Author Topic: AV diet  (Read 19547 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2015, 01:03:59 am »
The Wai site deliberately pointed out various flaws in dairy which are present in BOTH raw and pasteurised dairy. Excess-calcium-intake is really only possible if one consumes dairy in moderate or higher amounts.

Pottenger studies are flawed and disregard the point that cows' milk, whether raw or pasteurised, is not a natural food for cats.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2015, 01:38:47 am »
The Wai site deliberately pointed out various flaws in dairy which are present in BOTH raw and pasteurised dairy.

Again, in the page you linked there is no mention whatsoever of raw versus pasteurized dairy.

Pottenger studies are flawed and disregard the point that cows' milk, whether raw or pasteurised, is not a natural food for cats.

How are they flawed? They showed that raw milk is a healthy food for cats, and that pasteurized milk is harmful.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2015, 02:20:25 am »
Again, in the page you linked there is no mention whatsoever of raw versus pasteurized dairy.
*sigh* The WHOLE point made by Wai was that BOTH RAW AND PASTEURISED Dairy were harmful and that the excess calcium wasa  problem, whether in raw dairy or pasteurised dairy.
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How are they flawed? They showed that raw milk is a healthy food for cats, and that pasteurized milk is harmful.
The point is that wild cats in the wild do not consume cows' dairy, however raw. Pottenger's studies are therefore irrelevant.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2015, 02:48:35 am »
*sigh* The WHOLE point made by Wai was that BOTH RAW AND PASTEURISED Dairy were harmful and that the excess calcium wasa  problem, whether in raw dairy or pasteurised dairy.

That is a claim that needs to be substantiated. Meaning just because he says that is the case, is not enough to prove that it is. Especially when his data comes from people who consume pasteurized or otherwise cooked dairy.

The point is that wild cats in the wild do not consume cows' dairy, however raw. Pottenger's studies are therefore irrelevant.

How do you come to such a conclusion?
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2015, 03:06:43 am »
Dariorpl, you got it wrong.

In the raw meat study, one group of cats cats were fed 66% raw meat, 33% raw milk and cod-liver oil, while the other group was fed 66% cooked meat, 33% raw milk, and cod liver oil. The second group is the one that developed all these health problems, despite being fed raw milk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Pottenger,_Jr.

Then, Pottenger did a "raw milk" experiment where he fed one group of cats a diet of 66% pasteurized sweetened etc. milk and 33% raw meat, and the other raw metablized vit D (which as we know helps counter to an extent the effects of excess phosphate from cow milk, which inhibits calcium absorption in humans) milk and raw meat.

They state that the raw milk Vit.D cats were "healthier" than the pasteurized cats, which makes sens. But it doesn't say they where as healthy as the raw meat cats from the other study, and they didn't experiment with raw meat only vs raw meat + "raw" milk, which would've helped settle the score here.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 03:42:59 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2015, 03:19:42 am »
I don't know if you already heard about this, but GCB explains in his book "Manger Vrai" that he at one point experimented with raw goat milk during the first instincto days. He had bought some goats which he milked himself, so it was the purest form of raw milk. He had already noticed some decline in his health from putting milk back on the menu, especially in the form of extra mucus, runny nose... One day he got a nasty bruise on his arm that got infected, and noticed something: on the days he consumed raw milk, the bruise would heal badly and produce pus, and when it was a milk-free day, it would heal much cleaner and faster. One milk day, pus, no-milk day, clean. After that episode he decided to quit milk, and incidentally his general health improved.

I'd say milk goes somewhere here: cooked grains<cooked veggies and meat<raw milk<raw paleo foods
Maybe another person who got important health issues from drinking raw milk would put it underneath "cooked veggies and meat".

Non-human milk is a survival food, and otherwise, a drug. Unfortunately a very glamorized one. Don't do drugs kids!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 03:37:19 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2015, 03:37:28 am »
That is a claim that needs to be substantiated. Meaning just because he says that is the case, is not enough to prove that it is. Especially when his data comes from people who consume pasteurized or otherwise cooked dairy.
*sigh* The point is that calcium is calcium, regardless of whether it is in the form of raw or pasteurised dairy. Indeed, since the calcium in raw dairy is more easily absorbable by the human body than the calcium in pasteurised dairy, that therefore the issue of excess calcium in raw dairy is a far more important matter.
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How do you come to such a conclusion?
Obviously, cats in the wild do not and have never eaten raw cows' milk, let alone the pasteurised version!
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2015, 03:38:05 am »
JeuneKoq, Dr. Pottenger did many different studies on many different cats.

The "vitamin D" milk is just milk from cows fed irradiated yeast, and those cats in particular did a lot worse than the cats fed regular raw milk. Irradiation destroys nutrients, perhaps moreso than regular cooking.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2015, 03:40:52 am »
JeuneKoq, Dr. Pottenger did many different studies on many different cats.

The "vitamin D" milk is just milk from cows fed irradiated yeast, and those cats in particular did a lot worse than the cats fed regular raw milk. Irradiation destroys nutrients, perhaps moreso than regular cooking.
Could you post a link?

Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2015, 03:42:04 am »
*sigh* The point is that calcium is calcium, regardless of whether it is in the form of raw or pasteurised dairy. Indeed, since the calcium in raw dairy is more easily absorbable by the human body than the calcium in pasteurised dairy, that therefore the issue of excess calcium in raw dairy is a far more important matter.

Again, that is a claim that needs substantiation. I don't think that "calcium is calcium". If that was true, we could get all the calcium we need through a mineral supplement, but that is not the case. Our bodies require the calcium that is naturally present in raw foods and bound to other nutrients.

Obviously, cats in the wild do not and have never eaten raw cows' milk, let alone the pasteurised version!

Why would it matter whether wild cats do or do not eat cow milk? The studies proved that cats were healthy and reversed disease on raw milk, and they were unhealthy and became sick on pasteurized milk. How in the world are these findings invalidated based on what the cats wild diet would be?
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2015, 03:43:02 am »
Could you post a link?

http://www.realmilk.com/health/francis-pottenger-and-the-hazards-of-a-health-fetish/

Quote
The metabolized vitamin D (a synthetic form of the vitamin present in the milk because the cows had been fed irradiated yeast) proved to be so toxic that it overrode the benefits of the otherwise optimal all-raw diet that were proven in the animals fed plain raw milk. Thus one type of milk that was not pasteurized had indeed not provided adequate nutrition.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2015, 03:49:10 am »
Again, that is a claim that needs substantiation. I don't think that "calcium is calcium". If that was true, we could get all the calcium we need through a mineral supplement, but that is not the case. Our bodies require the calcium that is naturally present in raw foods and bound to other nutrients.

Your argument is illogical. The WHOLE point of Wai's argument is that excess calcium is very bad/unhealthy for you, regardless of whether it is raw or not. Since calcium is anyway more absorbable on a raw diet than a cooked one, it is logical to assume that calcium from a raw source such as raw dairy is a whole lot more dangerous to health.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2015, 03:54:13 am »
http://www.realmilk.com/health/francis-pottenger-and-the-hazards-of-a-health-fetish/

The metabolized vitamin D (a synthetic form of the vitamin present in the milk because the cows had been fed irradiated yeast) proved to be so toxic that it overrode the benefits of the otherwise optimal all-raw diet that were proven in the animals fed plain raw milk. Thus one type of milk that was not pasteurized had indeed not provided adequate nutrition.
Understood. Still, a shame he didn't study raw meat only vs. raw meat and raw milk.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2015, 04:02:15 am »
Your argument is illogical. The WHOLE point of Wai's argument is that excess calcium is very bad/unhealthy for you, regardless of whether it is raw or not. Since calcium is anyway more absorbable on a raw diet than a cooked one, it is logical to assume that calcium from a raw source such as raw dairy is a whole lot more dangerous to health.

Well I believe that calcium in raw foods is never bad for you, but calcium in cooked foods or in mineral supplements is bad for you.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2015, 04:03:40 am »
Understood. Still, a shame he didn't study raw meat only vs. raw meat and raw milk.

Yes. Although we know what the results would've been. The raw meat only group would far outperform the raw milk only group, which would slowly waste away.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2015, 04:04:33 am »
The real shame is that none of these kind of studies seem to be happening anymore.... gone are the days when the university labs were manned by free thinkers not shackled by the corporate money which now controls most research programs of today.

Give me a few million dollars( roughly the same amount now being invested in erectile dysfunction research), a fully equipped lab, about a dozen unindoctrinated employed bright minds, and within a few short years we would have the definitive answers... until then we are simply making educated guesses on many of these issues, based part on experience and part on incomplete studies.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2015, 04:07:28 am »
The real shame is that none of these kind of studies seem to be happening anymore.... gone are the days when the university labs were manned by free thinkers not shackled by the corporate money which now controls most research programs of today.

Give me a few million dollars( roughly the same amount now being invested in erectile dysfunction research), a fully equipped lab, about a dozen unindoctrinated employed bright minds, and within a few short years we would have the definitive answers... until then we are simply making educated guesses on many of these issues, based part on experience and part on incomplete studies.

Indeed...

I think I could do studies for even less money than that. Probably could start with a couple hundred thousand and study mice.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2015, 04:12:29 am »
Yes. Although we know what the results would've been. The raw meat only group would far outperform the raw milk only group, which would slowly waste away.
I wrote raw meat only versus raw milk and raw meat.

I've got two cats at home: I'll feed my favorite one raw meats, and the other one, raw meat and milk  ;)

Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2015, 04:14:46 am »
I wrote raw meat only versus raw milk and raw meat.

Oh, I misread. Yes, it would be interesting. I suppose the 66% raw meat and 33% raw milk group may be the best for the cats that were already sick, or coming from a sick lineage of cats fed cooked diets. And for healthy cats I suppose it may not make much difference from that one to the 100% meat. But I'm only speculating.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2015, 04:17:30 am »
Indeed...

I think I could do studies for even less money than that. Probably could start with a couple hundred thousand and study mice.

Mice aren't humans, and especially cats are not humans. You don't seem to realize that the collective personal experience here trumps any animal study. And the whole "dairy causes ongoing detox" is just idiotic and ignorant.  And that's that.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2015, 04:20:02 am »
Mice aren't humans, and especially cats are not humans.

Since cats have been much less exposed to milk than humans have during their evolutionary history (or design), the fact that they do well with it does indicate that in all likelihood, humans will do even better. While this is not absolute proof, it's a strong indication. Regarding mice, whether we like it or not, they're the chosen animal to study nutrition and drugs regarding their potential effects on humans. So if nothing else, a strong study on mice would be cheap and possibly deal a significant blow to the medical and nutritional establishment.

You don't seem to realize that the collective personal experience here trumps any animal study.

The problem is that it's very hard to quantify collective personal experience, especially because of selection bias.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2015, 04:23:54 am »
How expensive is a lab chimp?

Offline sabertooth

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2015, 04:25:53 am »
Again- a few Million dollars to start a number of comprehensive long term animal and human studies, using the most sophisticated science of our day and we would have a much better idea of whats going on.

Perhaps we could even identify the reasons why some individuals tolerate dairy better than others, and even design test which would be accurate enough to determine if Dairy is harmful on an individual basis. Until that day which may never come, it is up to each individual to use their own common sense and gut feelings to the best of their abilities, to determine what is best, without being arrogant enough to attempt to speak of universality regarding the entire human race
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2015, 04:33:21 am »
If I were in charge of a multi-million dollar study I would experiment first with myself with raw human milk. If money wasn't an issue I am sure I could find about ten of the highest yielding wet nurses of paleo-ish standard to provide ample supply of milk straight from the tit. Oh Yeah!
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: AV diet
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2015, 04:53:05 am »
Since cats have been much less exposed to milk than humans have during their evolutionary history (or design), the fact that they do well with it does indicate that in all likelihood, humans will do even better. While this is not absolute proof, it's a strong indication. Regarding mice, whether we like it or not, they're the chosen animal to study nutrition and drugs regarding their potential effects on humans. So if nothing else, a strong study on mice would be cheap and possibly deal a significant blow to the medical and nutritional establishment.

The problem is that it's very hard to quantify collective personal experience, especially because of selection bias.

Selection bias? Selection bias is when people get banned from Primal Diet forums for posting negative things about raw dairy.