Author Topic: Instincto`s tropical paradise  (Read 30964 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2010, 06:21:54 am »
.... In my case, I have always given priority to the empirical long-term observations, rather than to grand theories. Actually the experience suggests that we are particularly adapted to tropical fruits (including c. fistula). But the fruits of moderate climates are also quite suited: the regulation of nutritional balance is fine with at the menu, according to the affinities of each one loquats : blackberries, mulberries, blueberries, cherries, apricots, peaches, apples, pears, plums, grapes etc. The point is how to take account of variations in flavor, consistency, and sensation of fullness. ....
There you go Iguana, straight from the horse's mouth. GCB has put particular emphasis on tropical fruits, most of which originate from South and Southeast Asia. As he wrote, that doesn't mean he thinks temperate fruits are bad, just that he has particularly praised the tropical ones. So my question stands and GCB's answer doesn't fully address it.

GCB wrote: "Actually the experience suggests that we are particularly adapted to tropical fruits (including c. fistula)."

Whose experience is "the experience"? It's not mine. I do rather poorly on Asian tropical fruits and in evolutionarily speaking, human experience with them is very short as compared to African and Eurasian fruits (you did mention one African fruit that I noticed), which is why I'm puzzled that you're talking about them like they were ideal for humanity in general. Why would Northwest Europeans like myself who have no indications of any ancestors in South/Southeast Asia at all ever in human history be particularly adapted to fruits from that region? Are you suggesting that they are most similar in some way to the tropical fruits of Africa? Do you know what the main fruits humans ate in Africa during the last 2+ million years were?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2010, 05:00:27 pm »
I also do badly on  tropical fruits, whereas fruits from more northerly climes(berries, apples, pears and the like) I do fine on.
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Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2010, 05:42:46 pm »
And fruits like banana do not only originate in Southeast Asia, but also look a little bit different if they are wild:





The wild banana reportedly tastes bad and bitter.

And Iguana, ask Orkos why they don´t sell, for example, wild dates! They know wild dates!

I cannot believe that an instincto in whatever wild environment would manage to eat as much sugar as he does in the civilised world.

Offline Susan

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2010, 09:50:44 pm »
I prefer wild fruits independent from their origin. All types of cultivated fruits regardless of whether they come from Asia, Europe, Africa or from the rest of the world cause chaos in my body and in my mind and I don't feel really satisfied after eating them. Overlaoding my body with cultivated fruits lead to toothaches, sometimes to muscle cramps and to nervousness.

The difference between wild and cultivated fruits I noticed very clear eating cherrys this year. I have a wonderful big cultivated cherry-tree in my garden and I always ate a lot of them with great pleasure but never finding a clear stop and never fully satisfied after eating them. This year I found a wild cherry-tree and I tasted wild cherrys. It was not possible to eat more than a dozen of this little fruits. The stop was very clear. But though the quantaty was small I was fully satisfied and I have had an illuminous phase. Knowing the real taste of cherrys I don't eat the cultivated ones any more.

Till now I can't get wild bananas, or wild dates, from some tropical fruits I don't know if they are cultivated or not (like Rambutan or Litschies). But I observe my reactions after a meal very accurate and in the case of bananas I decided to cancel them from my diet till I get wild ones.






Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2010, 10:27:26 pm »
And Iguana, ask Orkos why they don´t sell, for example, wild dates! They know wild dates!

Why do you ask me to ask them? Can't you ask'em yourself?

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Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2010, 12:36:44 am »
Wild dates reportedly have practically no fruit pulp.

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2010, 03:16:58 am »

The wild banana reportedly tastes bad and bitter.

Such considerations do not take into account the alliesthesic mechanisms: wild fruits often appear inedible when tested next to the ordinary cooked food. Why? Because food preparation can violate the "instinctive judgments" and lead to a constant overload in all kinds of components, including calories. The wild fruits, however, corresponds exactly to the genetic programming of the senses and seem therefore inedible, simply because the alliesthesic mechanisms work correctly with primitive varieties. Failing to realize this leads to think that the wild stuff is definitely inedible while it suffices to wait until the culinary overload fades to discover the real flavor of wild products. I would bet that the wild bananas you provided these excellent photos shall be excellent to my taste. This is already the case for "cooking" bananas, which seem rather inedible beside cooked food, but become better than current usual bananas after a certain time of instincto.

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And Iguana, ask Orkos why they don´t sell, for example, wild dates! They know wild dates!

Doesn’t it look simple? But wild dates are not grown and it is very difficult to find people willing to harvest them. Moreover, they have a less pleasant taste to standard dieters than improved varieties, so it is difficult to sell them to others consumers than long term instinctos and therefore difficult to recoup costs. Orkos does at least seek varieties as little selected as possible to integrate into their sales program which includes about twenty varieties (not only hardliners instincto clients must be satisfied, but also the much more numerous others who prefer the selected strains). But for other fruit, especially tropical fruits, Orkos’ search for wild varieties is constant: for example cempedaks are during part of the season harvested in the primeval forest. And they are much better to the instinctos’ taste than cultivated more selected varieties for example from Vietnam. This is also a point that must be considered: the wild fruits of the temperate land (apples, pears, corms) are often much more inedible than tropical fruits in the wild (cempedak, jackfruit, coconut, durian, avocado, etc.). This would be a reason to think that we are better adapted to tropics than to temperate regions

Quote
I cannot believe that an instincto in whatever wild environment would manage to eat as much sugar as he does in the civilised world.

It depends which instinctos we talk about. Your overall impression is probably distorted by different bias.
1. A long term instincto does not eat so much foods high in sugar.
2. The high consumption of sweet foods observed in the early days have obviously a therapeutic function.
3. Defective supplies (moreover from temperate regions) may push to over-consumption.
4. Selected modern fruits actually induce over-consumption.
5. The natural environment as one think of it does not correspond to what could be a natural environment inhabited by homo “preculinaris”, because man has abandoned all kinds of fruit that became less palatable as a result of overloads induced by artificial food processing, and these fruits being no longer consumed, their seeds no longer had the same chance of reproduction.
6. To get an idea of what could be the natural environment inhabited by homo “preculinaris”, we can go see the primeval forest where primates fairly close to us live, except that the fruit multiplied by spontaneous spreading of their seeds are not the same  that suits the human palate.

We must remain very cautious in this kind of considerations. Personally, I prefer to look at what the instinct leads to eat (avoiding the culinary art and agriculture as much as possible, which is already a good approximation) and health outcomes. If a person consumes three kilos of jackfruit per day and gains weight while all previous treatments had not allowed her to do so, I tend to conclude that this apparently excessive ration is her real needs, even if the nutritional science is unable to give an explanation. If someone eats 500 grams of comb honey per day (natural and from unfed bees to avoid any deterioration in taste) and then this consumption is interrupted because the same honey taste has changed, as well as that during this period of apparent overload nutritional balance criteria were met (eg the absence of inflammatory tendency), I deduce that this massive supply of sugar had a reason for being, rather than going into all sorts of arguments about adaptation to a primitive environment – which do not stand on any concrete basis.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 03:35:24 am by GCB »

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2010, 04:42:14 am »

I prefer wild fruits independent from their origin. All types of cultivated fruits regardless of whether they come from Asia, Europe, Africa or from the rest of the world cause chaos in my body and in my mind and I don't feel really satisfied after eating them. Overlaoding my body with cultivated fruits lead to toothaches, sometimes to muscle cramps and to nervousness.
The difference between wild and cultivated fruits I noticed very clear eating cherrys this year. I have a wonderful big cultivated cherry-tree in my garden and I always ate a lot of them with great pleasure but never finding a clear stop and never fully satisfied after eating them. This year I found a wild cherry-tree and I tasted wild cherrys. It was not possible to eat more than a dozen of this little fruits. The stop was very clear. But though the quantaty was small I was fully satisfied and I have had an illuminous phase. Knowing the real taste of cherrys I don't eat the cultivated ones any more.

I couldn't agree more. How long have you practiced instinctive nutrition?

Wild dates reportedly have practically no fruit pulp.

Don’t be too hasty in your conclusions. True, there are wild dates with very little pulp, hardly enough to scratch with our teeth and therefore being very energy inefficient. But there are others not as meager. And if men are interested in these dates, it is obviously the best and pulpy ones they’ll eat and spread the seeds, so they finally find it currently in their habitat.




Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2010, 05:52:52 am »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but you don't seem to be directly answering Hanna's question, GCB, because whereas you write this:

You also wrote this in which you suggest that even Europeans' bodies are better adapted to tropical climates and in which you recommend tropical fruits, with an apparent emphasis on South Asian ones, are better than temperate fruits:
Why the seeming contradiction and why so much emphasis on tropical (particularly South Asian) fruits?

Well, we don’t understand each other: I did not need the hypothesis of an original paradise to build the instincto, because it is built from empirical observations on the functioning of alliesthesic and metabolic mechanisms, regardless of such hypothesis. But that does not prevent the observed results to be interpreted in a second step in terms of evolution and genetic adaptation.

The concept of genetic adaptation has been especially useful to me for explaining the shortcomings of alliesthesic mechanisms with food processed by the culinary arts. But how this genetic adaptation to different varieties of fruits was carried out is quite indifferent to me. As already stated many times, our genome has been able to collect data in many very different circumstances, as it dates back to immemorial time, long before primates appeared (we still have the same genes as the bacterias for a variety of proteins structures of our cells, for example).

On the contrary, your argument is based on assumptions about the ENVIRONMENT in which man would have set up its genome, which makes it very risky. We know almost nothing about the exact conditions under which our ancestors were able to spend the tens of millions of years whose memory was added to previous data of our genome: there were all kinds of migrations, environmental changes, climatic hazards about which lack of knowledge prohibits any safe deduction. I prefer to proceed by empirical observation as a first step, even resorting to hypotheses in a second time to explain these observations because this approach is much less random than the opposite course.


Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2010, 06:05:28 am »
Gcb,
According to your Instincto rules the first meal of the day, i. e. lunch, should consist of fruit/sugar. At lunch time and without breakfast people of course have a large appetite and will tend to eat much fruit. Therefore your rules appear to be based on the assumption that we are adapted to an environment where abundant fruit is available everyday.

"To be based": No! The rule stems from the observation. It turned out that most people usually feel better when  starting the day with fruit. When we begin with animal food, for example, we don’t get all the same criteria of well-being. These criteria are very specific and allow assessing the quality of digestion and metabolism functions. In addition, this rule is not absolute, it’s rather an advice for beginners (as is also the case for all the "rules" constituting the instincto). As experience has shown that doing so was preferable in most cases I recommend to start there, but if a person sees through her own experience that another way suits her best, she should of course ignore this “rule”.

I am constantly astonished by the image of inflexibility that underlies most of the objections on the different threads (eg those of Alphagruis). The instincto is not a diet with fixed rules. It is rather a basis of personal experience gained from the observation of a large number of cases (I had the opportunity to observe and share experiences with hundreds of people during more than 40 years), and explained afterwards under the laws of evolution and biochemistry.

If according to your rules the first meal of  the day would consist of foods rich in fat (e. g. bone marrow or sunflower seeds or coconut etc.), or if fruits would be considered as a small snack instead of a main meal, instinctos perhaps would eat less sugar and more fat.

Exactly, everyone can adjust as one sees fit. And that changes over time. When the attraction of fruit falls, it happens to me, of course, to have a meal of meat, or nuts, or avocados at noon. But it is seldom.


« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 06:13:46 am by GCB »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2010, 10:29:33 am »
Well, we don’t understand each other: I did not need the hypothesis of an original paradise to build the instincto,
Right, we got that part.
Quote
... because it is built from empirical observations on the functioning of alliesthesic and metabolic mechanisms, regardless of such hypothesis. But that does not prevent the observed results to be interpreted in a second step in terms of evolution and genetic adaptation.
So are you saying that during some "second step" of evolution that humans became adapted to eating tropical fruits with a South Asian emphasis?

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The concept of genetic adaptation has been especially useful to me for explaining the shortcomings of alliesthesic mechanisms with food processed by the culinary arts.
OK, so you do see some value in an evolutionary biology explanation for how humans became adapted to certain foods, yes?

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On the contrary, your argument is based on...
I'm not making any argument right now, just trying to understand your views.

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I prefer to proceed by empirical observation as a first step, even resorting to hypotheses in a second time to explain these observations because this approach is much less random than the opposite course.
Ah, would you call yourself an empiricist?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2010, 10:43:19 am »
Hanna, by origin I mean the fruits that GCB advocated here[/ulrl] are reportedly believed to most likely have these origins:

coconut - South and Southeast Asia (ex: Bangladesh, India, New Zealand)
durian - Southeast Asia (Brunei, Indonesia and Malaysia)
jackfruit - southern and Southeast Asia (ex: Bangladesh)
cempedak - Southeast Asia (from Malaya Peninsula to the island of New Guinea/Papua)
safu (safou, African plum, African pear, Dacryodes edulis): shady, humid tropical forests of Africa
papaya: tropics of the Americas
mango: Indian subcontinent
custard apple: tropical New World
longan: South and Southeast Asia
rambutan: Southeast Asia (ex: Malaysia, Indonesia, The Philippines, Sri Lanka)

Notice a trend there?

I would bet that the wild bananas you provided these excellent photos shall be excellent to my taste.
That would be an interesting experiment. Are you able to acquire any?

Quote
This is also a point that must be considered: the wild fruits of the temperate land (apples, pears, corms) are often much more inedible than tropical fruits in the wild (cempedak, jackfruit, coconut, durian, avocado, etc.). This would be a reason to think that we are better adapted to tropics than to temperate regions
How do you think we became adapted to these tropical fruits? Do they resemble the fruits of Africa that archaic Homo sapiens consumed? Do you have any info to share on the fruits eaten by humans of more than 100,000 years ago?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2010, 11:06:54 pm »
So are you saying that during some "second step" of evolution that humans became adapted to eating tropical fruits with a South Asian emphasis?

No! I'm talking about the second step in the instincto approach: the first is the empirical step (notice that the foodstuff taste changes when they are unprocessed) while the second step is the theoretical interpretation (this could be explained by the fact that the human genome is not adapted to the organoleptic properties modified by different culinary arts or agriculture).

Quote
OK, so you do see some value in an evolutionary biology explanation for how humans became adapted to certain foods, yes?

The theory is of course interesting. The issue here is to distinguish an approach based on a theory from which we define a diet versus an approach based on observations from which we draw a diet and a theory.

In fact, observation and theoretical interpretation are rather inseparable. But it's another thing to declare that men is not adapted to fruit because the fruit did not exist in nature and thus implement a zero carb scheme, or start by observing for years the alliesthesic phenomena and physiological responses on a variety of foods to extract invariants from (eg: the denatured products are no longer properly controlled by alliesthesic and metabolic mechanisms) and define a diet (in which these alliesthesic and metabolic mechanisms function correctly) while trying to explain things by a genetic theory. The second way avoids relying on errors of archaeological or evolutionary type.

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-- Ah, would you call yourself an empiricist?

I’m trained in both experimental physics and theoretical physics, but I have always been very careful about the reliability of theories. Physicists are particularly well placed to know that a model of explanation is noting more than a MODEL of explanation, and that one should never take theories for absolute foundations of reasoning. Everything we think we know about the origin of food plants and origin of our genes is highly doubtful. It can be used afterwards to try to explain the empirical results. It can also be used as heuristics to feed the experiments, but never as a basis of reasoning – especially when it comes to stick to a diet that can have all sorts of health implications.


Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2010, 11:20:57 pm »
Hanna, by origin I mean the fruits that GCB advocated here[/ulrl] are reportedly believed to most likely have these origins:
coconut - South and Southeast Asia (ex: Bangladesh, India, New Zealand)
durian - Southeast Asia (Brunei, Indonesia and Malaysia)
jackfruit - southern and Southeast Asia (ex: Bangladesh)
cempedak - Southeast Asia (from Malaya Peninsula to the island of New Guinea/Papua)
safu (safou, African plum, African pear, Dacryodes edulis): shady, humid tropical forests of Africa
papaya: tropics of the Americas
mango: Indian subcontinent
custard apple: tropical New World
longan: South and Southeast Asia
rambutan: Southeast Asia (ex: Malaysia, Indonesia, The Philippines, Sri Lanka)
Notice a trend there?

The origin of a plant, archaeologically or paleontologically speaking is by force of circumstances where we have found the oldest traces. We must remain very cautious with any reasoning based on current data, subject to change.

Quote
from: GCB on Yesterday at 02:16:58 PM
I would bet that the wild bananas you provided these excellent photos shall be excellent to my taste.

-- That would be an interesting experiment. Are you able to acquire any?

I’ve had this experience with dried wild bananas. They were delicious, but we should also do it with the same fresh bananas. As I said elsewhere, cooking bananas which are usually found  rough and inedible in raw state for cooked dieters, become delicious once an overload in calories or in carbs is over. They return to their unpleasant taste once the need for calories is filled.

Quote
This is also a point that must be considered: the wild fruits of the temperate land (apples, pears, corms) are often much more inedible than tropical fruits in the wild (cempedak, jackfruit, coconut, durian, avocado, etc.). This would be a reason to think that we are better adapted to tropics than to temperate regions.
-- How do you think we became adapted to these tropical fruits? Do they resemble the fruits of Africa that archaic Homo sapiens consumed? Do you have any info to share on the fruits eaten by humans of more than 100,000 years ago?

It’s indeed possible there is resemblances between different plant such as the physiological data adapted to some species also apply to other species. But I rather think that our genes carry in them a very wide range of characteristics adapted to the different forms an environment may take. One thing is anyway very clear: the natural world obeys a set of rules governing its molecular organization, while cooking induces molecular disorder with all the consequences that a disorder introduced into an organized system may have – that is to say, multiple and unpredictable effects...

But once again, what counts is to empirically ensure that the sensory mechanisms (alliesthesic, metabolic, immunological and other) work with certain foods and do not work with others. This limit empirically traced leaves on one side all the denatured products – cooked, prepared, mixed, ground, dairy, hot dried, too much artificially selected (grain, especially wheat and corn), etc. – and the other side all the fruits, vegetables, oilseeds and nuts, meat, eggs, seafood, etc. whether it comes from the equator, California, Switzerland or the Far North.


« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 12:02:00 am by GCB »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2010, 06:39:09 am »
The origin of a plant, archaeologically or paleontologically speaking is by force of circumstances where we have found the oldest traces. We must remain very cautious with any reasoning based on current data, subject to change.
Sure, but it's not as though you listed only one or two fruits from southern Asia. If new data corrects the origin of a couple of them it won't make a huge difference in the tendency in your recommendation, and the origin would likely only change to a different tropical location rather than a temperate, subarctic or Arctic zone.

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But I rather think that our genes carry in them a very wide range of characteristics adapted to the different forms an environment may take.
If our genetics are that adaptable, then please explain why we are best suited to tropical fruits? Given genetic adaptability, couldn't we just as easily adapt to other foods?

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One thing is anyway very clear: the natural world obeys a set of rules governing its molecular organization, while cooking induces molecular disorder with all the consequences that a disorder introduced into an organized system may have – that is to say, multiple and unpredictable effects...
Yes, increased unknown risks--aka increased chance of "black swans". I think that most or all of us members of this forum can agree on that.

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But once again, what counts is to empirically ensure that the sensory mechanisms (alliesthesic, metabolic, immunological and other) work with certain foods and do not work with others.
Yes, I can see that the senses are the key factor for you, as you have emphasized them quite a bit--especially the alliesthesic one and particularly taste.

Quote
whether it comes from the equator, California, Switzerland or the Far North.
So do different people thrive best on foods from different regions? For example, it sounds like you fare best on a tropical-oriented diet, whereas I seem to handle temperate and subarctic foods better than tropical.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2010, 07:30:19 am »
OK, I think I'm getting a good idea of your views from your answers. So to summarize, evolutionary biology can give some broad clues, a model of explanation and perhaps some rough guidance, and it is the source of our natural senses like taste and smell, but we should of course avoid reductionist errors and spend more time using practical empiricism (aka tinkering) to find an approach customized to our individual needs than we spend theorizing in ivory towers. We should understand that while non-reductionist science is useful it is also fallible, like humankind, and never achieves perfect knowledge. So one should take the best from each--both science and experience, with emphasis on experience. Have I understood you correctly?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2010, 08:32:59 pm »
Quote
It depends which instinctos we talk about. Your overall impression is probably distorted by different bias.
1. A long term instincto does not eat so much foods high in sugar.

But you told us that an instincto diet is typically a high carb diet. You even presented a statistic to prove that. It´s impossible to eat a high carb diet when you only eat 12 wild cherries (as Susan did) per meal and you would have to eat huge amounts of wild banana or wild durian (described by Inger here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully/msg38010/?topicseen#msg38010) to get sufficient sugar for a high carb diet.

Quote
4. Selected modern fruits actually induce over-consumption.

But you wrote before:

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Fruits too “easy” (artificially selected to fascinate the mouth), produce a temporary overload, but this overload dopes the alliesthesic reactions so that balance is restored rather spontaneously. This under condition of taking account of all the instinctive signals (...) The danger of dependence to fruits does not exist under these conditions.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully/msg38025/#msg38025

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is already the case for "cooking" bananas, which seem rather inedible beside cooked food,

That´s not right. Even in the German Wikipedia you can read that they can be eaten raw (by everyone) when they are fully ripe: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochbanane

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This is also a point that must be considered: the wild fruits of the temperate land (apples, pears, corms) are often much more inedible than tropical fruits in the wild (cempedak, jackfruit, coconut, durian, avocado, etc.). This would be a reason to think that we are better adapted to tropics than to temperate regions

Or the tropics are better adapted to us, and not only to us, but to mammals and plants, to life in general! You find much more animal species and plant species, much more life in the tropes than in Europe, in the arctis or in the deserts. Therefore, the probability is of course much higher to find wild edible fruit species in the rainforests as compared to other places. Fact is that no ape species is even remotely as picky re fruit and greens as we are. Our pickiness in this respect would have reduced our chances of survival drastically and would probably have rendered survival impossible in the long run, provided that raw wild fruit (and/or raw wild greens/plants) were our primary food and fuel source, as you suppose.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 08:56:31 pm by Hanna »

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2010, 06:52:00 am »
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 10:56:32 pm by Iguana »

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2010, 09:42:16 pm »
I’ve had this experience with dried wild bananas. They were delicious

Doesn´t chewing dried wild banana damage the teeth? I read not only that wild bananas are inedible by humans, but also that their large seeds are rock-hard... Ouch.

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2010, 10:36:17 pm »

But you told us that an instincto diet is typically a high carb diet. You even presented a statistic to prove that. It´s impossible to eat a high carb diet when you only eat 12 wild cherries (as Susan did) per meal and you would have to eat huge amounts of wild banana or wild durian (described by Inger here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully/msg38010/?topicseen#msg38010) to get sufficient sugar for a high carb diet.

If Susan could eat 12 wild cherries only that day, it’s likely that she was definitely in overload of sugar. So, she has offset the earlier overload, which was probably induced by too much selected fruit and a lack of vigilance on her part. It is precisely this type of experiences that helps to show imbalances developing under the influence of various factors, and to correct our behavior: that’s what I call the learning or rehabilitation of our alimentary instinct in the environment we have.

As for affirmation that instincto “is typically a high carb diet ", on what base do you define a standard rate? You apply an assumption of normality whose value isn’t based, AFAIK, on any figures or serious arguments. I rather think that carbs, lipids and proteins ratios that the body signals drive to and are corroborated by very strict balance criteria (including the absence of inflammatory tendency), allow defining of this normality. And coincidentally, the numbers we get are very close to the recommendations given by nutritionists and food repartition of primates in nature. I’m more wonder about low carb diets: on what base the proponents of these schemes justify such practices; has there been enough time to assess what long-term effects there might be; what are the theoretical arguments, etc.?

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That´s not right. Even in the German Wikipedia you can read that they can be eaten raw (by everyone) when they are fully ripe: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochbanane

Don’t play with words. Once cooking bananas are ripe and overripe, they actually lose the rough taste making it seemingly inedible. What interests us here is that this unpleasant rough taste of incompletely ripened bananas may disappear completely according to cravings. I saw people eating green bananas, absolutely inedible for me and other guests, while they feasted and swallowed massive amounts for several days. Then it happened that I found myself delicious a small amount of green bananas. That finally convinced me that a foodstuff inedible for some may be edible for others. The same experience happened with raw potato, tasting almost always hateful besides cooked food, but occasionally delectable in the instincto context. This happens with many wild stuff: rough and bitter as long as there is any nutritional overload, they completely change their taste and texture when the body really needs it.

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Fact is that no ape species is even remotely as picky re fruit and greens as we are. Our pickiness in this respect would have reduced our chances of survival drastically and would probably have rendered survival impossible in the long run, provided that raw wild fruit (and/or raw wild greens/plants) were our primary food and fuel source, as you suppose.

Again, I think your representation of the problem is incorrect. Our gluttony comes precisely from the fact that we denature food (processing and artificial selection): then we can eat excessive amounts, which actually affects our health and our lifespan. The phenomenon does not exist with products consumed in natural form. The practical difficulty comes from the fact that we have only artificially selected varieties.

Example: since recent decades, growers produce selected blueberries, larger and therefore easier to harvest, but also easier to eat (otherwise, consumers would buy less). The result is that we tend to eat much more of it than woods blueberries. But the drift can be compensated if one is aware of the bias; we just got to be more sensitive to changes in taste and sensations of fullness. I would say that monkeys are more exposed than we are to this kind of excess: if they are offered selected products, they will also be misled by unusually appealing flavors not varying sufficiently clearly to unpleasant, and they don't have the intelligence to control the slippage.

The instincto is precisely to use what’s left still of our instinct to recognize appropriate foods and amounts, compensating drifts induced by artificial selection with some rules. Experience repeatedly shows that this approach achieves a balance far superior to that provided by any nutritional science, knowing that the needs vary constantly from one individual to another and from one moment to other. Everything else is just speculation.




Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2010, 10:53:49 pm »
... As for affirmation that instincto “is typically a high carb diet ", on what base do you define a standard rate? You apply an assumption of normality whose value isn’t based, AFAIK, on any figures or serious arguments. I rather think that carbs, lipids and proteins ratios that the body signals drive to and are corroborated by very strict balance criteria (including the absence of inflammatory tendency), allow defining of this normality. And coincidentally, the numbers we get are very close to the recommendations given by nutritionists and food repartition of primates in nature. I’m more wonder about low carb diets: ...
If you recognize that "low carb diets" exist, why do you balk at Hanna using the term "high carb diet." If there is low then there must as a consequence also be high.

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Don’t play with words.
Why do you accuse her of that right after playing with "high carb" yourself? No matter how you dice it and regardless for the reasons behind how you arrive at them, your recommendations include much higher levels of carby foods like tropical fruits than what I eat and seem to be in the higher range of dietary recommendations. Tyler has also mentioned this about anopsology/instincto, as I recall. Here's a list of carb numbers I've accumulated over the years, to get a sense of where each "expert" stands, in case you doubt me:

Recommended AVG Percent of Calories as Carbs
---
Diet   - AVG of Carbohydrate Range
Pritikin - 80
Ornish - 70
T_Colin_Campbell - 60
Boyd_Eaton_(1991) - 60 (Eaton has since become less anti-fat and thus presumably less pro-carb)
US_AMDR - 55
Mediterranean - 50
SAD - 49-50
Zone - 40
Cordain's claim of hunter-gatherer avg - 31
Rosedale - 20
Protein_Power - 16
Atkins-type - 15
Tyler's reported diet - 15, possibly lower (estimated avg within a range of 5 - 30, more frequently tending toward the lower end of the range)
K. G. Harris - 7.5
Wortman - 5
Phinney - 2
Stefansson - 0

Bear in mind that most of these people recommend ranges and I'm using the average of their ranges for simplicity's sake. The most common reference point that experts use is the Standard American Diet (SAD), which is conveniently at an even number near the middle of about 50% of calories as carbs. Zone, Cordain, Rosedale, Protein Power, Atkins, K. G. Harris, Phinney and Stefansson have all been called low carb at one time or other, though some regard anything above 25% calories as carbs as not low carb. Do you have any idea what levels of calories as carbs your fruit-heavy recommendations would roughly average out to so I could add you to my list?

So it would explain your position better and improve your credibility, and thus serve your own interests, if you could answer Hanna's question directly instead of dancing around it. I'm not against all carby foods for everyone or anything like that (I recognize that some people seem to handle them rather well--such as the famous Kitavans), but when an author such as yourself recommends to the whole world a diet that contains high amounts of carby foods, and keeps on doing so even after people like myself report that we don't handle high amounts of even raw carby foods well, I think it behooves you to explain why you are promoting this position.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 11:21:54 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2010, 11:50:16 pm »
Doesn´t chewing dried wild banana damage the teeth? I read not only that wild bananas are inedible by humans, but also that their large seeds are rock-hard... Ouch.

Hanna, the cassia fistula and carob seeds are also very hard, even those of cherimoya or soursop. We don’t have to crush them between  our teeth! Just put them away with the tongue to reach the pulp surrounding it.

The most common reference point that experts use is the Standard American Diet (SAD), which is conveniently at an even number near the middle of about 50% of calories as carbs.
So it would explain your position better and improve your credibility, and thus serve your own interests, if you could answer Hanna's question directly instead of dancing around it. I'm not against all carby foods for everyone or anything like that (I recognize that some people seem to handle them rather well--such as the famous Kitavans), but when an author such as yourself recommends to the whole world a diet that contains high amounts of carby foods, and keeps on doing so even after people like myself report that we don't handle high amounts of even raw carby foods well, I think it behooves you to explain why you are promoting this position.

Phil, my position is clear : I don't recommend any percentage of carbs, proteins and fat, each individual needs being different and varying with time.

With accumulated experience, we at last trust the instinct more than any figure, moreover because the needs vary in proportions far greater than the nutritionist’s teaching. I don't recommend any percentage of carbs, proteins and fat, each individual needs being different and varying with time. With accumulated   experience, we at last trust the instinct more than any figure, moreover because the needs vary in proportions far greater than the nutritionist’s teaching.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 01:00:58 am by GCB »

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2010, 12:30:09 am »
Phil, my position is clear : I don't recommend any percentage of carbs, proteins and fat, each individual needs being different and varying with time.

With accumulated   experience, we at last trust the instinct more than any figure, moreover because the needs vary in proportions far greater than the nutritionist’s teaching.I don't recommend any percentage of carbs, proteins and fat, each individual needs being different and varying with time. With accumulated   experience, we at last trust the instinct more than any figure, moreover because the needs vary in proportions far greater than the nutritionist’s teaching.

I'm almost 3 years into raw paleo diet and the more I'm seeing it in the instincto definition.  When Yon and I met up, we found each other asking one another what seems to appeal to us at that time to eat.  Sometimes it's fruit, sometimes meat.  When Yon was sick green vegetable juice appealed to him.

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 12:35:51 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2010, 12:43:06 am »
Phil, my position is clear : I don't recommend any percentage of carbs, proteins and fat, each individual needs being different and varying with time.
OK, that's fine, and can you then explain why your posts are dominated by advocacy of tropical fruits without any note made of people who don't fare well on them? Are posts about cautions re: fruits for some, and about meats and fats and other foods to come soon?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto`s tropical paradise
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2010, 04:01:28 am »

OK, that's fine, and can you then explain why your posts are dominated by advocacy of tropical fruits with little note made of people who don't fare well on them? Are posts about cautions re: fruits for some, and about meats and fats and other foods to come soon?

A key point should be understood: those practicing an unbalanced or intoxicating diet can no longer bear fruits, especially the fruit best suited to the organism. The paradox stems from the fact that the better a food meets the needs of the body, the most reactions of detoxination it triggers. There is thus a constant misunderstanding in the reactions’ interpretation. Only long-term observation allows to distinguish between a direct nuisance and a useful reaction (eliminated toxins produce symptoms of intoxination when they are released into the blood).