Author Topic: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?  (Read 28630 times)

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Offline Iguana

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2015, 06:22:00 am »
... it may be better tolerated and help one to be able to better adapt to raw dairy.

You're obviously talking about becoming accustomed because an adaptation, when and if possible, generally needs several thousand generations, perhaps a few millions years - which is a short duration in regard of evolution time scale!
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2015, 10:37:51 am »
Not necessarily, accustomation and adaptation can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. In order to become accustom to something in ones own short lifetime, it often helps if one has descended from a genetic line of organisms that were once adapted to similar conditions.

For generations my ancestors ate high carb, cooked Neolithic foods, yet because my more distant ancestors were adapted to the paleo diet and lifestyle, the residual latent genetics enabled me to become both accustomed to and adapted to a completely different lifestyle from what I lived my entire lifetime previous, in an astonishingly short time frame.

As for colostrum, being a breast fed baby, I must of received colostrum as a first food, and although cow colostrum isn't Identical to breast milk it may be something that one could become accustomed to.... given there is a mammalian prerequisite of evolutionary adaptation. The prebiotic nutrients and immune stimulation proteins in pure colostrum, without the large amounts of milk sugar and post colostrum proteins and fats, may indeed be beneficial in some way even in people who cannot tolerate other forms of dairy. Taking four teaspoons of a pure quality low temp dried colostrum powder a day may not exactly paleo, but so far it seems to be doing me just fine, and I have had none of the negative reactions which I get from raw whole milk.

This will take some more time to see if my experiment with colostrum will prove of long term benefit to me personally, I felt fine without it, and may just be falling under the surthrivalist propaganda that colostrum could help me reach the next level of vitality. I wouldn't recommend it as being paleo, and  people who have issues with dairy should use their own judgment, but for people who are already gung-ho pro dairy, it may be something they would like to try.

Moderation is key and 4 tablespoons a day seems like a reasonable experimental dose, and if ever I feel like there is an issue with it I will stop its use  and post a report here.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 10:47:54 am by sabertooth »
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2015, 04:49:26 pm »
Moderation is key and 4 tablespoons a day seems like a reasonable experimental dose, and if ever I feel like there is an issue with it I will stop its use  and post a report here.
Yes, but "cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response.":)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2015, 10:25:10 pm »
I don't understand why people on an already good, nutrient rich diet would absolutely want to add a new component that's potentially harmful, and brings nothing good to their current state of health.

Guess they miss momma's milk  ;)

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2015, 09:10:14 am »
Iguana I understand you stance and the ideology you base your reasoning upon, and will not deny the legitimacy of your concerns, But you must also realize that I am a highly in intuitive being and that have honed my own instinctive nutritional approach over the last few years. Something is telling me to give this a try, and although I am not denying there may be some delayed negative reaction, its not likely to be anything that I wont be able to recognize and correct in due time with due diligence.... AS I have had to do countless other times with countless other foods on my own path to health and vitality. 

I don't understand why people on an already good, nutrient rich diet would absolutely want to add a new component that's potentially harmful, and brings nothing good to their current state of health.

Guess they miss momma's milk  ;)

Its true I miss my nursing days, the mother of my children use to let me nurse and relieve her of her excess supply, but its been a while since I have been able to get some raw human milk.

It is unknown whether or not colostrum has anything to offer me as far as health and vitality. My primary reasoning may be egoist and a little irrational, but I think that colostrum may be able to help me build a little muscle mass and help me recover from long hard days of working and sweating under the sun. I have a hunch that it could be used responsibly as a mild androgenic steroid and workout recovery aid like supplement that is much safer and more paleo friendly than all those highly processed artificial weight gain formulas on the market.

I have consumed a 6.5 ounce canister over about a ten day period, and have a kilo on the way and will continue the experiment so long as I feel as well and strong as I do today, after working 12 hours building a stone path in my garden.

This next few weeks I am going to complete my greenhouse/ raised bed project, and build a sun room, on top of working part time as a handy man and keeping a house hold with two women and five children.... I need every advantage I can get in order to maintain myself and thrive under the circumstances and responsibilities I have taken on and if colostrum can provide a slight edge in the game of surthrival then I am willing to give it a try.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 11:41:30 am by sabertooth »
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2015, 10:36:35 am »
It's gonna be interesting to hear about your experiment as it develops, sabertooth.

I would just be worried about it being dried, which would make it lose some nutrients. Any chance you can find raw fresh colostrum instead?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:00:14 pm by dariorpl »
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2015, 10:59:03 pm »
So I found a source of organic, un-homogenized, full-fat raw grass-fed milk (or at least that's what the seller claims it is).  I don't know what the fat content is, but the seller said nothing has been extracted from it or added to it. Do you know what the fat content for milk straight off the cow would be? I know it would depend on cow breed, but is there an estimate? I've heard numbers anywhere from 3.6 to 4.8%

As promised, and in line with my overfeeding experiments, I'm going to attempt to drink 5 liters (1.25 gallons) in one day, along with eating 1.1kg (2.5lb) of organic raw chicken wings from which I eat the meat, skin, cartilage, marrow and some of the softer parts of the bones. I'll post tomorrow to report the immediate results. I'll probably try more milk again on saturday, and maybe start my first experiments with producing some raw cheese (suggestions are welcomed).
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 11:18:21 pm by dariorpl »
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2015, 11:11:38 pm »
I'm about to finish the first liter (1 quart), and something I can already report is a weird taste in the back of my mouth/throat. It feels like sour milk in there, or cheese, or something. But the milk is fresh. I'm sure it's the natural milk bacteria. In a way I feel like I've never experienced this before, but in another way it feels like I have. Very weird feeling. Maybe a throwback to infancy and breastfeeding which would be the only time when I would have gotten raw milk. It doesn't feel like something is wrong.

Then again, it could be anything. It's been ages since I've had plain milk (pasteurized, non-organic), especially in such large quantities over such a short period of time, I don't think I ever have.
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Offline eveheart

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2015, 07:36:14 am »
Do you know what the fat content for milk straight off the cow would be? I know it would depend on cow breed, but is there an estimate? I've heard numbers anywhere from 3.6 to 4.8%

You can measure the fat in the milk you got. First, weigh all the milk. Then let it separate and weigh the fat that rises to the top. Your estimate is fairly good, but it does vary by season and by breed.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2015, 08:09:03 pm »
That's very interesting eveheart. I will try that.

Anyways, on wednesday I drank the first 2 liters (2 quarts) of milk very fast, and it gave me very intense intestinal growling and diarrhea. I think it was mostly the whey coming out along with something that made some bubbles, stored detergents maybe? I then had the chicken wings, and my digestive system calmed down. A few hours after that I drank another liter more slowly, and had only minor intestinal growling. Then I went to bed as it was night time already, so I couldn't finish the 5 liters.

On thursday (yesterday) I drank the other 2 liters more slowly, and along with some hazel nuts, pecan nuts, sunflower seeds, a few eggs and some honey. I didn't have much problems. At one point it looked like the curds came out, since the whey already had. It was weird to say the least. Later on thursday I had some fruit, and then an all raw tomato-avocado-corn salad which had plenty of hot peppers, garlic, onion and horseradish.

I can't say that I've had any major benefits or detriments from the experiment. I feel mostly the same as other days, except I'm somewhat bloated. (undigested lactose or something?)

I will be trying more dairy experiments soon. I'm getting the tools needed to be able to extract cream from the milk, and to make cheese of various kinds. And I know how to make butter from cream. I probably won't report on the details as much but I'll give the general results as time goes by. I've only been doing this raw diet for 3.5 months, and I was very sick before starting, so I can't say for certain what things are beneficial and which are detrimental at this point.

By the way, on the general theme of the thread, I heard somewhere yesterday that humans are the only species which produces lactase as adults. Is this true? And if so, do you think that means we're supposed (evolved) to be consuming dairy? Or just that we've becomed slightly adapted to it through many generations of consuming it, and/or through a lifetime of consuming it?

I know that you can feed raw milk to other mammals such as cats and they do fine with it, so maybe they also produce lactase if you feed them milk as adults? I've even heard about people feeding dairy to chickens.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 08:18:05 pm by dariorpl »
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2015, 08:30:08 pm »
Only some humans continue to produce lactase into adulthood, and the ability to do so also declines with increasing age.

There is also the issue of casein in  raw milk as well.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2015, 09:07:16 pm »
Well it's been 7 months since I started consuming dairy, and although I had a 2 or 3 month period where I couldn't get much, for the past month or so, as well as for the first 3-4 months or so, I've been having very large amounts.

I can report that so far, it seems that my body responds very well to it.

I just had a minor problem with a particular batch of raw milk that had been frozen... If I drank it straight up, it made me very bloated. However, if that same milk was made into kefir or cheese (or kefir cheese), it didn't. It seems like the freezing process made the lactose less digestible, or something. And then fermenting it got rid of the problem either by eliminating most of the lactose (as kefir does), or perhaps by allowing the lactose to become digestible again, I don't know. I haven't tried the whey leftover from the cheese made from the frozen batch. Maybe I'll do that and see if that also makes me bloated. Or maybe not.

After I made sure to get only fresh milk that was never frozen, by the next batch, I had no problems even if drinking very large quantities of it without any prior fermentation.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 09:43:58 pm by dariorpl »
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Offline Brad462

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2015, 12:00:26 pm »
Is heroin paleo?   -v  Sorry, I am bored. 

Seriously though...Is there a poorman version of the paleo diet?  My health is completely wrecked at this point it seems not even Jesus can save me (I have tried him too).
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2015, 10:23:53 pm »
Is heroin paleo?   -v  Sorry, I am bored. 

Seriously though...Is there a poorman version of the paleo diet?  My health is completely wrecked at this point it seems not even Jesus can save me (I have tried him too).

I'm sorry you're having health issues. Getting a whole or half deer carcass from a hunter, or hunting your own, can be a cheap way to eat.

Offline Brad462

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2015, 10:55:24 am »
Sorry if this is off-topic.  I was hospitalized recently for rapid heartbeat (felt like I was having a stroke or something).  At this point I can barely talk or walk normally but doctors tell me I'm fine.

I'm wondering if I have Multiple Scelorosis or somekind of autoimmune disease.  Sigh...
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Offline eveheart

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2015, 11:06:18 am »
Brad, you might try only-water fasting for 3 days to rule out food sensitivities while you get out of any moldy living quarters for a bit. That vague stuff drives doctors crazy because they don't like to deal with the causes of inflammation. If something is triggering a reaction, you'll very possibly feel fantastic after 3 days on water and clean surroundings.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2015, 12:06:03 pm »
Had you eaten any new foods in the 24 hours before this happened? Had you made any majorish changes to your diet in the weeks before this happened?

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2015, 06:49:22 pm »
Don't feed the troll.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2015, 08:39:37 pm »
He's not trolling. Check his post history.

Offline Brad462

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2015, 11:24:23 pm »
Eveheart:  Fasting would probably be good for me.  My self-control isn't that great but I will see how it goes. 
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Offline Brad462

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2015, 11:27:02 pm »
Don't feed the troll.
I find that highly offensive dear sir.  Maybe I will take a fast from the forum for about a week.  Troll out.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2015, 04:28:25 am »
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Offline Brad462

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2015, 04:37:45 am »
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Offline eveheart

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2015, 08:53:13 am »
Eveheart:  Fasting would probably be good for me.  My self-control isn't that great but I will see how it goes. 

This is a quick fast to zero in on food sensitivities that might be causing your ill feelings. If you feel great during a short fast, start looking for safe vs. irritating foods. If you have a symptom you can zero in on, such as joint aches, hives, or excess mucus, you can use this as a test for offending foods. Also, food sensitivities might point to leaky gut syndrome. I do my own research; by now, I've read so much that I can't even begin to recommend a reading list, but if you pick a symptom and start reading, you'll probably find some useful bits among the mainstream drivel and the quackery.

I have a cooperative doctor. She's not at all helpful in a direct way, but she sees that my "experiments" are improving my health, so I use her for blood tests and stuff like that.

I have several auto-immune diseases that are not actually healed, but I can say that careful diet has me free from pain, brain fog, and flare-ups. I am able to work full-time, be an active grandmother, and maintain strength and capacity with a daily gym routine that most women my age can't do. I think that, at your age, you can probably get great results. It sucks trying to get through the day when you have pain or no energy.

The holidays are coming... make sure you ask for gift cards at your local grassfed butcher or fish market! Feeling better is worth everything.
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Offline thetasig

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Re: Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2015, 03:38:42 am »
I can read there there is a definite controversy going on here with regards to dairy. I tend to rely on the concepts that AV has presented. He used raw dairy foods to help folks heal from any number of health issues (and I witnessed a number of situations over the years). But he also indicated that when one is quite healthy, dairy really isn't helpful/harmful. One thing not mentioned here is the amazing changes in a baby's gut bacteria after having mother's milk. It is the "correct" milk and mix of bacteria suitable for the being that is the baby. After the gut is well-seeded with the bacteria (in addition to those from the birth itself), the baby is normally weaned and goes after more solid and serious growth food. I guess I have to accept clarified or raw butter as one, perhaps, non-paleo component (not really sure when butter started being made, but surely not before the agricultural revolution). Still, AV was a strong proponent of the use of dairy to turn bad health into good. Heck, my avocado isn't Paleo, but it has strong healing qualities. But one should clarify - only raw milk could be considered as being potentially Paleo.