Author Topic: Contacting Sv3rige  (Read 2499 times)

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Offline Qondrar_The_Redeemer

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2018, 02:06:59 pm »
Ok.

But what about the lower limits?

How could we get calcium and phosphorous from organs and meat diet only?
I don't mean to discourage anyone from eating bones, I just personally think it is more natural to eat smaller bones raw than larger ones cooked. Perhaps Derek is on to something, and the extremely large amounts of calcium and phosphorus are useful, I couldn't say. You could also eat lower amount, no need to overeat on bones. Although I am curious just how much is actually absorbed.

The best source of calcium other than bones would be bone marrow. Phosphorus is present in all types of meat (muscle and organs), and shouldn't be a problem.


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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2018, 11:06:38 pm »
I'd love to see the source for the ca. in marrow.  thanks

Offline Qondrar_The_Redeemer

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2018, 11:11:36 pm »
I'd love to see the source for the ca. in marrow.  thanks
Marrow has around 277.3 to 339.7 mg of calcium per 100 grams (in reindeer) according to this:

Level of selected nutrients in meat, liver, tallow and bone marrow from semi-domesticated reindeer (Rangifer t. tarandus L.):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417664/

It shows plenty of other vitamins/minerals/proteins/fats in reindeer  muscle, liver, tallow and bone marrow.

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2018, 12:01:44 am »
good, thanks

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2018, 02:07:08 am »
Regarding bones,

I haven't mentioned my latest addition to the diet here mainly because of the anti cooking nature of the forum, and partly because I've only been experimenting with eating dissolved bone for the last 4 months, and wanted to be sure there were not any negative issues before presenting my findings.

One of the main problems I have noticed while going an a long term primarily raw meat based diet, is in obtaining optimal minerals and electrolytes from food sources. I will work long hours in hot conditions and often sweat intensely, leaving me at times depleted to the point of cramps muscle, joint soreness and also seemingly more prolonged recovery times. This is something I have always experienced and was much worse before going paleo, when I had much more drastic symptoms of mineral deficiencies.

Over the years I have tried to get every bit of minerals and electrolytes possible by drinking blood, eating all the tissues and organs and it still sometimes seems like its not quite enough. The sheep I consume only have so much blood and marrow, and it would be difficult for me to obtain any extra to supplement with. I have also experimented with things like magnesium supplements, Clay and D.E in the past without much success. Dairy seems to help with providing minerals but has other negative effects which makes it not useful in the long term. Eating the occasional eggs, fish, greens nuts and vegetation seems to help add a better overall mineral ballance, but still does not seem quite optimal.

Since going paleo I have been more and more curious of the benefits of eating bones especially after witnessing my dogs devour whole raw bones, and seem to thrive. The problem is humans in general do not have bone crushing teeth and jaws. I have tried chewing the soft bone and extract marrow from the ribs, and will chew connective tissue till my jaw hurts. I crave the taste but just could never figure out a way to make it work...there are industrial granders which would work ideal, but I dont have 3,000 or so odd dollars to invest in an experiment....so I started to devise ways to soften bones in a crock pot.

I would also like to mention that I extremely dislike bone broth, the taste is repulsive and it always sits heavy in my stomach. To get around the taste of cooked meat I first scrap the bones as clean as possible then place them in a crock pot with two cups of apple cider vinegar on low for about 24 hours. Then I strain off all the broth and rinse all the cooked meat from the bones, afterwards I put back the clean bones into the crock pot with spring water and two more cups of vinegar and leave it on warm for about three days.

This way all allows for much of the horrid taste of cooked meat to be discarded leaving a very soft, clean bone which can be eaten easily. I have recently started keeping the temp on low warm and doing a second rinse cycle to get an even cleaner taste and softer consistency. The large joints will turn into a honeycomb of delicious mineral goodness.

I ate a whole lot in the beginning and besides a little constipated at first, there hasn't been any negative issues. While on the positive side I have noticed much less cramping and soreness, shorter recovery time, and more overall strength and endurance. I usually will snack on bones throughout the day now, eating a couple of bites here and there shortly before meals or as a late night snack before bed.
 

 
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Offline Qondrar_The_Redeemer

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2018, 03:49:36 am »
Very interesting. Do you eat any other animals than sheep? You could get more blood and marrow from larger animals, along with any other parts of the animal (organs, muscle, whatever).
And if you do only eat sheep, any reason why you prefer sheep over other animals?

Also, in regards to bones, how much do you eat?

Offline Dingeman

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2018, 04:54:21 am »
You're saying you couldn't get enough minerals from fish?
What about oysters/mussels? Oysters especially are so salty to me, it would be hard to not get enough minerals from them. They are traditionally eaten raw as well..

Offline Qondrar_The_Redeemer

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2018, 05:51:23 am »
You're saying you couldn't get enough minerals from fish?
What about oysters/mussels? Oysters especially are so salty to me, it would be hard to not get enough minerals from them. They are traditionally eaten raw as well..
Looking at it from a mineral perspective, oysters tend to be very high (sometimes the highest, depending on the species) in zinc, high in copper and selenium. Potassium, magnesium and sodium tends to be similar between fish, oysters and land animals. Although it could be the salt water you are tasting, in which case you would be getting some additional minerals, albeit not much. Mostly some extra sodium.
 
With all the organs he eats, he should easily be getting all the selenium, manganese, copper, zinc, phosphorus, iron and calcium. The only ones (and only if he is not consuming a large enough volume of food) which in general would be below recommended daily intake would be magnesium, potassium and sodium. Blood has a pretty high potassium and sodium content, although it is not as high in magnesium. On paper he should be getting everything. It's also very bioavailable.

But there's probably more to it than just paper values of what you should be getting. And looking at it, he should mostly be getting calcium and phosphorus from bones.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2018, 11:15:16 am »
Very interesting. Do you eat any other animals than sheep? You could get more blood and marrow from larger animals, along with any other parts of the animal (organs, muscle, whatever).
And if you do only eat sheep, any reason why you prefer sheep over other animals?

Also, in regards to bones, how much do you eat?

I typically prefer sheep for a number of reasons.....Most cows in my area are grazed in less than optimal conditions and do not taste good to me...plus bovine fats seem to be much more waxy in consistency than sheep fat which is much more creamy and easier to digest in the copious amounts I consume. Even if it was possible to source good quality organs, marrow and blood from animals I do not butcher, it would be difficult to afford paying market price for all those extras in the long term.

I usually eat only a few ounces of bones a day.. a couple of ribs, half a scapula, or a big knuckle joint...the amount varies depending on craving and how much I have to pick from.

You're saying you couldn't get enough minerals from fish?
What about oysters/mussels? Oysters especially are so salty to me, it would be hard to not get enough minerals from them. They are traditionally eaten raw as well..

I experimented with trying to add larger amounts of seafood for minerals, a couple years back after I got a hair test which showed I was low in magnesium calcium and selenium. Some experts claim that hair analisis is not accurate, the efficacy of such testing is a separate topic of debate but from my experience they can give an indication if there are mineral imbalances or deficiencies....though it is still uncertain what levels are optimal for any particular individual.

For a couple of months I ate lots of oysters, fish, crab, scallops...It was very expensive and after some time I didn't get any really positive effect, and actually started noticing weird symptoms like headache, cloudy thinking and muscle twitching...I went back for an other hair test and it showed that my mineral levels were improved, but my mercury level was also way up, where it had been undetectable from before. After that I quit eating most seafood, and the symptoms went away...I haven't gone back for any more testing yet....might give it a couple more months of supplementing with bones just to see where the levels are.

Looking at it from a mineral perspective, oysters tend to be very high (sometimes the highest, depending on the species) in zinc, high in copper and selenium. Potassium, magnesium and sodium tends to be similar between fish, oysters and land animals. Although it could be the salt water you are tasting, in which case you would be getting some additional minerals, albeit not much. Mostly some extra sodium.
 
With all the organs he eats, he should easily be getting all the selenium, manganese, copper, zinc, phosphorus, iron and calcium. The only ones (and only if he is not consuming a large enough volume of food) which in general would be below recommended daily intake would be magnesium, potassium and sodium. Blood has a pretty high potassium and sodium content, although it is not as high in magnesium. On paper he should be getting everything. It's also very bioavailable.

But there's probably more to it than just paper values of what you should be getting. And looking at it, he should mostly be getting calcium and phosphorus from bones.


We are all in uncharted territory when trying to quantify optimal mineral consumption ratios, Its nearly impossible to scientifically analyze ones day to day needs and prescribe a given protocol. Ive given up all hope in nutritional science to show me the way and been running on instinct for so long that following my cravings have become second nature. When I am in need of lacking nutrients I can feel it...Its not anything like the extreme malnourishment of my vegetarian days....for the most part I am very well nourished and any blood test profile would likely be well within the 'normative', but every now and then there is a feeling that if only I had an extra something or other then everything would be prime. Even alpha wolfs who have access to all the meat they can eat will still knaw on a bone every now and then, which points to there being something in the actual bone tissue they crave from time to time.
 
I have also noticed a dramatic increase in the flexibility of my joints and tendons since beginning to eat bones. I feel much more loose and limber and am progressing much better when I take my weekly flexibility class.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2018, 07:49:10 pm »
I typically prefer sheep for a number of reasons.....
For a moment there, I had a huge grin on my face!! I think the preferred term of usage is either "lamb" or "mutton"! Never mind...
"If it is right for me, it is right. It is possible that it is wrong for others: let them take care of themselves"
"Whoso is full of sacred (religious, moral, humane) love loves only the spook, the "true man," and persecutes with dull mercilessness the individual, the real man." Max Stirner

Offline RogueFarmer

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2018, 09:18:55 pm »
As you will probably recall, wolves eat a large percentage of their diet (perhaps 60-70% and sometimes more) in mice, which they eat whole. In the past my dogs seem to have really enjoy eating desiccated, rotten, sun dried fish that would show up along the river...

Offline jibrael

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Re: Contacting Sv3rige
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2018, 07:19:20 pm »
I would also like to mention that I extremely dislike bone broth, the taste is repulsive and it always sits heavy in my stomach. To get around the taste of cooked meat I first scrap the bones as clean as possible then place them in a crock pot with two cups of apple cider vinegar on low for about 24 hours. Then I strain off all the broth and rinse all the cooked meat from the bones, afterwards I put back the clean bones into the crock pot with spring water and two more cups of vinegar and leave it on warm for about three days.

This way all allows for much of the horrid taste of cooked meat to be discarded leaving a very soft, clean bone which can be eaten easily. I have recently started keeping the temp on low warm and doing a second rinse cycle to get an even cleaner taste and softer consistency. The large joints will turn into a honeycomb of delicious mineral goodness.

Derek, sometimes I feel I am little bit duffer.

May I ask you why you use "vinegar" if you discard the broth and don't drink it?

My understanding is this that people use vinegar so that the calcium comes out of the bone and lands into the broth, so that people can get it from the broth and they don't have to chew the bones for the calcium.

But in your case, you discard the broth and eat the bones. Then would it not be better to not to use the vinegar, so that the calcium stays in the bones when you eat them?