Author Topic: How many carbs do you need?  (Read 40981 times)

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Offline Kristelle

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2008, 10:13:18 pm »
Luigi,

I really suggest you talk directly with him...he's a really interesting guy. He has much more experience than I do and is much more active than I am.

Re: glycogen, the Bear states:
"The glycogen is only there as storage for quick adjustment of blood sugar levels"

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2008, 11:01:37 pm »
I think I'll be around, Andrew, don't worry.

Kristelle, Maybe I will write the bear, but my question, for what I see has no aswer:

Is there at least one athlete that's at elite level practicing zero carb ?
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline ezekiel

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 11:24:09 pm »
I think I'll be around, Andrew, don't worry.

Kristelle, Maybe I will write the bear, but my question, for what I see has no aswer:

Is there at least one athlete that's at elite level practicing zero carb ?
i'm going to do zero carb this winter, I excersize alot. 6 times a week. In the morning and the afternoon. Martial Arts, circuit, running, weight lifting, isometrics, etc. I will let you know how I feel on zero carb.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2008, 11:35:55 pm »
Yes you did answer my question. I look forward to your journal.

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2008, 12:08:08 am »
i'm going to do zero carb this winter, I excersize alot. 6 times a week. In the morning and the afternoon. Martial Arts, circuit, running, weight lifting, isometrics, etc. I will let you know how I feel on zero carb.

Yesss

this would be great  ;) ;) ;)

But one problem remains: your activities (even if practiced several times a day) are not continuous. It's different to have 4 hours diveded in 4 one hour workout and one 4 hours workout, I guess.
Endurnce sports are non-paleo activities. That's the reason why it doesn't work, in my opinion.
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline ezekiel

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2008, 12:42:49 am »
Each workout is an endurance workout. Endurance is simply the ability to keep going. I will beef up my running distance for you to really see how zero carb does for endurance.

Here is when and what I do ....

6 am= wake up, lift weights or do isometrics
9am= Run around in gym for 1 hour
3 pm=i do martial arts and run or jump rope or bikeride or circuit

Current Training
every other day=weight lifting and isometrics,finger and fist pushups, foot work training and bobby and weaving
every day=stretch,martial arts, forearm strengthening, back strengthening, stomach strengthening, endurance training

monday thru fri= school gym 1 hour

Sunday=off
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 12:47:32 am by Sully »

Satya

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2008, 12:57:40 am »
Endurance sports are non-paleo activities. That's the reason why it doesn't work, in my opinion.

This is exactly what I was thinking.  If you must take in carbs nearly daily (and not just vegetables or nonsweet fruit) in order to sustain an activity, chances are it is not paleo (depending on location and food availability, etc.).  That is why I tend to think that a marathon at full throttle was not in our evolutionary past much outside the tropics (and that is perhaps why people from the tropics excel at endurance sport.  Probably more of a HIIT model, I think.  That said, to each his own; enjoy your workout of choice.

I am not zero carb, but I am under 40 grams a day carbs consistently.  I practice taekwondo 4-6 days a week.  Yesterday I did 2.5 hours straight, including some sparring drills, which are very intense, short duration, but then the workout continues and the sweat pours.  I have been low carb for years and can sustain this kind of workout, no problem.  Usually people claim you need carbs for anaerobic training.  I have even done my workout on a fast of one grapefruit juice and one bone broth a day, but that felt strange at the end of 4 days.  I am not elite, but I am testing for 1st Dan black belt Saturday, and my conditioning and skill level are very good for my age.  I taught aerobics 6 days a week for 20 years in the past too, often 2 hours back to back.

I am very interested to see what Andrew will do zero carb endurance.  He is younger and chooses the running, which is great.  I will probably be teaching and training in taekwondo mostly, so I will not even try to experiment in this way.  Besides, I like my salads.  Though I do enjoy swimming, running and biking for recreation.  I love the outdoors.  Hey Andrew, how fast are you running at what distance?

This is not very scientific on how many carbs and what foods were eaten, but here is an example of an elite athlete: Ethiopian Mamo Wolde who finished a very elite time, even by modern standards, of 2:20:27 at the very high altitude of 2240 meters at the Mexico City Olympics in 1968, winning the gold medal in the marathon.  He ate a low-carb, traditional Ethiopian diet.

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2008, 02:03:05 am »
Sully experiment will be great, indeed.
We will see how long will he be able to sustain it...

Satya, I agree with you 100%.
Low carb is good (given the apporpriate recarge at the right time), zero carb laves me a lot of doubts.
Even body builders, that train in a paleo-like way go in ketosys, but a cyclical one, not a chronicle one.
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline Kristelle

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2008, 02:30:45 am »
Likewise, I could ask you, Luigi, has anyone of these elite performers ever tried to zero-carb for more than 8 weeks (allow for keto-adaptation)? Probably not. Perhaps the Bear can enlighten you and then you can share with us what he has to say. Deal?

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2008, 03:01:27 am »
Likewise, I could ask you, Luigi, has anyone of these elite performers ever tried to zero-carb for more than 8 weeks (allow for keto-adaptation)? Probably not. Perhaps the Bear can enlighten you and then you can share with us what he has to say. Deal?

Yes, maibe I'll write him and share his rply.
In the meanwhile I posted my journal, please have a look.


PS: I wrote the bear....
Let's see if he will answer, I'll post any news I get.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 09:31:43 pm by igibike »
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2008, 04:25:02 pm »
Here's "the Bear"'s reply:

1 - If muscle glycogen doesn't vary with exercise, why do we "hit the wall" ?
That is the liver, which on carbs fills with glycogen while removing it from the blood.  the bloating then interferes with blood transit and slows furnishing fat on demand.  After ketoadaptation, fat moves freely and the liver does not act as a first line of action (sweeper) to remove the glucose from the blood, first as glycogen, and then converting it into fatty acids..

  - A long adatpation period is needed to zero carb adaptation. What will happen if, after adaptation it happens to eat some carb ? Shall we wait for that long adaptation period after just one carb meal ?
Takes from two to four weeks only to keto-adapt.  Eating carbs will interfere with adaptation for the simple reason that glucose is so toxic it will kill you very quickly (diabetic coma) if not removed from the blood- thus the adaptation is quenched, insulin floods out and the carbs stored as fat... and you must start over.



2 - In a 2 minutes high intensity effort, after ATP depletion (ATP stoks endure just some 10 seconds) glycogen is needed to provide energy via the chain: glycogen - glucose - pyruvic acid - lactic acid
    This is what we know. It that chain wrong ? Is there a study that proves it wrong ?
It does not happen.  ONLY ATP provides the energy for muscular contractions, and is renewed by an enzymatic process involving n-carnityl-FFA complex.  You are completely wrong about the ATP supply.  What you have partially described (pyruvic/Krebs) is part of the conversion process for making fat from glucose.


3 - You say that you never get muscle soreness, but later you say that if you train hard you get doms. This is a contraddiction. What about a serious athlete who trains hard almost everydays ? I agree that one can train moderately with zero carb. But it's impossible to have big training volume with zero carb (recovery time will be too long)
Quite simple- if you train every day you will become weaker and smaller.  NO 'serious' athlete trains more than two or three days/week.  Your body does NOT grow from exercise, which actually damages it.  Working too heavy or for too long causes enough damage to make you sore, the proper level does not.  You only grow or improve in strength and fitness while resting and recovering from exercise.


4 - I agree with you that both muscle fibre type work on ATP-ADP, that is produced from fat, but when you have to resinthetize ATP quickly and in oxygen debt (anaerobically) glucose is needed to provide the required energy. This is chemistry. I agre that ADT-ATPis done with FFA (if there is enough oxygen). Where is the required energy taken, if there's not enough oxygen to oxidize FFA ? (i.e. working at an anaerobical regime)
No you are wrong again, as you have been from your first paragraph.


5 - You say you are a very active person, ok. But there's dofference between dancing and training just for hobby, or training hard everyday (someone twice a day) for racing and possibly get some good results. For instance I am a cyclist and my long rides are 4-5 hours at medium-high intensity. Do you see what I mean ?
I see that you have nothing to contribute, and like to make a lot of 'noise' about bullshit.  You haven't a clue as to my level of activity OR my fitness.  Only fools train twice a day.  Overtraining is not worthy of braggadocio.


6 - Again, glycogen is not the fuel, it's the energy source to produce ATP from FFA via lactic acid formation.
Wrong.

  - You say that glycogen only serves as a storage to regulate blood sugar levels. So, what's the purpose of sugar in blood, is we don't use it?
SOME tissues do use it- tendons, cartilage and dense nervous tissues for instance.
On a zero carb regime, we use a very small amount of glucose- <5gm/day in the presence of ketone bodies, a fat metabolite which substitutes for glucose and provides the major energy source for the few tissues unable to utilise fat.  The normal blood level is ~100 mg/dl, or a total in an average person of less than 5 gms.  Glucose is VERY toxic, only insulin is somewhat more damaging- but won't kill you quite so rapidly as excess blood glucose.

Take my advice, don't believe what you hear about diet and biomechanics- it is all rubbish.

If you like meat and love fat, and can eat it rare and without salt, and want to eat the all meat way, and are happy doing that, then go for it.  If not- then stay where you are.

I know it is the right way, but I really have no interest in arguing with anyone who can't accept what I have to say, and trust me, after 50 years eating this regime, there is no question whatsoever about what is real and what is nonsense.  Science?  All lies- told for money.

I am including my simple rules.  Be careful and don't obsess over the food- if you can't eat it with pleasure and without thinking much about it you should stay where you are dietary wise.
--

Cheers.

Well, it seems to me that he took my objections as an attack to his eating style. I was only trying to undestand what's beneath...
But I see that there's no science, it's a sort of "if you blind believe it, take it without proofs nor explanations".

Sincerely, I don't believe this is a fully safe regimen. Moreover it's practcically unaffordable for me.
I am forced to lunch out, and it is impossible to have a lunch that is 100% meat and fat (possibly raw). I would mean no possibily of going out with friends. Too sad for me.

The bear believes that glucose is evil and insuline too, I think insulin is the more powerful anabolic hormone and glucose (carbos) must be used to stimulate il at the right moment.

Bye bye

Luigi

Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2008, 06:31:20 pm »
Geez, dude seems pretty uptight.

As far as what he says about "you'll become weaker and smaller if you workout every day"
well, I'm about to test that. I'm about to change up my workout schedule from 3 times per week to 6 times per week, with one day of rest. They'll be short, but very intense workouts. We'll see if I get smaller and weaker.

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2008, 08:34:31 pm »
Geez, dude seems pretty uptight.


I had the same impression. I replied I didn't want to upset him, only trying to understand.

anyway, it seems impossible to find an athlete that is at a good level, gaining good result, that is at zerocarb...
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2008, 09:15:40 pm »
I had the same impression. I replied I didn't want to upset him, only trying to understand.

anyway, it seems impossible to find an athlete that is at a good level, gaining good result, that is at zerocarb...

Mamo Wolde has already  been mentioned as a low-carb athlete.

The Bear is always very aggressive, IMO. That's nearly always a bad sign, indicating a lack of solid evidence.

Still, I do wonder about the Eskimoes. It doesn't seem likely that they were unable to lift heavy weights or do continual heavy exercise on their zero-carb diets.

Re all-meat diet :- I heavily disagree with the notion that such a diet is unaffordable. I've actually found that decreasing the amounts of carbs in my diet has correspondingly reduced my appetite as I feel fuller on raw animal foods, with the result that my food-bills have been significantly reduced.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 09:18:34 pm by TylerDurden »
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline ezekiel

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2008, 09:43:57 pm »
Why do you guys even call it zero crab?

Eggs, liver, organs, and other animal foods contain carbs.   It would make more sense to call it "Zero Plant Matter" or 1% plant matter since you can't exclude it completely in micro forms.

Maybe zero carb should be considered 95 to 99% animal foods. 

Timber Wolves are considered carnivores, but they chew on grass and pine needles, so do tigers chew on grass.    Why do they do that?? Does anyone know? 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2008, 09:48:51 pm »
I know cats and other carnivores feed on grass, but they don't use it for digestion. It's been pointed out that cats eat grass only when they suffer from gastric distress:-

http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/grass.htm

Maybe eating grass etc.  just an attempt to vomit out a previous meal?
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Offline wodgina

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2008, 10:09:30 pm »
People say Zero carb because it's easy, we all know there's carbs in eggs, shellfish, muscle meat and organs.

I think 'raw carnivore' sounds better and makes the most sense, even if you eat small amounts of plant matter.
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Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2008, 10:19:15 pm »
Mamo Wolde has already  been mentioned as a low-carb athlete.

The Bear is always very aggressive, IMO. That's nearly always a bad sign, indicating a lack of solid evidence.

Still, I do wonder about the Eskimoes. It doesn't seem likely that they were unable to lift heavy weights or do continual heavy exercise on their zero-carb diets.

Re all-meat diet :- I heavily disagree with the notion that such a diet is unaffordable. I've actually found that decreasing the amounts of carbs in my diet has correspondingly reduced my appetite as I feel fuller on raw animal foods, with the result that my food-bills have been significantly reduced.

That's great, Tyler (in particular the last one  ;) ;))
I agree with you: if someone's always aggressive it means that there's something wrong/insecure.

Re Eskimos: maybe they can carry on their day activity, but, when it comes to competition, what happens ?
Will do they perform better or worse than somebody else ?

Re Mamo Wolde: I perfectly agree with low carb sport pacticing, but I do disagree when that low goes to zero.
Bye bye

Luigi

Satya

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2008, 10:19:24 pm »
Here's "the Bear"'s reply:
<snip>

3 - You say that you never get muscle soreness, but later you say that if you train hard you get doms. This is a contraddiction. What about a serious athlete who trains hard almost everydays ? I agree that one can train moderately with zero carb. But it's impossible to have big training volume with zero carb (recovery time will be too long)
Quite simple- if you train every day you will become weaker and smaller.  NO 'serious' athlete trains more than two or three days/week.  Your body does NOT grow from exercise, which actually damages it.  Working too heavy or for too long causes enough damage to make you sore, the proper level does not.  You only grow or improve in strength and fitness while resting and recovering from exercise.


Perhaps you should have asked about the soreness directly, as he does not respond to the "contradiction".  He does claim that if you are working out properly, you won't get sore.  This is complete nonsense, and it appears obvious the guy does not workout much.  You must overload your muscles to get a training effect.  If I do a different exercise that I am not accustomed to; or I lift weights for, say, chest, only once a week; I am going to get sore muscles from it.  If I don't, then I am wasting my time by not lifting heavy enough or enough volume.  I get a sore muscles when I work them over and above what they are used to.  That said, muscles will adapt to the workout over time, which is why you must increase the load, frequency, and/or duration of the exercise plan to continue to see gains.

RE sleep:  He is correct that muscles grow during sleep.  However, he is dead wrong that exercise damages muscles in a negative way.  You must damage the muscle through workouts in order for them to grow.  He is incorrect that 2-3 days is enough workout for some athletes, but he may be correct that 6 days a week, over many weeks time, will actually be counterproductive, depending on what the workout consists of:  Is it cycling 6 days a week, or is it lifting, cycling, swimming, etc?  The latter will be better for the body ime.  Many in the running world are now cutting down to 3-4 days a week training and seeing better gains.  Repetitive stress injuries will result from constantly doing the same exercise over and over, every day.  I think cross training to other types of workouts seasonally is very important for overall health and fitness.


Take my advice, don't believe what you hear about diet and biomechanics- it is all rubbish.

If you like meat and love fat, and can eat it rare and without salt, and want to eat the all meat way, and are happy doing that, then go for it.  If not- then stay where you are.

I know it is the right way, but I really have no interest in arguing with anyone who can't accept what I have to say, and trust me, after 50 years eating this regime, there is no question whatsoever about what is real and what is nonsense.  Science?  All lies- told for money.


Spoken like a true wannabe guru.  'Trust me.  Accept that since this seems to work for me, it will work for you.'  IOW, turn off your mind and don't bother thinking or experimenting for yourself.  That was enough for me to hear.  The red flags are flying in my head when I read such things.  No thanks.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 10:22:22 pm by Satya »

Satya

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2008, 10:25:48 pm »
I think 'raw carnivore' sounds better and makes the most sense, even if you eat small amounts of plant matter.

That's cool.  I can agree with that.  My cat eats grass all the time.  He is mostly raw grassfed meat mix, with some commercial stuff mixed in cuz he prefers that, and the ~ twice weekly mouse he kills.

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2008, 10:28:33 pm »
Satya, I agree 110% with you.
Really.

Now I'm sure I made no miscomprehensions on what the Bear wrote me.
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline ezekiel

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2008, 11:13:01 pm »
I do heavy weight lifting every other day,
 
running, walking, martial arts I do every day,



I'm starting "raw carnivore" even though apples and black walnuts are in season. I ate some raspberries this morning, I found them as I was walking to school, next year i am going to eat only native plants, which will limit my plant consumption alot, i still will be only eating plants I can gather myself,

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2008, 12:13:54 am »
I do heavy weight lifting every other day,
 
running, walking, martial arts I do every day,



I'm starting "raw carnivore" even though apples and black walnuts are in season. I ate some raspberries this morning, I found them as I was walking to school, next year i am going to eat only native plants, which will limit my plant consumption alot, i still will be only eating plants I can gather myself,

I believe raw carnivore means only meat and fat from animals. No carbs more than what's muscle and organs.
Means glycogen provided ONLY by neoglucogenesis.


Bye bye

Luigi

Offline ezekiel

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2008, 12:41:56 am »
I believe raw carnivore means only meat and fat from animals. No carbs more than what's muscle and organs.
Means glycogen provided ONLY by neoglucogenesis.



yes i am starting that today, evn though I did eat some raspberries, but im starting, for the winter, in the spring and summer and fall next year I will eat plants, but only native and wilds ones,

so each winter i will go carnivore
but go omnivore in summer, spring, and fall, still at omnivore during warmer months I will be at 95% animal foods

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2008, 01:01:19 am »
Ok, Sully, your test will be a great deal for us.
Bye bye

Luigi