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Offline Fenrir

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New to this and looking for feedback
« on: July 22, 2017, 07:47:14 am »
The first thing i want to say is greetings to all of you and thank you for everything youve made this place to be! Ive been browsing this forum for maybe 2 months now and this is the first post ive created.
For the past 3 years ive been on a health journey which started with little improvements going onto mostly cooked paleo for the whole last year, though i felt a lot better eating cooked paleo i still could tell that something was missing. Ive been dealing with hemorroids that started while i was working at a mexican restaurant and eating a lot of fried foods as well as mounds of nuts when i wasnt working, i stopped eating the fried foods around 10 months ago and i quit that job entirely around 8 months ago but up until around 5 months ago i would still gorge on nuts from the grocery store bins. I know about the huge amounts of rancid omega 6 they likely contained and i could feel how terrible they were for me i would get terrible gas and stomach bloating and my hemorroids just wouldnt heal so i gave up the nuts and for that last 5 months my diet consisted of about a pound of muscle meat, several tablespoons of either butter, coconut oil, or olive oil; and large quantities of organic vegetables of all different varieties, as well as maybe 1-2 fruits each day. But my problem was the hemorroids still wouldnt heal and i just still wasnt abounding with energy like i knew i could be i knew something still wasnt right with what i was doing but i didnt know what. I knew that i needed to have alot of fat in my diet but i didnt feel the fats i was eating were of enough quality to get 70% of my calories from and so i experimented with bringing up the amount of starches i consumed from sweet potatos but that just made matters worse. I actually at this point read about sabertooths story in vice online and also about the adventures of stefansson in the arctic before i found this place and browsed through a good quantity of information you have here.
Starting on june 7th i basically jumped right into the world of raw meat and i havent looked back since, i truly for the first time can eat and feel like im just given incredible amounts of energy. ive been ordering all my meat online its all grass fed pasture raised beef, basically my diet each day now consists of: Black coffee unsweetened upon waking up but otherwise fasting until sometime in between 3-6, at that point i eat around a half a pound of raw beef usually chuck, rump, or shoulder, and about 1/3 a pound of raw beef back fat. After this i usually wait until around 10 at night and i eat another portion of similar quantity of both beef and raw fat then 1-2 hours later i eat more raw fat but this time mixed into a bowl of some microwaved broccoli or kale thats also containing raw garlic, either green onions or regular ones, and raw jalepeno or cayanne from some plants ive grown. I dont know the exact amounts of what i eat because i never actually measure anything but im pretty positive i get at least 95% of my calories from raw beef and fat. I also incorporate organs several days a week switching between liver, heart and pancreas. Ive felt really great doing this but i still have a few concerns and this is why i make this post.
1: all of the meat and fat i eat has been frozen i dont have the room in the fridge to hang my whole months worth of meat as i share the fridge and this is also the way it comes to me, is the meat being frozen entirely detrimental to ones health do i need to seek a farmer nearby and get fresh meat even though it will cost more? If you all think i would see much more improvements in health eating unfrozen then i will find a way to make the logistics work but it would be rather difficult.
2: do i need to have more variety in the kinds of fats i consume is having the foundation of my diet raw muscle and back fat dangerous long term? I have about 15 pounds of suet in my freezer but i literally cant stand the stuff unless i warm it up, its just so waxy and flavorless compared to the back fat thats chewy and creamy and melt in my mouth, but is this because the back fat is more pufa than the suet an is that an issue or no because it should still have a balanced 3-6 ratio?
3: though all my meat is entirely raw i dont like most cruciferous vegetables that way they taste so much better cooked, i know most people here recomend omnivorous over carnivorous but what kinds of vegetables do you eat raw? The only ones i really enjoy raw are cauliflower, onions and carrots, though i also like mushrooms raw, i would be open to eating more fruit but at the same time it seems like sometimes it causes me more digestive issues.

I really love eating this way and i dont plan to go back to eating cooked paleo my primary concern is trying to heal my digestive system and i suppose my colon as of right now, ive contemplated going zero carb but if my problem is simply that the vegetables im eating are cooked not raw ill switch to entirely raw omivore instead and see how it goes. If it helps to know some backround on physcial characteristics im ~150 pounds, 5'10'', 20 years old, male, and very active i workout around 3 days a week with weights and walk 3 miles a day 6 days a week, i dont need to lose any weight and im not really trying to gain any more muscle than i already have i just seek healing and immunity from the ails of the improper human diet.
I apologize in advance for this wall of text or if this wasnt the best place to put this! Hopefully i didnt beat around the bush with unimportant information too much i look forward to hearing back from some of you.

Offline surfsteve

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 08:49:05 am »
Welcome to the forum. I went from 50 to 100 percent raw a few months ago. Since going raw I eat a lot less vegetables and a lot more fruits. Even most of the vegetables I eat like cucumbers and tomatoes are technically fruits. One odd thing since I went raw was I lost my taste for lettuce. I totally didn't expect that. I thought I would miss my stir fry but I never looked back. Most of my diet is meat and since going raw I gave up pork and chicken and only eat beef and fish. I marinade most of my meat in either raw vinegar or lemon juice and as far as I know am the only one on here who does. I used to eat 50 percent organ meats but recently have been consuming 90%. I make lots of ground beef heart jerky and enjoy sun dried tomatoes that I make in my dehydrator. Your diet actually sounds pretty healthy to me. Good to hear you are eating grass fed. I can't afford it unlike most people here but seem pretty healthy in spite of it. Possibly due to my high organ meat consumption.

Offline Fenrir

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 09:31:57 am »
Thanks for the response steve! Im glad to hear it sounds like im doing it right for the most part, thats unfortunate you cant afford grass fed it is alot more expensive even for the cheaper cuts. Im suprised you dont get sick of eating 90% organs in your diet! I think they taste really good on occasion but i couldnt base my diet around them without feeling sick i think. Thats interesting about the fruits it seems like ive read things of that nature around that there more meant to be eaten less toxins than vegetables, but at the same time it seems like the low amount of vegetable toxins is healthy so its confusing. Do you ever ferment fruits or vegetables? 

Online TylerDurden

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 03:33:30 pm »
1) Some RVAFers claim that freezing damages the raw meat by 25% or so and that enzymes are harmed. Others claim that freezing gradually denatures enzymes  over  c.10 weeks of freezing. Others claim that freezing is harmless.

There are some basic facts:- freezing does create ice-crystals which disrupt the cell-membranes, which means that nutrient-loss occurs at a much faster rate once it is thawed. Also, thawed prefrozen meat tends to taste not as great as nonfrozen raw meats. Other than that, I would state that eating raw prefrozen meats is not the end of the world. Freezing does not, after all, create any toxins, whereas cooking definitely does. Bacteria in raw meats lie dormant, not destroyed, when the raw meat is frozen, so they are revived once the meat is thawed.

Also, there is the matter of convenience.Focusing too much on diet leads to dietary orthorexia, and some RVAFers needlessly get afflicted in that way.Besides, we RVAFers generally accept that a rawpalaeo diet only fixes some health-problems. There are many other aspects(mostly but not wholly to do with Palaeolithic-era concepts) such as exercise, posture etc., which also affect health.

If you want the best, you could always get a chill-room where you put your raw meats in every month. Such a room only cools the raw meat down to  between 2 to 4 degrees Celsius, so that the meat is preserved without being frozen. That is what  many grassfed-meat producers do, as chiling the meat very slowly ages the meat, thus tenderising it and improving the taste.However, it's not worth the bother, unless you own your own place/freezer etc., and have the cash.

To last long-term on a RVAF diet, is is better, imo, to have as much variety in your diet as possible. After all, the diet of our Palaeo ancestors was far more varied than nowadays, including things like insects, lizards etc. etc. Then again, we have people like Lex Rooker who have no problems eating just raw suet and pemmican on an endless unchanging basis.

Like you, I hate the taste and texture of raw suet, however grassfed. In addition, even suet from the highest quality source makes me have yellow liquid diarrhea soon after, which I take as a sign that my body does not like or need nutrients from raw suet. I far prefer other sources of raw fat such as raw tongue and raw marrow(from grassfed sources) or even raw brains(not everyone's cup of tea) or raw fat from leg of lamb. Other than raw grassfed  lamb fat, I rather loathe white fat next to muscle-meat and prefer it sort of hidden/submerged such as in raw swordfish etc.


One caveat:- many raw zero-carbers have found, in the long-term, that a 100% RZC diet is difficult to stick to on a permanent basis. In my own, case I really thrive for the 1st 3 weeks or so of going RZC(getting increased concentration/alertness etc.), but then swiftly deteriorate healthwise soon after that point. That said, you may well do fine on it, who knows? Everyone is different. What works for one RVAFer does not necessarily apply to another.

3) RVAFers generally avoid vegetables, whether raw or cooked. Vegetables, even raw ones, usually include lots of antinutrients in them. That is why some RVAFers who overdo their raw-veggie-juice-consumption(more than 1 litre a day) end up with nutritional deficiencies.My general rule is that, since antinutrients are designed to make the plant more difficult to digest and less tasty to plant-eating animals, that I should avoid any raw  vegetables which don't taste great to me. Cooking does reduce the levels of antinutrients in raw vegetables BUT cooking also creates additional heat-derived toxins such as advanced glycation end products among many others, so is not an option.

I  find that fully  soaking raw nuts in water  for 24 hours before consumption reduces the levels of antinutrients, making digestion of said nuts much easier if I eat a lot of them at one time. Incidentally, if you are looking for alternative raw carbs to fruit, consider sundried raw bee pollen(in small amounts per day!) or raw honeycomb(heather, imo, is the best flavour).


“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

Offline Fenrir

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 01:30:01 am »
Im glad to know freezing shouldnt be too detrimental to the benifits of the meat, i would consider investing in my own fridge at some point where i could adjust the temp and hang everything but at this point in time ive got a lot of bills that are going to take up most of my free money so it may be a good while.

I do agree variety is most likely important though i do enjoy beef quite a bit still. I left out that ive been buying wild caught fish about once a week as well ive had raw swordfish, salmon, tuna, octopus, and black drum with swordfish being my favorite. But i worry about eating some other land animals raw still i know its said that its really no cause for concern some of the things such as liver flukes or trichinosis but at the same time i havent pushed the envelope yet. Ive had raw lamb but only from tom thumb which gets its grass fed meat from australia and i dont know how i feel about it traveling so far and being raised in unknowable conditions, i could order pasture raised pork or a variety of different birds duck or turkey or chicken, do you eat white meat of birds or do you mostly favor red meat of goats, lamb, pork and beef?

I will order some bone marrow this next shipment but it seems like its a lot more expensive than the back fat at 6 dollars a pound including bone weight compared too 3 dollars a pound for the pure fat, i have had cooked grain fed marrow and i really liked that but it seemed really hard to scoop out before i cooked it will grass fed marrow be easier to extract without heat? Also do you worry at all about your omega balance? I could get pork jowls for only 2 dollars a pound which ive never had but appear to be mostly fat, but if im following the logic of the 3-6 balance then would it be bad to eat it too often or is that not really an issue when your not oxidizing your pufas cooking them?

What your saying about vegetables is interesting if im not misunderstanding you your saying that overall theyre likely going to be a net loss of nutrtion as opposed to a gain, would you say thats in all amounts or is there a low quantity which may be benificial that can be determined by taste and what about lactofermented vegetables?

On the topic of fruits do you avoid the ones that are highly modernized or shelf ripened such as apples? I do really enjoy plums and cherries i wouldnt mind going back to eating more fruits like i used to and seeing if i feel better with them. But at the same time i feel as though fruits are an addictive food for me and i feel that isnt a good thing, i think i used to be insulin resistant as well and so that partially is what led to me cutting consumption, but at the same time if you listen to ray peat supposedly fruits are the best thing for your thyroid and so im sure theres a balance that is good. Not that im saying i listen to ray peats advice i think alot of what he says is totally crazy and hes just a sugar addicted old man, but at the same time even though i would never try and eat the way he prescribes doesnt mean i dont think there are some gems to be learned from him.

I appreciate you anwsering my questions i respect your opinion quite a bit from the posts of yours ive read! i hope that im not too varied on what im asking that i should be starting a new topic i look forward to hearing back from you whenever your time permits


Offline surfsteve

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 01:55:03 am »
I forgot to mention that I freeze all of my meats. I don't notice any difference. It's probably not as good as fresh but not worth the bother and expense of going to the store and buying fresh. If there's a difference it's not enough for me to tell. No. Fernir. I don't ferment fruits. Many years ago I experimented with making my own alcohol though. I do ferment vegetables though. I am extremely attracted to the vinegar taste they provide and put raw vinegar or fresh lemon juice on most of the foods I eat that aren't fermented.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 03:10:23 am »
Im glad to know freezing shouldnt be too detrimental to the benefits of the meat, i would consider investing in my own fridge at some point where i could adjust the temp and hang everything but at this point in time ive got a lot of bills that are going to take up most of my free money so it may be a good while.
Fair enough. It's not a good idea to focus too much on diet in the way of resources or effort, if one can already get most of what one needs anyway.
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I've had raw lamb but only from tom thumb which gets its grass fed meat from australia and i dont know how i feel about it traveling so far and being raised in unknowable conditions, i could order pasture raised pork or a variety of different birds duck or turkey or chicken, do you eat white meat of birds or do you mostly favor red meat of goats, lamb, pork and beef?
Trichinosis and the like is really only an issue in tropical, undeveloped countries like Vietnam et al. In the West, even the organic farmers routinely give their animals  deworming medicines, so it's a needless worry.As for white meat, I have no problem eating raw birds. I, of course, would far rather eat raw wild mallard duck like I did in the UK, but since there is much less intensive farming in Austria than the UK, I don't find it the end of the world to eat raw turkey meat for example.With regard to red meat, I prefer eating raw wild game muscle-meats  such as moufflon, wild boar, raw wild hare and the like but, here in Austria will eat raw grassfed meats, and even raw organ-meats from standard farmers as organ-meats from wild game are more difficult to get hold of in Austria, and Austria is less focused on intensive-farming than the UK. I usually  refuse to eat farmed fish, however raw or organic it is, though.
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I will order some bone marrow this next shipment but it seems like its a lot more expensive than the back fat at 6 dollars a pound including bone weight compared too 3 dollars a pound for the pure fat, i have had cooked grain fed marrow and i really liked that but it seemed really hard to scoop out before i cooked it will grass fed marrow be easier to extract without heat? Also do you worry at all about your omega balance? I could get pork jowls for only 2 dollars a pound which ive never had but appear to be mostly fat, but if im following the logic of the 3-6 balance then would it be bad to eat it too often or is that not really an issue when your not oxidizing your pufas cooking them?
Funny, here in Europe, raw marrow is dirt-cheap, under 3 euros 50 a kilo, even if from grassfed sources, admittedly, one has to specify that one only wants the bones rich in marrow,  and preferably each bone-part no more than 6 inches long, or they give you marrowless bones meant for dogs. Raw marrow is easy to extract. There are 2 types of raw marrow, depending from which cow-leg the marrow comes from. One type is very soft at room-temperature and easy to scoop out with a knife, just inserta satndard knife  into one end and twist  in a circular  motion to get the marrow out. The other type of marrow is hard and dry as sawdust and I found that sticking an oyster-knife or similiar ultra-hard, pointed knife was what was needed to get that marrow out of the bone.
I generally don't care about cholesterol or omega-3/omega-6 stuff etc.. It's mostly scientific garbage(eg:- acid/alkali theory of food) and I would rather buy high quality raw foods from animals fed on diets their wild counterparts would naturally eat, than work out percentages of nutrients contained in my foods.
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What your saying about vegetables is interesting if im not misunderstanding you your saying that overall they're likely going to be a net loss of nutrition as opposed to a gain, would you say thats in all amounts or is there a low quantity which may be beneficial that can be determined by taste and what about lactofermented vegetables?
Not quite. All I am saying is that you should eat raw vegetables you like the taste of, as these are likely to be lower in antinutrient-levels.The antinutrients in such raw vegetables would be reasonably low and not interfere to any significant extent with the nutrients you get from those raw vegetables. Just don't cook the veg as that  introduces more harmful factors.
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On the topic of fruits do you avoid the ones that are highly modernized or shelf ripened such as apples? I do really enjoy plums and cherries i wouldnt mind going back to eating more fruits like i used to and seeing if i feel better with them. But at the same time i feel as though fruits are an addictive food for me and i feel that isnt a good thing, i think i used to be insulin resistant as well and so that partially is what led to me cutting consumption, but at the same time if you listen to ray peat supposedly fruits are the best thing for your thyroid and so im sure theres a balance that is good. Not that im saying i listen to ray peats advice i think alot of what he says is totally crazy and hes just a sugar addicted old man, but at the same time even though i would never try and eat the way he prescribes doesnt mean i dont think there are some gems to be learned from him.
I've read RP's writings and, quite frankly, he is so way out he's absurd.Anyway, I always say that, to a certain extent, the best guru for any one person is in fact  that very person. What I did, when I first started, was to read the writings of as many gurus and ordinary practitioners of the diets those gurus promoted, and would  compare their accounts with my own personal experiences re health etc.




“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

Offline Fenrir

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 12:01:08 pm »
Thank you guys for the feedback, ill see about trying some more land meats for some variety i believe you that parasites arent really a concern. I would like to try more wild game im sure it is of superior quality, out of curiosity would you still eat a suburban wild animal? I live nearby a stream and there are actually a lot of ducks which live there and i doubt it would be ultimately too hard to catch one, but part of the reason it wouldnt be so hard is because ive seen a lady feeding them before and im sure she was just feeding them bread so that might be a concern? as well as that they live in a stream probably 50% composed of road runnoff. There are alot of plants including wild carrots that grow around it but i dont know about the actual health of the ecosystem its probably not the greatest as far as it goes.

So the last two days i havent eaten any cooked foods at all, i went to the store and got cherries, a plum, a kiwi, green onions, carrots, an avacado and shiitake mushrooms all organic except for the mushrooms. Ive stuck to relatively low amounts of fruits each day yesterday i had the plum and avacado and maybe 6 cherries and then today i had a few blueberries at work along with 8 cherries, everything else has been raw beef and fat but this morning i had some heart too and im about to have wild black drum for dinner. I still dont know quite how i feel about the fruits i got some minor heartburn after the blueberries even though it was only about 2 ounces, but they also werent organic so it could stem from that. Ill probably stick with it for 5 days to a week and see how im feeling after that i may just go zero carb if its not working out or i may just rely on the carrots as i know they do me fine. Would you say that if i enjoy the taste of fermented vegetables that are raw than the fermentation has reduced the anitnutrients or is it just because the tanginess covers the bitter? I made lactofermented broccoli stems with leeks a cayanne pepper and some garlic last week and really enjoyed that.

Its good to hear its likely not something to be concerned about as far as the omega 3-6 ratio of foods when eating grassfed/wild meats of any kind i will let go of concerning myself too overly with it, but i probably will continue eating wild caught fish once a week or more just to be on the safe side sense its an enjoyable thing to do anyways and then theres no way to really go wrong with it. I also though have to say i wont start eating nuts again just because how badly they treated me in the past, im sure fresh nuts in moderation can be a healthy thing but it would seem fresh nuts are very hard to find and from the way they made me feel i think it could be possible i was minorlly allegic or just intolerant of them period. I never actually liked nuts at all as a child i hated them but then i tried them again when cooked paleo and couldnt stop eating them.

I agree ray peat is absurd like when i found out about him around the time i found this place it gave me pause because it flys so far out from everything i was thinking, i feel it was good for making me take a step back and think and i feel some logic is there i look at danny roddy and he seems pretty healthy, but i ate sugar rich foods long enough that i know they are death and ive read on ray peat forum so many people talking about all of the health issues theyre still having that are fixed with a diet like this and i know its not the way, no one would ever be able to live the way he proposes without the modern worlds structures. I will keep looking around at other gurus ideas for the perspective it provides but this place makes perfect sense to me and in just a month i feel like ive improved my health drastically i think this will be my home for the future i foresee.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 06:03:26 pm »
Thank you guys for the feedback, ill see about trying some more land meats for some variety i believe you that parasites arent really a concern. I would like to try more wild game im sure it is of superior quality, out of curiosity would you still eat a suburban wild animal? I live nearby a stream and there are actually a lot of ducks which live there and i doubt it would be ultimately too hard to catch one, but part of the reason it wouldnt be so hard is because ive seen a lady feeding them before and im sure she was just feeding them bread so that might be a concern? as well as that they live in a stream probably 50% composed of road runnoff. There are alot of plants including wild carrots that grow around it but i dont know about the actual health of the ecosystem its probably not the greatest as far as it goes.
All depends on what the animals eat. The only way to make sure is to raise the animals yourself in your own backyard/farm etc. I'm even considering raising insects and plants in my own flat.Those ducks sound awfully ill-fed. Authorities routinely tell passersby near lakes, rivers and wild bathing-areas to NEVER feed ducks/swans any bread as it always results in particularly foul excrement which pollutes the waterways. Apparently, under normal conditions, the natural excrement from birds on normal, natural diets is easily recycled by the reeds and other plants in or near the waterways, so that the bathing-ponds etc. never get fouled up/polluted, but too much feeding of grains ruins this balance in the long run.
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So the last two days i havent eaten any cooked foods at all, i went to the store and got cherries, a plum, a kiwi, green onions, carrots, an avacado and shiitake mushrooms all organic except for the mushrooms. Ive stuck to relatively low amounts of fruits each day yesterday i had the plum and avacado and maybe 6 cherries and then today i had a few blueberries at work along with 8 cherries, everything else has been raw beef and fat but this morning i had some heart too and im about to have wild black drum for dinner. I still dont know quite how i feel about the fruits i got some minor heartburn after the blueberries even though it was only about 2 ounces, but they also werent organic so it could stem from that. Ill probably stick with it for 5 days to a week and see how im feeling after that i may just go zero carb if its not working out or i may just rely on the carrots as i know they do me fine. Would you say that if i enjoy the taste of fermented vegetables that are raw than the fermentation has reduced the anitnutrients or is it just because the tanginess covers the bitter? I made lactofermented broccoli stems with leeks a cayanne pepper and some garlic last week and really enjoyed that.
Fermentation helps predigest raw foods, so helps the human body to avoid wasting lots of energy on digestion. Long-termers often go in for eating "high-meat"(ie aged, raw meats) as that also helps boost concentration:-
https://qz.com/993258/dirt-has-a-microbiome-and-it-may-double-as-an-antidepressant/



Incidentally, the term "organic" often, but not always, means nothing. The term/label has been forcibly watered down as a result of the big agricombines bribing the politicians.As a result, farmers in the UK have assured me of the 100% vegan nature of their chickens' diets, when I know from RVAF-diet lore, that chickens thrive better on raw, unprocessed animal food in their diet such as carrion, insects, worms, rodents etc. So, I would rather buy from an impoverished farmer who could not  afford to convert officially to organic status or be able to pay for constant antibiotics and other medicines for his animals, than to buy from a bug farming company which confines its animals to tiny spaces and feeds them on arbitrary diets of !"organic" soy and other absurdities.
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
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Offline Fenrir

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 12:44:33 pm »
That makes sense that feeding the ducks that way has effects down the line as well. I know that organic meat means nothing ive avoided anything that isnt grass fed or pasture raised i actually just placed an order for this next months meat and i got some more variety, i ordered beef again but also duck, lamb, and some pork not too much of any one thing as i want to see how i like the other meats.

 One thing i was reading i worry about slightly however, i order all my meat from white oak pastures and though their beef and lamb are 100% grass fed it says theyre pork is offered peanuts as supplement and both their pork and poultry is offered grain and soy supplements. This was almost a deal breaker to me in terms of getting variety but it says free choice and so i would hope they arent eating a substantial portion of the feed in their diet, but i should probably work harder to find a local farm for meat other than beef or lamb. Part of what makes it hard is they have better prices than the truly local farms i called before i found them online and i only work at starbucks even from them a substantial amount of my income goes to food.

That was an interesting read its definitely food for thought, im guessing you mean to point out the healthful effects of many strains of bacteria in general in relation to high meat or is the one they mentioned likely to be present in meat as well? I have yet to make the jump to trying high meat im sure i can find details as to how to do it right in previous threads here but one thing i read someone say in passing before is that the bacteria in high meat wouldnt be the ones that are actually useful in eating fresh meat, i dont know how much that makes sense to me but i suppose that the organisms are benificial regardless if so many people claim positive effects from the consumption of it.

Thank you for bearing with me and the various questions i feel more sure of what im doing and i plan to continue on from here truly raw in terms of food with the exception of coffee and espresso, i know i should do something about those factors as well though i dont know if im ready to give it up yet.

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 02:44:17 pm »
RVAFers get an amazing "high" from eating raw, aged meats(ie "high-meat"), all without any negative effects(well some have complained of not being able to sleep if they ate high-meat in the evening due to being so wired, but hardly an issue..). The study re soil bacteria merely shows the mechanism whereby bacteria stimulate the immune-system and boost the serotonin in the brain.

When I was more financially-strapped, I would go in more for intermittent fasting which is actually healthier than normal practices and saves money on food:-

https://authoritynutrition.com/10-health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/

http://www.longevitylive.com/most-popular/10-reasons-to-practice-intermittent-fasting/

IF is quite amusing and politically-incorrect, in that it(to a partial extent) debunks the very notion of eating healthy food in order to lose weight/recover health etc.
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

Offline Pumkin

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 07:49:31 am »
Fenrir- the foods your having now all sound good. I didn't find raw rough veggies healing esp not for hemmoroids. Do you know what lead to the hemmoroids Perhaps if you really want raw veggies, maybe even do this with your steamed veggies, blend them yo make a raw soup.


TYLER  - the bacteria in meats/fish is active again once unthawed, is that a good thing?


Online TylerDurden

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 12:58:45 pm »
Yes, of course. Bacteria are very useful to the body. Indeed, as people get older, their digestive systems tend to suffer. While RVAFers are far less affected in this way than cooked-food-eaters due to not ingesting vast amounts of heat-derived toxins from cooked foods, it  would be advisable for older RVAFers to incorporate more bacteria-rich, aged raw meats into their diet, imo, so that the bacteria can predigest the raw meats.

As regards bacteria, it is all about the environment. If bacteria are in  a toxic environment such as in cooked foods, inevitably their byproducts will also be unhealthy, so avoid aged, cooked foods like the plague. I will admit to once or twice having an issue with raw foods:- once I vomited after eating some aged, raw cod roe and I also once vomited after eating a Tesco-supermarket organic apple. In both cases, I strongly suspect that there were chemicals added to them given  a dodgy aftertaste, and vomiting was my body's way of getting rid of toxins swiftly. So food-poisoning, imo, is not an issue for RVAFers. Perhaps RVAFers who regularly  eat  low-quality raw meats from intensive-farming operations etc. might get issues but not from the bacteria per se, just from the chlorine etc. used in producing such raw meats.
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 08:14:05 pm »
Great! Thanks Tyler! I hadn't thought much about bacteria, most ppl speak of negative bacteria in animal foods (conventional animal foods). Having been treated for parasites long ago (horrific drugs! Rather have gone with herbs after the fact) now I always freeze fish and red meat with the idea in the back of my head that if there's parasites alive in there they won't still be alive after being frozen for a few days.

Offline surfsteve

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 01:22:47 am »
I always freeze my meats too for the exact same reason of killing parasites and preventing bacteria from cultivating. The only bacteria I prefer are the lacto bacteria from fermenting vegetables. The rest I try and avoid. I'm always interested in reading about high meat but have never been tempted to try it. Seems to me that the high feeling others report from eating it probably is a toxin the bacteria produce as an antinutrient in an attempt to avoid being eaten.

Offline Fenrir

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 07:04:06 am »
I will go ahead and try making some high meat in the near future, it does sound rather intriguing and i know the importance of having good gut flora. I can totally see how it would feel really great i already feel awesome after i eat plain raw meat im sure part of that effect is the bacteria and part is just the quality energy from the food itself. It only makes sense that bacteria in balance are good for our health in pre modern circumstances without soap it would be impossible to avoid their presence even if you cooked all your meat you would be eating with hands still covered with the raw meat germs and all other kinds im sure most all of the kinds of bacteria in an environment would end up making a presence in your gut if capable of surviving there.

Pumpkin, though i cant say what continues to cause continuation of the hemorroids exactly i entirely credit there formation to a high consumption of deep fried shrimp and chicken at my old job as well as large quantities of poor quality nuts at the same time. At that period i was also eating oats in the form of plain oats mixed with egg and honey and microwaved, lots of fruits, and i would eat cooked meat and vegetables in olive oil once a day too but i think it was the nuts and fried foods that were just tearing my insides apart, ive always had an addictive personality when it comes to foods and when all the fried food was free to me i had a very hard time resisting even though i knew it was killing me. Whenever i was eating all of these things it was like my stomach would be incredibly uncomfortable most the time and especially when it was time to poop and it would come out as diahrea but it was like i could never wipe it all off i would wipe countless times and after a short period of days i started feeling slight pain and getting blood by the end of wiping, i was eating this way for some months before i finally stopped and then i was still eating amounts of margerine from meats cooked on the grill which didnt make me feel much better. I quit this job and continued eating nuts in some quantity regularly for several more months before starting to only eat macadamia nuts and then none at all. But even without nuts fried foods or any grains at all it seems like i still once a week at least will wipe and get blood, after having been eating raw meat and the microwaved vegetables for 2 months i feel as though it was helping a lot and things have improved but two days ago after eating fruits in slight quantity the day before i actually had a resurgance again, and so i think ill continue to stay away from fruits again and stick to raw meat, raw vegetables that are pleasant raw, and then some fermented ones as well. Im hoping this will be the anwser if i need to i will go zero carb but right now i have carrots, beets, and mushrooms as well as some cabbage im going to ferment with cayane peppers i grew.




Offline Pumkin

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 09:43:42 am »
Fenrir- that's so good - your intune with your body, despite eating addictive foods (fried) for awhile. The great thing is that Once they are out of your system your appetite isn't crying for them anymore. It's all about what you leave out, even cooked food is addictive (not as bad as processed though) for many ppl so if your finding cravings for anythibg there's a clue it's addictive. Fruits, raw veggies in themselves I know for sure aren't addictive. I'm still pretty new to eating animal foods,and I eat raw,  but so far they arent addictive for me. 

I know my bowels had lots more movements after switching over from steamed veggies to raw veggies, that's why I made them into raw blamed soups instead Or juiced them as I do now. I'm not zero carb, but I'm zero fiber the last few days and feel awesome. But it hasn't eliminated BMs. at first, like i was told, One may have the breif period of the runs as your system adjust to the switch in bacteria. I think in time all works itself out.

Offline surfsteve

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2017, 02:27:29 am »
Fenrir: having a good gut bacteria flora is exactly what I'm after but I am afraid that high meat might actually contain bad bacteria. To me it seems the risks are very high and other than getting the high feeling which might actually be due to poisons the bacteria produce in an effort to keep from being eaten similar to magic mushrooms, very few people report any benefits.

Offline surfsteve

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2017, 02:43:52 am »
What also concerns me is that the user Robinlove was posting quite prolifically about trying high meat and after she did all of a sudden dropped off the forum and has yet to be heard from.

Adjenous Vonderplanetz seems to have been the main proponent of high meat and to be honest he didn't look all that healthy to me nor particularly youthful for his age. He very well might not have been around because of high meat but rather in spite of it. His cause of death by falling off a rotten balcony at his own home is not a testament of whit or superior cat like reflexes but more of what I would expect from a drunkard or someone high out of his mind who's advise should be taken with a grain of salt. 

Offline Pumkin

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2017, 04:56:34 am »
Yes SURFSTEVE.
I'm not jumping in high meat either for similar reasons. I'm doing fine without it.


Also I always look at what the guru/health teacher is promoting as a reflection of what occurs on that lifestyle . AV didn't look terribly unhealthy, but I'm female so I tend to look at the woman on any lifestyle.... 🙄💭well that actually practice the lifestyle too. That's the kicker, we all can't promote or even have our own teachings on something BUT who really knows  if we're practicing what we preach.

Offline Fenrir

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Re: New to this and looking for feedback
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2017, 01:11:26 pm »
I like to think im relatively in tune with my body now a days, i definitely would never go back to the way i lived before, cooked paleo was one thing but eating all the SAD things i used to rely on my entire time growing up was one of the most destructive things i never knew i was even doing to myself for the longest time.

Ive kept strong with the raw foods but ive had trouble finding too much variety that sounds appealing, ive just been eating carrots, beets, tomatoes, mushrooms, garlic, ripe home grown peppers and then im making sauerkraut currently too.

 Does anyone think its a coincidence that all the things that are appealing to the palate have higher quantities of sugar as well? Like i feel as though if it werent for the sugar such vegetables would taste just like more bitter ones like the crucifers, i dont know if they really still have less antinutrients as well or not, i know tomatoes supposedly have a lot of lectins which arent good but they taste pretty good raw and have less sugar than fruits. I dont necessarily think all sugar is a bad thing like if it were entirely toxic to the human body i cant fathom why it would taste so good to us obviously it isnt all bad, but it would seem that all the cultivated fruits i have access too have much more sugar than they would wild and arent great for my digestion. Im just curious if something more bitter such as kale leaf would necessarily be a bad thing, I did actually have a good time passing myself today so i feel with the roots things may go well but i would like more variety if i can find it.

On the topic of high meat do you guys think the risk is actually that high? Like ive only been sick once in the past year i have a good immune system which im sure improved each day with raw foods i would feel like the worst thing that could come of it would be a purge if your body really didnt want it, that is interesting though that robinlove was trying it and then just dropped off the radar, i would feel like if she had a terrible reaction we would have been the first to hear about it once things cooled down though. Though i do believe that eating rotten meat frequently or in quantity could have negative results to ones health i can see how doing it seldomely could be benificial. Honestly the high its said to produce sounds intrigueing ive actually eatan mushrooms on more than one occasion and it generally results with positive change in my life like a reset button on the consciousness. I read somewhere on here about a person who was new to the raw diet and they ended up having there intestines colonized by some sort of bad bacteria and had health reprecussions causing them to give up on the diet, but people were saying that it probably colonized the fresh meat in her fridge first and it just got bad from there, this has kept me cleaning my fridge once a week or two weeks but even if i ate some high meat and had negative consequence it wouldnt scare me from the diet i know this is the way to go. Im not necessarily jumping to try high meat i havent made any preperations yet but i would give it a chance at least once.