Diet Defined
paleodiet.com/definition.htm
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Quote
Thirst is the best guide to the amount of fluid needed.
Quote
You need to drink only when you are thirsty.

So obvious... I'm amazed it even has to be mentioned! 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline edmon171

  • Boar Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
I had a similar experience to this about three months ago, so I thought I would share. I had been ZC/carniviorous for about 5 years and vlc for 15 yrs prior, excluding some infrequent relapses. It had been over a year since I have been sick. There were some instances when I felt I had caught something, but never got sick. It just sort of went away, which is interesting because you mentioned something about quarantining infections and not dealing with them in ketosis. I've never heard of that, but it may explain the phenomenon. i was just assuming my immune system was stronger in ketosis and able to knock it down before it became systemic.

Anyway, one day I had shut down my ketosis after celebrating with some friends out for dinner with some sugary cocktails and desserts. I decided to speed up my return to ketosis by jumping straight into a 4-day water fast the next day. Big mistake. Apparently this fasting exaggerates the temporary immune system shutdown that occurs when transitioning into ketosis from carb metabolism and I caught something on day 2 of the fast, probably at school. By day 3 I had a high fever up to about 105 and tachycardia. The likes of which I had never seen. No other symptoms really, just runny nose. it was just staying at about 190-195 bpm and normal for me is 70-75. The next day I decided to try some peppermint herbal tea, another big mistake. This triggered some sort of allergic reaction when it hit my fasted stomach and it became difficult to breath and I was wheezing. Coincidentally I had a physical scheduled for the same day so I went to the doctor.

They said my ekg was abnormal and they tried to hospitalize me for observation and further testing. I refused to go, for fear of radiation exposure and worse infections. They also said my LDL was extremely high and HDL was low, though my triglycerides were excellent and I had no sign of blood clotting. Also my ketones were very high. A good report if you ask me, but they tried to give me statins nonetheless. Of course that was refused as well. I opted to do my further testing at the doc's office after i was over the cold because I was sure the ekg problem was caused by my breathing difficulty, not any underlying problem.

I did the halter-monitor and the stress-ekg, both of which were now normal. I refused the echo-cardiogram because I had read a study in which they were using ultrasound as a contraceptive and were able to sterilize mice for 6 months with just two exposures of 20 minutes. For all I know, the test could be creating arrhythmias much like how the cat-scan could trigger cancer. I recently heard of someone who was otherwise healthy and went to have an mri for back pain and the machine triggered a fatal heart attack.

I didn't eat any carbs but I did break the fast early and started eating after leaving the doctors office but the tach. and fever lasted another day or so. My theory about the strange infection was that we are constantly being experimented on and the people who take flu-shots are being used to spread new infections for testing every year. I am intrigued by this concept of quarantining infections on vlc/zc, it would seem to fit with the timing. Like as soon as I ended the ketosis, some infection I had caught months earlier and never dealt with suddenly came to the surface and triggered the fever.
 
Could you reference where you heard about this?

This experience was part of my motivation for trying rzc, but I had been eyeing these forums for a while before that. I was consuming large amounts of cooked animal fats and cholesterol and I was interested in how switching to raw would affect my cholesterol numbers. I should have the results of this experiment in another week or two with a VAP cholesterol test.
My basic health philosophy:

1. If it is advertized on TV, don't touch it.
2. If it is recommended in the news, do the opposite.
3. If it makes most people afraid, it might be good for you.

Offline aem42290

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
I had a similar experience to this about three months ago, so I thought I would share. I had been ZC/carniviorous for about 5 years and vlc for 15 yrs prior, excluding some infrequent relapses. It had been over a year since I have been sick. There were some instances when I felt I had caught something, but never got sick. It just sort of went away, which is interesting because you mentioned something about quarantining infections and not dealing with them in ketosis. I've never heard of that, but it may explain the phenomenon. i was just assuming my immune system was stronger in ketosis and able to knock it down before it became systemic.

I'm really glad to hear from you, Edmon. Regrettably, I don't have any references for the theory regarding the quarantining and managing of infections on a RZC diet. I recently arrived at this hypothesis by studying my own reactions (and my partner's, for she was on RZC as well) to infections on the ketogenic diet, and by marshaling scientific knowledge to make sense of such reactions.

I've been delving into the literature that deals with immunological responses to infections while in ketosis, but there is a pathetic amount of research on the subject--as is to be expected. My thoughts at this moment are that there are a few factors which contribute to the seemingly heightened immunological faculties of the human body on a RZC diet:

1) The large amounts of fat consumed while in ketosis, combined with decreased spikes in blood glucose, may create a metabolic environment that is directly toxic to infectious entities. Lauric acid and other medium-chain and long-chain fatty acids have consistently exhibited anti-microbial properties in laboratory experiments.
Ketones may also play a role in the 'poisoning' of invading pathogens, albeit I'm not certain about this just yet.

2) A decrease in the amount of beneficial bacteria in the gut flora may contribute to the body's reluctance to mount a full-fledged immune response to infections. This point is to be taken seriously only if we believe that the prebiotic-starved ketogenic gut flora is indeed less effective at modulating bodily functions than the well-fed and properly managed gut-flora of a raw paleo VLC/LCer. Most immune responses begin with bacterial 'conversations' that take place in the gut. To quote Dr. Schulzenko (although I should stress that I do not agree with all of his theories): "The human gut plays a huge role in immune function. This is little appreciated by people who think its only role is digestion. The combined number of genes in the microbiota genome is 150 times larger than the person in which they reside. They do help us digest food, but they do a lot more than that."

The second point, taken in tandem with the first, speaks to the potential reason why immune systems appear to be stronger while in ZC deep ketosis.  While on the one hand, the body's defenses are indeed strengthened by the presence of free fatty acids, as well as by the scarcity of an excessive amount of blood glucose, and (possibly) even by the presence of ketone bodies--on the other hand, the immunological structures of the ketogenic gut flora may not be active enough to openly declare an attack on an infectious pathogen. Curiously, white blood cells continue to reproduce and, according to my blood tests, thrive while in ZC ketosis. But the targeting systems that control the directionality of white blood cells may not be functioning properly. It is as if a ZC ketogenic body possesses all of the proper accouterments to swiftly deal with an invading force, but remains incapable of adequately channeling its resources--much as a typical army without its general.   

As for the heart issues, it could be that the tachycardia is related to the ketogenic body's attempts at mobilizing an uncommonly utilized mechanism for dealing with illnesses: literally, mechanically filtering the blood through lymphatic nodes at a phenomenally high rate to expose the illness to immune cells that have been concentrated at particular points. In effect, rather than launching a full-scale assault on the pathogens, the body concentrates WBCs at critical points (lymph nodes) and proceeds to deter the invaders by increasing the effectiveness of the immunological system.

Of course, these are just informed speculations, and I'd be curious to hear your take on all of these ideas.

Edmon, it's interesting that we went at each other on the other thread (which, by the way--yes, I would like to continue our other discussion in a more gentlemanly manner), considering that we are both seemingly well-aware of the RZC diet's therapeutic value, as well as the pharmaceutical industry's interests in proliferating curious medicalizing discourses/practices. Although I have written against the use-value of a ZC diet for long-term health, I am not so naive as to dispute the fascinating therapeutic (and anti-therapeutic) properties of the diet. 

Quote
  My theory about the strange infection was that we are constantly being experimented on and the people who take flu-shots are being used to spread new infections for testing every year.

Can you tell me more about your take on this? I avoid flu-shots like the plague, and I have a similar perspective, but I'd like to hear your course of logic.

Offline edmon171

  • Boar Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
About the lack of a full immune response with fever: If this really is the case I would guess it may be a sort of survival mechanism to prevent overstressing the body with loss of fluids and increased thermogenic fat loss during prolonged fasting or starvation.

With the flu-shots, a couple things lead me to this position. I have noticed and heard the same observation from others that the ones who get the flu shots are usually the first ones to get sick or catch a cold. I know they say this is a common "immune reaction" from the live attenuated virus and is normal, but I'm not sure if I really buy that. I also find it suspicious that there needs to be a new one every year when the other dozens of vaccines given are either given just once or boosted after several years. If I were an evil scientist, I would think the perfect delivery route to test genetic manipulations and infections on the population would be through flu-shots. They are all documented and tracable down to the exact vial a patient received a shot from. It would be a simple matter to check someones medical records a few months down the line and cross-reference it with the flu-shot they received to conduct a covert study. How is an inspector to tell the difference between a "live attenuated" virus and a live virus? We have to assume that the attenuation process went smoothly. If they were to alter the genetic code of the virus, and insert live ones mixed into the vial, nobody would be able to tell without doing a pcr test on the vial. Even if someone went to the trouble to do this, the pharmaceutical company just says "oops," recalls the shot that was discovered for contamination from unknown source, and nobody is the wiser. The way I see things, if there is an opportunity for someone to take advantage of a system for a profit or benefit, then you have to assume somebody is doing just that. Even if I am just being very paranoid, and none of this is really happening, I would still not take a vaccine ever again just for the poisons they admit are in there.
My basic health philosophy:

1. If it is advertized on TV, don't touch it.
2. If it is recommended in the news, do the opposite.
3. If it makes most people afraid, it might be good for you.

Offline 24isours

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
How is your salt intake?
Do you get enough Vitamin D?
If you workout a lot you may need more water.
Are you eating enough?
Do you eat thyroid? If not, do you have a dietary source of iodine?
3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline colorles

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Sure enough, recent confirmation from scientists:"Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute."
TSH, temperature, pulse rate, and other indicators in hypothyroidism
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hypothyroidism.shtml

Avg resting heart rates:

Newborn baby - 120 to 160
Baby aged from 1 to 12 months - 80 to 140
Baby/toddler aged from 1 to 2 years - 80 to 130
Toddler/young child aged 2 to 6 years - 75 to 120
Child aged 7 to 12 years - 75 to 110
Adult aged 18+ years - 60 to 100
Adult Males - about 72
Adult Females - 76 to 80
Elderly - 50 to 65
(Sources: http://www.ehow.com/about_5437544_normal-pulse-rate-elderly.html#ixzz2kyAkHc5N, http://www.exrx.net/Testing/HeartRate.html)

Unfortunately, many more LCers beyond aem42290 have reported shockingly low RHR's below 50 and have been misled into thinking it's healthy by misguided media and "experts" who were just repeating bogus assumptions. I was misled by them too until my RHR rose as my health improved and I investigated why this should be and found that the claims weren't based on good science and the evidence instead pointed in the opposite direction.

well with heart rate its all about finding a balance: a healthy balance. i've seen my resting heart rate vary quite a bit over the years, no doubt varying with the differing kinds of physical activities i've done over the years. weight training/spirinting will raise your resting heart rate, while endurance training will lower it. hence the conclusion that cross training is ideal

cross training, is the closest physical representation of what paleo hunters would have lived. moderate/healthy crosstraining, combined with a natural raw diet...what more can you ask for? and with this lifestyle you'll likely come out of it with a moderate resting heart rate. wouldn't you say that such is ideal?

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
That fits well with what I wrote, though it's harder to say what is ideal than what is bad. A RHR of 50 in a young adult who isn't an elite endurance athlete seems pretty clearly to be too low. Most would agree that 140 in an adult is too high, though it is fine in a newborn baby. Whether a moderate number like 85 is truly an ideal avg for most adults is less clear, but it is plausible.

I too noted months ago in another forum* that I think a mix of exercise types is probably best, rather than just marathon running or just sprinting, and it fits with the concepts I often talk about, like intermittency, avoiding excessively chronic behaviors, fractals, hormesis, and dose-response. I don't see it as a completely binary either-or choice.

Ray Peat claims that a higher metabolism (presumably up to a certain point) enables more repair/autophagy, and some clues seem to support that. In addition to the link between low RHR, aging and stress, there's this example amongst the youngest, who have the highest avg RHR's:

"In childhood, wounds heal quickly, and inflammation is quickly resolved; in extreme old age, or during extreme stress or starvation, wound healing is much slower, and the nature of the inflammation and wound closure is different. In the fetus, healing can be regenerative and scarless, for example allowing a cleft palate to be surgically corrected without scars (Weinzweig, et al., 2002)." http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/regeneration-degeneration.shtml


*The other forum is another clue that chronic VLC carnivore is not ideal in the long run. The name of the forum used to be "Dirty Carnivore," but the balance of the reports from members who followed "carnivore" diets was so negative that the owner changed the name to Better Health Clue and upped the carbs in her own diet. Talk about a strong clue about better health.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 10:06:18 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Alive

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
    • View Profile
In 'The Perfect Health Diet' book chapter on fasting Paul Jaminet says in study of famine victims who had lost 25% of body weight and were then given unlimited food, only 4.9% had detectable infections when re-feeding began, but after 2 weeks this shot up to 29.1%.

The conclusion was that severe under-nutrition can suppress certain infections, mostly from intracellular pathogens, but that re-feeding reactivates the suppressed infection and can increase vulnerability to some new infections, especially viruses.

Offline Alive

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
    • View Profile
Regarding resting heart rate the figures provided are for cooked people and need not apply to raw folks.

Here are some examples from my many raw vegan phases:

I injured myself and the doctors were amazed at my low resting heart rate of 46 bpm. I remember reading one of Leslie Kentons books about 30 years ago where she showed photos of blood platelets sticking together due to fat consumption and this making the blood thicker. It may be that a diet high in raw plant matter makes the blood flow more easily and therefore needing less effort to pump around.

Out running with a friend and was amazed at how fast I could run without becoming short of breath.

I ran flat out for a mile and then met up with a friend and was able to almost immediately catch my breath and start talking.

My gym instructor was very disappointed that my VO2 max test results were higher than his.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Don't forget that healthy newborns fed raw breast milk, nature's food for infants, have RHR's in the range of 120 to 160 and have amazing regenerative abilities, whereas the elderly have RHR's in the range of 50 to 65 and gradually degenerate.

Of course, small size is also a factor in the high RHR's of infants, but notice that the RHR's of healthy older, larger youths and middle-aged adults are also higher than those of the elderly:

Child aged 7 to 12 years - 75 to 110
Adult aged 18+ years - 60 to 100
Adult aged 18+ years - 60 to 100
Adult Males - about 72
Adult Females - 76 to 80
Elderly - 50 to 65

Chronic under-nutrition is also a cause of low RHR. http://www.ehow.com/about_5076516_causes-low-pulse-rate.html
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 01:10:24 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Alive

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
    • View Profile
Yes I was malnourished, after a night beach run and cold sea swim I would go to bed freezing and not warm up without a hot shower (should have done them in the opposite order!)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 05:10:20 am by alive »

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Quote
"conditions as diverse as obesity, diabetes, and senescence are associated with lower-than-normal diet-induced thermogenesis. [Tappy, L, and Je´quier, E. Fructose and dietary thermogenesis. Am J Clin Nutr. 1993 Nov;58(5 Suppl):766S-770S]

The [resulting] intolerance to cold is often disregarded, yet seems to be highly common among people, especially among women.

...

The pulse rate, another self-diagnostic tool that complements the body temperature, reflects the rate at which the heart is pumping blood, oxygen, and nutrients to cells throughout the body. While many physicians subscribe to [the] idea that “lower is better,” they tend to justify this theory using athletes as shining examples. Besides the fact that it is not uncommon for athletes to spontaneously drop dead, a lower pulse rate is suggestive of reduced blood flow, which, in effect, limits the rate at which cells can generate energy. Similar to the body temperature, there are some caveats to a higher pulse rate. In stress, the pulse rate can be maintained by adrenaline, sometimes elevating the pulse rate to over 100 beats per minute (BPM). Instead of feeling pleasant, elevated adrenaline causes anxiety and poor sleep. In all, a pulse rate of about 85 BPM and body temperature of about 98.6 degrees are suggestive of high rates of efficient energy production, rather than a metabolism maintained by the stress hormones."

http://www.dannyroddy.com/06-14
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk