Author Topic: A day in the life of TylerDurden  (Read 216672 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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A day in the life of TylerDurden
« on: August 12, 2008, 04:25:39 am »
This is not meant as a regular diary! I've always hated diaries, and could never find the time to put in daily entries. But I will try to put in occasional entries, when I can.




“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2008, 02:48:50 pm »
When's the next occasional entry going to be?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2008, 05:59:22 pm »
I've decided to let this topic drop. Instead, I'll occasionally post details re my meals in the "what are you eating?" thread.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2009, 09:20:18 pm »
Ah, what the hell, I'll try resurrecting the thread, and see if I can stay the course.Won't always be able to add stuff every day.

OK, today(and yesterday, combined)
, I'm eating 1 or 2 kilos of raw  grassfed/naturally-reared lamb shoulder(with weight of bone included)
 . Also eating 3 small boxes of, variously,  strawberries and blueberries and rasperries(all organic) and a banana or three. Oh, and 2 boxes of raw quail eggs.

. I've been doing a rare experiment by adding in lots of black pepper to the meats. I've noticed, interestingly, that my bowel movements have been more frequent as a result(I've only been adding in carbs as of this friday, mostly, so it wasn't the carbs but the pepper which was responsible). I have to admit to being rather concerned as to how bowel movements are so infrequent when only eating raw meats. I suspect that the spices somehow speed up digestion and/or passage through the bowels.

I'm currently lacking in raw
suet/raw marrow as I usually have to buy sizeable amounts lasting a couple of months and I'm about to go abroad in July and need to clean out my fridge. So, marrow/suet I'll get again in August, and make do in the meantime. I can get grainfed suet/marrow in Italy but it tastes no good  and is, IMO, useless nutritionally-speaking,
so I'll mostly be getting grassfed horsemeat over there when I leave the UK(The UK forbids sale of horsemeat for UK consumption).

Oh yes, I'm also taking raw fermented cod liver oil from blue ice here and there.


Current situation:- I'm about to enter the lobster season and I'll be ordering them this sunday (live)  from my local fisherman. Unfortunately, the samphire-season , I think, only starts in July. Samphire is a very good herb/plant by the way - I eat it in minor amounts while in italy as it's one of the few plants which thrives on beaches(it needs the salt from the sea-air). Samphire is also what "salt-marsh"-fed sheep/cattle largely
feed on that makes their meat taste even better, reportedly, than standard grassfed meats.

As the horrible summer comes up yet again, I've had to cut my hair as short as possible. Also, whenever summer approaches, I tend to find that eating too much raw animal fat
 makes me feel far too hot. This experience
is counter to some silly remarks made by  Aajonus and Stefansson    re animal-fat consumption supposedly making one more resistant to the heat. So, I tend to significantly
up my raw-carb-intake/reduce animal-food-intake
 in the summer(also, in order to enhance my sporting performance as I always do far more exercise then) and I also fast. Fasting really does seem to cool me down as well, so I sometimes do that. Indeed, lots of sunshine does seem to reduce my appetite, perhaps due to more
vitamin d-production being stimulated by sunlight?

The heat of summer always makes me feel irritated. Of course, the main reason for the heat is not the heat itself but the fact that we have outdated , absurd notions re nudism being improper. Clothes are simply not necessary unless one is living in a semi-Arctic environment, and are an anachronism given the presence of central heating everywhere.

At the moment, I'm considering going to brixton market in a few days so as to buy some raw goatmeat. I love the pungent stench of goatmeat.

Sadly, we've passed the goose-egg season which was nice.

Ah yes, here is my testimonial:-

http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/geoff-purcell/

Been doing  a RVAF diet for c.7 years(almost 8 , now), if one includes a disastrous phase or two involving the primal diet, among others.

Oh, forgot to mention that I take regular supplements of (raw) adrenal, (raw) thyroid and organic organ delight from dr ron's website: drrons.com  I also eat whole raw organ-meats but am unable to get hold of raw glands like thyroid or adrenals here in the UK so it's 1 of my 2 compromises re supplements.

“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline Guittarman03

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 01:15:48 am »
I have also noticed a somewhat reduced taste for raw fat as it's started warming up.  And I've had to start drinking coconut water again, regular water just doesn't satisfy me completely - that and the electrolyte replenishment I think is a good think (particularly in the desert).  From what I've read tho, carbs burn 'hotter' than fats - more heat is released in the chemical reaction than with fats, which might be why Aajonus says they will keep you cooler in the summer.  But then again paleo carbs generally come with water, which always seems to absorb and satisfy my thirst better than water.     

Of course some would ask, why not burn carbs in the winter then?  But to do that would require a constant intake of them for burning, which would have your insulin / glucagon response varying considerably (and is not realistic or practical anyways).  Fats can supply a steady state long lasting heat, even if you haven't eaten in awhile. 
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline Nicola

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 03:23:47 am »
I've been doing a rare experiment by adding in lots of black pepper to the meats. I've noticed, interestingly, that my bowel movements have been more frequent as a result(I've only been adding in carbs as of this friday, mostly, so it wasn't the carbs but the pepper which was responsible). I have to admit to being rather concerned as to how bowel movements are so infrequent when only eating raw meats. I suspect that the spices somehow speed up digestion and/or passage through the bowels.



What gave you the idea that you need black pepper? Lots of black pepper is not paleo and plant oils / plants cause harm over time (just like grains...)

http://www.essentialoils.co.za/essential-oils/black-pepper.htm

Nicola

Offline Raw Rob

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2009, 04:21:30 am »
Hey Tyler,

What started to happen to you where you needed to reincorporate carbs/plant foods into your diet? I'm just wondering because I feel my best when I'm strictly eating meat/fat/organs, but I haven't been at it for very long yet. I was trying to find the answer in your old posts, but you've been here forever and it's hard to find.

Thanks,

Rob

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2009, 04:43:43 am »
What gave you the idea that you need black pepper? Lots of black pepper is not paleo and plant oils / plants cause harm over time (just like grains...)

http://www.essentialoils.co.za/essential-oils/black-pepper.htm

Nicola
]

I just thought I'd do an experiment with various raw spices. Part of the problem I have, currently, is that while there are many raw animal food restaurants in London(ie Japanese Sashimi restaurants), it's more difficult to be raw when eating indoors. Being able to eat raw salads and occasionally using spices means I'm more used to eating like others. For example, using raw spices can help me overcome some of the disgusting taste of various cooked foods.

As regards plants, I have had enough personal experience that makes it clear that raw plants, especially fruits, are essential for optimum human health, albeit in small quantities. No plant-food whatsoever in the diet, at best greatly reduces physical performance, and, for many people such as myself, it causes  very terminal health-problems in the long run.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2009, 04:47:37 am »
  From what I've read tho, carbs burn 'hotter' than fats - more heat is released in the chemical reaction than with fats, which might be why Aajonus says they will keep you cooler in the summer.  But then again paleo carbs generally come with water, which always seems to absorb and satisfy my thirst better than water.     
 

Simply put, eating lots of raw animal fat while skiing in winter makes me much more resistant to the cold than eating raw carbs.So I have my doubts re this Aajonus notion, given my additional experience re animal fat and summer heat.

Re fruit:- yes, I agree. As soon as I eat raw fruit, my water-intake drops. It's only during VLC or zero-carb trials that my mineral-water-intake goes way up.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2009, 05:08:19 am »
Hey Tyler,

What started to happen to you where you needed to reincorporate carbs/plant foods into your diet? I'm just wondering because I feel my best when I'm strictly eating meat/fat/organs, but I haven't been at it for very long yet. I was trying to find the answer in your old posts, but you've been here forever and it's hard to find.

Thanks,

Rob

I've done c.3 raw, zero-carb trials., each lasting c. 5-6 weeks or so, the last one being  a couple of years or so ago(2-3?). I've been doing rawpalaeo(LC or VLC) for 8 years, in general. I'm afraid that people have been making wrong assumptions, as my allexperts.com page was rather unclear on the issue(up till now, a lot of people seem to have gotten the erroneous impression that I was doing a 100% raw, fatty organ-meats diet or something.


Basically, every time I went zero-carb , I would experience the following effects:- at first, for the first 2 weeks, I'd get greater focus/alertness, and greatly decreased physical performance/endurance. Then, after that, by the 3rd week, I would quickly  get decreased alertness, chronic fatigue, panic attacks, ravenous hunger(for carbs) and I would have to struggle to force myself to eat even tiny amounts of raw animal food. After several weeks of this, I would get deep black circles under the eyes and loose, weakened  teeth - both kinds of symptoms I had before going rawpalaeo(and during my raw-dairy-phase). I'd lose a lot of weight due to the lack of appetite and the ravenous hunger for carbs interfered with my daily life, to a huge extent.I'd also get panic-attacks(especially on one occasion, when while zero-carb I tried some heated suet, for taste-reasons, but at other times as well. I'd , in addition, feel forced to drink vast amounts of mineral-water, due to excessive thirst, but no amount of water was enough as I really needed some raw fruit, instead. By the 5th/6th weeks, life became an absolute hell, getting additional headaches etc. etc.,  and I would feel literally like I was dying, so I had no choice but to give up on raw, zero-carb or face hospitalisation, and, eventually, death.

I remember hearing something being claimed on various diet-forums about how going zero-carb puts an excessive strain on one's glandular system. So that, presumably, people with a reasonably healthy glandular system, from the get-go, might be fine on it, whether for a period or even  in the long-term. But anyone who has ever had issues with their (adrenal/thyroid etc.) glands in the past(which is a majority of those on SAD-diets, IMO), even if they've healed as a result of raw foods, night be well advised to stay away from zero-carb like the plague.

Of course, it's just a theory, like any other.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline Ioanna

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2009, 10:52:33 am »
Quote
As regards plants, I have had enough personal experience that makes it clear that raw plants, especially fruits, are essential for optimum huma health, albeit in small quantities. No plant-food whatsoever in the diet, at best greatly reduces physical performance, and, for many people such as myself, it causes  very terminal health-problems in the long run.

Tyler, I appreciate your experiences with a zero-carb approach way of eating, but are you drawing a conclusion about what is optimum for human health solely from your personal experiences or is there more to it?  My experience is the complete opposite of yours.  In fact, I didn't even know zero-carb was some way of eating, I arrived at it by eliminating all the foods that gave me horrible abdominal pains.  Sick and tired of going extensions without eating to avoid pain, and then enduring the pain when I did finally eat I thought, 'okay this is it... there has got to be at least one food that won't make me ill that I can eat'. I didn't care if it was olives (I hate olives, lol), but I was determined to find a source of compatible nourishment.  And I did, turns out to be eggs, meat, fish... and here I am at this forum!  I cannot express the relief I have to actually be able to enjoy eating, it's so much that the social barriers that exist (I know I've caused them myself, but nonetheless...) are so secondary. It's only been few months, but I don't have any decrease in physical activity whatsoever, I'm sure.  I won't go so far as to say it has increased, but probably since I'm actually eating now and I'm happier. Are you suggesting I should be worried for my long-term health?

Thanks,
Ioanna

Offline Hannibal

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2009, 12:03:50 pm »
  Are you suggesting I should be worried for my long-term health?
maybe it is good for you to do zero-carb for some period of time, so that you'll heal from your abdominal problems
but cutting all carbs and eating only "meat and fat" for the rest of your life wouldn't be good - that's certainly not paleo
albeit for now this zero-carb could be the only option :)
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Nicola

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 06:26:11 pm »
As regards plants, I have had enough personal experience that makes it clear that raw plants, especially fruits, are essential for optimum huma health, albeit in small quantities. No plant-food whatsoever in the diet, at best greatly reduces physical performance, and, for many people such as myself, it causes  very terminal health-problems in the long run.

I know you know it all better - so take your pepper (laxative) and eat your fruit for optimum humane health :(

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2009, 07:13:25 pm »
I know you know it all better - so take your pepper (laxative) and eat your fruit for optimum humane health :(

*sigh* - I wasn't suggesting that I need to eat raw spices all the time. It's just an experiment.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 08:01:42 pm »
Tyler, I appreciate your experiences with a zero-carb approach way of eating, but are you drawing a conclusion about what is optimum for human health solely from your personal experiences or is there more to it?  My experience is the complete opposite of yours.  In fact, I didn't even know zero-carb was some way of eating, I arrived at it by eliminating all the foods that gave me horrible abdominal pains.  Sick and tired of going extensions without eating to avoid pain, and then enduring the pain when I did finally eat I thought, 'okay this is it... there has got to be at least one food that won't make me ill that I can eat'. I didn't care if it was olives (I hate olives, lol), but I was determined to find a source of compatible nourishment.  And I did, turns out to be eggs, meat, fish... and here I am at this forum!  I cannot express the relief I have to actually be able to enjoy eating, it's so much that the social barriers that exist (I know I've caused them myself, but nonetheless...) are so secondary. It's only been few months, but I don't have any decrease in physical activity whatsoever, I'm sure.  I won't go so far as to say it has increased, but probably since I'm actually eating now and I'm happier. Are you suggesting I should be worried for my long-term health?

Thanks,
Ioanna

I am not suggesting that zero-carb is automatically a disaster for everyone. What concerns me, though, is this:- most Arctic tribes do eat berries in summer, even if they eat practically 99-100% meats, raw or cooked, at other times. They , presumably, also eat the fermented stomach-contents(ie plant-matter) of the animal-carcasses they cut up. So, 100% carnivorous diet for life, for humans, may be  rarer than expected.

 Plus, a lot of people do very badly on zero-carb, raw or otherwise, judging from reports of RPDers. I'm not the only one. Though, I'll grant that the overwhelming majority of people do better on raw,low-carb(<35%) than raw, high-carb(like Instincto)(80%+ raw plant-foods).

While there are individual differences in adaptation or non-adaptation to zero-carb, the evidence re loss of physical performance is pretty much across the board - I'm assuming you do low-level exercise so don't notice much difference? Certainly, I (and a number of raw athletes on other groups) have noticed a distinct, massive drop in physical performance when cutting out all carbs from the diet, such as having no endurance or losing physical strength. Plus most photos of long-term zero-carbers show them to be rather too light of weight and not very muscular(indeed same happens to me when I've been extremely VLC or 0 carb) , requiring quite some time to recover from very harsh exercise etc..  This is in stark contrast to the widely reported massive physical attributes/exercise-levels of Palaeo tribespeople, (re evidence of bones), which seems to imply, IMO, that these Cro-Magnon  must have had some carbs in their diet. To date, it has been pointed out that no modern athlete nowadays follow a genuine zero-carb diet, which rather proves things.



Still, you certainly seem to be doing the right thing for now. That is, you're just doing whatever works for you now and discarding what doesn't, rather than following a dietary philosophy - so keep at it since it's working, and  change it in slight ways via experimentation, should it ever not work any more.

(I once made the mistake of believing in some Primal Dieters' claims that my symptoms from raw dairy were just "detox" and/or that I was  somehow uniquely guilty/at fault for having a "leaky gut" or some such nonsense - the result was it took me 6 months before I realised my health was way more important than following the rules of any diet, and cut out the raw dairy(and subsequently healed). Since then, while I do believe in the concept of detox, I find that a genuine detox is one which is relatively minor and of short duration - a fake detox is when the symptoms you have keep on getting worse and never improving the longer you're doing things wrong re diet).
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline Hannibal

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2009, 08:06:41 pm »
I am not suggesting that zero-carb is automatically a disaster for everyone. What concerns me, though, is this:- most Arctic tribes do eat berries in summer, even if they eat practically 99-100% meats, raw or cooked, at other times. They , presumably, also eat the fermented stomach-contents(ie plant-matter) of the animal-carcasses they cut up. So, 100% carnivorous diet for life, for humans, may be  rarer than expected.
That's very true
look at the coyotes - they are carnivorous, they do like carrion, but they also eat some fruits and vegetables
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline igibike

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2009, 08:47:04 pm »
While there are individual differences in adaptation or non-adaptation to zero-carb, the evidence re loss of physical performance is pretty much across the board - I'm assuming you do low-level exercise so don't notice much difference? Certainly, I (and a number of raw athletes on other groups) have noticed a distinct, massive drop in physical performance when cutting out all carbs from the diet, such as having no endurance or losing physical strength. Plus most photos of long-term zero-carbers show them to be rather too light of weight and not very muscular(indeed same happens to me when I've been extremely VLC or 0 carb) , requiring quite some time to recover from very harsh exercise etc..  This is in stark contrast to the widely reported massive physical attributes/exercise-levels of Palaeo tribespeople, (re evidence of bones), which seems to imply, IMO, that these Cro-Magnon  must have had some carbs in their diet. To date, it has been pointed out that no modern athlete nowadays follow a genuine zero-carb diet, which rather proves things.

I experienced lack of power and excessively long recovery time after work out if carbs are too low.
I believe low carb/very low carb is the best human nutrition strategy.
While zero carb may be good in some pathological case or if one is not doing loads of hard exercise, it is not generally affordable by relatively ambitious athletes.
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 09:10:34 pm »
That's very true
look at the coyotes - they are carnivorous, they do like carrion, but they also eat some fruits and vegetables


My understanding is that canines are opportunistic carnivores. They will supposedly only eat plant foods if there are insufficient flesh foods available. So while they can survive on some plant foods, their optimal diet is believed to be 100% carnivore or very nearly so. Years ago I looked up analyses of African wild dog diets and they were 100% carnivorous--apparently there was sufficient prey available.

Here are some of the sources I found at the time (there may be some expired links):

African Wild Dog
http://www.whozoo.org/Intro98/michaelg/michgree.htm

Wild Dogs: Lowveld Wild Dogs Project
http://www.mluri.sari.ac.uk/wilddogs/wddiet.htm

African Wild Dog: Habitat & Diet
http://www.123spot.com/AnimalDirectory/africanwilddogs2.htm

Third Kruger Park Wild Dog Photographic Survey
http://www.parks-sa.co.za/conservation/scientific_services/ss_wild_dog_survey.html

Did anyone who lost strength or endurance on zero carb try pemmican as an energy source? Some people have claimed that works as well for them as carbs.

Interesting perspectives here. Playing devil's advocate, how does one explain those Greenland Inuit who were found to be 99% carnivore on average (meaning that some individuals must have been 100% carnivore), with only small amounts of summer berries eaten by some? Must we assume that they had low energy and strength? How did they find the energy to hunt whale? On the other hand, most Inuit in other areas were found to eat more plant foods than that.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hannibal

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2009, 02:21:25 am »
My understanding is that canines are opportunistic carnivores. They will supposedly only eat plant foods if there are insufficient flesh foods available. So while they can survive on some plant foods, their optimal diet is believed to be 100% carnivore or very nearly so.
Even if you are right about canines being opportunistic it is still true that in natural wild environment carnivorous have also eaten some berries and plants for millions of years
being 100% carnivorous is then unnatural
Interesting perspectives here. Playing devil's advocate, how does one explain those Greenland Inuit who were found to be 99% carnivore on average (meaning that some individuals must have been 100% carnivore), with only small amounts of summer berries eaten by some? Must we assume that they had low energy and strength? How did they find the energy to hunt whale? On the other hand, most Inuit in other areas were found to eat more plant foods than that.
yeah, I do know quite a lot about Innuits and their diet
but they haven't lived in natural environment for humans - hence their lifespan has been shorter
homo sapiens has lived for millions of years in warm climate and fruits and plants have been present in their diet
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2009, 03:11:39 am »
Interesting perspectives here. Playing devil's advocate, how does one explain those Greenland Inuit who were found to be 99% carnivore on average (meaning that some individuals must have been 100% carnivore), with only small amounts of summer berries eaten by some? Must we assume that they had low energy and strength? How did they find the energy to hunt whale? On the other hand, most Inuit in other areas were found to eat more plant foods than that.

Re dogs:- I believe that dogs can be fed on veg. Indeed, some extreme vegans force their dogs to eat only vegan or vegeterian meals. It's only cats who are obligate carnivores.

Re "Paleophil":- Out of curiosity, are you also the "Paleophil" on the paleofood list?

Re pemmican:- Well, I've never felt the need to eat pemmican. Pemmican, after all, isn't a raw food, so it's only really seen as a possibility for those raw, zero-carbers who refuse to eat any carbs at all, and who find themselves in a situation where they can't find decent equivalent raw food sources. Most RAFers, instead, find that eating amounts of raw carbs(like raw fruit), during times of meat-scarcity,  is a far better alternative to eating cooked-animal-food as the latter generally gives detox-reactions(eg:- a hangover-like effect) once consumed, while eating raw fruit does no such harm(at least not to raw low-carbers).

While I haven't bothered to try pemmican, partly due to rather negative reactions to cooked-foods and partly due to the excessive waste of time involved in preparing any cooked-/processed foods, I have gone in for eating heated suet(as a taste-experiment) , some years ago while attempting zero-carb. The effects were disastrous, and made me realise that cooked-animal-fat is something my body finds highly toxic(however 100% grassfed/organic it may be), more toxic, indeed, than cooked lean meat or even cooked carbs. So heated animal fats are not a solution for me re increasing physical activity, quite the opposite.

(I've done some experiments when walking in the Alps, with a sort of equivalent  "raw pemmican"(ie nothing processed, just carrying with me some lean-meats mixed in with raw marrow or suet. of course, the stuff would rapidly rot due to the meat but I'd consume it mostly or wholly  within 5 days, regardless. Inevitably, by the 3rd day, I would be utterly exhausted, with no stamina, and no amount of the lean-meat/fat mixture would help re increasing endurance. I'd end up looking ridiculous and having to rest constantly for 5 minutes each time while other hikers sauntereed past me).


Other points re pemmican:- Not only does high heat have to be used on pemmican in order to preserve it for ages, which casues an increased level of heat-created toxins to appear, but, any foods, even raw foods, that are stored for very long periods tend to develop oxidisation(oxidised fats are very toxic) and rancidity etc.. Now, sealing pemmican in vacuum-packs and freezing it can prevent(or slow down?) the rancidity and the oxidation, but the issue of heat-created toxins still remains. Plus, the whole raison-d'etre of raw-foodism is to eat foods in fresh form. As someone else pointed out on another forum, pemmican is no different from much of the cooked/processed junk-food that's designed by supermarkets to last for months/years on the shelves. It;'s the same princicple involved:- lowering the quality of the food so as to extend its storage-life.

re the above point re oxidation(taken from other group):-  
 
> And if you're concerned about the possibility of cancer (as we all
> should be in this toxic world we've created for ourselves), here's a
> quote from the Summary of Holistic Cancer Therapy in "Overcoming
> Cancer" by Walter Last:
>
>
>
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."



Re Inuit:- Well, it depends on the source and who you believe, I guess. If I were to believe Michael from the RAV-Food list, he's an anti-PUFA campaigner who believes that the Inuit were afflicted with rapid aging as a result of their diet(he refers to Stefansson's well-known comment in the fat of the land boook etc.,  about how  the Inuit he saw  aged much faster   than people on standard(lower-PUFA diets)). He was more concerned with the PUFA issue, but it could always have been the zero-carbs which were at fault.

Another point is that the Inuit are following diets quite unlike what the vast majority of (raw or cooked) zero-carbers are doing. The Inuit(on traditional diets), after all, eat vast amounts of  seafood, raw or cooked, including plenty of aged meats and a variety of  organ-meats, yet most zero-carbers don't seem to value either aged meat , let alone seafood, they just concentrate on fatty muscle-meats and water, for the most part, which is not very much like the Inuit diet of rotting whalemeat, seal-blubber etc.

Also, it's been claimed by some scientists that the Inuit have specially adapted, on a genetic level, to zero-carb diets over many generations, so that they're less affected than people who start them only  later in life etc.. This makes some sense if you've read about the science of "epigenetics" which has shown how smoking by a grandfather can, for instance, influence the gene-expression of their grandchildren etc.

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2009, 07:38:50 am »
On pemmican, we have the conundrum of the record of the voyageurs who drove (with paddles!) the fur trade canoes thousands of miles across Canada fuelled entirely by pemmican and the rare herbs they could gather along the way such as wild onion and or garlic.
It's possible that the fat used to make their pemmican was not what we think.

Inuit diet: I was in Stefansson territory, about 140 miles NE of Tuktoyaktuk in the summer and never saw a berry, bush nor heard of anyone ever gathering such a thing. AFAIK it's the same all the way to the Davis Strait. The berry-eating Inuit must be the Alaskans and Greenlanders who live in relatively warm places.
IMHO they aged relatively quickly because of the polluted air in their dwelling places. Soot, eh?

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2009, 08:41:38 am »
Even if you are right about canines being opportunistic it is still true that in natural wild environment carnivorous have also eaten some berries and plants for millions of years
being 100% carnivorous is then unnatural
It's also true that the evidence suggests the primary and optimal diet for canines in the wild is carnivorous and that plant foods are basically last-resort foods. I would need to see counter-evidence before I would believe that 100% carnivore is unnatural for canines. They are not obligate carnivores, but to say that 100% carnivorous is therefore "unnatural" for them seems a stretch. That would seem to be like saying that eating beef and fish is unnatural if one doesn't also eat pork. Canines appear to do very well indefinitely on a carnivorous diet (and I also know some pet owners who have fed their dogs 100% carnivorous diets for many years and the dogs are apparently doing well). If you check those links I provided you'll find that the wild dog diets that were analyzed did not include any plant foods at all.

Quote
I do know quite a lot about Innuits and their diet
but they haven't lived in natural environment for humans - hence their lifespan has been shorter
homo sapiens has lived for millions of years in warm climate and fruits and plants have been present in their diet
Yes, but my question was how can we claim that a zero carb diet results in zero energy when zero-carb Inuit hunted whales? I eat some plant foods myself, so I'm not arguing against eating any plant foods, but I recognize that whale-hunting takes some energy.

Re dogs:- I believe that dogs can be fed on veg. Indeed, some extreme vegans force their dogs to eat only vegan or vegeterian meals. UIt's only cats who are obligate carnivores.
Quite right, and many of those extreme vegans use the bogus argument that if dogs can eat plant foods that they must be very good for them and therefore don't need meat. Again, I'm not arguing that dogs are obligate carnivores and I acknowledged from the start that they can eat some plant foods. That doesn't mean that plant foods are necessarily optimal for them. A dog owner once claimed to me that pancakes must be good for his dog because his dog likes them. Humans can eat and survive on the SAD diet, but that doesn't mean that SAD is optimal for humans.

Quote
Re "Paleophil":- Out of curiosity, are you also the "Paleophil" on the paleofood list?
Yes.

Quote
Re pemmican:- Well, I've never felt the need to eat pemmican. Pemmican, after all, isn't a raw food, so it's only really seen as a possibility for those raw, zero-carbers who refuse to eat any carbs at all, and who find themselves in a situation where they can't find decent equivalent raw food sources.
OK, thanks for clarifying that. So if I decide to try zero carb and don't mind eating some tallow that has been heated, it sounds like pemmican would supply energy, though it might have other negative effects you talk about.

Quote
Most RAFers, instead, find that eating amounts of raw carbs(like raw fruit), during times of meat-scarcity,  is a far better alternative to eating cooked-animal-food as the latter generally gives detox-reactions(eg:- a hangover-like effect) once consumed, while eating raw fruit does no such harm(at least not to raw low-carbers).
It's interesting to see the different perspectives between the zero-carbers and 99-100% rawists. Zero-carbers tend to claim the opposite--that they get toxic reactions from eating carbs, but not necessarily from some cooked food--even if they eat mostly raw. I'll bet there have been some hum-dinger arguments over it. :-) I'm not currently doing either 100%--just learning with an open mind at this point.

Quote
.... So heated animal fats are not a solution for me re increasing physical activity, quite the opposite.
Yeah, it definitely sounds like they didn't work for you.

I'm interested in pemmican as a convenience food and more socially acceptable food than raw meat, in addition to the long storage life. If I experience the terrible effects that you did with it I won't keep eating it, but so far I haven't. My other alternative semi-Paleo convenience food is mixes of nuts and dried fruits--basically trail mix. I find nuts alone to be too dry and bland. I do well overall on trail mixes, but my dental health fares a bit worse than with jerky and pemmican, and since I've moved toward a more carnivorous diet (though I still include raw organic spring greens, berries, bananas and some other foods I seem to do well on), I've had some amazing improvements in my teeth and gums and in other ways.

Quote
Another point is that the Inuit are following diets quite unlike what the vast majority of (raw or cooked) zero-carbers are doing. The Inuit(on traditional diets), after all, eat vast amounts of  seafood, raw or cooked, including plenty of aged meats and a variety of  organ-meats, yet most zero-carbers don't seem to value either aged meat , let alone seafood, they just concentrate on fatty muscle-meats and water, for the most part, which is not very much like the Inuit diet of rotting whalemeat, seal-blubber etc.
OK, so what I'm getting out of this is, that if the right special foods are included then there will be sufficient energy provided by a zero-carb diet, but it may be difficult to get them in the modern societies or they may have carcinogenic or aging effects.

Quote
Also, it's been claimed by some scientists that the Inuit have specially adapted, on a genetic level, to zero-carb diets over many generations, so that they're less affected than people who start them only  later in life etc.. This makes some sense if you've read about the science of "epigenetics" which has shown how smoking by a grandfather can, for instance, influence the gene-expression of their grandchildren etc.
I don't buy that one. The people who claim that tend to be vegetarians/vegans with a predetermined agenda, looking for excuses to justify it. I say to them, "Show me the evidence." Most of the Inuit are believed to have migrated to the Arctic less than 10,000 years ago--some mere centuries ago. I am familiar with epigenetics, but I haven't seen scientists use it to explain the Inuit paradox. Also, there are people right in this forum and others who have been doing near-zero-carb for years without apparent ill effect. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone, of course--just means that we don't need epigenetics to explain Inuit survival and energy on zero carb diets.

Plus, if we claim that the Inuit underwent a special adaptation to zero carb via epigenetics in under 10,000 years, then we would also have to take seriously the vegetarian/vegan claims that people from societies that have been eating grains  for 10-20,000 years (the date keeps getting pushed back as roasted grains are found at older and older cooksites) and yams for far longer have also adapted via epigenetics. We can't use the argument ourselves and not allow our critics to do the same.

Thanks for the input. It's good to get different perspectives.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2009, 07:14:48 pm »
OK, thanks for clarifying that. So if I decide to try zero carb and don't mind eating some tallow that has been heated, it sounds like pemmican would supply energy, though it might have other negative effects you talk about.
It's interesting to see the different perspectives between the zero-carbers and 99-100% rawists. Zero-carbers tend to claim the opposite--that they get toxic reactions from eating carbs, but not necessarily from some cooked food--even if they eat mostly raw. I'll bet there have been some hum-dinger arguments over it. :-) I'm not currently doing either 100%--just learning with an open mind at this point.

Yes, it is interesting. What I found when doing extreme VLC or zero-carb was that I quickly couldn't tolerate most raw carbs any more. At first, it would be fruits like dates, then it would even include berries, if I did VLC or 0-carb long enough. The standard explanation for this is NOT that carbs are  themselves unhealthy, but that the bacteria which feed on/digest carbs in the gut get wiped out if no carbs are consumed for long periods, thus making digestion of carbs more difficult. As regards the cooked-food-issue, I've heard claims that detox can be stopped if one readds enough cooked-foods(c.50% of diet?) - the Aajonus interpretation of that would be that that large an amount of cooked-foods overwhelms the body thus diverting the toxins into the fat-cells instead of them being expelled.(I notice that as I quickly get obese if I eat any cooked animal food).
I should add that the raw, zero-carbers(who do mostly raw) do actually report having some detox-
issues after eating cooked-foods(you'd have to look at the archives of this and the rawpaleodiet yahoo group) but that, I presume, from the accounts, ihas less of a negative effect than the raw carbs, at least in their case.

Quote

I'm interested in pemmican as a convenience food and more socially acceptable food than raw meat, in addition to the long storage life. If I experience the terrible effects that you did with it I won't keep eating it, but so far I haven't. My other alternative semi-Paleo convenience food is mixes of nuts and dried fruits--basically trail mix. I find nuts alone to be too dry and bland. I do well overall on trail mixes, but my dental health fares a bit worse than with jerky and pemmican, and since I've moved toward a more carnivorous diet (though I still include raw organic spring greens, berries, bananas and some other foods I seem to do well on), I've had some amazing improvements in my teeth and gums and in other ways.
OK, so what I'm getting out of this is, that if the right special foods are included then there will be sufficient energy provided by a zero-carb diet, but it may be difficult to get them in the modern societies or they may have carcinogenic or aging effects.

I wouldn't necessarily call pemmican "socially acceptable". I've sen pictures of it and it sure looks disgusting in appearance. Raw fruit, by contrast, is no big deal for SAD-eaters as they do it all the time.
Quote
I don't buy that one. The people who claim that tend to be vegetarians/vegans with a predetermined agenda, looking for excuses to justify it. I say to them, "Show me the evidence." Most of the Inuit are believed to have migrated to the Arctic less than 10,000 years ago--some mere centuries ago. I am familiar with epigenetics, but I haven't seen scientists use it to explain the Inuit paradox. Also, there are people right in this forum and others who have been doing near-zero-carb for years without apparent ill effect. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone, of course--just means that we don't need epigenetics to explain Inuit survival and energy on zero carb diets.

Plus, if we claim that the Inuit underwent a special adaptation to zero carb via epigenetics in under 10,000 years, then we would also have to take seriously the vegetarian/vegan claims that people from societies that have been eating grains  for 10-20,000 years (the date keeps getting pushed back as roasted grains are found at older and older cooksites) and yams for far longer have also adapted via epigenetics. We can't use the argument ourselves and not allow our critics to do the same.

Thanks for the input. It's good to get different perspectives.

What I mean is that epigenetics can easily explain Inuit adaptation as effects of epigenetics(re the grandfather/smoking connection I gave you) as it can occur over after only a few generations and the Inuit lived at least 10,000 years in the Arctic(actually, given the Bering Strait crossover, it does seem more likely that they were in the Arctic from c.15,000 BC, but anyway).



As regards adaptation to grains, remember that human(or any other) DNA is extremely fluid. For example, I get a far lower reaction to grains than most rawpalaeos, yet I have a much stronger reaction any kind of dairy than most RPDers, as well. So, IMO, there must be some limited adaptation going on(even if not remotely 100%).

Re zero-carb:- What gets me re this is the notion of needing weeks or months to get any of the supposed benefits of zero-carb. When I first started the raw ZC diet, I was told to expect a few weeks(what Stefansson said), now it's several months or years if one believes the claims.Plus, if one so much as backslides, one has to go through the whole process all over again(though perhaps at a reduced rate). And for me, anything more than 6 weeks carb-free is avery dangerous.

. I'd imagine that an Inuit bred on a near-zero-carb diet since birth would not only be much less likely to get negative effects from eating any berries in the summer but they would be better placed re epigenetics etc. to
hunt etc. while on zero-carb. But it does seem a bit of an effort to wait for most of a lifetime to get the equivalent benefits that one can get on lc or vlc.

“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2009, 08:07:08 pm »
Forgot to mention that I haven't done much whole-day fasting until more recent times when I did a 6-day-long fast(just mineral-water, nothing else). I notice again and again that I look so much better(re glistening skin, looking handsomer, more vital etc.) when I fast. I seriously think that this has to do with the fact that the body gets increasingly burdened and worn down by the process of digestion so that too frequent eating speeds up aging:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting

Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone does a rigid regime of alternate-day fasting but not eating for a whole day, here and there should work wonders for some people.  I suspect that even eating the healthiest, rawest food does place a tiny burden on the body so that constant digestion wears the body down re aging, requiring occasional palaeo-fasting to alleviate that. It's just that eating cooked foods is even worse given the additional burden of heat-created toxins in cooked-foods.
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Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2009, 08:19:57 pm »
how much mineral water you drink during a water fast?