Author Topic: Celeste's journal  (Read 11491 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Celeste's journal
« on: February 04, 2014, 07:39:16 am »
Well, thought I'd start a journal to keep track of experiments... progress, instead of the welcoming pages. I watched the film Eveheart recommended today. My favorite part was how they could tell by bone analysis how much plant and animal foods people at that time were eating. This is interesting to me as I have asked the question ZC or not ZC? I'm already clear about no grains. It's mostly over dairy, how much plant foods, source of fats.

Just had a snack of blueberries, walnuts and cultured heavy cream. After reading others responses to me regarding dairy, thought I'd give it a try. Maybe it will help to settle my nervous system. Fats do have a way of relaxing the body. The pain in my arm is subsiding. A nap sounds good.



Offline paper_clips43

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 07:45:01 am »
There are many testimonials, just on this Forum alone, and myself included that had disastrous results from attempting ZC. Its been one year since my attempt at ZC and I am still recovering from the damages done.

PaleoPhil has recently posted many articles and studies about the extreme harmful effects of ZC and might be worth checking out.

I don't mean to tell you what to do I just wish someone had mentioned the negative consequences of ZC before I tried it.
Gnawing on bones.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,585
  • Country: ph
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 08:16:45 am »
I think Raw ZC should be used as a temporary remedy, not long term. 

...And not for beginners of RPD.

I used 3 days of Raw ZC for my then 5 yr old daughter to stop inflammation in a tooth infection.  The dentist wanted antibiotics for 7 days.  I gave Raw ZC to the girl for 3 days.  The dentist said in 3 days the pain will be taken away by antibiotics.  Raw ZC took away the pain in 2 days.

I gave her raw bone marrow, raw liver and raw muscle meat plus mineral water.

Offline Ioanna

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,339
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 09:00:43 am »
I didn't have problems when ZC. I feel it was a necessary part of my healing.  It was not initially a conscious decision to eat according to a certain dogma, I just ate what my body would tolerate.  Then came the internet search that led me to AV, this forum, and all the rest :)


Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 11:14:50 am »
There are many testimonials, just on this Forum alone, and myself included that had disastrous results from attempting ZC. Its been one year since my attempt at ZC and I am still recovering from the damages done.

PaleoPhil has recently posted many articles and studies about the extreme harmful effects of ZC and might be worth checking out.

I don't mean to tell you what to do I just wish someone had mentioned the negative consequences of ZC before I tried it.
Believe me, this is the kind of feedback I need. I've done it before raw and cooked, and there was a point each time where my body said no. But thought maybe I was not doing it right. Maybe needed more minerals... etc.

What happened to you over the long run? Are those articles under health?

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 11:19:57 am »
Thank you all for the feedback on the ZC question. It helps to see it as a tool, not a permanent WOE.

Offline Inger

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: de
  • Gender: Female
  • 38 yo Norwegian RVAF s.-06, 90% carniv.
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 07:20:25 pm »
I think it has to do with our mitochondria being rather bad... or something not working properly in the body, why you do not tolerate a ZC diet. I think it would be important to get labs done to sort out the issues. We are meant to be able to function and burn fat for fuel as human. That is why we have fat on our bodies too. When we cannot, we should not blame the diet but look what is wrong with our body instead and fix it.

I think most of us drink way too little water. And chlorinated tap water won't do. It needs to be spring or well water or RO. The water quality is a big issue.

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 01:09:32 am »
I think it has to do with our mitochondria being rather bad... or something not working properly in the body, why you do not tolerate a ZC diet. I think it would be important to get labs done to sort out the issues. We are meant to be able to function and burn fat for fuel as human. That is why we have fat on our bodies too. When we cannot, we should not blame the diet but look what is wrong with our body instead and fix it.

I think most of us drink way too little water. And chlorinated tap water won't do. It needs to be spring or well water or RO. The water quality is a big issue.
I do want to do labs once I'm healed enough to get around. Thanks for the input on the ZC. What percentage of the time have you used it? I notice you do eat berries and wild greens. Once when we were camping in Maine in the woods I ate some wild ferns and greens.  :) I love reading how you sleep in  your tent surrounded by nature. Being connected to nature is important to me. Besides hiking every weekend (prior) we took out our lawns front and back and planted a native garden. Lots of sages, yarrow, native grasses, wild grapes, currants, and  rushes. Having my hands in the dirt is so healing to me.

About water, an important topic, I bet you have great water there. My concern is beginning to be, is there bacteria in the water to be life sustaining. If I have been using RO water and this supplement Concentrace (a ancient sea bed concentrate solar refined) would these minerals not get used. I need to call the company and get more info. For now I'm going to stop using it just in case.

In searching I could not find the email AV had sent out regarding Gerolsteiner having bacteria. I did find an email though where I referred to my initial consult with AV and his telling me some of my metal toxicity came from using mezotrace/concentrace. I know Sally Fallon lists trace mineral liquid or powders among favorable supplements in Nourishing Traditions. Until I know though I'm going to leave it out. I may even consider doing dairy again. I just need to heal.

Offline paper_clips43

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 01:14:03 am »
Believe me, this is the kind of feedback I need. I've done it before raw and cooked, and there was a point each time where my body said no. But thought maybe I was not doing it right. Maybe needed more minerals... etc.

What happened to you over the long run? Are those articles under health?


I definitely agree with Inger about getting your labs done.

When I did ZC I lost 25 pounds which means I went from 150 to 125 in two weeks. I had the feeling of not being able to breathe like a 50 pound weight was on my chest. I also started to get a raised bump of skin next to my nose which I have later found out is related to the liver.

I got a sinus infection from it that has lasted a year now and is just barely going away since I have started eating lots and lots of fruit and honey and raw milk. I average about 300-500 carbs a day and feel really well doing so. I am not advocating this for anyone just saying what I have found to work for me.

My temperatures were rather low like 94-96 F after my ZC experiment.

Now since I have been eating three months of lots and lots of raw carbs my temperature is 97-98 F and my skin and weight are much much better.

If you scroll to the bottom of the homepage you can see “recent posts” and there is a lot of activity going on with the ZC topics and gut bacteria mainly from PaleoPhil who advocates a resistant starch to help keep good bacteria up.

Here is an article explaining how a basically low carb animal protein based diet alters our gut bacteria in a negative way.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/12/10/250007042/chowing-down-on-meat-and-dairy-alters-gut-bacteria-a-lot-and-quickly
Gnawing on bones.

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 05:40:18 am »
I definitely agree with Inger about getting your labs done.

When I did ZC I lost 25 pounds which means I went from 150 to 125 in two weeks. I had the feeling of not being able to breathe like a 50 pound weight was on my chest. I also started to get a raised bump of skin next to my nose which I have later found out is related to the liver.

I got a sinus infection from it that has lasted a year now and is just barely going away since I have started eating lots and lots of fruit and honey and raw milk. I average about 300-500 carbs a day and feel really well doing so. I am not advocating this for anyone just saying what I have found to work for me.

My temperatures were rather low like 94-96 F after my ZC experiment.

Now since I have been eating three months of lots and lots of raw carbs my temperature is 97-98 F and my skin and weight are much much better.

If you scroll to the bottom of the homepage you can see “recent posts” and there is a lot of activity going on with the ZC topics and gut bacteria mainly from PaleoPhil who advocates a resistant starch to help keep good bacteria up.

Here is an article explaining how a basically low carb animal protein based diet alters our gut bacteria in a negative way.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/12/10/250007042/chowing-down-on-meat-and-dairy-alters-gut-bacteria-a-lot-and-quickly

That is interesting what you say. Last night after reading some on gut bacteria, I decided to add a little unheated honey to my meat and fermented veggies, butter I was eating. I prior have had very little appetite since the accident and had eaten VLC. I did sleep better. This morning I was looking up what AV had to say on brittle and broken bones. Besides the bone marrow (which I am doing) he had #1 drinking raw milk. I am strongly considering going back to it... maybe adding a little honey. I gain a lot of weight drinking milk, but think I'd be foolish to make weight loss my priority right now.

I still need to find out what this RS is. Thanks.

Offline paper_clips43

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 12:25:52 am »
That is interesting what you say. Last night after reading some on gut bacteria, I decided to add a little unheated honey to my meat and fermented veggies, butter I was eating. I prior have had very little appetite since the accident and had eaten VLC. I did sleep better. This morning I was looking up what AV had to say on brittle and broken bones. Besides the bone marrow (which I am doing) he had #1 drinking raw milk. I am strongly considering going back to it... maybe adding a little honey. I gain a lot of weight drinking milk, but think I'd be foolish to make weight loss my priority right now.

I still need to find out what this RS is. Thanks.


I feel better eating my meat with carbs as well. Usually in the form of honey or tropical fruit.

When I was raw paleo (no dairy) I ate resistant starch for about 5 months and felt like it was a wonderful addition to my diet at the time.
Then I decided I wanted raw dairy back in my diet and quickly found out that I could not handle both dairy and resistant starch in my diet. I have since then heard similar accounts from others experiences.
Some people, like PaleoPhil, are able to tolerate both resistant starch and raw dairy in the diet.
I am definitely not one of them though.

Here is where I learned pretty much everything on RS.
http://freetheanimal.com/
Gnawing on bones.

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 12:42:08 am »
Well I bought and drank raw milk last night. Then had a nice hot bath before bed. I awoke later to feel my intestines gurgling, familiar to my prior milk drinking experiences. I had the thought, "hmm not sure if this is going to work." Later though awoke to feel a strength and fluidity that has not been there since my accident in my arm. And when I awoke in the morning my first thought was not about my wrist at all for a few moments, which surprised me.

Regarding the fat/carb question, I've definitely had given preference to fats over carbs in the last few years. It is interesting though, when ZC I actually would get rather thick in the torso. I wonder if this has to do with the liver enlarging piece. It is hard to generalize though, as I think the source of the fat makes a lot of difference. Using marrow and bison back fat prior I would stay rather lean. But using butter or cooked tallow I would actually put on weight.

For now I think I need to do a little carb. How I'm eating is changing a lot daily, in these stages of learning. My plan to gain some stability is to do primal at least today and see how it feels. Yesterday, since I was not sure what to eat, I had skipped lunch and was very hungry at dinner, when I had raw meat (ground and roast) fermented veggies and cultured butter. I did not feel satisfied though. This may be an adjustment to adding more carbs. I think though, that it is not good for me to miss meals. Also I think I'll forgo honey for now. Its is a bit too carby for me.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,441
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 12:50:52 am »
Ignore all the scare-mongering re supposed dangers of RZC. Most of us all eventually realised that experimenting on our own bodies was a far better way to regain health than listneing to other people.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline paper_clips43

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 05:37:53 am »
Well I bought and drank raw milk last night. Then had a nice hot bath before bed. I awoke later to feel my intestines gurgling, familiar to my prior milk drinking experiences. I had the thought, "hmm not sure if this is going to work." Later though awoke to feel a strength and fluidity that has not been there since my accident in my arm. And when I awoke in the morning my first thought was not about my wrist at all for a few moments, which surprised me.

Regarding the fat/carb question, I've definitely had given preference to fats over carbs in the last few years. It is interesting though, when ZC I actually would get rather thick in the torso. I wonder if this has to do with the liver enlarging piece. It is hard to generalize though, as I think the source of the fat makes a lot of difference. Using marrow and bison back fat prior I would stay rather lean. But using butter or cooked tallow I would actually put on weight.

For now I think I need to do a little carb. How I'm eating is changing a lot daily, in these stages of learning. My plan to gain some stability is to do primal at least today and see how it feels. Yesterday, since I was not sure what to eat, I had skipped lunch and was very hungry at dinner, when I had raw meat (ground and roast) fermented veggies and cultured butter. I did not feel satisfied though. This may be an adjustment to adding more carbs. I think though, that it is not good for me to miss meals. Also I think I'll forgo honey for now. Its is a bit too carby for me.

I feel the exact same way when trying to re-introduce dairy back into my diet especially milk. One thing I found to help was taking sips of it very slowly and mixing it with saliva.

Of course, you probably already know this, it seems milk tolerance takes a few weeks to adjust too. The ability to digest dairy kinda takes a commitment, hehe.

Good to hear about your strength though, I always enjoy the feeling of my body praising me for putting the right nutrients in it.
Gnawing on bones.

Offline van

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 05:55:34 am »
Lactose is digested by lactase, which is formed in the colon by lactose digesting bacteria  and utilized by the liver to digest lactose.  One has to rebuild sufficient numbers of lactase to handle normal amounts of lactose found in milk.  Supplementation of lacto bacteria, implants or orally can help.  Or simply take very small amounts of milk initially and increase daily as your intestinal milk digesting bacteria increase.   

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 11:01:11 am »
Thanks for the feedback all. I am keeping it small amounts on the milk for now. Just a few sips after a meat meal. Also did add less than a teaspoon of honey after all. I think I remember something about it containing enzymes. After breakfast I was a little tired and took a nap. Later this evening though after dinner, my energy has been good. Energized even. And I don't feel hungry, my stomach feels pretty happy.

Specifically for calcium needs I'll be getting the raw milk and bone marrow. I think this will be better than the bone meal supplements.

I continue to read. I read Eveheart's journal, and am part way through Da Boss's.

Offline van

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 11:05:15 am »
May I suggest,,?   When milk goes into your stomach, it coagulates, or forms curds.  If you have other food there is will coagulate around those food particles, thus inhibiting further digestion of those particles.   Milk also tends to be rather on the alkaline side and will dilute stomach acids needed to digest meat.   Maybe this might help you to understand this. 

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 12:57:52 pm »
May I suggest,,?   When milk goes into your stomach, it coagulates, or forms curds.  If you have other food there is will coagulate around those food particles, thus inhibiting further digestion of those particles.   Milk also tends to be rather on the alkaline side and will dilute stomach acids needed to digest meat.   Maybe this might help you to understand this.
Of course, thank you Van. So you think it should be taken separately from the meat then? What about when the Masai drank milk and blood together?

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 03:05:45 pm »
Okay, so I went to the primal diet section and found the thread on the Masai men getting fat drinking milk and blood. Not a good plug for the primal diet! I don't have enough fat to not use butter currently. I need to find my way through all of this. There are so many options that I'm getting a little confused.  ???

Drinking milk alone, I do noticed my stomach negatively reacts to it more than when I had it today with meat. I've got to get my high meat going tomorrow.

Also on the RS issue, I could not eat potato starch. I once went to a nutritionist/dentist who prescribed a cooked paleo diet including potatoes. I had an allergic reaction to eating them where my face swelled up. I had a similar thing happen when eating sprouted nuts.

Hmm! Wonder what I'll eat tomorrow. So glad to be off work right now while I try to figure all this out.

Offline van

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 03:22:00 pm »
sorry if I may have added too much info.    Are you drinking raw or pasteurized milk.   The Masai I believe would actually let their mixture ferment or curdle.   So it was a cultured product.    Have to wonder why your stomach doesn't like it alone?   

Offline eveheart

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,316
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2014, 09:51:00 pm »
Also on the RS issue, I could not eat potato starch.


The way I approached the foods on the list of RS in foods was to divide the list into "paleo" (unprocessed foods that a paleolithic person would find in her environment) and "supplements" (non-"paleo" foods that might have therapeutic value to me personally).

That threw out the first two pages (bread/pasta/cereal and corn) and ended up with a "paleo" list that contained cashews, pistachios, and jicama (from another discussion). I added green mango and lesser yam because I can get those in Vietnamese stores in my area. The list is not exhaustive, but it's a good start.

Things like potato starch are on my "supplements" list - there is no way that paleolithic man could possibly have eaten this type of processed food, even if it is raw and unmodified. The suggested use that I read about for potato starch is to mix it in with high-carb foods like mashed potatoes to offset the high insulin release in insulin-resistant persons. If you do not fall into that category, you might not need potato starch. If you are trying to moderate insulin release, you might mix it in to some other food you eat, but don't go overboard right away because you will probably have an intestinal effect.

My opinion about a food like unripe banana is that it is not a "paleo" food by my definition because instinctively I wouldn't eat a food that tasted like that. I imagine that my clan would have known that bananas have to be yellow to taste good. Therefore, for me, unripe banana would be a "supplement" that you ate to obtain RS. IMO, why choke down a stinkin' green banana when you could eat a handful of cashews? Here is a discussion about how ripeness of fruit affects both taste and nutritional value: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/brix-and-health/msg71425/#msg71425. You don't need to use a refractometer to measure brix. Your nose and mouth can guide you.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline jessica

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,015
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2014, 10:25:01 pm »
IMO, why choke down a stinkin' green banana when you could eat a handful of cashews?


Cashew apples sound way more appealing IMO, lol.  To get to the actual cashew, one must brave a shell containing urushiol, which will blister your skin like poison oak/ivy. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashew

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2014, 12:39:50 am »
sorry if I may have added too much info.    Are you drinking raw or pasteurized milk.   The Masai I believe would actually let their mixture ferment or curdle.   So it was a cultured product.    Have to wonder why your stomach doesn't like it alone?
Raw milk. I think it may be the milk sugar. I did try about a month ago raw greek yogurt from Miller. It was tasty. I also had tried making kefir prior a few years back. It did make my face look weird... tired. I wanted this to work as the milk is an easy source. Also cause AV said so.  -\  This is where I can get into trouble if I don't place experience above theory. This was a good experience I think overall.

Offline Celeste

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2014, 12:56:00 am »
The way I approached the foods on the list of RS in foods was to divide the list into "paleo" (unprocessed foods that a paleolithic person would find in her environment) and "supplements" (non-"paleo" foods that might have therapeutic value to me personally).
Interesting. So, eveheart do you have a link to the list? Funny, I was busting my boyfriend's ass for giving pistachios to our dog, who likes them. And what would one eat an unripe banana with? I'm thinking on its own. And if were to get ripe what effect does it cause? I'm thinking unripe is just then starchy. At the zoo the bananas they give them are green, from what I've seen. Do you eat the yam raw? My goodness so much to learn.

Offline eveheart

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,316
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Celeste's journal
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2014, 01:17:28 am »
So, eveheart do you have a link to the list?


http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf. This is not a complete list - probably more foods will be tested as the RS concept becomes more popular. Just keep your eyes open.

I'm not an authority on food preparation, such as yams. There are many varieties - kinda like mushrooms - I ask about preparation from places where I buy the stuff. Usually, I just strike up a conversation with a few other shoppers, but that's because I live in a huge ethnic melting pot where I can find people who know about the foods being sold.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian