Author Topic: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet  (Read 7857 times)

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Offline Hanna

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Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« on: October 21, 2014, 10:56:00 pm »
I post this in the instincto section as it supports a diet including substantial amounts of carbs. 

Citation from Wikipedia:
Quote
Inuit studied in the 1970s were found to have abnormally large livers, presumably to assist in this process. Their urine volumes were also high, a result of the excess urea produced by gluconeogenesis.[9] However, in multiple studies the traditional Inuit diet has not been shown to be a ketogenic diet.[10][11][12][13] Not only have multiple researchers been unable to detect any evidence of ketosis resulting from the traditional Inuit Diet, but the ratios of fatty-acid to glucose were observed to be well below the generally accepted level of ketogenesis.[10][11][12][13]
Inuit actually consume more carbohydrates than most nutritionists have assumed.[14]  (…) Traditional Inuit diets derive approximately 50% of their calories from fat, 30-35% from protein and 15-20% of their calories from carbohydrates, largely in the form of glycogen from the raw meat they consumed.[22] (…) It has been suggested that because the fats of the Inuit's wild-caught game are largely monounsaturated and rich in omega-3 fatty acids, the diet does not pose the same health risks as a typical Western high-fat diet.[23] However, evidence has shown that Inuit have a similar prevalence of coronary artery disease as non-Inuit populations and they have excessive mortality due to cerebrovascular strokes.[24][25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet#Nutrition

Offline Hanna

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 11:04:20 pm »
Same source:

Quote
... the blubber, organs, muscle and skin of the marine mammals that the Inuit ate have significant glycogen stores which assist those animals when oxygen is depleted on prolonged dives.[16][17][18] For instance, when blubber is analyzed by direct carbohydrate measurements, it has been shown to contain as much as 8—30% carbohydrates.[17] While postmortem glycogen levels are often depleted through the onset of rigor mortis, marine mammals have a much delayed onset of rigor mortis, even in warm conditions, presumably due to the high content of oxymyoglobin in the muscle that may permit aerobic metabolism to continue slowly for some time after the death of the animal.[17][19] Additionally, in cold conditions, glycogen's depletion is halted at -18 °C (-0.4 °F) and lower temperatures in comminuted meat.[20][21]

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 07:36:42 am »
And most of the Inuit and Siberians were recently found to have a gene mutation that makes it impossible for their youth to generate ketone bodies or utilize them for energy!

http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/2014/11/of-eskimos-and-atkins.html
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/12/acknowledge-ketogenic-recommend.html
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2814%2900422-4

Plus even the adults were never found to generate significant ketone bodies, despite multiple attempts to find this (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/reiterate-elevated-ketone.html). The assumption made by some keto/VLC advocates was that the low ketone readings of the Inuit were because they were "keto-adapted" (so efficient at metabolizing ketone bodies for energy that scant few remain in the urine or serum) but that assumption is looking pretty flimsy these days.

While some ability to generate and presumably use ketone bodies eventually develops in Inuits as they mature, there is still no evidence that they ever become particularly well adapted to them. If they can't use ketones much for energy, it hardly makes sense to call their traditional diet "ketogenic." So while the Inuit diet was higher-fat than many nutritionists and physicians would recommend, it's looking like the notion that it was ketogenic for them was yet another Paleomyth. Of course, confirmation bias will likely prevent many keto/VLC diet proponents from considering this possibility for some time to come. How ironic that it may turn out that the Inuit are one of the least truly ketogenic populations on earth.

Eventually there will likely be a shift in the keto/VLC wing toward emphasizing free fatty acids (FFAs) as an energy source, rather than ketone bodies (some already were emphasizing FFAs more, like Peter of the Hyperlipid blog (http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2014/11/coconuts-and-cornstarch-in-arctic.html, http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-p479l-gene-for-cpt-1a-and-fatty.html). Ray Peat, Spanish Caravan (an ex-"LC doctor"), Danny Roddy and others have also warned against chronically elevating FFAs. It will be interesting to see what future research and discussion reveals about that.

Over time, increasing numbers of people will probably feel rather silly for having shelled out $'s for ketostix and serum ketone meters, and presumably more will become quite angry at those who persuaded them to buy the stuff and embark on unproven extreme diets, making guinea pigs of them.

Quote
I have some level of discomfort with using the Inuit as poster people for a ketogenic diet. That's fine. They may well have eaten what would be a ketogenic diet for many of us, but they certainly did not develop high levels of ketones when they carried the P479L gene.

- Petro (Peter) Dobromylskyj, http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-p479l-gene-for-cpt-1a-and-fatty.html
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 08:56:07 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 08:37:00 am »
What puzzles me is my own and some others' inability to handle an RZC diet, let alone a 100% raw vegan diet. I mean, one only has to look at omnivorous wildlife who sometimes are forced to  eat very monotonous diets consisting of 100% raw plant foods or 100% raw animal foods for many months at a time, without suffering any damage at all. Are humans really so weak/vulnerable that we absolutely HAVE to eat a varied diet all the time?
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline jessica

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 09:37:40 am »
It's only a weakness when we mismanage our resources and population.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 11:26:57 am »
What puzzles me is my own and some others' inability to handle an RZC diet, let alone a 100% raw vegan diet. I mean, one only has to look at omnivorous wildlife who sometimes are forced to  eat very monotonous diets consisting of 100% raw plant foods or 100% raw animal foods for many months at a time, without suffering any damage at all. Are humans really so weak/vulnerable that we absolutely HAVE to eat a varied diet all the time?
Not quite, no. One thing that helps people make it through lean times and monotonous periods is a healthy gut microbiota that can produce varied nutrients for the body from subpar or limited foods, as well as break down and detoxify antinutrients and sometimes even turn them into nutrients.

Many early Paleo diet gurus looked mainly at one side of the coin - food toxins to be avoided or minimized - and weren't aware of the other side of the coin - detoxifying microbes and foods and robustifying eustress in beneficial hormetic doses.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2014, 07:34:36 pm »
Not quite, no. One thing that helps people make it through lean times and monotonous periods is a healthy gut microbiota that can produce varied nutrients for the body from subpar or limited foods, as well as break down and detoxify antinutrients and sometimes even turn them into nutrients.

Many early Paleo diet gurus looked mainly at one side of the coin - food toxins to be avoided or minimized - and weren't aware of the other side of the coin - detoxifying microbes and foods and robustifying eustress in beneficial hormetic doses.
All very well. But I had excellent bacteria in my gut after several years of going rawpalaeo and eating "high-meat" but still did not have success. I suspect that some peoples DNA may be so altered that they fare fine on 100% RZC diets while others might be the very  few who do fine on 100% raw vegan diets etc. More a question of genes, imo.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Online van

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 02:31:47 am »
there are way too many variables to know for sure.  Most successful Keto adapted individuals include prebiotic food other than just meat and fat.  My guess is the bacteria from high meat have little to do with the bacteria living on RS and other fermentable vegetable matter in the gut.   Other factors I see is excessive protein, and under or over utilization of fat.  Too much fat can make one's circulation sluggish.  And as mentioned the all or nothing approach thus cutting out all vegetable and or fruit, including sea vegs. and some sort of vit. C source.   

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 07:11:34 am »
Interesting, the narwhal skin has lots of vitamin c in it:-

http://mentalfloss.com/article/55994/7-fascinating-facts-about-narwhals
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 07:37:27 am »
Tyler, Yes, there is individual variation, in not just the DNA of our flesh, but also the majority of our DNA, which is in our microbes. Meat and connective tissue bacteria probably do help make VLC more tolerable for some, including traditional Eskimos. I suspect that this is one reason that rawists tend to be able to stay VLC longer than cooked foodists. Many cooked VLCers seem to be attracted to it by the prospect of being given the OK to eat all the crispy-fried bacon, cooked sausage and pasteurized butter they want. Thus, they tend to be even more anti-raw than vegans and vegetarians.

As Eric pointed out before, the so-called "high-meat" based on Aajonus' recommendations is not how the Eskimos make it, so perhaps authentic Eskimo high meat would help more. Maybe other traditional Eskimo foods, like muktuk (such as the narwhal skin you mentioned), raw seal liver, raw and briefly-cooked Eskimo potatoes, raw caribou liver and stomach contents, fermented birds, stinkflipper, stink heads, wild berries, tree saps, barks and teas, etc. (varying by availability in different regions, of course) helped the Eskimoes to avoid much of the longer-term problems that modern people report on raw and cooked VLC diets.

Ironically, I didn't have as poor early results from VLC early on as you did, which unfortunately contributed to my staying VLC for too long, thinking it was safe, even if not necessarily optimal, until it gradually became clear that it wasn't working well for me in the longer run, and I eventually found some ways to do better (though it took time).

---

Van, Yes, the beneficial bacteria that feed on meats are likely different from those that feed on plant foods. They probably all help in some way to get through the intermittent fasts and lean times. Yes, it does seem that the most extreme VLCers who cut all vegetable, fruit, sea vegs. and vit. C sources tend to fare worst. The Eskimos never did that. It's strange that they use the Eskimos to support doing things that the Eskimos themselves would never do. Even when I was VLC, I didn't understand why some people assumed they could get just as good results as the Eskimos eating nothing but Walmart ground beef and water (and maybe some butter), like our past active member, Katelyn, who later dumped VLC.

I suspect that many of the improvements that many people experience after dramatic dietary changes are mainly due to changes in their microbiota. It will be interesting to see what future research finds.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Online van

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2014, 08:02:22 am »
Yes, I'm still amazed at how seemingly well Charles is doing and the few that tend to follow.  My guess is two fold.  One is the control over insulin which would allow the body to heal in a way probably none of them had the chance to experience before.  Second, the lack of carbs in my experience does put out the fire from large colonies of carb feeding unhealthy bacteria and the like, which could include yeasts like candida, and some viruses like herpes.   Personally I went from being carrie prone to completely nonexistent by dropping fruit.  (Hence no longer fed those bacteria, or I guess some might suggest fruit for me caused mineral imbalance,, or both).    I'm still not convinced that we need RS or other for friendly bacteria, as I've suggested before that a large fat intake may take the place of lipid producing bacteria in the gut, and hence would stabilize blood sugar automatically and protect gut lining.    And the notion that our guts need to be in a acid condition for health.  Again, I'd love to see the ph of large carnivores like lions or big cats.   And I do remember that they eat RS animal fibers, but still. 
    I do personally include RS etc. ,, but still am curious. 
   I wish I could find and inquire with the member of Charles forum who with his wife and family only did pemican for so many years.   How is their health doing now. 
   I only keep re-mentioning these ideas, so as to keep the inquiry balanced.     

Offline Hanna

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2014, 02:39:53 am »
How ironic that it may turn out that the Inuit are one of the least truly ketogenic populations on earth.
Indeed!
Especially since ...

Quote
The world looks to the Inuit and Eskimo as the poster-children of a high fat, high protein diet.  (…) Nearly any medical or scientific paper that discusses a ketogenic diet also discusses the Inuit as a group of people who remained healthy while in constant ketosis. (...)
http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.de/2014/11/of-eskimos-and-atkins.html

 ;D

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Inuits didn’t eat a ketogenic diet
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2014, 07:45:34 am »
Van, your re-mentioned questions and ideas were explained before. Charles and the few others who seem to have done relatively well in the longer run (though I don't aspire to Charles' muscle loss, which he claimed to be pleased with, the last I saw, as helpful for his long-distance running, which probably contributed to it, though IIRC he blamed it on eating fewer calories) on their cooked VLC diets (Charles even boasts about cooking his meats well done) are greatly outnumbered by those who did not do well and either quit or were banned by Charles (he does not allow negative reports).

They don't necessarily have good insulin sensitivity. They just avoid spiking insulin (and BG).

Dropping fruit did not remineralize my dental cary, whereas it did remineralize after adding sparkling mineral water + prebiotic foods.

Probably no single food or substance, except water, is "necessary." One can do without RS, and also without meat. That doesn't mean one should avoid them like poisons. It does suggest that it is not necessary to gorge on them every day.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb