Author Topic: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health  (Read 77038 times)

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Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2014, 01:45:14 am »
No, insect grubs, for example, are almost all fat.

Which grubs? Any examples of edible insect grubs?

Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2014, 01:48:39 am »
Alphagruis continues to make welcome comments to this forum

So why not invite him to participate again?

Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2014, 02:02:10 am »
Yes, I thought about that. The condition must be that he remains civil and polite, something he seems unable to. But I wish that I would not get drawn again in time consuming endless arguing with him because I already spent too much time here. And I feel that all has already been said on both side.

So for me he can stay where he is since I tried to sort of welcome him back but got insulted in return:
Hi Gerard,
Nice to hear from you! You may still be angry with me, but I’m not angry with you. I just haven’t understood the radical shift in your stance and why you were so abusive — as you are such a nice, amiable and generous guy in real life.
   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 02:14:23 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2014, 02:06:24 am »
Inger, this point  had been already repeated  ad nauseum, and it has been properly addressed in the threads linked above as well as other posts. 

You failed with what you thought was the right way to practice instinctive nutrition. No wonder, it's not easy to launch oneself in such an experiment without any proper training with somebody experienced along. Few people succeed in this way: it needs a constant questioning, an abandon of dogmas and all preconceived ideas as well a lot of trials and errors.

I had the luck to meet the  family of the guy who was one the 3 first experimenters and developers of the instincto nutrition along GCB and wife. I used to live just a few km away from this familly and we became friends, sharing food and meals.  I read 3 times GCB's book, followed 3 (yes, three) one week stages with GCB, both theoretical and practical. Without that, I wouldn't have succeeded.

Now you found "something better" and it seems to suit you. I'm not so smart, congratulations! That's fine, but it's not because it has suited you for a few years that you can assume everyone will be able to do the same and have the same results. And by the way, most of what you do is not at all contrary to the instincto guidelines, which you seem to understand in you own particular way as something restricted, rigid and dogmatic, which is not at all the case. 

GCB waited 8 years after he started to eat all raw with his whole family and several friends before making the provisional results of his experiment public. And he waited until he had 20 years of experience with about a thousand of people before publishing a book about it.

I asked you already twice in this thread if you saw the answers to your questions in the translation of GCB answer in German. It took me about 2 hours work and I would be glad to have an answer to those questions which I post now for the third time:

Quote from: Iguana on February 27, 2014, 10:17:47 pm

Inger, didn't you read my above post http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/gcb-eating-meat-is-harmful/msg119784/#msg119784 explaining why eating sweets fruits such as dates, figs and cherimoyas can in no way be an addiction?

Quote from: Iguana on February 28, 2014, 04:12:21 am
Inger: Did you find the answers to your questions?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 02:27:17 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Inger

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2014, 02:26:21 am »
You know Francois, I did read your post... but to me they was addiction.
And later I found out, I think, why. My body was out of balance offering it fruits and stuff that would no way have been available in my environment 24/7, naturally.

Sugar in winter? When was this natural? Is this hard to see?

And here is the issue. Can you now see what I am saying?

I am not saying figs are always bad. I say, the practice to put a fig, a orange, a Brazil nut, a piece of fish.... etc etc under your nose and smell what you want every day of the year, just did not work. Not for me. Because it was not natural from the beginning. Of course not. Check my quote from Alphagruis.

I am allfor instinctive nutrition if practised with wild local growing foods. Otherwise, a no no for me.

Offline eveheart

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2014, 02:37:00 am »
... I wanted to ask you (and make some comments) about these words of yours:
Actually, a lot a extraordinary healings have occurred in Europe, including of some serious diseases known as incurable.   I’m a complete ignorant on this topic. How does one moderate his/her insulin response? What are those eating strategies? What physical conditions can override the instinctive regulation? AFAIK, the idea expressed and discussed here by some that Nicole ate too much for psychological reasons is nothing else than speculative gossip.

I had extraordinary improvement following instinctive eating, but not complete healing. When the vast amount of my debilitating symptoms were eliminated, I was able to use blood tests and physical symptoms to identify problems related to insulin response. Those problems were with my instinct about foods containing carbohydrates. When I use that knowledge to limit certain food choices, my instinctive appetite works well.

I can't help but wonder about those instinctive eaters in Europe and elsewhere who were not healed with instinctive eating alone, including those who ate too much muscle meat for some reason. In other words, "What was the reason they ate too much muscle meat?" Psychological overeating is only one suggestion. I'd say, in the face of the report that she did overeat muscle meat, some sleuthing would have been in order. If psychological overeating were ruled out, perhaps more speculation and testing would have been in order.

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Is “along” a typo and you meant “alone”?

Yes, that was a typo, so I meant to type, "Many people, including myself, have found that instinctive eating alone is not curative." Alone modifies instinctive eating, i.e., instinctive eating by itself, not by myself.

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I hope it’s not me who told you what your instinct should be!
Actually, I find that the subject advice from GCB, "GCB: Eating meat too often could be harmful to health," has an inherent dictate about instinct that violates the basic premise of an instinctive appetite by meandering into the realm of "knowledge apart from instinct." To me, the advice is an attempt to makes the facts fit the evidence. Just my two cents worth.
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Offline Sorentus

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2014, 03:33:58 am »
Yes dates can be an addiction I don't see why it couldn't be, I myself am addicted to them. I had a pound of dates on more then oen occasion and just the thought of looking at them was riving me insane. I ate 1 pound of dates and was still very hungry (although that I think is more of a hormone problem) still, no amount would ever be able to satisfy me.

Offline eveheart

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2014, 04:09:59 am »
I had the luck to meet the  family of the guy who was one the 3 first experimenters and developers of the instincto nutrition along GCB and wife. I used to live just a few km away from this familly and we became friends, sharing food and meals.  I read 3 times GCB's book, followed 3 (yes, three) one week stages with GCB, both theoretical and practical. Without that, I wouldn't have succeeded....

GCB waited 8 years after he started to eat all raw with his whole family and several friends before making the provisional results of his experiment public. And he waited until he had 20 years of experience with about a thousand of people before publishing a book about it.

I didn't have the luck to meet or learn with GCB, only to read the English translation of his book multiple times. I thought the book was very instructive and complete about the right way to identify one's instinctive appetite through smell and taste of unprocessed, unseasoned foods.

Like Inger, I too follow the seasonality of foods, trusting in nature to provide the right foods for the other natural cycles such as high and low temperatures and long and short hours of daylight. This seems like a natural extension of instinctive eating principles, whether or not GCB wrote about it. Why is it necessary to exclude every premise that GCB did not expound on? Just as he collected result from his followers, this forum is based on collecting and sharing experience from our like-minded members.

Telling Inger that she failed with what she thought was the right way to practice instinctive nutrition is dogmatic. If instinctotherapie requires "proper training with somebody experienced along," then there is something wrong with the theory. Conversely, if there are many different outcomes in individuals following the instinctive eating method, then the theory is sound.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2014, 04:47:27 am »
You know Francois, I did read your post... but to me they was addiction.
And later I found out, I think, why. My body was out of balance offering it fruits and stuff that would no way have been available in my environment 24/7, naturally.
Sugar in winter? When was this natural? Is this hard to see?
And here is the issue. Can you now see what I am saying?
I am not saying figs are always bad. I say, the practice to put a fig, a orange, a Brazil nut, a piece of fish.... etc etc under your nose and smell what you want every day of the year, just did not work. Not for me. Because it was not natural from the beginning. Of course not. Check my quote from Alphagruis.

Alphagruis presumes that eating too much would be a selective advantage because food was not always available and our ancestors would have been forced to intermittently fast most of their life! What a hell it must have been!

That some were sometimes forced to fast for a few days is rather certain. But supposing that those who ate more than the optimal ration were advantaged implies that the lack of food would often last during weeks, because a healthy individual won’t die and won’t even get weakened in 15 days or even more without any food, whether he/she ate “more than the optimum” or  “just the optimum” previously.

I can’t imagine that they would very often have to fast for longer periods than that, since in an undamaged environment there’s always something to eat, be it at worst only insects, worms, roots or whatever. There are always shellfish at low tide, always fish in the lakes, rivers and seas, always small land animals, and always some carby food in a tropical jungle, especially in the jungles populated by apes, because the environment of animals co-evolves with them. Animals spread the seeds of their favorite foods, so the seeds give birth to trees that provide the fruits that feed the animal who spread the seed of those trees. Same for humans, we make orchards wherever we settle.

Plus our ancestors were highly mobile wanderers and they would have been stupid to remain long in a place where there was momentarily no food.

No, sorry, Inger and Alphagruis, I think more likely that eating too much is disadvantageous in every case and rather compromise the survival ability of an animal rather than improving it. Alphagruis assumption seems totally absurd to me.

I don’t know the causes of your failure with the instincto guidelines, but you can’t ascribe it to the instincto theory itself. I know, it is more easy than to ascribe it to oneself. Anyway, GCB has always emphasized the necessity to eat a minimum of modern fruits and to prefer the wildest ones avaiable. Fruits tend to accelerate the detox, but all the long term instinctos I know have no problem with fruits, in winter as well as in summer.

I am allfor instinctive nutrition if practised with wild local growing foods. Otherwise, a no no for me.
Of course, it’s ideal, we never said the contrary. But there must be in your area enough food to suit your needs. You think seafood is the best for us: I already asked you several times how you can eat “local” seafood when you live in the center of a continent, but never got any answer. It’s all for the best if you’re fully satisfied without fruits during several months. Personally I would have reverted to cooked food long ago if I my raw diet forbids me to eat food coming from somewhere else when there’s no fruit or even no suitable food around.  :(

BTW, here in Algarve  there are “locally grown” fruits the whole year, as I already mentioned. Most are grown 50 – 100 km away from my place. I wonder if it satisfies your “local” criterion.  :)

Can’t we stop this endless-loop argument that doesn’t go anywhere? What do you want to get out of this dialogue? What is your desired outcome here? ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2014, 04:58:30 am »
Actually, I find that the subject advice from GCB, "GCB: Eating meat too often could be harmful to health," has an inherent dictate about instinct that violates the basic premise of an instinctive appetite by meandering into the realm of "knowledge apart from instinct." To me, the advice is an attempt to makes the facts fit the evidence. Just my two cents worth.
Yes, according to what has been reported here, it appears that when GCB and his wife relied solely on "instinct" ("the alliesthetic senses") in the past, they developed one or more of warts, "keratinisations" or tumors. GCB reported that they had too much "meat gluttony". He is apparently trying figure out where his diet went wrong and engaging in a new consciously controlled experiment in which he eats less meat and more fatty insects. Regardless of what he calls it, he is now using his mind and making conscious choices, rather than just supposedly relying on his alliesthetic senses. As Inger indicated, this makes sense for those living in a modern environment instead of the wild.

So it's not just Inger that had problems on Instincto. GCB himself admitted that he failed in the past while trying to practice Instincto, which I commend him for doing. We can learn from failures, as well as successes. Maybe GCB is right and his past meat-heavy diet and vegan diet were deficient, and maybe insects will fill the gap, or maybe that will not be enough and one or more other gaps will remain. I hope his followers now see that GCB is himself still searching and experimenting and they shouldn't take his words (or those of any guru) as doctrine.

Quote
Telling Inger that she failed with what she thought was the right way to practice instinctive nutrition is dogmatic. If instinctotherapie requires "proper training with somebody experienced along," then there is something wrong with the theory.
Yes, my experience and that of many others has also been to be wary of dietary theories that require perfection or near-perfection to succeed. If a dietary approach is truly beneficial, it will not require perfection for success. There will be wiggle room.

Iguana, do you know what raw starchy foods (like chufas) and raw legumes other than cassia fistula GCB eats?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 05:06:30 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2014, 04:59:14 am »
Why is it necessary to exclude every premise that GCB did not expound on?
Who said it’s necessary?

Quote
Telling Inger that she failed with what she thought was the right way to practice instinctive nutrition is dogmatic. If instinctotherapie requires "proper training with somebody experienced along," then there is something wrong with the theory. Conversely, if there are many different outcomes in individuals following the instinctive eating method, then the theory is sound.
It doesn’t “requires "proper training with somebody experienced along", I said that I (personally) would very probably have been unable to succeed without proper training, explanations and discussions. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but it seems to be difficult. You’re an exception because you’re especially clever and logical. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2014, 05:40:41 am »
 
Yes, according to what has been reported here, it appears that when GCB and his wife relied solely on "instinct" ("the alliesthetic senses") in the past, they developed one or more of warts, "keratinisations" or tumors. GCB reported that they had too much "meat gluttony". He is apparently trying figure out where his diet went wrong and engaging in a new consciously controlled experiment in which he eats less meat and more fatty insects. Regardless of what he calls it, he is now using his mind and making conscious choices, rather than just supposedly relying on his alliesthetic senses. As Inger indicated, this makes sense for those living in a modern environment instead of the wild.

Of course, we all have to use our mind and knowledge, be it only to exclude all processed food, meat from grain and junk fed animals, choose the most wild fruits, etc, etc. Animals don’t have the  necessary knowledge and thus they automatically fall in the trap of processed food, they eat our garbage and cooked leftovers.

GCB thinks their meat gluttony was because they used to eat meat from domestic animals and this would not happen with wild game meat. Now he thinks the lack of insects could be an additional cause.   

Quote
Even GCB has already admitted that he himself failed in the past while trying to practice Instincto. Maybe GCB is right and his past meat-heavy diet and vegan diet were deficient, and maybe insects will fill the gap, or maybe that will not be enough and one or more other gaps will remain. I hope his followers now see that GCB is himself still searching and experimenting and they shouldn't take his words (or those of any guru) as doctrine.
He has always emphasized that, especially in his one week long seminars in which his theory was discussed as he encouraged us to relentlessly question every point of it.

Quote
Yes, my experience and that of many others has also been to be wary of dietary theories that require perfection or near-perfection to succeed. If a dietary approach is truly beneficial, it will not require perfection for success. There will be wiggle room.
Yeah, as I said, perfection doesn’t belong to this world! There are tremendous success with “instincto”, but only for a period limited to 45 –50  years, and we can not pretend to have reached perfection as there will always be room for some more fine tuning. The most important step would be to live in a tribe in the wild where we would hunt and gather ourselves our food! :) We are in permanent and never ending research. But I tend to get fed up of this and I let myself fall into a routine as I have other interests than nutrition, fortunately!
 
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Iguana, do you know what raw starchy foods (like chufas) and raw legumes other than cassia fistula GCB eats?
Not especially, but aren’t resistant starch very common in plants? Are there any in fruit skin? I like to eat some avocado and cherimoya skin, sometimes I feel like biting in avocados stone and eat a bit their stone’s skin, I’m fond of the small woody thing that is between a date and its branch, I eat a few durians' seeds when I happen to have durians, etc. I guess we won’t find these in any nutritional data table since these are not considered food!

About the title of this topic, there was another one written by Hanna who launched this thread, but I changed it twice to something more in tune with what GCB actually wrote in his answer to the article written by a vegan. Question for everyone: would you like it to be changed again? What do you suggest?   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:00:58 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2014, 06:01:25 am »
Quote
GCB thinks their meat gluttony was because they used to eat meat from domestic animals and this would not happen with wild game meat. Now he thinks the lack of insects could be an additional cause.
Yes, I understood that, thanks, and that jibes with what I wrote. The fact that even GCB got it wrong for many years should be a cautionary note to any "Instincto" who thinks he has it figured out now.

Quote
we can not pretend to have reached perfection
That wasn't quite my point. My point was that perfection should not be necessary and blaming someone's failure with Instincto totally on imperfect practice should raise questions about Instincto. When you see people blaming diet failures on the dieters, it's a clue to look for gaps in the diet. This perfectionist blaming is most common with overly restrictive diets that minimize or avoid important foods. Instincto is much less restrictive than most versions of chronic VLC, but I wonder if there is still a gap or two in GCB's current approach? His experiment with bee brood suggests that he is seeking where the gap might be.

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aren’t resistant starch very common in plants?
No, and especially not in the "Paleo" foods that are most commonly eaten. I didn't even know I was not getting much RS in my diet. That's why it's important to know which foods contain it. I rarely see RS-rich foods even get mentioned in this forum. At least you were familiar with chufas. Most of the foods that you, Inger and Sabertooth guessed might be rich in RS don't contain very much of it. I'm not criticizing, I just find that concerning. It wasn't until Muhammad Sunshine brought up the topic that I looked into it and became more aware of it myself.
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Are there any in fruit skin?
I doubt there's much.

Hasn't GCB ever discussed resistant starch and other prebiotics and the importance of feeding not just ourselves, but also our "Old Friends"?

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Question for everyone: would you like it to be changed again? What do you suggest?
I suppose it's OK, as most people don't think of insects when they think of meat, though they are roughly akin.

Technically, bee brood from a beekeeper is not normally wild either (at least not here in the USA, and my guess is that domesticated bee breeds would also be used there in Europe). So if he is eating more bee brood and less flesh meat, then instead of replacing domesticated meats with wild ones, he has likely replaced one type of domesticated meat with another.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:14:38 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2014, 06:43:02 am »
 
That wasn't quite my point. My point was that perfection should not be necessary and blaming someone's failure with Instincto totally on imperfect practice should raise questions about Instincto. When you see people blaming diet failures on the dieters, it's a clue to look for gaps in the diet. This perfectionist blaming is most common with overly restrictive diets that minimize or avoid important foods. I wonder if there is still a gap or two in GCB's current approach?
I’m not blaming Inger for what she reports as a failure!  She blames the theory and she’s promoting some theories of her own, which I question. She’s got it right on some points, but those points are not invaliding the instincto theory as she seems to imply.

A gap is certainly there by the fact that we don’t live in the wild among a tribe and don’t hunt nor gather our food ourselves. What to do? Some “instinctos” went to the jungle without bringing any food along, but their interesting experience had a limited duration. Any alternative?   

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Hasn't GCB ever discussed resistant starch and other prebiotics and the importance of feeding not just ourselves, but also our "Old Friends"?
I’m under the impression that it’s inherent to the very principles of “instincto” such as to avoid washing our food, avoid chlorinated water or distilled / sterilized  water, etc. I searched a few days ago in this forum if he wrote about fibers and found one post of his about it. I don’t think he ever mentioned resistant starch, which he may not be aware of the importance.  Orkos sells yakon, BTW.
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Technically, bee brood from a beekeeper is not normally wild either (at least not here in the USA, and my guess is that domesticated bee breeds would also be used there in Europe). So if he is eating more bee brood and less flesh meat, then instead of replacing domesticated meats with wild ones, he has likely replaced one type of domesticated meat with another.
Right! We must at least make sure that the beekeeper doesn't feed his bees with sugar. Sure, eating wild insects would be preferable.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2014, 07:28:50 am »
Could you share GCB's post on fiber?

I doubt that yacon contains much RS. That's one of the problems--most people are unaware of which foods contain substantial amounts of it, so we may not even be aware that we aren't consuming much of it. I wasn't aware of it myself until I read up on it.

Given that the bee brood isn't wild, it may not be the wildness of the meats that was the biggest problem. Perhaps it was more something else.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2014, 02:56:18 pm »
But I wish that I would not get drawn again in time consuming endless arguing with him because I already spent too much time here.

Iguana, why do you feel compelled to disprove any post which isn’t compatible with GCB’s teachings? No need to do that! Just let posts uncommented, let opinions, which deviate from each other, stand side by side. Allow a pluralism of opinions. Everyone can and should decide for himself.

Offline Iguana

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2014, 03:38:08 pm »
Right, Hanna. Alphagruis keeps on assaulting me and insulting me, thus i feel that I have to answer, especially when I know the truth is betrayed. Ok, maybe I'm wrong: i could let it go unanswered as well and live my live for myself.   ;) Would you like to have me out of this discussion? No problem, I will gladly leave.

Sorry Phil, I could not find again GCB's post on fiber. But I’m sure I did read it a few days ago.

Yes, perhaps it was another problem than the wildness of the meats, who knows? This suspicion is because wild meats have a stronger taste and thus would give more clear indications that we ate enough of it. He says he didn’t notice the same problem with wild meats consumption.   

Anyway, serious troubles only appeared after about 10 or 20 years of mamals' meat consumed daily in large amounts, so bee brood could be ok for a decade or two, which should be enough to let us get used to eat other insects as well!  ;D

By the way, I forgot yesterday to quote the post below, which is relevant to what was again brought forward in this thread. I’m sure our ancestors did not have much difficulties to climb high trees and Inger would have this ability as well!
 
A few weeks ago I talked on the phone with one of the three “instincto” guys who went in exploration without taking any food supplies into the primary rain forest where the orangutans live. I’m not sure if it was in Sumatra or in Borneo, I should ask him again but he lives in Jakarta and he was only shortly in France.

Anyway… I asked him what they found to eat in this jungle. He said they ate almost only fruits, various species of unknown wild fruits and he said it was not a problem because their trip lasted only 10 days. The fruits were high in the trees, so they had to climb after having thrown a rope.

And last week a met the father of an instincto family who lived  half a year in French Guyana. I also asked him what food they found in the Amazonian primary forest. He said there is about 150 different species of wild fruits, also all high in the trees.

I hope it will not trigger another round of endless-loop argument (edit: following Hanna's advice, I will no longer answer).  Inger, you keep on repeating in this section that “instincto” didn’t work for you and that the theory is flawed in your view. I’m all for questioning the theory, it’s even highly recommended and necessary. But when a point has already been adequately addressed, it’s a waste of time and energy to bring forward the same invalid argument over and over again without taking into account the answers already given.

If you were relentlessly repeating in the “general discussion” section that raw paleo didn’t work for you and that the basic theory of raw paleo is flawed, you would be categorized as orthorexic or troll by Geoff!  ;D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 03:48:06 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2014, 04:14:20 pm »
Quote
Would you like to have me out of this discussion? No problem, I will gladly leave.
No. Make your points, but don’t feel compelled to repeat yourself over and over again. Follow your instinctive stop also in discussions, so in case you are fed up with a discussion, let it go for a time.

Phil, you seem to imply that RS is superior to (other) prebiotics. Why? I put the same question in your thread about ZC/VLC.

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #118 on: March 02, 2014, 04:27:00 pm »
BTW, thanks to Alphagruis for reminding us (me) of his points and discussing them again.

Quote
GCB himself admitted that he failed in the past while trying to practice Instincto, which I commend him for doing. We can learn from failures, as well as successes. Maybe GCB is right and his past meat-heavy diet and vegan diet were deficient, and maybe insects will fill the gap, or maybe that will not be enough and one or more other gaps will remain. I hope his followers now see that GCB is himself still searching and experimenting and they shouldn't take his words (or those of any guru) as doctrine.

Yes, thanks to GCB for giving us (me) hints that even the meat of wild animals if eaten up to the stop had negative effects on him in the long run.

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #119 on: March 02, 2014, 11:32:28 pm »
Iguana, Overconsumption of meat is just one side of the coin. The other side is the foods that are being underconsumed due to the overconsumption. GCB is currently guessing insects, but what if there is one or more other types of foods that he and his wife were underconsuming? Lots of peoples around the world do fairly well while not eating insects, so that doesn't seem to be the primary suspect, does it?

Hanna, Good question; I don't talk so much about RS being superior to other prebiotics (though it does have its own special benefits) as that it's the prebiotic that most often tends to be minimized or even excluded from a variety of diets in the ways they are commonly practiced, including raw Paleo, cooked Paleo, VLC, the SAD, and fruit-heavy diets like 80-10-10. The fact that GCB has apparently never even discussed it speaks volumes about this. I knew next to nothing about RS myself until Muhammad Sunshine brought it up.

Why are people fine with talking about inulin, but their guard goes up when RS is mentioned? In thinking back, I think the word "starch" in the term was a little bit of a red flag for me, and I'm guessing that it is for other people too. Luckily, I had already read about hunter gatherers eating the foods that contain RS, including even Eskimos, so I was not totally close-minded to the notion that it might be beneficial and I eventually gave it a try, thank heavens. In retrospect, it seems odd that I didn't instantly leap at the potential opportunity, given that I was looking at the time for a way to fix the underlying problems that were contributing to my poor carb tolerance (smacks own head). I think part of the problem for me was that I had tried consuming plenty of other high "fiber" foods in the past without benefit, and sometimes things even got worse (such as with "bran" fiber), and probably assumed that this would be another case of the same. "Fiber" can be another red flag word, with Konstantin Monastyrsky even writing a book entitled "Fiber Menace."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:46:50 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2014, 12:36:41 am »
/Users/vanphillips/Desktop/The Ketogenic Diet for Health_ similarities between germ-free mice and ketogenic humans.eml

I hope you can open this page, it speaks about ketogenic diets and the benefits from  a low bacteria populated intestine.  I still think the jury is out.  I plan on suggesting to Jeff that he look for correlations between those that were breast fed and those that haven't gone on extensive or frequent doses of antibiotics and gut bacteria.   For I've witnessed a consistent connection with breast fed peoples and gut health.  I bet you weren't breast fed, or have used antibiotics frequently throughout your years.   Feeding a gut that wasn't intact with healthy bacteria from being breast fed, and you're feeding all sort of critters, good and bad, with the Hopes that the good will out compete the bad....   And I understand that his group studied were naturally breast fed.
    If you look at Iguana's post a few back he states again that GCB states the problems came from eating LARGE amounts of meat Daily.  Take out the LARGE amounts and replace with adequate amounts and the equation might be wholly different.  I think GCB, as I've mentioned before is suspect more for this than looking at RS, or maybe we can agree that he was suspect in not looking at both.   When I discussed with Ron Rosedale the diet of the BEAR, he was convinced he'd contract cancer again, due to the high protein intake. He believes it's that toxic to the system long term.    In the summer months, when there's green grass available in wisconsin,  I eat mostly buffalo.   These are the same specie of buffalo that roamed the plains hundreds of years ago.  The same that the american plains indians ate.  They haven't been messed with.   Little if any stop with eating that meat, as compared to domestic beef...  And that's because I moderate my protein intake.  Maybe if I ate a pound or two at a sitting, there might be.
    It's funny,  we all know that too much sugar is harmful, too much wine will get you drunk, too much salt... but too much meat or protein, and people (Instinctos) can't seem to at least wonder, I guess their faith in the 'stop' overrides.
   So far the only food group that doesn't seem to be a problem for the body in excess is fat, other than loose stools reported by some.  But I haven't read any accounts where GCB has even had the chance to experiment with 'excess' fat from animals.  But my opinion is that one who eats a lot fruit can't simply start eating large amounts of fat, nor will there be any inclination to do so, for the body won't be able to use it as fuel or energy.  That takes days or weeks for the body to acclimate.  Iguana doesn't seem to understand this idea, as if it's mine alone.  I think that misunderstanding comes from not having much interest in anything outside Instincto guidelines.  As there is much literature available on the subject.
     And one final word about Jeff's  group,  they eat millions of bacteria with their food, and I'm guessing that you've assumed that they include RS with their food.  So not only were they breast fed, but they also support that ever-changing balance of gut bacteria by eating foods like raw colon ect.. full of microbes. 
     

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2014, 12:37:24 am »
darn, the article didn't post,  I'll try again,,

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2014, 01:58:26 am »
Iguana, Overconsumption of meat is just one side of the coin. The other side is the foods that are being underconsumed due to the overconsumption. GCB is currently guessing insects, but what if there is one or more other types of foods that he and his wife were underconsuming? Lots of peoples around the world do fairly well while not eating insects, so that doesn't seem to be the primary suspect, does it?
I read once that people eats a significant amount of insects (don't remember the figure given) per year in processed foods such as fruit juices, jams, beer, ground thyme, etc.

It seems that in "instincto" we eat the broadest range and variety of foods amongst all types of raw diets. There's no limit to the variety of foods we eat and one tends to constantly widen that range when discovering a new edible thing. But most of us have a cultural aversion to eat worms and insects!
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2014, 09:30:41 am »
March 02 reply by Alphagruis / Gerard:

Author : instincto drivel ( even more) (IP: 90.6.28.226 , AStrasbourg-752-1-9-226.w90-6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
Whois  : http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/90.6.28.226

Well one more post since one person at least seems in resonance with what I pointed out. 

« This is precisely why I think the instincto theory does not work.

And why I believe in seasonal eating + naturally occurring food sources. I tried the 24/7 instincto Eden... and the experiment failed pretty badly »

Thanks Inger for this highly relevant comment and BTW happy to see you’re in so great shape.

The very roots of the dramatic failure of the instincto experiment carried out in Europe become so obvious once one acknowledges this simple fact.   

Indeed seasonal eating of locally produced and available food is precisely effective a way in balancing ones diet merely because it mimics and restores to a great extent the conditions of the wild our ancestors lived in.  It puts precisely in a natural way the necessary environmental constraints on us so that a balanced diet and vibrant health might eventually emerge.

Various constraints, I once already evoked repeatedly but there is an old saying….

Obviously this phenomenon is by no means a matter of individual abilities or « instinct »

A similar example of how the constraints at work in the wild led just by themselves to a balanced diet is the phenomenon of the usual and necessary practice of « nose to tail » eating of the animals that were hunted or raised. For instance, muscle is rich in methionine and skin, bone…rich in glycine and so being forced to eat, EVEN IF LESS TASTY, the whole animal results automatically in a balanced glycine to methionine ratio and more generally a balanced nutrition can naturally emerge in this way.

In this respect it is now clearly apparent how instincto’s usual choice by senses and usual relevant muscle meat mania, made possible in modern affluent civilized world, turns out, more or less rapidly, to be a fatal practice and blatant disaster.

Particularly, as it has been found that methionine restriction has life-extending properties.

Finally, it appears that eating insects instead of meat, might indeed correct the imbalances evoked above (and plaguing often instinctos) since one necessarily eats whole insects.

In recent years I ate insects in Africa and other tropical areas, it’s usual there but it’s never a staple.

Yet, insects are usually VERY tasty. So I’m afraid Burger or instinctos are going to overeat such stuff too in their planned "experiments".

PS I won't come back to the forum. I'm only very temporarily in civilized country with internet. Greetings.

And thank you very much Edwin.
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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2014, 09:32:23 am »
March 02 a few hours later reply by Alphagruis / Gerard:

Author : instincto drivel ( even more) (IP: 90.6.28.226 , AStrasbourg-752-1-9-226.w90-6.abo.wanadoo.fr)

An answer to Eveheart’s question :

"What was the reason they ate too much muscle meat?"

Undoubtedly it’s because we have to LEARN a lot of things in modern environment in order to eat and stay healthy, in particular, what foods to eat and how much (as well as to LEARN to eat a given food never eaten before).  And they didn’t do this because of  instincto theory, hammered into their heads by Burger, and that foolishely states that they are supposed to find out so much better by themselves by means of encoded sensory signals or an omnipotent « instinct ».

Yet the bitter truth is that finding this out is by no means « instinctive » . More precisely though « innate » as well as learned sensory attractions and repulsions exist indeed they are just by far not capable to do the job. For many people fat and organs not to speak of brain, tail, skin, blood etc are much less attractive and easier to (over)eat than "matured " muscle meat, and so were even often not made available at all to instinctos.

By the way "matured" muscle meat, an addiction of those instinctos, is rather a non paleo thing.
Impossible to achieve it, for instance in a typical African village, without a fridge and connection to an electric grid and modern technology.  Meat or fish there in wet 30°C ambiant ROT in a few hours. In contrast in such villages people know perfectly well by CULTURE and NECESSITY that they have to eat everything in an animal or a fish and, once they have learned to do so as kids  they do it with great relish.
Once again both culture and/or environmental constraints are indispensable and conspire to achieve dietary balance, not a matter of sensory signals.

So from what I got upon reading some of your posts, Eve, unlike the unfortunate instinctos, you have most likely greatly benefited precisely from experience , knowledge and thus CULTURE gathered outside the instinctosphere in particular in America about how to balance a diet rich in animal food.

I feel also that you clearly understand that low carb is by ESSENCE not instincto, as once practised in Europe, which included by the way also usually a tremendous overeating of fruit and fructose and not even much RS which as Paleophil underlines might be important. Africans eat much more of it because their staples are tubers and not fruit.

Moreover, Eve, nor do you practise instincto just because you’re using sensory signals when eating. We should use them again but they cannot  by themselves rule food choice and intake.

So I’m not at all surprised by you succeeding with your diet.

With respect to what i pointed out above, please note also the tremendous instincto arrogance and scorn as to « dietetics » or simply any scientific knowledge gathered about diet and food properties that is repeatedly unleashed for instance in recent rants for instance in following links. This might perhaps help you to understand why instinctos were so reluctant to learn anything about conventional diet and food science. "Your organism knows so..ooo much better" they were told.

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/welcoming-commitee/introduction-and-free-copy-of-my-just-published-paleo-book/msg118688/#msg118688

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/gcb-eating-meat-is-harmful/msg119523/#msg119523

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/gcb-eating-meat-is-harmful/msg119810/#msg119810

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/gcb-eating-meat-is-harmful/msg119812/#msg119812


As can also be seen, with respect to « dietetics », Burger, after an amusing rant about ideologies and dogmatic thinking of others and that obviously first of all is so nicely and funnily relevant to instincto itself, reminds us again :

« That's why I was looking for a different approach: extract the answers from the organism, and to consider always the results objectively. »

And this is precisely the reason of instincto failure because as I hope it’s now fairly clear the yet missing answers (in instincto theory) cannot unfortunately be found in but be looked for outside of our organism.
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