Author Topic: Instincto`s tropical paradise  (Read 31151 times)

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Offline Hanna

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Instincto`s tropical paradise
« on: July 11, 2010, 03:19:17 am »
Since my questions tend to be forgotten, I open up a new thread.

Gcb said that our instinct has to be trained, because "we are no longer placed in an environment close to the one where our genome evolved, thus a series of precautions must be taken". My question: When and where did the instincto species eating durian, cempedak, jackfruit, banana, dates, safu, avocado... live? Where was this tropical paradise and when did it exist? Were the instinctos living there apelike or already human?

Offline Inger

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 04:45:21 am »
 -X

This is a very intresting question indeed, Hanna.

Thanks for asking (I do not have the answer though.. hoping some Instinctos will reply).

Inger

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 06:06:13 am »
This is my current leading theory behind it.

There was truly a golden age in human memory.  And this is regurgitated in many world religions.

It is connected to the very recent ancient recorded cataclysms, catastrophes.
You know, we used to be in a binary system.
Saturn was our fixed sun.
There was a plasma haze that covered the earth.
There were no stars recorded and no planets until late in recent history.
Our 365 day calendar is so new, so much has changed.

See www.thunderbolts.info for details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-46CJ5Pt7U


------------------

See http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QUANTAVOL/Q_intro/intro.pdf

Quote
ALFRED DE GRAZIA
QUANTAVOLUTION AND CATASTROPHE
Introduction to the series

Charles Darwin said in 1869 in the "Origin of Species" that "anyone whose disposition leads him to attach more weight to unexplained difficulties than to the explanation of a certain number of facts will certainly reject my theory." For a long time it seemed unwise to weigh too heavily the anomalies. Now the time has arrived when "unexplained difficulties" have become indeed too many for the Darwinian model of gradual incre-mental Evolution by natural selection to support. It should be replaced by a theory of Quantavolution. Or, at least, it should be placed up against a contrasting model.

Quantavolution theory maintains that the world from its beginnings, including the world of life and humanity, has changed largely by quantum leaps, rather than by tiny incre-ments over great stretches of time. The over two million words of this collection of works by the author and collaborators present the full range of ideas and phenomena that pertain to this theory. It may be well to warn promptly against claiming any relationship to quantum field theory in physics, although dire consequences to gravitation concepts may inhere, because of the seeming all-sufficiency of new electromagnetic theory. Such a global change of perspective requires a search for new evidence, a reformulation of old evidence, a reconsideration of anomalies, changes in meanings of words and phrases, explora-tions of etymologies of words and concepts, and a reexamination of assumptions, often when they are so accepted as to be trite and so trite as to be ignored -- removed, indeed, from our very cognitive structures.

For example, there is an immense idea that persists in the litera-ture to the effect that the Moon was torn from the Earth; this story is told not only by scientists such as George Darwin and George Fisher but also by myths of various cultures. Invariably, if a discussion of the matter is allowed at all, the posited event is positioned in time billions of years ago in the conventionally agreed upon youth of the Earth. Such an event, if it were to be treated seriously in an encyclopedia, would invade hundreds of articles with its causes and effects, changing practically every discipline in ways great and small. This set of works does not treat this idea alone as the true theory; but it considers it properly so serious as to warrant consideration under many headings.

Such theories of "quantavolution" play a part in all discussions as to the origin of the other bodies of the solar system; one needs to explain the considerations that have led serious scholars to ask whether and how the planets originated from the Sun or, if not, then from one or another of themselves (such as Jupiter). Furthermore, the universal belief of ancient cultures and legends, that the gods were born, and were members of the same family, would begin to stir our interest.

In many cultures, there is said to have been an original chaos or world vapor and a catastrophic event from which the father of the gods was born and from him (or her) was born the suc-cession of gods. Why "born" instead of having always been in existence? It is not enough to say that these phrases are only analogies with the birth of animals in nature, or only fairy tales based on the analogies. Why should this be? Many analogies cover realities: might this be such a case? When one says, "Babies are born like puppies," one certainly is not denying that babies are born. And why were all of these gods identified, if of any importance, with the planets and other sky bodies?. Most, if not all, cultures, have insisted that the planets and other sky bodies are divinities. Does this not lend support to the hypothesis of a true succession of birth throes in the heavens? Would this be evidence of a marvellous early philosophical synthesis connecting the birth of the cosmos to that of the members of an earthly family? No matter if the alarming thought should arise: the members of the solar system arose somehow from one another in a series of catastrophes that somehow early humankind had some knowledge or theory about.

This is the kind of reasoning that unsettles many scientists and ordinary people who are content to rest with their ordinary per-spectives on the universe; it is a "whistle-blower" on the prevailing paradigm of the sciences and the humanities, calling back the play to the line of scrimmage.

The catastrophes responsible for the development of the theory of quantavolution were immensely greater than these, to be sure, but the elemental forces at work, the chemistry, the electricity, the psychic reactions are typical and homologous. As with a host of experiences of the past and present, the individual person must learn about catastrophes of the world -- past, present, and future -- from the testimony of the rocks, the skies, the fossils, the carvings, the ruins, and then from recorded history and logical thought.

The theory of Quantavolution deals with the behavior of substances of the real world so far as one can sense them. It proposes that change in nature and life occur largely as the result of catastrophic events; the events originate in the skies, which contain forces that are immeasurably greater than any in man or Earth and that are especially electrical. There are numerous "catastrophists" who have contributed to Q.. It is vital to appreciate that in Quantavolution, the word "catastrophe" loses its completely bad connotation; for what the world is today is an effect of catastrophe or, better, of Quantavolution, whose goodness and badness are intertwined and to be judged by the philosophy of good and bad consequences.

The underlying philosophy of Quantavolution inclines toward a phenomenological instrumentalism. It regards a "truth" as a fitting and useful part of a system of such truths that constitute. as a whole a possible tolerable outlook upon existence. The terms pragmatism, logical positivism, and operationism come to mind when reaching out for related perspectives. As with catastrophists, many philosophers might be cited. Among them would be Plato, Ockham, Bruno, Locke, Berkeley, Vico, Husserl, Freud, Dewey, Mead, Wittgenstein, and Bridgman.

The day may not be far off when a new philosopher will draw upon the applicable contributions of such thinkers and the fast-growing body of quantavolutionary literature to produce a new philosophy of science.

See http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QUANTAVOL/Q_intro/intro.pdf
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Offline Susan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 02:38:20 pm »
Liebe Hanna, 

zu Beginn liebe Grüße auf deutsch. :) Deine Frage werde ich allerdings so gut es geht auf englisch beantworten:

You asked when and where did the instincto species eating durian, cempedak, jackfruit, banana, dates, safu, avocado... live and where was this tropical paradise and when did it exist.

This species never existed. This is a new species and maybe it will be the species who create a new paradise, "the golden age" goodsamaritan mentioned.

My experience is that one can create this golden age independent from external circumstances in the middle of the own heart. Instinktive eating is one way leading to this centre. If you ever felt a "Himmlische Phase"  (sorry, I don't know how to call it in english) you know what I mean.

Susan


Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 09:00:05 pm »
Since my questions tend to be forgotten, I open up a new thread.

Gcb said that our instinct has to be trained, because "we are no longer placed in an environment close to the one where our genome evolved, thus a series of precautions must be taken". My question: When and where did the instincto species eating durian, cempedak, jackfruit, banana, dates, safu, avocado... live? Where was this tropical paradise and when did it exist? Were the instinctos living there apelike or already human?

You'll soon find my answer on the thread  Explain...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 09:26:36 pm by GCB »

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 02:01:02 pm »
 GCB's answer is here:
It is unnecessary that such an environment exists in the form of an original paradise. Our genetics could include the ones of various animals we evolved from and memorize numerous partial situations, by adapting for example the alliesthesic mechanisms during a period to such or such new plant, during another to consumption of the meat of a specific animal, etc. It can thus gather all kinds of data making the organism able to function as well as possible in a global alimentary context, and it is this context which I tried to define empirically. The facts showed the need to exclude cooked, seasoned and crushed food, dairy products and cereal, and to be careful with  artificially selected modern foodstuff (be it fruits, vegetables, or meat of domestic animals).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 02:10:55 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 05:36:38 pm »
Worth mentioning are also Alpha´s remarks, that have been moved into an separate Alpha-thread and hence completely taken out of context by the moderator:  

Quote
Quote
Ces observations avaient évidemment quelque chose de rassurant : le milieu originel, dont l'instinctothérapie postule l'existence puisqu'il faut bien que notre génétique se soit adaptée à quelque chose de réel, existait heureusement quelque part.

in English

Quote
These observations had of course something that was reassuring : the original milieu or environment, whose existence is a basic premise of instinctotherapy since our genetics had necessarily to adapt to something in real world, existed indeed somewhere.

Burger himself in 1991 here:

http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/IM43-fruitssauvages.html

 BTW our original biotope was in this same article indeed described by Burger as something like the chimps one with plenty of fruit as the basic food.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 07:36:48 pm »
Ok, thanks Hanna, sorry about that. I remembered GCB answered more in details to this point but my former search was unsuccessful. Now I have taken the time to search more carefully and found it. Here it is:

Quote
Quote from Alphagruis on July 19, 2010, 05:02:01 AM [/url]
Burger’s specific « theoretical » considerations such as the existence of « an original biotope our genetics had supposedly adapted to »

I specified that this presupposition is not necessary to build the theory. Alphagruis seemingly fails to understand or don’t want to understand that our genome is the heir of an incalculable number of situations where our ancestors were confronted with such or such stuff, and that it can consequently program the alliesthesic mechanisms as to ensure nutritional balance with a food range ways more extended than that of a single and specific “original paradise”.

In other words, I always regarded the idea of an original environment as an heuristic , hence a postulate without other interest than leading us to ask questions about our actual culinary and industrial biotope. The fact that it either existed or never existed doesn’t changes anything here: the alliesthesic mechanisms and those of assimilation apparently work with all the natural unprocessed stuff one can find on the planet – some rare exceptions aside. And if we find someday a natural environment as that where the orang-outangs still live today, that simply let’s think that this heuristics is not too far from reality. But, once again, it changes nothing to this point.

 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 12:05:22 am »
Gcb, but you postulated elsewhere that a balanced (Instincto) diet is usually a high carb diet with much fruit. Doesn´t this imply that we must have adapted to an environment in which edible fruit was abundant or at least not scarce?

Offline Susan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 08:25:37 pm »
It is useless to discuss, what our ancestor have eaten, high carb diet or low carb diet or what else. This is past and evolution has continued. Our enviremont and our needs are totally different from that of our ancestors. Still we can use senses like smell and taste to select our food, but furthermore we have devolped other senses which help us to find food that is suitable to our personal evolution. 

So everyone has to look for his personal needs and these can differ totally from needs of another person. When do we know that our personal needs are fulfilled? I think when live in perfect harmony with our enviremont, calm, satisfied and able to solve problems not only to discuss them. :)

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 03:08:11 am »
I doubt we have evolved to any extent away from our forebears in the palaeolithic.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline Susan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 01:59:59 pm »
Do you believe that evolution has spared man? Hasn't man changed his physical attributes (or do we look like apes anymore?) and developed a higher consciousness (though maybe not all of us :) )?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2010, 02:20:55 pm »
I think we made an evolutionary jump to conscious humanity.
Something like Quantavolution.

On the health level, my basis for believing in raw paleo diet is it heals people, raw paleo diet and variants within is the basis of getting well, getting healthy.

As for the Quantavolution jump to consciousness, I like the evidence that the earth used to be in a plasma soup, that there were no visible stars, that the garden of eden was everywhere, that calendars have changed, year measurements had changed, the earths position in the solar system was different, once there was a binary star system: sun-saturn, sun-jupiter, sun-uranus.

That's why it is important to experiment with the here and now as to what works.
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2010, 05:26:45 pm »
Do you believe that evolution has spared man? Hasn't man changed his physical attributes (or do we look like apes anymore?) and developed a higher consciousness (though maybe not all of us :) )?
No, I mean we evolved away from apes in the palaeolithic and then degenerated/devolved.
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Offline miles

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 09:37:17 pm »
However, groups of people who do better on modern foods may be more likely to reproduce with each other, leaving those who don't for each other, which could be a sort of evolution, a branching off. Although these people who do less well may not die, people still prefer healthier partners for breeding, as well as rape being illegal.
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Offline Susan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 11:38:26 pm »
Reading TylerDurden's words that I belong to a degenerated species has made me feel sad and hopeless. :(

Searching what kind of food could help me to overcome my sadness I found some special beings:


Eating three of them made me happy again and I'm contaminated with their vitality. :)

TylerDurden, I don't believe that I'm degenerated, I believe that I evolve myself. My observation is that intuitive raw eating gives me the energy for the evolution of my consciousness and helps me to cure defects of body and mind caused by unsuitable cooked food.



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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 02:14:48 am »
However, groups of people who do better on modern foods may be more likely to reproduce with each other, leaving those who don't for each other, which could be a sort of evolution, a branching off. Although these people who do less well may not die, people still prefer healthier partners for breeding, as well as rape being illegal.
Well, I dispute the notion of getting adapted to cooked/processed foods, as foods are becoming ever so more processed as time goes by that no possible viable genetic adaptation would keep up.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2010, 07:37:35 am »
Wow, raw grasshopper?
Do you kill them first?

Reading TylerDurden's words that I belong to a degenerated species has made me feel sad and hopeless. :(

Searching what kind of food could help me to overcome my sadness I found some special beings:


Eating three of them made me happy again and I'm contaminated with their vitality. :)

TylerDurden, I don't believe that I'm degenerated, I believe that I evolve myself. My observation is that intuitive raw eating gives me the energy for the evolution of my consciousness and helps me to cure defects of body and mind caused by unsuitable cooked food.



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Offline kurite

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 01:56:09 pm »
No, I mean we evolved away from apes in the palaeolithic and then degenerated/devolved.
I think we devolved temporarily. In other words once generations of people start eating raw paleo again our better traits will return. Larger brain mass, more muscle and more. The reason we devolved is not genetic (in my opinion) but our generation ate inferior diets and our bodies could fully develope to its true potential.
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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2010, 04:16:07 pm »
I think we devolved temporarily. In other words once generations of people start eating raw paleo again our better traits will return. Larger brain mass, more muscle and more. The reason we devolved is not genetic (in my opinion) but our generation ate inferior diets and our bodies could fully develope to its true potential.
The reason we devolved is indeed partially genetic. After all, natural selection in the Palaeolithic meant that deleterious genes were weeded out, whereas nowadays by saving ever more lives of those with faulty genes like haemophilia etc., we are ensuring that more and more people are born with such defects.
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Offline Susan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2010, 12:34:12 am »
Wow, raw grasshopper?
Do you kill them first?

First I bite off the head, otherwise they try to jump within the mouth. :)

I think we devolved temporarily. In other words once generations of people start eating raw paleo again our better traits will return. Larger brain mass, more muscle and more. The reason we devolved is not genetic (in my opinion) but our generation ate inferior diets and our bodies could fully develope to its true potential.

You are right we dont't differ genetically but epigenetically. Though genes are constant over a long period and can't be influenced by food, our epigentic heritage can be influenced. So nobody shall lament his "bad" heritage when he becomes ill but change his nutrition and his way of live.

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 07:04:20 am »

Gcb, but you postulated elsewhere that a balanced (Instincto) diet is usually a high carb diet with much fruit. Doesn´t this imply that we must have adapted to an environment in which edible fruit was abundant or at least not scarce?

Once again, I do not need an original paradise hypothesis to build the instincto theory: just watch on one hand the instinctive attractions and on the other hand the results on nutritional balance. Taking into account the olfactory and gustatory attraction/repulsion, repletion and other alliesthesic perceptions as well as interpretations under the rules of instincto helps to ensure an extremely accurate nutritional balance, verifiable in terms of the inflammatory tendency – as I have already explained (such accuracy could only be obtained with fasting). Experience shows that the proportions of fruit, vegetables, oilseeds and animal products correspond closely to what is observed in apes. We can therefore say that it works, and that’s the principal.

Now, what can we deduce about the existence of an "original paradise" where all the fruits of our dreams would have been found? Not much, because the programming of our genes took place over very long eras during which our ancestors have known all sorts of different vanished environments leading each to other various genetic properties that have thus been able to accumulate in our genome. To get an idea of these primitive surroundings, the best indication is given by the few locations where the hand of man has yet set foot, for examples in such biotopes of bonobos’ in Africa and orangutans’ in Borneo or Sumatra.

What I know, for example through a small survival expedition without fire or culinary arts in Borneo attended by my younger son, is that the orangutans find (and maintain in spreading the seeds) in their habitat a broad range of wonderful fruits perfectly suitable to humans, provided that they have not their taste distorded nor their body saturated by the effect of culinary arts. It is likely that forests inhabited by our distant and exctinct hominids ancestor resembled those environments and counted tree species better adapted to their organisms through the spreading of seeds, so even more appealing to the senses and more favorable to their metabolism. We understand that this environment would have significantly changed ever since mankind cooks its food and is no longer interested in the same fruits as in the original context. Hence the current state of the natural environment, terribly poor in fruits edible to humans.


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 07:15:09 am »
Maybe I'm missing something here, but you don't seem to be directly answering Hanna's question, GCB, because whereas you write this:

Once again, I do not need an original paradise hypothesis to build the instincto theory: ...

You also wrote this in which you suggest that even Europeans' bodies are better adapted to tropical climates and in which you recommend tropical fruits, with an apparent emphasis on South Asian ones, are better than temperate fruits:
Quote
This deficiency in the local array would also be a reason to think that our bodies are better adapted to tropical climates, where lacks neither cassia nor the fruit best suited to the human palate such as coconut, durian, jackfruit, cempedak, safu, papaya, mango, custard apple, longan, rambutan... the list is long and far more pleasant than the colder climate fruits range.

Why the seeming contradiction and why so much emphasis on tropical (particularly South Asian) fruits?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 06:23:21 pm »
Gcb,
According to your Instincto rules the first meal of the day, i. e. lunch, should consist of fruit/sugar. At lunch time and without breakfast people of course have a large appetite and will tend to eat much fruit. Therefore your rules appear to be based on the assumption that we are adapted to an environment where abundant fruit is available everyday. If according to your rules the first meal of  the day would consist of foods rich in fat (e. g. bone marrow or sunflower seeds or coconut etc.), or if fruits would be considered as a small snack instead of a main meal, instinctos perhaps would eat less sugar and more fat.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2010, 04:20:28 am »

Today I had wild boar liver for my lunch  ;)
Sometimes I have oysters, or eggs...

Cheers
Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler