Author Topic: Instinctive nutrition and the Army  (Read 7324 times)

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Offline Ungullible

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Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« on: February 16, 2014, 11:29:34 pm »
For those who still think Burger may  claim the paternity of instinctive nutrition,  a  few stunning  photos taken during a Marine Corps survival exercice in the jungle, will  show why this topic has been a constant matter of interest for military scientists .

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/2c98e8e2-949b-11e3-b013-fd5b00a9bd3b/Les_militaires_apprennent_%C3%A0_survivre_dans_la_jungle#.UwDNQ_l5NZ4


If the link does not work, type the following in google  images  "marine soldiers cobra survival jungle "

That reminds me that a US navy pilot  shot down behind the lines during the Serbia war  managed to survive during two weeks by using the "taste and spit" technique which is the same as the one detailed  by Burger in his introductory  course.  I'm surprised Burger did  not claim royalties to the US Navy, since he is , presumably,  the one who completely  re-discovered our instinct   ;D

Many physicians who developped the concept of instinctive nutrition, such as TL Cleave,  belonged to the Navy ( be it the french navy, the Royal Navy or the Reichsmarine ) or to the Army in general.

Since obeying to one's  food instinct is nothing but the  hygienic embodiment of the concept of  obedience to the natural order/ natural law,   military staff had  deep rooted cultural reasons  to be interested in the topic, beyond the mastering of survival techniques. 
 



"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 01:01:51 am »
Ok, by pasting "marine soldiers cobra survival jungle " into Google we get funny photos of these guys apparently drinking snake’s blood.

For TL Cleave, Wikipedia says: "Thomas Latimer (Peter) Cleave (1906–1983) was a surgeon captain who researched the negative health effects of consuming refined carbohydrate (notably sugar and white flour) which would not have been available during early human evolution."

Then what? Does it mean this Thomas L. Cleave developed the concept of instinctive nutrition? LOL!

For your guidance, Burger never “claimed the paternity of instinctive nutrition” because he reckons that it had been practiced during hundreds millions years by all the animals and our hominid / human ancestors! You’ve been pretending for 30 years  ;D  on some French forums that GCB is a plagiarist but you’ve systematically refused to provide a single verifiable valid reference!

The fact is rather the opposite: he’s been  plagiarized several times, but he doesn’t care.  :) 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 01:17:40 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 07:56:05 am »
François, we have had the discussion before. 


1) The Nasa report on food instinct published in the mid 50's (at a time when all their physicians were military trained) ,  and Cleave's 1956 paper on the forgetfullness of the natural principles of medicine indicates that military physicians were actively pursuing the idea  in order to understand how our food instinct works. The question has always been a constant matter of interest  amongst military physicians for decades. Do you seriously think their collective  intelligence might have been surpassed by that of  GC Burger  ? You must be joking .
 
2) Even though Cleave does not mention the names of other  physicians involved in his circle, the fact that he takes for granted the existence of our food instinct in his 1956 paper  ( ie  without questionning its existence as the vast  majority of non military nutrition experts would have it ) means that  his paper was following up on previous research.  Which previous research ? I give you a hint :  in Germany in the mid 1950's , many german physicians were trying to hide their military activity during WWII .

3) His 1956 paper signals what Cleave's  considers as a breakthrough idea : the hypothesis of the  incompatibility of our  food  instinct  with  mechanically  denatured raw food.   

I don't know of any naturopath in the history of hygienism who can claim to have made a single medical breaktrough.   Discoveries are made by professional researchers and scientists, not by naturopaths.  However naturopaths have a great advantage over scientists : they generally  know that the road to success means abusing  their public with their alleged originality. The  partition they are playing has always been written by true scientists. 

So where are the names of the true composers  of the instinctive symphony ? You are like a small boy waving a record in your hand and shouting 
" The Polonaises ! Great Music ! Written by Arthur Rubinstein. Listen to Rubinstein. What a marvelous musician he was !  "
Then someone tells  you
" No, that's Chopin's  Polonaises.  Rubinstein was a gifted pianist but he was not a composer. Chopin wrote the partition and Rubinstein simply interpreted it "
And you reply  to him
 "I don't know about your Chopin.  I don't see Chopin's name on the jacket.  So it is Rubinstein's. That's what is written on the  jacket and that's his portrait on the album "


Finally I will not disagree with your idea that Burger has probably  been plagiarised many times. Originality is quite rare and plagiarism is everywhere.


 
 

"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 04:31:01 pm »

2) Even though Cleave does not mention the names of other  physicians involved in his circle, the fact that he takes for granted the existence of our food instinct in his 1956 paper  ( ie  without questionning its existence as the vast  majority of non military nutrition experts would have it ) means that  his paper was following up on previous research.  Which previous research ? I give you a hint :  in Germany in the mid 1950's , many german physicians were trying to hide their military activity during WWII .

So, you’re still on your ridiculous story that the “instincto diet” origin is due to “Nazi pedophiles” (LOL!) which were plagiarized by GCB?  ;D

Quote
3) His 1956 paper signals what Cleave's  considers as a breakthrough idea : the hypothesis of the  incompatibility of our  food  instinct  with  mechanically  denatured raw food.

Very interesting. What are the references of this paper (title, name and date of publication, etc.)? Can you share with us the relevant and properly referenced excerpts?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 04:49:10 am »
You must have missed the post by PaleoPhil on this forum .

Here  is the link  to his post (and  my  reply half amused, half ironic )

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/tl-'peter'-cleave's-1956-instincto-like-'natural-law'/

A couple of years ago, I visited the Royal Navy Medical Center where Cleave ended his career (in Worthing West Sussex )   and met with the local librarian. He found it quite amusing that a french researcher would do research on the history of  raw diet and food instinct. Obviously this  was not his vision of  a typical frenchie . Guess what : the Royal Navy  has been  financing a  research unit on "survival medicine"  in Worthing for ages.

If you think food instinct is not a constant  matter of interest for military medicine ( civilian medicine admittedly couldn't care less) ,  it's time for you to consult a military physician.....   



 


"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 05:58:47 am »
No, I had seen it but didn’t remember the details and the name of the guy.

Yes, it’s good to see the idea that humans’ alimentary instinct still works with raw unprocessed foods had been suggested before GCB thought about it. It doesn’t mean that he has not discovered it from scratch and that he’s a plagiarist as you pretend. He would certainly be glad to know that other people came partially to similar conclusions. There’s nothing new under the sun: logical ideas are ubiquitous. Anyway, I doubt very much  this T.L. Cleave also developed the same completely new theories about bacteria / viruses, immune system response (tolerance – intolerance), autoimmune diseases, etc. as GCB did.   

Whatever the case, such parallelism in discoveries constantly happen. It even happened to myself twice: in both cases I thought I had invented a new way to associate a diesel engine and a turbomachine,  but later discovered that some engineers had the very same ideas several years ago. Some prototypes were build in the 50’s and worked just as I had calculated. On one hand I was a bit disappointed that I hadn’t invented anything new, but on the  other hand I was glad that my concept was proven perfectly sound and worked fine.

An engineer friend of mine developed what everyone “skilled in the art” thought was a “new and never seen before” concept of variable compression ratio engine. One day, as we were discussing about it, I asked him:
- Are you sure your idea is new?
He couldn’t say he was absolutely sure. Then I searched in the series of books translated in English that I had found and bought in Colombo: a Russian guy had published  those books in Moscow after spending his whole life to classify mechanisms.  It took me a few minutes to find the page where the crankgear mechanism invented by my friend had been described, long before he developed the concept! He was rather taken aback…!

Note: fortunately we have Phil to provide a reference, since you never provided any!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:26:46 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 08:42:47 am »
 "it’s good to see the idea that humans’ alimentary instinct still works with raw unprocessed foods had been suggested before GCB thought about it."

You must be kidding. The idea that our instinct has been designed specifically  for raw food (and only for raw food)  has been around for centuries, and is certainly one of the  hotest  topics in the history of both  scientific and naturopathic hygienism.

If you read "Lectures on the science of human life" by Sylvester Graham (1839) , you will find that the whole book deals with the matter  of  human food instinct although from a purely vegetarian/biblical/puritan/naturopathic point of view .  Now if you turn away from naturopathic litterature to scientific litterature produced by (then) contemporary military physicians  (during the so-called "Romantic" period) you will find  equivalent  treatises on food instinct  written from a non vegetarian /non puritan/spiritual  perspective. Obviously their goals and their audience  were not the same :  while Graham was trying to catch the largest possible audience to evangelize masses of american drunkards, military physicians were trying to elaborate a  theory of human food instinct  putting together elements from various disciplines, to call the attention of fellow scientists.   Graham was making a business while military physicians were working behind the curtains.

Military physicians of the XIXth c. remained unimpressed by the then rising tide of vegetarian sects and their failed attempt (by Graham and the likes) to "take over" the idea of food instinct. It is an historical fact that vegetarianism , as an hygienist theory , litteraly came "out of the blue"  at  the beginning of the  XIXth century,  without any  historical precedent  in the western world (apart from  the so- called phytagorean sect ).  Military physicians who  adhered to the  age- old (warfare like )  tradition of  instinctive hygienism,  had no reason to abandon their  omnivorous stronghold  for a more fashionable  vegetarian theory of human food instinct.

Both currents of  thought (the "naturo-vegetarian" and the "militaro-omnivorous") remained opposed. But this did not prevent them from sharing all sorts of heretical findings/hypothesis on other medical subjects.   


"I doubt very much  this T.L. Cleave also developed the same completely new theories about bacteria / viruses, immune system response (tolerance – intolerance), autoimmune diseases, etc. as GCB did."

You must be kidding. Burger has no more invented those theories  than he has invented the durian or the idea of food instinct. In every field of science , you will find heretic minds who constantly  produce heretic theories which can be made compatible with an heretic food hygiene theory . You may even find scientific medical  journals publishing research papers  which are considered too hypothetical or too  heretical to be published in mainstream scientific journals. The choice is yours : if you need an alternative, all-encompassing, theory in the field of virology, immunology, allergology, I can fetch a dozen  for you.

Cultural differences also account for the variety of alternative theories. In allergology , the UK approach to natural "immunization"  against environmental antigens has gone as far as recommending to  shake the dust bag of your vacuum cleaner above the nose of your baby  so that his immune system may be in touch with natural antigens at the earliest stage of his life. From a french physician  point of view , this recommendation may border  on  insanity . 

Have you done any research  in history of immunology to determine whether Burger is a true genius or a mere plagiarist ? 

   
"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 09:29:08 am »
You say "Paleophil gives references and I don't" . That's perfectly  true.

But look here : Paleophil  does not  appear to make sense of his discovery about  Cleave's paper.   On the one hand, he realizes that Cleave and Burger share the same theoretical background/ source of inspiration  (which is obviously true). On the other hand , he is confused by the fact that Cleave, contrary to Burger, does not recommend to follow a purely raw diet.

 Paleophil does not seem to understand that :
a) had Cleave  concluded his article by proposing to adhere to a strictly raw diet, his article might have been rejected by the editors  of the medical journal .
b) Cleave's intention was not to create a raw food sectarian movement,  but simply to promote fresh ideas on how the  food instinct  theory could inspire physicians to help improve the daily fare of the average english household.

So I'm helping  you realize the importance of CLeave's paper, and its significance for the  history of food instinct. 


"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 04:47:50 pm »
OK, we won’t start it all over again in English. For those interested in your stance that GCB is vile plagiarist, here is the link to the comprehensive witness given by Jean-Daniel Delévaux who has been there ever since the very beginning of the instinctive nutrition development in 1964 and closely took part in this research along with his friends Guy-Claude Burger and wife Nicole. The answer of GCB is also there, 2 posts below.
http://paleocru.rawpaleodietforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,27.msg459.html#msg459
Google translation
http://tinyurl.com/qhzeaov

You obviously have a personal grudge with GCB. I guess he offend you somehow and you’ve been seeking vengeance for a quarter of a century! Or perhaps you’re so bitter that despite your terrific intelligence you couldn’t discover yourself what he discovered, thus you assume he couldn’t possibly discover it himself out of the blue from scratch…

So, according to you, it’s now military physicians who pioneered the instincto! What about the Nazi pedophils or the “right wing Christian” (LOL) you talked about previously in your senseless rants?

Cleave's intention was not to create a raw food sectarian movement

If you mean that GCB is a plagiarist whose intention was “to create a raw food sectarian movement”, that is a plain defamation which will require the locking of this this topic. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:02:17 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2014, 07:14:20 am »
...Paleophil  does not  appear to make sense of his discovery about  Cleave's paper.   On the one hand, he realizes that Cleave and Burger share the same theoretical background/ source of inspiration  (which is obviously true). On the other hand , he is confused by the fact that Cleave, contrary to Burger, does not recommend to follow a purely raw diet.

 Paleophil does not seem to understand that :
a) had Cleave  concluded his article by proposing to adhere to a strictly raw diet, his article might have been rejected by the editors  of the medical journal .
b) Cleave's intention was not to create a raw food sectarian movement,  but simply to promote fresh ideas on how the  food instinct  theory could inspire physicians to help improve the daily fare of the average english household.
If Cleave avoided "proposing to adhere to a strictly raw diet" because "his article might have been rejected," then that doesn't mean I'm confused or don't understand, it means only that Cleave did not include that proposal.

Since I have no dog in this hunt and you two have access to information that I do not, I'll leave this debate to you two.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 08:14:47 pm »
Iguana : you might have an engineering background, you seem to be lacking some basics in history.

a) Amongst all the areas of medical specialization, military medicine is the one who values the  most the tradition and  the knowledge from  the past. 
b) Even though it would be hard to demonstrate, it is very likely that, compared to other medical specialties,  it has been thoroughly moved/ infused by  Christian values for a much longer period of time .
c) It is an undisputed fact that there has always been a greater proportion of devout Christians  in the profession of arms than in any other professions. This is true throughout the Christian world, and it is also true in France.
d) unless you prove me wrong (my documentation might not be complete), the only article favourable to  paleo diet (not to instincto though ) which was ever published in  a french newspaper ( the latter term to be understood as "journal d'opinion politique", ie excluding scientific magazines ) was published in a far right newspaper with a strong  "catholique nationaliste"  leaning  called "Minute".
e) On the other hand, if you want to know what the French  Christian leftist press think of paleo diet, you have to buy the  December 2013 issue of Golias ( I have the pdf file of the issue) . A perfect illustration of the old saying which goes that  journalism is about talking on  issues on which you don't have the slightest clue; and a sad exemple of french gloubi boulga intended to scare the most destitute and generous  minds amongst our compatriots.

One thing the Golias  journalist has perfectly understood, however,  is that there must be  somehow  a link between the sectarian movements of Dr Joyeux (a French Catho-traditionalist,  cancer specialist, who openly favors an all-raw diet) and the likes of  Burger, Comby , the cereal free movement ..... However, I'm afraid this link goes well beyond his reckoning capacity. As much as it goes well beyond your reckoning capacity.     
"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 08:17:24 pm »
c) It is an undisputed fact that there has always been a greater proportion of devout Christians  in the profession of arms than in any other professions. This is true throughout the Christian world, and it is also true in France.
What about the clergy profession?  :D
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2014, 01:31:48 am »
I think it doesn't matter who was the one to put the dietary instinct to light first, be it GCB or the army...

Earth didn't start rotating around the Sun when Copernicus discovered heliocentrism, as evolution did not take its first step when Darwin initially published his works on it.
It doesn't matter as long as the individuals remain enlightened and truthful in their sayings and writings.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2014, 02:02:04 am »
Absolutely! It matters for Ungullible only.  ;)  It even matters so much to him that he's been unsuccessfully searching in ancient obscure texts during about 25 years to try to prove that GCB is a plagiarist...

He even offered  1000 € to get a recording of one of GCB seminars and paid that amount to... GCB himself who gladly send it on a CD!  But we haven't got any news about it ever since. ROFL! ;D
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2014, 02:14:58 am »

It doesn't matter as long as the individuals remain ...... truthful in their sayings and writings.

That's the whole point of the story. When you know someone is a pretender,  it is easier for people to keep their critical sense awaken ( admittely, there are great individual differences in this respect  ).   


 
"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )

Offline eveheart

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2014, 02:41:14 am »
Earth didn't start rotating around the Sun when Copernicus discovered heliocentrism,...

... and further to punctuate the excellent point you are making, Copernicus is said to have been influenced by drawings and texts in Latin translations of the works of medieval Islamic astronomers, who made heliocentric orbital observations centuries earlier.

That's the whole point of the story. When you know someone is a pretender,  it is easier for people to keep their critical sense awaken ( admittely, there are great individual differences in this respect ).

If we are to be on the lookout for these so-called pretenders, then every paleo diet book that arose after the first observation of the diet of paleolithic man would fall under suspicion.

GCB wrote a set of guidelines for modern man to rediscover instinctive eating. The book would not be needed by someone who was on a survival exercise in a jungle, but it helped clarify instinctive eating for me, living here in California's third largest city. His term, instinctotherapie, while a little too French for my everyday use, was useful when I read English translations of his works.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2014, 04:25:33 am »
... and further to punctuate the excellent point you are making, Copernicus is said to have been influenced by drawings and texts in Latin translations of the works of medieval Islamic astronomers, who made heliocentric orbital observations centuries earlier.

That is perfectly true. According to wikipedia the first mention of heliocentrism dates back even further: it was originally mentioned in an Indian text that was written in between the ninth and thirteenth century before Jesus-Christ! Personally I think they already had the intuition Earth turned around the Sun even in the prehistoric era, man already trying to figure out the mysteries of this giant ball of light in the sky...
Anyway I should've probably written "rediscovered heliocentrism" instead. Thanks for pointing that out Eve   :)

Offline eveheart

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2014, 07:31:50 am »
Anyway I should've probably written "rediscovered heliocentrism" instead.

Not at all. Your example shows that, in discovery, only the expression is new. The truth that is discovered was always there, and must be discovered anew all the time.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Ungullible

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Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2014, 08:01:34 pm »
He even offered  1000 € to get a recording of one of GCB seminars and paid that amount to... GCB himself who gladly send it on a CD!  But we haven't got any news about it ever since. ROFL! ;D

Hold your breath  Iguana :  I'll retire in a couple of years. I will then have ample time to immerse myself again in Burgers' introductory course, to prepare my  future seminars on food instinct in a scientific, religious and political perspective.
The seminars will be given alternatively in french and english and they  will cover several centuries in the history of physiology and medicine, until the death of those german physicians who were trained during the nazi era.   

For the time being, I have several other irons in the fire.
"De tous les animaux, l'homme est celui qui se sert le moins de son instinct ; et pourtant c'est celui qui est le plus malade" (  un doyen de la Faculté de Médecine de Paris, un demi-siècle avant la naissance de Sarkozy )