Author Topic: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy  (Read 28729 times)

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Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2010, 03:01:42 am »

 Not specifically re raw milk but there are studies linking dairy-consumption to osteoporosis. As regards raw milk, it's complicated as people experience a very wide variety of symptoms, with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc.

My reason for citing the brittle bones issue re raw dairy is that it was openly admitted by some long-term Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet yahoo group that they deliberately ate magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency. These were people who did fine with raw dairy as regards having no allergies. Plus, a sizeable proportion of those who do badly on raw dairy have issues re teeth etc. Can't be sure re exact estimates as no real count has been made of RVAFers in general etc.  Once one includes both those who do badly on raw dairy plus all those who lie to themselves and pretend that issues with raw dairy are solely due to "detox", the figures become even higher.
[/quote]

What studies? Were they raw milk consumers?

Sounds like you are talking about people who are 100% raw milk in other words nothing else in the diet.

Mt teeth are fine since I started on raw milk and indeed I think you will find that a large portion of people eating any diet have dental problems, otherwise dentists would be outta luck.

Not sure what you mean by detox but that word is used quite frequently to disguise everything from a hangover to some of the absurd dietary notions that people try.

Not mere  propaganda, it is a simple fact that raw dairy is THE food most commonly reported by RVAFers as causing minor to life-threatening health-problems.

If I told ya once I told ya a million times... quit exaggerating.

Tyler you give the same statements dressed up in slightly different words on all your milk rags.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2010, 03:12:27 am »

What studies? Were they raw milk consumers?

No, the studies referred to pasteurised dairy-consumers. However, that is irrelevant, as the reason for the issues cited is primarily blamed on the excessive calcium content present in dairy - since calcium is present in raw dairy too, it is also an issue(arguably, since the calcium in raw dairy would be more absorbable by the body, raw dairy should cause slightly worse problems re osteoporosis in this regard).

Quote
Sounds like you are talking about people who are 100% raw milk in other words nothing else in the diet.
Rubbish, these people consume plenty of raw meats too.


Quote
Not sure what you mean by detox but that word is used quite frequently to disguise everything from a hangover to some of the absurd dietary notions that people try.
  In this case, when people refer to always getting negative symptoms whenever they consume a particular food(raw dairy in this case) and don't get those same levels of symptoms at other times, it's pretty clear they are deluded and are experiencing allergies/food-intolerance towards raw dairy.

Quote
If I told ya once I told ya a million times... quit exaggerating.

Tyler you give the same statements dressed up in slightly different words on all your milk rags.
I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely  an exaggeration. Check up all the various complaints re raw diets on the various RVAF diet groups over the years, and you will find, again and again, as I did, that THE most commonly reported problems on a RVAF diet are health-issues incurred from raw-dairy-consumption.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2010, 08:58:57 am »
No, the studies referred to pasteurised dairy-consumers. However, that is irrelevant, as the reason for the issues cited is primarily blamed on the excessive calcium content present in dairy - since calcium is present in raw dairy too, it is also an issue(arguably, since the calcium in raw dairy would be more absorbable by the body, raw dairy should cause slightly worse problems re osteoporosis in this regard).
 Rubbish, these people consume plenty of raw meats too.

  In this case, when people refer to always getting negative symptoms whenever they consume a particular food(raw dairy in this case) and don't get those same levels of symptoms at other times, it's pretty clear they are deluded and are experiencing allergies/food-intolerance towards raw dairy.
 I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely  an exaggeration. Check up all the various complaints re raw diets on the various RVAF diet groups over the years, and you will find, again and again, as I did, that THE most commonly reported problems on a RVAF diet are health-issues incurred from raw-dairy-consumption.

Tyler,
Para 1. Still no proof of the statement of how raw milk has caused bone brittleness. A pattern has developed. Big statement, no proof, then jump to the next subject. This has the earmarks of Pure Vata prattling.

http://harmonyhealth.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/floride-does-not-reduce-cavities-and-does-causes-brittle-bones-and-a-soft-brain/
http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/torontostar.html
http://www.health-science.com/fluoride_toxicity.html
http://info-wars.org/2010/08/09/eu-study-on-water-fluoridation-lacking-important-detail/

I suspect these may be a more accurate assessment of why bones become brittle particularly in the elderly, than the wild, unsubstantiated milk theory.

Para2. Somehow these as of yet unknown, possibly non-existent persons who had all the huge issues with magnesium deficiencies were not consuming large quantities of milk, but now the claim is that they were eating "plenty of raw meats too". So now I take that to mean that raw meat is also deficient in magnesium since they were eating plenty of it and had this huge deficiency that forced them to eat "magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency." (as stated).

"with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc."

Another off the wall statement: "hormonal problems". This is also scientifically studied and there is an assumption that there will be some provision of proof for the readers.

"I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely  an exaggeration".
Nothing resembling a fact has been provided. I have read the arguments supplied on a number of topics that demonstrate precious little knowledge or proof of and the milk tirade is yet another... Yawn.
Cheers
Al

Offline cliff

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2010, 09:32:25 am »
The so-called studies also implicate meat most the time as they blame the problem on excess protien.

According to one study the reason is because the calcium in dairy is only 30% absorb-able.

Either way these studies are done on SAD food eaters and they are just correlations.  Correlations don't equal causation's.


Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2010, 10:05:49 am »
The so-called studies also implicate meat most the time as they blame the problem on excess protien.
According to one study the reason is because the calcium in dairy is only 30% absorb-able.
Either way these studies are done on SAD food eaters and they are just correlations.  Correlations don't equal causation's.
Interesting Cliff, this follows along with the Ayurvedic model which clearly says that just because you eat something doesn't mean that it is automatically digested and assimilated and that it goes to the appropriate place.

The multitude of Ayurvedci food-combining rules associated with milk preclude combining meat, vegetable and fruit consumption with it. This isn't something that some old guys 2000 years ago dreamed up, it's just a physical reality.

It is also well known that drinking milk straight out of the fridge like countless TV billboard ads show is a recipe for severe reactions. These reactions can lead to allergenic reactions particularly if the person has a poor immune system in the first place. Milk is meant to be eaten much the way Aajonus says, warm.

This does not mean that everyone should drink milk. Just that some (I suspect the vast majority) of the people who have issues with it are having issues associated with how they drink it.

Remember that milk comes from the teat of a cow. The calf has to suck to get it. This sucking draws saliva out of the glands in the top of the mouth and mixes the saliva with the milk to predigest the sugars and it is not likely that the calf would be having other foods at the same time. The milk is body temperature, not refrigerator temperature.

Making it into kefir changes the fundamental attributes of milk into something entirely different. The one thing that is missing here for I suspect more people is that kefir and yogurt and other fermented milk products can be difficult to digest also and consuming these in the evening after 6 PM will cause digestive difficulties and even bad dreams, because it is hard to digest. I notice that people make a ton of the stuff or they buy it from the health food store where it is God only knows how old, probably pasteurized and they stuff it in the fridge. It solidifies in there and the molecules bind together like glue and indeed I believe certain paints are made from milk.

So when they go to eat the stuff it is cold and so dense that it will not digest. It's as useless as eating ice cream.
Cheers
Al

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2010, 10:26:23 am »
I think it is either milk works for you or not.

I did my honest to goodness experiments with raw milk, tried really hard, warm milk, milk with liver, milk with raw eggs, whatever milk I get in the Philippines it just does not work for me.

Now there are people where they find a raw milk that works for them.  I say congratulations.  This is why we have Primal Diet and Weston price forum sections here.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2010, 10:55:09 am »
Tyler,
Para 1. Still no proof of the statement of how raw milk has caused bone brittleness. A pattern has developed. Big statement, no proof, then jump to the next subject. ....
Well observed, Al. While I think that the burden of proof lies with those who would add complexity to our biological heritage by recommending that others add dairy as a staple food source to a Paleo-type diet, I have also noticed certain related tendencies in Tyler's tactics re: anti-dairy fanaticism and other of cherished beliefs:

> When extreme claims are revealed to be poorly-supported and unscientific opinions and one doesn't have a good response, just change the subject.
> Conflate similar but different phenomena to confuse and mislead. For example, use results of studies on pasteurized dairy as allegedly irrefutable evidence against raw dairy and just dismiss skepticism re: this.
>  When you can't refute the other person's points, create straw men and set about refuting them instead.

If you press him he will eventually provide some scientific sources, however, which can be a useful result of an often tedious process. Ironically, the sources he provides often support his opponent's views rather than his. I and others have guessed that he often may not read more than the abstracts of the studies he cites or the title and first few paragraphs of the articles he links to.

I like to test my speculations and hypotheses by trying to refute them myself, so it's useful to have people who already know some of the common counterarguments and can provide some sources for me to access, and once in a while I even agree with Tyler, such as on the likely sub-optimal nature of dairy foods as compared to raw animal body fats like suet, marrow, brains and subcutaneous fat from wild or pastured animals (though his view is much more extreme than mine).
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2010, 11:21:35 am »
Well said Phil, my observations are in line with yours.
Sometimes I look at what will I gain from arguing.... Less than nothing. The trouble of course is that I know that people read this stuff and take some of the claims seriously.

There seems to be copious quantities of nonsense spouted off in this forum and the trouble is that people probably including myself make wild and crazy statements about things that they really ought not to.

I cringe at some of the questions here. There seems to be a notion that everybody's body is the same. It is not even remotely true. One man's meat truly is another's poison. An Ayurvedic physician that I know told me of one girl he treated that needed (the healing effect of) ghee so badly for a chronic issue she had that she could down a cup or more of ghee at one sitting. I love ghee and butter dearly, but I'd be making long distance calls on the big porcelain telephone if I had that much. ;) ;D

Milk is like every other food, it is good for some not for others. Same thing with everything. My friend thrives on hot chilies. I'd end up in the "Emergency ward" if I ate what he eats at a meal.

To me this is supposed to be a forum like the old Roman public meeting place where discussion is backed up with facts as you said.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2010, 04:53:12 pm »
Tyler,
Para 1. Still no proof of the statement of how raw milk has caused bone brittleness. A pattern has developed. Big statement, no proof, then jump to the next subject. This has the earmarks of Pure Vata prattling.

http://harmonyhealth.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/floride-does-not-reduce-cavities-and-does-causes-brittle-bones-and-a-soft-brain/
http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/torontostar.html
http://www.health-science.com/fluoride_toxicity.html
http://info-wars.org/2010/08/09/eu-study-on-water-fluoridation-lacking-important-detail/

I suspect these may be a more accurate assessment of why bones become brittle particularly in the elderly, than the wild, unsubstantiated milk theory.

Nonsense, since only some of the areas in the developed world have fluoridated tapwater. As for studies on raw milk, they are few and far between since hardly anyone consumes raw milk nowadays - but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence , of course, and  studies re pasteurised milk are useful provided they focus on characteristics in pasteurised milk which are also present in raw milk. 1 or 2 of those studies focus on the benefits of raw milk as opposed to pasteurised milk(in terms of lower rates ofew raw milk studies focus on the benefits of asthma) and the like). Most such studies however focus on the negative aspects of raw milk, such as the increased rate of infections/epidemics caused by raw milk. Apparently, raw milk is an easy carrier for viruses etc.

Quote
Para2. Somehow these as of yet unknown, possibly non-existent persons who had all the huge issues with magnesium deficiencies were not consuming large quantities of milk, but now the claim is that they were eating "plenty of raw meats too". So now I take that to mean that raw meat is also deficient in magnesium since they were eating plenty of it and had this huge deficiency that forced them to eat "magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency." (as stated).

This is such an obviously deliberate misrepresentation of what I said, that this is absolutely laughable as an attempt. I did NOT suggest that the magnesium-deficiencies had anything whatsoever to do with raw meats, but solely to do with relatively sizeable amounts of raw dairy, as a number of people who reported such magnesium-deficiencies had Primal Diets involving lots of raw meats as well as lots of raw dairy. It was only you who made the ridiculous, decidedly false assumption that magnesium-deficiency could only be caused by a 100% raw milk diet.

Quote
"with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc."

Another off the wall statement: "hormonal problems". This is also scientifically studied and there is an assumption that there will be some provision of proof for the readers.

Not off the wall, at all. It is a matter of record that the hormones in milk have been directly implicated in causing various cancers:-

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

Quote
"I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely  an exaggeration".
Nothing resembling a fact has been provided. I have read the arguments supplied on a number of topics that demonstrate precious little knowledge or proof of and the milk tirade is yet another... Yawn.
Well, I will excuse your ignorance since, given the above statement, you simply cannot have read anywhere near as many online reports of RVAFers as I have, or you would have been aware of the countless examples of problems with raw dairy routinely reported on the various forums. Simply put, again and again, problems with raw dairy are the biggest problems reported on RVAF diet forums. You tried to equivocate by citing problems with raw meats as an example, but the fact is that problems with raw meats are far lower in incidence than problems with raw dairy.

One only has to look at the zero-carbers - most of them report issues with raw dairy, and that's just 1 faction here.

More to the point, it's a bit absurd to denounce here those who criticise raw dairy, as 1 of the primary reasons why people join rawpaleoforum in the first place is because they couldn't tolerate raw dairy in some way. Of course, to eventually come to realise this fact, you would have to read every post on this forum since its inception(which is what I have done so far).

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2010, 06:05:24 pm »
It is also well known that drinking milk straight out of the fridge like countless TV billboard ads show is a recipe for severe reactions. These reactions can lead to allergenic reactions particularly if the person has a poor immune system in the first place. Milk is meant to be eaten much the way Aajonus says, warm.

This does not mean that everyone should drink milk. Just that some (I suspect the vast majority) of the people who have issues with it are having issues associated with how they drink it.

The above is just a foolish urban myth claimed by Aajonus. I and many others have tried such ridiculous notions along with putting raw honey in the raw milk and similiar balderdash, and they never worked once. When one examines the notion closely, it's easy to see why it is an absurd idea. First of all, there are plenty of major reasons why people are allergic to raw dairy such as lactose-intolerance/casein-intolerance, issues with the excessive hormones in raw dairy etc.These issues have nothing whatsoever to do with the temperature of the raw milk.  Also, once the cold raw milk entered the lower stomach, after a set time in the upper stomach, it would be as warm as the rest of the body, so temperature could not be an issue re digestion.

Well, this is the Primal Diet forum so , I suppose it's to be expected that pro-raw-dairy fanaticism would be present here.

Oh, and incidentally, Ayurveda is so ridiculously non-rawpalaeo, it's absurd. "Hot and cold" foods - honestly. It's as bad as Chinese Medicine re poor credibility.


As for PP's spurious claims, they are motivated by numerous previous discussions where I, very scientifically, debunked his notions re Noble Savagery , the supposedly "healthy" French, Kurt Harris etc. etc. etc. Just sour grapes on his part.   l)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 06:17:10 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2010, 12:08:06 am »
Oh, and incidentally, Ayurveda is so ridiculously non-rawpalaeo, it's absurd. "Hot and cold" foods - honestly. It's as bad as Chinese Medicine re poor credibility.
Neither are your shoes and your computer and the wiring in your house and indeed your apartment/city/country  ;)
Cheers
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Offline Michael

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2010, 03:39:08 am »
As always, I'll refrain from participating in the argument.  But, I will note for the record my own experiences with dairy.

In my youth and until my mid 20s I consumed voluminous quantities of pasteurised poor quality dairy - icecreams, milk, cheese etc.  I only really started getting observable problems with it in my mid 20s at the same time as the beginnings of other problems.  Since then I've had periods of consuming the highest quality butter, milk, yoghurt, cream available (organic, grass-fed, A2, home kefir'd etc).  I still have issues with it myself.  I can get away with the odd piece of unpasteurised goat or ewe cheese but it's generally not worth the bother.  However, my recent reintroduction of raw, grass-fed jersey butter seems not to have caused any problems.  Of course, it's sometimes difficult if not impossible to recognise problems until they become major issues but it feels ok to me so far.

My partner, on the other hand, seems to have no issues with dairy at all.  My influence has meant that the limited milk she drinks is raw, organic, grass-fed etc as is the cream and butter.  Most of the cheese she eats is unpasteurised but not always.  She has no problems with it and appears in good, strong health (probably better health than I following my ill health history).

I'm still open-minded about the possibilities of dairy products as part of a human diet under certain circumstances.  Of course, it's not paleo but any attempt at pure emulation of our perceived view of such is always going to be futile.  I think Dr Harris makes many good points on the subject.

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2010, 11:28:06 am »
There seems to be a notion that everybody's body is the same.
Yes and this is not uncommon. I've seen it in every diet and heatlh forum I've perused that had a substantial number of posts. Many people who experience a dramatic rejuvenation after changing a certain variable like diet quickly become convinced that the same formula will help everyone and develop an urge to save the world by proseletyzing it.

Quote
One man's meat truly is another's poison. An Ayurvedic physician that I know told me of one girl he treated that needed (the healing effect of) ghee so badly for a chronic issue she had that she could down a cup or more of ghee at one sitting. I love ghee and butter dearly, but I'd be making long distance calls on the big porcelain telephone if I had that much. ;) ;D
Yes, to further prove that point, when I consumed about a 1/3 cup of warmed ghee once it didn't loosen my bowels in the slightest but it did give me stomach gas with belching, nausea, headache, full-body malaise, mental fog, restless sleep and a nightmare that woke me up around 4 am. In contrast, I can eat 2 or 3 cups of raw 100% grassfed suet with nothing more than a few mild burps and large amounts of raw supermarket marrow with no negative symptoms at all (though I don't care for the taste of supermarket marrow--but I add spice to make it palatable for me). As a matter of fact, the more grassfed suet I eat the better I feel--which is the opposite of my experience with ghee.

Quote
Milk is like every other food...
That goes further than I would. I don't think that every food is equal, but I accept that your reports that you handle milk well.

Quote
To me this is supposed to be a forum like the old Roman public meeting place where discussion is backed up with facts as you said.
That's pretty rare in Internet forums. They are generally more dominated by speculative opinions, extrapolations and emotion. I'll bet that speculation and emotion existed even in the Roman senate. Speculation has its place, but I agree that ideally it shouldn't dominate.

.... I've had periods of consuming the highest quality butter, milk, yoghurt, cream available (organic, grass-fed, A2, home kefir'd etc).  I still have issues with it myself.  I can get away with the odd piece of unpasteurised goat or ewe cheese but it's generally not worth the bother.  However, my recent reintroduction of raw, grass-fed jersey butter seems not to have caused any problems.  Of course, it's sometimes difficult if not impossible to recognise problems until they become major issues but it feels ok to me so far.

.... I'm still open-minded about the possibilities of dairy products as part of a human diet under certain circumstances.  Of course, it's not paleo but any attempt at pure emulation of our perceived view of such is always going to be futile.  ....
I see taking into consideration what was eaten going back millions of years in the past not as necessarily blind emulation, but instead it can mean just taking advantage of useful clues from evolutionary biology and not casually dismissing millions of years of human and hominid experience.

I accept the claims of dairy proponents that they handle it well, but it's interesting that you, Tyler and me all have issues with most or all forms of dairy, even the ones that dairy-eating Paleo and Primal dieters advocate. I want to believe them that the dairy will only be beneficial for me, it would add another source of fat I could eat, but I unfortunately don't find that to be true in my case, for whatever reasons. That some dairy advocates apparently then accuse people like us of not eating dairy or dairy fat just because of emulation doesn't seem scientific to me. It is true that some Paleo dieters appear to make the mistake of assuming that anything not eaten in the past must be really bad, so I can understand how someone could make the mistaken assumption that all Paleos who avoid dairy do so merely because of emulation. I see what our ancestors ate going back millions of years as an important clue, not an absolute guarantee that a food is poison. For that matter, I try to avoid positing absolutes in general.

There are a couple other interesting cases within the online dieting community to add to yours, Tyler's and mine. Paleo fitness expert Robb Wolf reported that his friend, Paleo diet advocate and former pro football player John Wellborne, was so adamantly pro-pastured-dairy that he almost came to blows with Loren Cordain over it. Yet, when John eventually tried eliminating dairy from his diet he experienced improvements like better lipid, blood glucose, and triglyceride numbers. Since John's improvements and similar reports from other Paleo dieters, and recent studies suggesting links between dairy and cancer, Robb Wolf said he "is getting more and more nervous about recommending [dairy], even [from] grassfed sources." (Source: Robb Wolf Offers 'The Paleolithic Solution' To Obesity And Disease, Interview by Jimmy Moore of Livin' La Vida Low Carb)

Even raw grassfed milk can turn out to be a problem for people who thought they handled dairy fine. Matt Stone seems to be the popular diet guru of the moment. Here's Matt's raw "Milk Diet Fail" story:

"On the 26th day of the milk diet I started having some gastrointestinal issues. I woke up and fasted for most of the day on the 27th, bent over in pain and pooping every 30 minutes. By the end of the day, the last thing in the world I was wanting to do was drink more m'f'in milk. Boo to the Moo.

Couple this with the fact that I was in basically a hyperallergenic state and snotty as hell, and I was ready to mooove on. I was even snoring for the first time in a decade or so, and keeping Aurora up at night. I had to sleep on the couch by the end of the milk diet - or, more accurately, lying awake on the couch at night." (Source: http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/06/milk-diet-fail.html)

So it's interesting, Michael, that multiple people who were well-disposed to including dairy in their diet, like you, Tyler, John Wellborne, some of Robb Wolf's clients, Matt Stone and me, have all had similar negative experiences with dairy and this shows that there is a grain of truth in what Tyler says about longtime dairy advocates later changing their tunes (but he unfortunately exaggerates the point).

The pro dairy claims just don't pan out for me, though I won't jump to the conclusion that Tyler seems to that dairy must be horribly evil for nearly everyone. I only suggest that people consider a period of dairy elimination like John Wellborne did before assuming they thrive on it. It won't kill people to go without dairy for 4 weeks or so and it makes sense based on at least the precautionary principle.

Like you, I haven't ruled out the possibility of including a little of some form of dairy in my diet in the future, but it just hasn't been a viable option for me up to this point. Also like you, I try not to get into debates with dairy advocates, because I've had bad experiences in the past with some rather zealous dairy advocates who went ballistic over any negative reports about dairy. Dairy, fruit and fatty cooked meats like pemmican seem to be akin to sacred manna for some people. Anything negative said about them seems to be regarded by them as sacrilege worthy of instant damnation and debates over those foods tend to be the most heated. Have you noticed that hardly anyone gets bent out of shape over broccoli, lean meats or fish? :D
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2010, 03:17:45 pm »
Yes and this is not uncommon. I've seen it in every diet and health forum I've perused that had a substantial number of posts. Many people who experience a dramatic rejuvenation after changing a certain variable like diet quickly become convinced that the same formula will help everyone and develop an urge to save the world by proselytizing it.

Yes, to further prove that point, when I consumed about a 1/3 cup of warmed ghee once it didn't loosen my bowels in the slightest but it did give me stomach gas with belching, nausea, headache, full-body malaise, mental fog, restless sleep and a nightmare that woke me up around 4 am. In contrast, I can eat 2 or 3 cups of raw 100% grassfed suet with nothing more than a few mild burps and large amounts of raw supermarket marrow with no negative symptoms at all (though I don't care for the taste of supermarket marrow--but I add spice to make it palatable for me). As a matter of fact, the more grassfed suet I eat the better I feel--which is the opposite of my experience with ghee.
Well said. There is an Ayurvedic process that is done at certain times of the year as a multi day cleanse which usually involves a gradual daily build-up of ghee consumption which is to turn off the digestion to reduce hunger and thus limit food intake to give the system a break. Not a fast but a semi-fast  ;D . When you do it there is rules regarding food and especially any oil or dairy consumption because you will get nauseous as well as all the symptoms you described. To do this properly it is best to have a specific regimen prescribed by an Ayurvedic practitioner. After the prescribed # of days you do the "Holy shit" as my buddy calls it with a prescribed dose of usually triphala and or Castor blaster  ;D
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2010, 05:45:20 pm »
Neither are your shoes and your computer and the wiring in your house and indeed your apartment/city/country  ;)
The difference is that Ayurveda has been useless for me whereas electricity, my shoes etc. have been very useful indeed. Personally, though, I would be happier if I didn't depend on them and behaved like my Cro-Magnon ancestors.
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Offline cliff

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2010, 08:50:42 pm »
it's interesting that you, Tyler and me all have issues with most or all forms of dairy, even the ones that dairy-eating Paleo and Primal dieters advocate.

What are your guys ancestory?? 

Both my parents happen to have direct ancestory from the denmark area and for the most part the bloodline is still very pure.  I can handle tons of raw milk, butter cheese etc.  I actually handle this stuff better then meat currently, my diet is probably 70% dairy.  I've been experimenting with this for a couple months now and so far I feel great, chronic acne is gone(as long as I don't cheat with starches), my digestion is freakin amazing and I am probably the most active I've ever been.

I definetly am on the lookout for problems arising as I've heard so many anecdotal cases of people failing on raw dairy but so far I'm loving it.  And while I don't have any blood tests or solid evidence to say its not harming I don't see myself changing the dairy intake anytime soon because I feel great and thats all that matters to me.

Offline Brother

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2010, 09:17:08 pm »
What are your guys ancestory??  

Both my parents happen to have direct ancestory from the denmark area and for the most part the bloodline is still very pure.  I can handle tons of raw milk, butter cheese etc.  I actually handle this stuff better then meat currently, my diet is probably 70% dairy.  I've been experimenting with this for a couple months now and so far I feel great, chronic acne is gone(as long as I don't cheat with starches), my digestion is freakin amazing and I am probably the most active I've ever been.

I definetly am on the lookout for problems arising as I've heard so many anecdotal cases of people failing on raw dairy but so far I'm loving it.  And while I don't have any blood tests or solid evidence to say its not harming I don't see myself changing the dairy intake anytime soon because I feel great and thats all that matters to me.

From Denmark here as well. Scandinavia in general have an almost legendary tollerance for dairy. A lot of us grew up on half a liter per day. Pasteurized, homogenized milk. We do not have unusually many cases of osteoporosis as far as I know and the decline in public health is without a shred of doubt linked to our growing intake of refined carbohydrates in the shape of white flour, sugar etc. That and all the shitty "natural" oils we have been reccomended to take instead of healthy animal fat. Dairy was our number one protein for hundreds of years and eating lard was common.

As I have said before. I have more energy when I keep some dairy in my diet. I dont need a whole lot of it, but some is better than none for me. Atleast on a primarily carnivore diet. I know more than one bodybuilder whos main stable is raw cream and butter. I am not a dairy advocate however, simply because I do realise that science view it as a fact that the large majorty of people on earth are lactose/casein intollerant in various degrees. ranging from unpleasant to dangerous. But for those of us who can handle and even thrive on it, I see absolutely no reason not to eat what is availiable to us.

Raw Paleo can easily go the way of veganism and become cult like with rigid rulesets defined by people I dont reckall voting in as absolute authority on these matters. I believe that would be missing the point of what we are doing completely.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2010, 12:38:37 am »
I think Dr Harris makes many good points on the subject.
Can you give me a link or flesh in where you heard of Dr. Harris?
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2010, 02:11:02 am »
....As for PP's spurious claims, they are motivated by numerous previous discussions where I, very scientifically, debunked his notions re Noble Savagery , the supposedly "healthy" French, Kurt Harris etc. etc. etc. Just sour grapes on his part.   l)

This is a classic example of one of TD's favorite tactics that I mentioned: straw man arguments. I have never advocated noble savagery or claimed that all French are "healthy", yet he persists in misrepresenting my views and those of anyone he disagrees with. It's a sure sign of a weak argument when he resorts to such tactics.

I don't advocate "noble savagery" or blind emulation, I advocate doing whatever works for you (for some reason, Tyler continues to ignore my signature that indicates this). If it turns out that what works for you includes some things that "savages" (hunter gatherers and Stone Agers) practiced, I don't think that means you advocate "noble savagery". Ironically, critics have accused everyone here, including Tyler and indeed all Paleo dieters, of advocating "noble savagery" and practicing blind emulation of "savages," so it's rather ironic that Tyler casually tosses those insults at others here. It shouldn't be necessary to say it, but I also don't regard hunter gatherers and Stone Agers as "savages". I think they were human beings with different, more "primitive"/ancestral lifestyles than ours (sometimes including things I don't advocate, like various forms of cannibalism). "Savages" has a more emotional/negative/magical context outside the bounds of science and reason. On the other hand, I do sometimes jokingly refer to myself as a "savage" because I eat a mostly-raw Paleo diet, so I see the insult as more a sign that I'm doing something right than something to be bothered by.

What are your guys ancestory??
Mostly so-called "Celtic" (though scientists still aren't sure whether the people identified as "Celtic" are really descended from Celts or earlier peoples that the Celts conquered) in my case, with a fair amount of Norman (Norse-man). I most resemble my Irish grandfather who was of ancient Irish stock.

Some claim that Scandinavians became fully adapted to dairy products in less than 10 thousand years of consuming them as staples, but then how do we explain why they have some of the highest osteoporosis rates in the world whereas Japanese and Okinawans who eat little or no dairy have much lower rates of osteoporosis? On the other hand, I haven't heard of the Masai or Evenks having osteoporosis, so it could depend on the type of milk consumed (bovine vs. reindeer or goat, A1 vs A2, pasteurized vs. raw, etc.).

Years ago I thought I handled dairy well, loved it, drank large quantities of whole milk, and used full-fat cream. I used to thank my lucky stars that I wasn't intolerant of dairy fat like my sisters (little did I know). They had to drink nonfat milk because they would upchuck whole milk, yet they could eat animal body fats. Similarly, I find I can digest animal body fats better than dairy fat, but I didn't fully notice this until I eliminated dairy from my diet and months later tried re-introducing dairy products.

I envy you if you're doing well with dairy. Have you ever tried dairy elimination?

Can you give me a link or flesh in where you heard of Dr. Harris?
Dr. Harris' excellent blog is at http://www.paleonu.com/. Fair warning, he has written some harsh things about this blog and its members, and I initially took umbrage at it (and overreacted, regrettably), but I decided that the value of the information he provides far outweighs petty bad feelings over insults, and there was a grain of truth in what he wrote--for example, his criticisms were quite applicable to the posts of William who used to be a member here and who did advocate blindly utopian noble savagery and exhibited magical thinking. There are also times (such as recently) when Tyler's posts justify KGH's criticisms, so I can understand how he could have gotten the impression of us that he did, but I think that even Tyler didn't adopt a raw Paleo diet because of blind emulation, but rather because "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked." It's frankly bizarre that Tyler implies that I am motivated by "noble savagery" or emulation of the French when I have quoted his reasoning in my signature.

Tyler seems to have something against the French and North Africans for some reason and I will admit to tweaking him a bit on that as I do enjoy teasing (a weakness I haven't been able to correct and in which I take after my grandfather who I admired). Every time he denounces the French I like to come up with something nice to say about them to stir his pot. :D Let me see, what can I say this time--I know, we have some marvelous French members here who add a lot to the discussions.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 03:12:20 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cliff

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2010, 05:41:37 am »

I envy you if you're doing well with dairy. Have you ever tried dairy elimination?


Yup, I was switching between different diets for a while.  For a good couple of months I was doing lots of dairy and fermented grains.  This was ok at first but after a couple months I definitely had issues, which i attributed mostly to the dairy at the time.  After trying to tweak random things(more animal foods, more meat, less carbs)  I've come back to the dairy and do not suffer from the problems I had before.  But like I said I'm definitely on the lookout for any future problems as I had some issues before.

Like the other poster I was raised on copious amounts of pasteurized milk and was relatively healthy till I changed my diet to mcdonalds and coca cola. 

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2010, 05:51:27 am »
I was raised by a health conscious mother who provided plenty of milk and whole grains and very little soda pop, but I and my siblings nonetheless had health problems. How long did your dairy elimination last?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cliff

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2010, 06:43:36 am »
How long did your dairy elimination last?

Probably a couple months, before the dairy/fermented grain diet I was off dairy for 2 years.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2010, 07:07:24 am »
OK, that sounds like a thorough test to me if you didn't experience any benefits from a 2 year dairy elimination.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2010, 08:00:31 pm »
This is a classic example of one of TD's favorite tactics that I mentioned: straw man arguments. I have never advocated noble savagery or claimed that all French are "healthy", yet he persists in misrepresenting my views and those of anyone he disagrees with. It's a sure sign of a weak argument when he resorts to such tactics.

Hypocrite. You previously went on the bandwagon some months ago claiming that the French were super-healthy people as regards diet. It took me and 1 or 2 French members of rawpaleoforum to laboriously point out your many errors in making such an absurd claim. Same goes as regards Noble Savagery arguments you made in the past, re your defence of Weston-Price, who was THE primary advocate of Noble Savage notions.


As for making spurious claims re the French and North Africans, that's just stupid. For one thing, I happen to pride myself on my illustrious Norman ancestry so it's absolutely laughable to suggest that I am anti-French. As for the North African remark, I merely made, in a thread about foreign customs re toilet habits, a valid point, in passing, to the  toilet training of some North African immigrants who broke into my house on several occasions. Yet you chose to "reinterpret" what I'd said, in the most unethical, inaccurate way possible, as always.

Re ancestry:-  I am mainly of Celtic/Viking descent, I guess. I doubt that DNA is all that relevant, though. Besides,Northern Europe was one of the last bastions of hunter-gatherer activity until grains and the Neolithic civilisation was transmitted from the Middle-East into Europe. So, I would assume that they got started on raw dairy at a much later date than those in Southern Europe.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cliff

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Re: Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2010, 08:29:20 pm »
Besides,Northern Europe was one of the last bastions of hunter-gatherer activity until grains and the Neolithic civilisation was transmitted from the Middle-East into Europe. So, I would assume that they got started on raw dairy at a much later date than those in Southern Europe.

The hunter-gatherers who inhabited the southern coast of Scandinavia 4,000 years ago were lactose intolerant. This has been shown by a new study carried out by researchers at Uppsala University and Stockholm University. The study, which has been published in the journal BMC Evolutionary Biology, supports the researchers' earlier conclusion that today's Scandinavians are not descended from the Stone Age people in question but from a group that arrived later.


From the sounds of it some sort of nomadic dairy tribe replaced the HG's in northern europe, the people who replaced the HG's are the ancestors of modern day northern europeans.

 

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