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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2014, 07:09:03 pm »
Least desired of five MAJOR food categories (you do know that the Hadza eat far more than just the studied sample foods, right?).
I am aware that they must have eaten a wider variety of foods, overall,  given that they were HGs in areas of food-scarcity, but that still means that they derived most of their diet from those 5 MAJOR food-groups.
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I don't take the Hadza's (or anyone else's) dietary views as gospel, but if you wish to, then if you assume that they “loathe” tubers (despite the evidence to the contrary) and eat them (which you don't appear to be disputing), then to be consistent you would do both—-loathe them AND EAT THEM.
Not necessarily. if one were  to follow the Hadzas' dietary preferences, then one would only eat those foods they thought were best/healthiest for them and exclude those foods they liked the least, since their dislike would be based on the lack of nutrition/taste in such foods. Let#s face it, the Hadzas live, like most HGs, in times of scarcity, so if they come across a food they do not like or want they will still eat it if it is edible, simply because they have to survive and do not possess fridges or freezers like modern peoples do.

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Just about every dietary approach has anecdotes to support and critique it with. Apparently you dismiss the reports of Iguana, GCB and his wife, GoodSamaritan, Brady, Miles and others who report faring well while eating plenty of plant foods, and with GCB, Brady, Miles and Löwenherz reporting ill effects from excessive meat consumption (IIRC)?

I do not dismiss their reports. It is just that I have found that raw, low carb diets usually provide far stronger  health-benefits than raw high-carb ones. Raw vegans have been reported as having difficulty raising children healthily on a raw vegan diet, and many raw vegans and fruitarians report experiencing health problems after years on such a diet.Those on a raw high carb diet that includes some raw animal foods(at least 5% of diet?) will likely not get any nutritional deficiencies, but I have not come across as many anecdotal reports of success from such a group as from raw, lo carbers.

Again, I do not think Iguana is necessarily raw, high carb as he eats a lot of raw meat every day.

Actually, like you, I am leery of raw vegan and raw zero carb diets, I just think that some can handle the latter type of diet very well, with a very few being able to handle a raw vegan diet in the long-term.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2014, 11:14:35 am »
I am aware that they must have eaten a wider variety of foods, overall,  given that they were HGs in areas of food-scarcity, but that still means that they derived most of their diet from those 5 MAJOR food-groups.
Right, and tubers are one of the 5 major food groups, in other words, one of the types of foods they eat plenty of.
 
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if one were  to follow the Hadzas' dietary preferences, then one would only eat those foods they thought were best/healthiest for them and exclude those foods they liked the least, since their dislike would be based on the lack of nutrition/taste in such foods.
The thing that determines their health, microbiome, epigenetics and genetics over the long run is what they eat/ate, rather than what they wish they could eat. So the actual fact of what they eat is more important, scientifically, than what they would eat if they had unrestricted choice. If only their top favorite food in the study could be considered nutritious enough to emulate in our own diets (which is ridiculous, but I'll play along with you), then we would eat only honey, which was preferred the most by both males and females. How much honey do you eat?

I don't buy that they loathe tubers anyway, which contradicts what Jeff Leach said. He knows much more about the Hadza than you or I do.

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Let#s face it, the Hadzas live, like most HGs, in times of scarcity, so if they come across a food they do not like or want they will still eat it if it is edible, simply because they have to survive and do not possess fridges or freezers like modern peoples do.
Yes, thanks for making my point. So they will eat a food like a tuber even if they don't consider it their tastiest food. In addition to mere survival motives, they will also be more likely to gather and eat something if it gives good calorie or other payback (such as water in some cases--such as with the ekwa tuber--which is essential in an arid climate) for the amount of calories expended to obtain it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2014, 01:25:05 pm »
Right, and tubers are one of the 5 major food groups, in other words, one of the types of foods they eat plenty of.
The fact that the tubers are their LEAST preferred major food group, because of their low caloric value,  means that they would far rather eat the other 4 major food groups in preference. Also, the fact that they eat tubers only as fallback foods in times of scarcity should indicate that they do not view tubers as being ideal foods, let alone healthy foods.Oh, yes, and it is mentioned that tubers are most often taken by the Hadza when berries are least available
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The thing that determines their health, microbiome, epigenetics and genetics over the long run is what they eat/ate, rather than what they wish they could eat. So the actual fact of what they eat is more important, scientifically, than what they would eat if they had unrestricted choice.
I never stated that the Hadza were an example of health, that was your stance not backed by any real facts. I am sure that their consumption of an unhealthy diet including some tubers has meant that they lead rather unhealthy lives. Besides, the wild HG Hadzas are now a tiny minority, who knows what they ate in palaeo times, therefore?
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If only their top favorite food in the study could be considered nutritious enough to emulate in our own diets (which is ridiculous, but I'll play along with you), then we would eat only honey, which was preferred the most by both males and females. How much honey do you eat?
I did not suggest that their top food was the only healthy one, merely that the other 4 food groups were not fallback foods and therefore far healthier than tubers to eat.
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Yes, thanks for making my point. So they will eat a food like a tuber even if they don't consider it their tastiest food. In addition to mere survival motives, they will also be more likely to gather and eat something if it gives good calorie or other payback (such as water in some cases--such as with the ekwa tuber--which is essential in an arid climate) for the amount of calories expended to obtain it.
The whole point is that scientists point out routinely that tubers provide very low caloric value, especially in comparison to foods like meats. Plus, eating a food simply in order to survive does not make it remotely healthy, that is simple logic. I mean, HGs would eat manure simply in order to avoid total  starvation.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2014, 07:24:46 pm »
We seem to be going around in circles on this, so I've put it aside for now, sorry, and may come back to it later.

It will be interesting to see what Jeff Leach's Hadza and general GI microbiome research produces in the future. As I mentioned before, he is begging LC and Paleo dieters to submit their samples to the American Gut Project, along with people from all around the world. It's a chance for LC advocates who say that their health is great to demonstrate it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2014, 01:15:58 am »
tyler your logic seems to be too narrow minded.    For instance,  I doubt you would disagree that to have copious amounts of never ending meat would be healthy,, especially if you gorged every day on it.  Hence, it might have proved extremely healthy for the Hazda's to go on frequent meat fasts and live off of something that potentially build up their floras from RS based food stuffs.    Thus it May have been an important part of their over all diet. 
      The problem or shortcoming to submitting our decals to his study is that I haven' seen any thing that definitively will tell us what is ideal, and if there is an ideal, what that would mean.  And yes, I understand there are less than supposed ideal bacterias, but how do we know of what balance once again is desired,  unless you hold the Hazda's gut profile as gold standard.

Offline van

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2014, 01:25:44 am »
Let me add an example,,   jeff and other's point out the protective nature of the fatty acids produced by the RS supported bacteria in the gut.  And how they also level blood sugar fasting levels...    But this may be idea for those eating a carb heavy or RS heavy diet, and not potentially useful for those eating a diet already replete with fats.   For instance, if the game that the Hazda's were able to catch/eat were limited to lean animals, then their fat sources could very well  be supplemented  from the 'fat' produced by the RS fed bacteria.     And again, I am very interested in this subject, and am anticipating wonderful findings in the future.    In fact, I have this idea as to how wonderful it would be to be able to leave meat totally alone and go back to becoming vegetarian with the concept that my intestine's bacteria could convert everything I needed to flourish, as does a cow,, which basically lives off of fats produced by the bacteria in their guts.   

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2014, 06:05:12 am »
The point is that tubers are very low in calories and therefore not an ideal food - they also contain antinutrients. Therefore it makes sense that the Hadza only rely on them as fallback foods if other foods, such as berries, are unavailable.

 Not sure what  exactly you mean by that meat reference.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2014, 06:55:15 am »
Nutrition is not only and simply a matter of calories and of the few known nutrients or so called anti-nutrients. There are billions of various substances in a foodstuff and we know only a few properties of a very tiny fraction of them.

Interactions of an animal with its food are much more complex than what we will ever be able to analyze.

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2014, 07:05:59 am »
Tyler,  you make references to intermittent fasting.     If big game was plentiful on a daily basis, intermittent fasting wouldn't be possible for the Hazdas, or any tribe, unless self inflicted.     So if you look at it from that point of view, that the substitution of tubers from meat could possibly be a healthy part of their diet.  I think eating large portions of meat daily is not healthy.  And the RS ingested may be just as valuable as the proteins obtained by meat.   Being that an all meat and fat diet doesn't provide as large a spectrum of gut bacteria,, IF that is more desirable.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2014, 07:31:36 am »
You reeled me back in with some excellent questions, Van.  :D
The problem or shortcoming to submitting our decals to his study is that I haven' seen any thing that definitively will tell us what is ideal, and if there is an ideal, what that would mean.  And yes, I understand there are less than supposed ideal bacterias, but how do we know of what balance once again is desired,  unless you hold the Hazda's gut profile as gold standard.
Yeah, there isn't certainty and there never will be. I'm not waiting for certainty and so far I am benefiting, though I'm not telling anyone what to do.

I don’t think Jeff is claiming that the Hadza are guaranteed to have a perfect GI microbiome. He just figured that they are one of the best populations to study, if not the best. He has also studied other populations and asked anyone who thinks there is a better group to study than the last of the traditional Hadza (who are quickly modernizing now) to let him know. I suggested the Chukchi, but one problem with them is that they eat special rare foods like raw fermented walrus (a staple food of the coastal Chukchi) that not many people have access to, so their diets aren't as relevant to moderners.

I'll let Jeff's words and research speak for themselves. He tries to remain somewhat cautious and balanced, while at the same time warning VLCers that all may not be as well as they think, and he emphasizes diversity in both the GI microbiome and the diet.

(Emphases mine)
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"[Jeff Leach's] interest in modern diet and the gut microbiome began almost a decade ago when his daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. As with other autoimmune diseases, an underlying genetic susceptibility must exist for type 1 diabetes to manifest but an environmental component (trigger) is necessary. With advances in metagenomics and huge government initiatives like the recently completed Human Microbiome Project, its becoming increasingly clear that the gut microbiome plays a significant if not causal role in the development of type 1 diabetes, other autoimmune diseases, and modern (ecological) diseases in general.

In an effort to raise awareness about the changes in human ecology that have given rise to diseases of the modern world, Jeff launched the Human Food Project ..." http://humanfoodproject.com/the-people/founder-jeff-leach
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http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach

Chris Kresser: ... what I’ve noticed is that many people who are on a ketogenic or very low carb diet – let’s say less than 30 or 40 grams of carbohydrate a day – come back with an alkaline pH in the stool.  They have low levels of butyrate or other total short-chain fatty acids and some other markers of dysbiosis.  So, that got me thinking and wondering about the potential adverse effects of a very low carb or ketogenic diet from the perspective of gut flora, gut microbiota, and wondering is it that people who are doing the ketogenic diets are not only doing a ketogenic diet, but they’re also just not eating enough plant fiber?  And that kind of makes sense.  If they’re really trying to limit their carbohydrates, they’re going to be somewhat limited in terms of the variety of vegetables and certainly fruits that they can eat.  You can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think I read a blog post of yours a while back that was speculating maybe that 35 or 40 grams of carbohydrate may not be sufficient to reach the levels of bacterial fermentation that you were just talking about.  Do you have any thoughts about that?

Jeff Leach:  ... that’s interesting that you’re seeing the shifts in the pH in the colon.  That’s fascinating, and it’s what you would expect.  It’s an interesting topic, and it’s a pretty passionate crowd of people as well.

...

Like Jimmy Moore and those guys.  I mean, I have nothing but ultimate respect for Jimmy.  He is all in, but I worry about it.  What’s interesting in American Gut is we have quite a few paleo dieters that have identified as paleo dieters in the study, and we need a lot more.  It’s a group of people we’re very interested in, and we’re interested in the very low carbohydrate guys as well.  We’re seeing an increasing number of those guys in the study, but we need more of them to have any kind of definitive take on the problem.  But if you just look at it from what we know from the literature – and there are not many studies that have isolated very low carb people – but when you come at it from the perspective of pH like you do, which is spot on, what happens when people go on a low carb diet – you know more about this than I do, but I always get the emails, What’s wrong with eating 10 cups of broccoli a day?  One of the big things that the low carb diets do is they really drop out the resistant starch in the diet.  And what’s interesting about a lot of butyrate producers, Roseburia and these guys and Eubacterium, they’re cross-feeders.  For example, you have certain species of bacteria, groups of bacteria that break down whatever, cellulose and hemicellulose, and produce acetate and propionate and all these things, but a lot of the butyrate producers are cross-feeders and they’re feeding off of other activities.  So, when I see a very low carb person, I often see not only a huge drop in dietary fiber, but a drop in diversity of dietary fiber and a significant drop in resistant starch, which is a huge source of nutrients for the microbiome as well.  Resistant starch is often called the third dietary fiber.

But I lump it all together with anything that escapes digestion in the upper GI tract and ends up in your colon and is available for fermentation, and it’s a lot of things besides just dietary fiber.  But I’m concerned about it for the exact reasons that you are.  We don’t have the data.  Nobody has done any nice clinical controlled trials, but when you starve the bacteria, you may see an increase in mucin degraders like Akkermansia and a few other ones.  That shift in the pH is going to provide opportunities for pathogens to maybe bloom up that may cause some down-the-road, long-term problems.  But again, maybe not.  Nobody knows for sure, but if you’re shifting that pH and you’re not fermenting, you’re opening the pathogen’s door.  It’s going to take a long time to unwind this, but I think the more low carb people we can get in the study, we can contribute to the conversation at least to the point where it can serve as a baseline for maybe more controlled clinical kinds of studies.  But I would never recommend a low carb diet.  I think you can eat lots and lots of healthy carbs and maintain your weight.  I’m not necessarily a paleo dieter.  I don’t eat grains.  I have a type 1 diabetic daughter, so our family is very sensitive to the effects of all grains.
Jeff's papers and articles:
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Leach, JD. Please Pass the Microbes, Nature, Vol 503, No 7478, pp. 33, 2013.
Leach, JD. The Human Microbiome. Optimum Nutrition, Autumn Issue, 34-35, 2013.
Leach, JD. Ghosts of our African Gut. Paleo Magazine, Dec/Jan 2012, 40-42.
Leach, JD. Letter to the Editor: Low carbohydrate-high protein diet and incidence of cardiovascular diseases in Swedish women: prospective cohort study, British Medical Journal 2012;344:e4026
Leach JD & K Sobolik. High dietary intake of prebiotic inulin-type fructans from prehistoric Chihuahuan Desert. British Journal of Nutrition. Vol 103 (11):1558-1561
Leach, JD. Dirtying up our diets. Op-ed, New York Times, June 21, 2012.
Leach, JD. Dishing up the dirt that’s good to consume, Op-ed, The Sydney Morning Herald, June 27, 2012.
Leach JD (in review) Probiotics versus prebiotics? an evolutionary perspective. Network Health Dietitians Magazine (UK)
Leach JD, 2009. Revised energy conversion factor for undigested carbohydrates and implications for resource ranking in optimal foraging theory. North American Archaeologist. Vol 30, No. 4. 393-413.
Leach JD Aug 22, 2008. Wiping out bacteria on lettuce has downside, Letter, USA Today.
Leach JD July 28, 2008. Gut Check, Op-ed, San Francisco Chronicle.
Leach JD. 2008. Prebiotics nothing new, says evolutionary hitchhiker. Functional Ingredients Magazine, June 2008.
Leach JD. 2008. Are daily dietary fibre recommendations too low? an evolutionary perspective.Network Health Dietitians Magazine May, 2008.
Leach JD. 2007 Paleo Longevity Redux. Letter to the Editor, Public Health Nutrition. 2/8/2007
Leach JD. 2007. Prebiotics in Ancient Diets. Food Science and Technology Bulletin (2007),
4 (1):1-8.
Leach JD. 2007. Evolutionary perspective on dietary intake of fibre and colorectal cancer. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2007) 61, 140–142
Leach JD Jan 22, 2007. Fighting E. coli the old-fashioned way, Op-ed, San Francisco Chronicle
Leach JD. 2006 Reconsidering Ancient Caloric Yields from Cultivated Agave in Southern Arizona. Journal of the Arizona-Nevada Academy of Science. 39(1): 18-21.
Leach JD, Gibson GR, Van Loo J. 2006. Human Evolution, Nutritional Ecology and Prebiotics in Ancient Diet. Bioscience & Microflora Vol. 25, No. 1. pp 1-8
Leach, J.D., Rastall, R.A. and Gibson, G.R. 2006. Prebiotics: Past, Present and Future, In Gibson, G.R. and Rastall, R.A. (eds) Prebiotics: Development and Application. John Wiley & Sons Ltd., pgs 237-248.
Leach, J.D., Bousman, C.B. and D. Nickels. 2005. Comments on Assigning a Primary Context to Artifacts Recovered from Burned Rock Middens. Journal of Field Archaeology 30(2): 201-203.
Leach, JD. 2005. Sharp increase in cook-stone use in the Chihuahuan Desert during periods of agricultural intensification. Antiquity 79(304): http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/leach05/
Leach, J.D., Bradfute, T. 2004. Cultural Response to Demographic and Environmental Stress During the Classic Mimbres Period (AD 1000-1130/40), Southern New Mexico: the Cook-Stone Evidence. Antiquity 78(300): http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/leach/
Leach, J.D. 2003. Learning from Once-Hot Rocks. University of Leicester Bulletin 25:9.
Johnson, D. R. Mandel, M. Petraglia, and Leach, J.D., 2002, Site Formation Processes in a Regional Perspective, Geoarchaeology: An International Journal Vol 17, No 1:3-6.
Leach, J.D. , Mauldin, R.P., Kuehn, D. and Morgan, G.,  1999, Late Wisconsin-age Proboscideans from Southern New Mexico.  Texas Journal of Science, 1999, 51(2):195-198.
Leach, J.D. , Hunziker, J., Mauldin, R.P. and Harris, A., 1999, A Bison sp. From Lincoln County, Southern New Mexico. Texas Journal of Science, Vol 51.
Leach, J.D. , 1998,  A Brief Comment on the Immunological Identification of Plant Residues on Prehistoric Tools and Ceramics: Results of a Blind Test. Journal of Archaeological Science 25, 171-175.
Mauldin, R.P., Leach, J.D. , Monger, H.C., Harris, A. and Johnson, D., 1998, A preliminary report on the Dry Gulch mammoth site, Lincoln County, New Mexico. Current Research in the Pleistocene 15:114-116.
Leach, J.D. , Mauldin, R.P. and Monger, H.C., 1998, The Impact of Eolian Processes on Archeological Site Size and Characteristics in West Texas and Southern New Mexico. Bulletin of the Texas Archaeological Society 69.
Leach, J.D. , 1998, Site Formation Processes and the Origin of Artifacts in Plow-zone Provenances: A Case Study from the Rio Grande Valley, Texas. North American Archaeologist Vol 19, no. 4:343-361.
Leach, J.D. , Nickels, D., Moses, B.K. and Jones, R., 1998, A Brief Comment on Estimating Rates of Burned Rock Discard: Results from an Experimental Earth Oven. La Tierra 27(1).
Leach, J.D. , Peterson, J, 1997, Evidence for Mimbres-Mogollon Mortuary Practices in the Desert Lowlands of Far West Texas. Texas Journal of Science, Vol. 49(2):163-166.
Pingitore, N.E., Villalobos, Leach, J.D., Peterson, J.A. and Hill, D., 1997, Provenance Determination from ICP-MS Elemental and Isotopic Compositions of El Paso Area Ceramics. In Materials Issues in Art and Archaeology V, pp. 59-70, edited by P.B. Vandiver, J.R. Druzik, J.F. Merkel and J. Stewart. Materials Research Society Symposium Proceedings Volume 42, Pittsburgh, PA.
Pingitore, N.E. Jr, Hill, D., Villalobos, J., Peterson, J.A. and Leach, J.D., 1997, ICP-MS Isotopic Signatures of Lead Ceramic Glazes, Rio Grande Valley, New Mexico, 1315-1700. In Materials Issues in Art and Archaeology V, Materials Research Society Symposium Proceedings Volume 42, pp. 217-227, edited by P.B. Vandiver, J.R. Druzik, J.F. Merkel and J. Stewart. Materials Research Society Symposium Proceedings Volume 42, Pittsburgh, PA
Mauldin, R.P and Leach, J.D., 1997, The Padre Canyon Folsom Locale, Hueco Bolson, Texas. Current Research in the Pleistocene, Vol. 14:55-57.
Nickels, D.L., Tomka, S.A.,  Leach, J.D. and Moses, B.K., 1997, The Moos Site: A Late Paleoindian Component Site Along Leon Creek, South-Central Texas. Current Research in the Pleistocene Vol. 14:68-69.
Leach, J.D., 1997, Looking for Sites in All the Wrong Places: Secondary Formation Processes and the Origin of Artifacts in Plow-Zone Proveniences. In Proceedings of the Ninth Jornada-Mogollon Conference, El Paso, Texas, pp. 151-165, edited by R.P. Mauldin, J.D. Leach and S. Ruth. Centro de Investigaciones, Publications in Archaeology No. 12 and The University of Texas at El Paso.
Mauldin, R.P. Leach, J.D. and Ruth, S. (eds.), 1997, Proceedings of the Ninth Jornada-Mogollon Conference, El Paso, Texas. Centro de Investigaciones, Publications in Archaeology No. 12 and The University of Texas at El Paso.
Leach, J.D., 1997, Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy Analysis of Green-Glazed Ceramics and Unknown Green Substances. In Proceedings of the Ninth Jornada-Mogollon Conference, El Paso, Texas, pp. 4, edited by R.P. Mauldin, J.D. Leach and S. Ruth. Centro de Investigaciones, Publications in Archaeology No. 12 and The University of Texas at El Paso.
Leach, J.D., Alamrez, F. and Buck, B., 1996, A Prehistoric Reservoir in Far West Texas. Bulletin of the Texas Archaeological Society 67:133-144.
Leach, J.D., Holloway, R.G. and Almarez, F., 1996, Prehistoric Evidence for the Use of Chenopodium (Goosefoot) from the Hueco Bolson, Texas. Texas Journal of Science, Vol. 48(2):163-165.
Leach, J.D. and Mauldin, R.P., 1996, Immunological Residue Analysis: The Results of Recent Archaeological and Experimental Studies. Texas Journal of Science, Vol. 48(1):25-34.
Mauldin, R.P., Leach, J.D. and Amick, D., 1995, On the Identification of Blood Residues on Paleoindian Artifacts. Current Research in the Pleistocene, Vol 12:85-87.
Leach, J.D. and Mauldin, R.P., 1995, Additional Comments on Residue Analysis in Archaeology.Antiquity 69(266):1020-1022.
Leach, J.D. and Peterson, J.A., 1995, Test Excavations at Tigua Ysleta del Sur Pueblo. Cultural Resource Management: News and Views, Vol 8(1):21.
Leach, J.D., 1994, Archaeological Investigations in the Eastern Hueco Bolson: Findings from the Hueco Mountain Archaeological Project. In Mogollon VII: The Collected Papers of the 1992 Mogollon Mogollon Conference Held in Las Cruces, New Mexico, pp. 115-128, edited by P. Beckett. COAS Publishing and Research.
Leach, J.D., 1994, Immunological Residue Analysis: The Hidden Evidence from the Meyers Pithouse Village. In Archaeological Investigations of the Meyer Range Pithouse Village, Fort Bliss, Texas, pp. 275-285, edited by J.A. Peterson. Fort Bliss Publications. (with M. Newman).
Leach, J.D., 1993, The Monger Site: Test Excavations at FB13327, Fillmore Pass, Fort Bliss, Texas. The Artifact Vol 31(2):47-55.
Leach, J.D. and Burgett, G., 1993, The Hueco Mountain Archaeological Project. In Texas Archaeology: Newsletter of the Texas Archaeological Society, Vol 37(2).
Leach, J.D., Almarez, F., Buck, B. and Burgett, G., 1993, Preliminary Investigations at a Prehistoric Reservoir. The Artifact, 31(2):33-45.

Let me add an example,,   jeff and other's point out the protective nature of the fatty acids produced by the RS supported bacteria in the gut.  And how they also level blood sugar fasting levels...    But this may be idea for those eating a carb heavy or RS heavy diet, and not potentially useful for those eating a diet already replete with fats.   For instance, if the game that the Hazda's were able to catch/eat were limited to lean animals, then their fat sources could very well  be supplemented  from the 'fat' produced by the RS fed bacteria.     And again, I am very interested in this subject, and am anticipating wonderful findings in the future.    In fact, I have this idea as to how wonderful it would be to be able to leave meat totally alone and go back to becoming vegetarian with the concept that my intestine's bacteria could convert everything I needed to flourish, as does a cow,, which basically lives off of fats produced by the bacteria in their guts.
From what I've seen from years of reading people's reports on the Internet, is that those following the most extreme and highly restricted diets at both ends of the macronutrient spectrum tend to do the worst in the longer run. Unfortunately, they tend to frequent dogmatic forums where their negative results get deleted (such as at the ZIOH zero carber forum and the 30 Bananas a Day LFHC forum). They do tend to lose weight (especially the LFHC folks) and associate that with success, but thinness does not guarantee health and well being.

I suspect that it's more optimal to get a significant portion of one's "dietary" fat from one's microbiota (using the term "dietary" loosely, as I don't know of a term for the fat we use that comes from our microbiota), instead of all from consumed foods. You could be right that as one increases consumption of prebiotic foods that it makes sense to cut back on the fat. I've noticed that my desire for fat has naturally fallen as I have expanded my diet and included more prebiotic-rich foods in it.

As always, YMMV.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2014, 07:58:52 am »
all good points,,  looking forward to learning more.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2014, 03:51:20 pm »
Tyler,  you make references to intermittent fasting.     If big game was plentiful on a daily basis, intermittent fasting wouldn't be possible for the Hazdas, or any tribe, unless self inflicted.     So if you look at it from that point of view, that the substitution of tubers from meat could possibly be a healthy part of their diet.  I think eating large portions of meat daily is not healthy.  And the RS ingested may be just as valuable as the proteins obtained by meat.   Being that an all meat and fat diet doesn't provide as large a spectrum of gut bacteria,, IF that is more desirable.
Ah, I see.  I only view intermittent fasting as something needed for a cooked diet as it allows the body time to get rid of toxins without ingesting more during that period of fasting.  My point was that the distribution of foods in Nature is not necessarily ideal for a particular species and what an HG tribe eats does not necessarily represent ideal health. I mean, giant pandas, for example,  eat mostly bamboos when their digestive systems  are far more oriented/adapted  towards eating meat, thus causing them  problems since they find bamboos more difficult to digest and lower in calorie.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2014, 07:31:57 am »
Ah, I see.  I only view intermittent fasting as something needed for a cooked diet as it allows the body time to get rid of toxins without ingesting more during that period of fasting.
Remember, though, that intermittent fasting vastly predates cooking--by millions of years.

Quote
My point was that the distribution of foods in Nature is not necessarily ideal for a particular species and what an HG tribe eats does not necessarily represent ideal health.
That point ironically has been used by promoters of dairy and other more recent staples than Stone Age HG staple foods. Are you acknowledging that they could theoretically be right after all?

Quote
I mean, giant pandas, for example,  eat mostly bamboos when their digestive systems  are far more oriented/adapted  towards eating meat, thus causing them  problems since they find bamboos more difficult to digest and lower in calorie.
Recall, though, that giant pandas have the physical makeup of hypercarnivores (second only to polar bears amongst the bear species in carnivorous morphology), whereas humans are omnivores that evolved from primates and pre-primates that consumed tree foods and insects. Humans appear to be better adapted to plant foods than giant pandas. Plus, microbiota help both pandas and humans turn foods into energy and nutrients. Giant pandas appear to be less well-adapted to their change in diet than humans, which may help explain how humans have come to dominate the planet, while GP's are nearing extinction.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2014, 12:47:48 am »
Whether IF existed prior to cooking is irrelevant. It was not an essential practice until cooking was invented and was something forced on HGs not something they would have willingly indulged in, necessarily.
Quote
That point ironically has been used by promoters of dairy and other more recent staples than Stone Age HG staple foods. Are you acknowledging that they could theoretically be right after all?
It is not an argument that can convincingly justify the consumption of dairy and grains  as grains and even dairy are way more artificial  foods than foods found in Nature(I mean of course dairy-consumption for adults being the unnatural aspect). What I meant was that the distribution of foods in palaeo times may have been more ideal for us hominids than modern times, since millenia of human inhabitation has ruined the environment and impoverished it. For example, it is a possibility that, in untouched palaeo times, the hadza had far more access to plentiful wild game compared to modern, ravaged times where wild game is far scarcer.

Re Pandas:-  My point was that tubers are low-calorie foods, thus being foods only used as fallback foods when other foods were unavailable. I also do not see the hadza as having adapted to eating tubers like cassava. One would assume that millions of years of eating tubers would have led to them adapting to the many antinutrients found in tubers, but this is not so.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 09:41:28 pm by TylerDurden »
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2014, 08:40:30 am »
I also do not see the hadza as having adapted to eating tubers like cassava. One would assume that millions of years of eating tubers would have led to them adapting to the many antinutrients found in tubers, but this is not so.
Cassava? The Hadza have not been eating cassava very long because it originated in South America, not Africa, and the last remaining traditional hunter gatherers among them still do not eat much of the domesticated foreign foods like cassava, though they are increasingly starting to eat some, unfortunately--such as corn, which per Jeff Leach they love on those occasions they get their hands on some. They are quite badly adapted to corn, which became apparent in Leach's research, because they developed an overgrowth of pathogenic prevotella (grain-loving) bacteria after feasting on corn (I think it was for just 2 or 3 days, or thereabouts).

They did not show any evidence of any GI microbiome problems while eating their usual wild tubers. Quite the contrary, while eating their traditional wild foods they showed the most biodiverse microbiome yet recorded (and thus it turned out that Leach was right to guess that their microbiome would be an excellent one to study). The research of Leach and others has found that GI microbiome biodiversity is associated with low levels of the chronic diseases of civilization. Like both Leach and Van have cautioned, it's still relatively early in the research, but that's where it has been consistently pointing.

Thanks for sharing your unique opinions.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2014, 05:27:41 pm »
Having healthy bacteria does not compensate for the fact that tubers are low-calorie foods. I am sure that pandas also have a healthy GI microbiome.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2014, 07:23:45 pm »
The calorie numbers only measure what is obtained from digestion in the stomach and small intestine by the human body. They don't take into account the energy and nutrition that the microbiota provide when they generate or help absorb and process SCFAs, minerals, B  vitamins and other nutrients, even during the night while we sleep, which is an especially important time for autophagy (cellular repair and clean up). The GI microbiome is a big piece of the puzzle that has been seriously underemphasized and often overlooked in Paleo circles until recently. It's not just important what we feed ourselves, it's also important what we feed our Old Friends. This probably helps explain while some people appear to thrive on crappy diets, while others find that they have to eat super healthy diets or else become ill--it may be due in part to differences in the quality of their GI microbiome (perhaps mainly differences in biodiversity, if the early research is on target) and related factors like how leaky and alkaline vs. acidic their guts are (not to be confused with alkalizing vs. acidifying foods).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2014, 04:51:08 pm »
Thanks for the interesting discussion, particularly to PaleoPhil!
Yes,  we are not a thermal engine in which the power output only depends on cubic capacity, rpm, efficiency and calories injected! 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2014, 09:41:35 pm »
Thanks Iguana. The giant panda microbiome enables them to survive on a 99% plant diet despite having much more carnivorous physiology than humans, yet they do not have as optimal a mix of microbiome and physiology as healthy humans do (and tubers and certain other USOs also appear to be higher quality foods than bamboo). One of humanity's traits that appears to account in large measure for our success in populating and dominating almost the entire planet is our very diverse and adaptable microbiome and our mixed and adaptable physiology. The combination of a diverse microbiome with a mixed physiology and diverse diet appears to be far more adaptable than a 99% bamboo diet  with carnivorous physiology and less diverse microbiome. Thus, changes in habitat are threatening giant pandas with extinction, whereas humans are growing even more in numbers.

Unfortunately, we have been damaging our microbiome, particularly since the advent of industrialization, urbanization, and antibiotics. Further damaging it by excessively restricting Paleo diets (such as with chronic VLC/ZC, veganism, and the Wai diet) where not necessary doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Instincto, even when somewhat high in fruit (if not overly deficient in other foods), now seems more reasonable to me than chronic VLC/ZC. I can see now why GCB and other Instinctos turned away from very high meat intakes. That's not to suggest that Instincto is perfect. I suspect that many Instinctos excessively restrict diet biodiversity in other ways--such as avoiding the better starchy foods (and not just the bad ones). It sounds like you have not fallen prey to that as much as other Instinctos, which may help explain your long term success.

It may turn out that certain practices in meat-heavy societies, such as traditional coastal Inuit and Chukchi, help avoid problems from lack of plant diversity, though they are less practical in modern societies. It seems easier to develop a healthy diverse omnivorous diet in modern societies than a healthy VLC/ZC diet.

I should add that there are risks with starchy foods, and I'm not trying to totally discount those. I'm actually currently investigating one potential risk from a phenomenon known as persorption.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 10:07:44 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2014, 11:22:39 pm »
Thanks Iguana.
....
Instincto, even when somewhat high in fruit (if not overly deficient in other foods), now seems more reasonable to me than chronic VLC/ZC. I can see now why GCB and other Instinctos turned away from very high meat intakes. That's not to suggest that Instincto is perfect. I suspect that many Instinctos excessively restrict diet biodiversity in other ways--such as avoiding the better starchy foods (and not just the bad ones). It sounds like you have not fallen prey to that as much as other Instinctos, which may help explain your long term success.
Thanks to you!
The practice of "instincto" can never even approach perfection. The theory is something else and I haven't been able to find any serious flaw in it. 

Quote
I should add that there are risks with starchy foods, and I'm not trying to totally discount those.
Absolutely. Like for every foodstuff, the main risk is overconsumption when not properly - instinctively and permanently readjusted.   
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2014, 11:27:59 pm »
Healthy levels of bacteria cannot really compensate for either a bad diet or an evolutionarily unsuitable one. Take sloths, pandas and koalas, for example, who are unable to get enough energy from their so-called "natural" foods, thus forcing them into a sedentary lifestyle, for the most part.

Given the immense energy needed by the human brain, one can safely assume that a diet rich in tubers will eventually lead to a smaller brain, over many generations. It is telling that a large  increase in starchy foods consumption, such as tubers,  in the Neolithic era, resulted in a significantly smaller brain-size. Conversely, human average brain-size increased when meat-intake increased(and therefore , correspondingly, intake of other food items such as tubers decreased).
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2014, 11:34:04 pm »
Luckily, the better tubers and other underground storage organs can be part of a healthy Paleo diet, upon which it looks like we can agree to disagree.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2014, 11:47:14 pm »
It is telling that a large  increase in starchy foods consumption, such as tubers,  in the Neolithic era, resulted in a significantly smaller brain-size.

Isn’t it rather the result of an increase in cereal grains and in cooked foods — including over-consumption of tubers which became possible once they were cooked?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2014, 01:36:36 am »
Luckily, the better tubers and other underground storage organs can be part of a healthy Paleo diet, upon which it looks like we can agree to disagree.
I wonder if there is any scientific info somewhere on what percentage of tubers are edible by humans without any processing(ie no cyanide-containing cassavas!) and  which tubers(if any) are very low in antinutrients.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cooking
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2014, 01:57:27 am »
Isn’t it rather the result of an increase in cereal grains and in cooked foods — including over-consumption of tubers which became possible once they were cooked?

Cooking got started c.250,000 years ago, well before the Neolithic era. I will admit that, judging from HGs and Weston-Price's accounts of such tribes, that they likely ate some of their meats raw. However, the problem seems to be the introduction into the human diet  of lots more starchy foods like tubers and grains.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

 

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