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Messages - Bookworm

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1
Welcoming Committee / Re: Hello from Portugal
« on: July 08, 2018, 08:12:49 am »
Desculpe mas esqueci de falar da ilha da Madeira no Atlantico. Si ainda nao foi là, e IMPERATIVO  que voce và.
Là tem frutas desconhecidas no Portugal y otros tambem bem mais gostosos do que no continente.

Aos Acores nunca fui.

Até ja. 

2
Welcoming Committee / Re: Hello from Portugal
« on: July 08, 2018, 07:41:58 am »
Dear François 

You did not answer my question !

Why shouldn't I be interested in GCB fate and projects, given my innumerable postings on the subject on a number of internet fora, as you kindly recall  ?

Mind you, I probably wouldn't have asked about GCB 's project ,  if it wasn't for Portugal. I used to live in Lisbon as an expatriate at the time I first heard about the possibility of eating by instinct. So the news of  GCB's newly proclaimed ( ?) interest  in Portugal  is,  to me,  a joyful and  double return to the past. 

Don't keep me waiting too long  for the answer to my question.....

PS  : too kind of you to have "unbanned" me  from participating in this long-forgotten french forum :)  . I'm busy with business matters right now.  So it might take a bit of time before I can reply to my favorite master plagiarist,  purloining in the gardens of edenic thought  ( that's a good one. I  have to remember it  ! ) 


 


3
Welcoming Committee / Re: Hello from Portugal
« on: July 06, 2018, 08:54:24 am »
Hi Iguana

I received a strange  circular mail the other day from GCB stating he was in Portugal to take care of a new "pro-genetic agroforestry project"  in this country.

I can't  imagine Burger coming to Portugal without you being  in the know.   

Could you let us know some details of this most interesting project ?

Cheers

4
I'm always surprised to hear that this idea continues to be discussed in anglo-saxon anthropological circles.

Don't expect this kind of information to appear in french science journals or common press.  Even reluctantly.

In France  polygenism (the idea that  humanity could come from several "stocks"  as opposed to monogenism ) is an absolute scientific taboo  ( bordering on holocaust revisionism in terms of political well pensance). If you would make a poll in french streets  asking people " do you know that there are alternative theories to the "Out of Africa" hypothesis ?" , you would get  99,99 % "NO". 

Reason for this ideological  histeria lays in the history of anthropology : those who defended the polygenist hypotheses (in France at least , don't know about England) were downright racists. They did not want european population to descend from african stock. 

Even though the link between polygenism and racism refers to  ancient science , the matter is still not debatable in France one or two centuries later. This and some other curiosities in the history of anthropology  clearly shows how scientific debates can  be annihilated by cultural history.  Obviously the same applies to the lack of debate on the matter of food instinct. 

 

5
Since those  scientists responsible for the study do not seem to eat durians, they only refer to fart gases, which do contain hydrogen sulfide as well...

This is a University of Exeter  study so you'll probably be able to find the reference in english

Here is the french link to the study

https://sixactualites.fr/actualites/respirer-pets-serait-benefique-sante-grace-sulfure-dhydrogene/39320/

The much intriguing title in french goes "Smelling farts could be beneficial for your health"





6
Science / Raw food contains excessive lead levels in indian cities
« on: October 24, 2017, 03:37:58 am »
Toxic lead found in raw food items in Kolkata ( Calcutta )

Findings regarding lead concentration in street dust and street markets  are worrisome

http://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/toxic-lead-found-in-raw-food-items-in-kolkata/111087





7
A discovery of an true instinctive raw eater of direct  human ascent.

Discovered in a national park by the India/ Nepal border,  two months ago but the news has only come out recently.  When she was captured, the girl did not know how to speak and ate directly on the ground, without using her hands.

Photos and details by typing "Mowgli girl" on Google or Youtube.

There are reports that her body shows "large wounds", apparently  healed without any medical help. If anyone can find her  medical report, it will be interesting . In any case, photos show that the girl lacked the king of inter-individual grooming which "social monkeys" normally perform. Or maybe the tribe in which she was raised did not know how to groom a human......   

8
Regarding Tyler's "Are our aversions representative of a healthy instinctive response or have we become so perverted by the artifice of life encapsulated within a technological bubble, that the instinctive sensibilities no longer function correctly?"

There are two kinds of aversions : instinctive or physiological, and psychological.
My instinctive / physiological aversions have been profoundly  modified under instinctive diet. Some aversions took much longer than others to disappear. At the beginning I could not stand the smell of mangoes. Smelled exactly like pure turpentine to me. Not  "disgusting" per se , but such a strong smell that I would avoid mangos at all cost. Needless to say,  after a year or so of detox,  I loved mangos.
Physiological aversions are mostly the reflection of one's healthy /unhealthy intestinal flora. 
One of the major problem facing todays dieteticians and on which you may find quite a lot of science papers : many  people who eat junk foods do have aversions for healthy foods, precisely because their intestinal flora is heavily damaged ....

Here is the famous quote from Rousseau's Emile  where the philosopher stands for our food instinct  "Nous mourrions affamés ou empoisonnés s'il fallait attendre pour choisir des nourritures que l'expérience nous eût appris à les connaitre ou à les choisir"

Obviously physicians, including the greatest hygienists like Shelton in the US, or Carton in France, took Rousseau to task for this idea.
Carton , a right wing christian traditionalist  wrote in reply that "le bon plaisir du palais ne peut décréter exactement ce qui convient à l'estomac" , a bit hard to swallow from one of the rare physicians  & natural hygienist  who was a staunch advocate of a raw food diet (albeit not 100% raw).
As far as I can reckon, Carton's position remains the "official" position of right-wing-christian-physicians-and-medical-skeptics  in France,  until now.

It's worth noting that at the time when  Carton was opposing Rousseau medical naturism (in the 1930-1940's), the leader of left wing christian intellectuals in France, Emmanuel Mounier, founder of so called "personalist philosophy" in France  seems to have shared Rousseau's opinion on food instinct ( by the way,  Karol Wojtyla was definitely a personalist philosopher - he wrote on philosophy,  and taught philosophy. This is just to let you know, in case you wouldn't have heard about it,  that personalism is one of the highly rated ideological movement in today's  christian world. We are not talking about a philosophical sect here ...).
 
The more I delve into the extraordinary richness of  christian philosophy (at least outside France ) the more I think the story  of food instinct is  not a matter for historians of science , but rather a matter for historians of philosophy . 

Please take my word for it : Burger's ironic comment on Saint Thomas in his book, is the key which opens the door to the christian sources on the philosophy of food instinct. It took me a while to understand this. But it is  becoming more and more clear : we are talking about a non thomasian epistemology. 


   






9
PLease read article inserted  below which was published three days ago in the NYTIMES .


This discovery would seem to call  for a  revision of the instinctive theory.

According to the study below , malnourished children can sometimes be killed  by following their own instinctively driven behaviour

This discovery seems to fly in the face of a theory which until now,  foresaw that instinctive eating, when given full command, would entail a swift cure of malnourishment.

However  the term "unripe" in this  article should ring a bell in our minds : have these unripe fruits been selected  after due approval by the sense of smell ? Or have they been swallowed in a similar way as the toxic berries mentionned by  Rousseau in his famous  " Emile ou de l'éducation" ?

If not , the theory, far from being unvalidated, would remain all the more valid........


One tell-taling  detail : the  account of the story on the french web  which I read first (before searching for the original story in english )  makes no mention of the fact that the fruits were eaten unripe.... which of course,  makes the whole story sound totally crazy ..


NEW DELHI — Three years ago, Dr. Rajesh Yadav, an investigator with the India Epidemic Intelligence Service, moved to the city of Muzaffarpur, the site of one of the country’s most mysterious outbreaks. And he waited.

Every year in mid-May, as temperatures reached scorching heights, parents took children who had been healthy the night before to the hospital. The children awakened with a high-pitch cry in the early morning, many parents said.

Then the youths began having seizures and slipping into comas. In about 40 percent of cases, they died.

Every year in July, with the arrival of monsoon rains, the outbreak ended as suddenly as it began.

Beginning in 1995, investigations variously ascribed the phenomenon to heat stroke; to infections carried by rats, bats or sand flies; or to pesticides used in the region’s ubiquitous lychee orchards. But there were few signposts for investigators.


Instead of occurring in clusters, the illness typically struck only one child in a village, often leaving even siblings unaffected.

A joint investigation by India’s National Center for Disease Control and the India office of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, published in the British medical journal The Lancet Global Health on Tuesday, has identified a surprising culprit: the lychee fruit itself, when eaten on an empty stomach by malnourished children.

In 2015, as a result of the investigation, health officials began urging parents in the area to be sure to feed young children an evening meal and to limit their consumption of lychees (sometimes spelled litchi).

In two seasons, the number of reported cases per year dropped to less than 50 from hundreds.

“It was an unexplained illness for so many years,” said Padmini Srikantiah, a senior epidemiologist with the C.D.C. and the senior author of the paper. “This is kind of emblematic of why we collaborate, to build this kind of systematic approach.”

The Lancet article walks through a two-year medical detective story, as epidemiologists like Dr. Yadav closely examined the lives of hundreds of afflicted children, trying to understand everything they had eaten, drunk and breathed.

“It was a very intense situation, because we witnessed children dying in front of our eyes every day, as soon as they arrived at the hospital,” said Dr. Yadav, who now works with the C.D.C. in Atlanta. Especially difficult were the detailed interviews of parents, many of whom had carried a convulsing or comatose child for hours to get to the hospital.

“They were in a kind of panic,” he said. “Their children were dying, and it was an unknown thing.”


The first clue: There was no evidence the children had infections.

For 20 years, clinicians were unable to determine if the disease, which led to acute brain swelling known as encephalopathy, was caused by an infection — the immediate assumption in many outbreaks here.

Investigators pored over records from the previous year’s outbreak and were struck by the fact that many of the sick children did not have a fever. Analysis of spinal fluid samples overwhelmingly showed that the affected children did not have elevated counts of white blood cells, a sign the body is fighting infection.



The second clue: Most of the victims had very low blood sugar levels.

Having collected biological samples from more than 300 children, the researchers were able to scan a large number of markers — including some they hadn’t suspected.

Glucose had never been a particular concern for investigators. But some of the affected children had strikingly low levels, and those with low blood glucose were twice as likely to die, Dr. Srikantiah said.

“It seemed to be a little signal,” she continued. “One of the things we heard multiple times from the children’s mothers was that they didn’t really eat dinner properly.”

The third clue: Outbreaks had been associated with the ackee fruit.

It was in the fall of 2013, during a conference call with colleagues in Atlanta, that someone mentioned “Jamaican vomiting sickness,” an outbreak in the West Indies that for many decades caused brain swelling, convulsions and altered mental states in children.

The outbreak turned out to be tied to hypoglycin, a toxin found in the ackee fruit that inhibits the body’s ability to synthesize glucose, leading to acute hypoglycemia, or low blood glucose levels. “It had been going on for a decade, if not a century, before people really figured out what it was,” Dr. Srikantiah said. “Now, the grandmothers and the mothers teach their kids, ‘Don’t eat the unripe ackee fruit.’ ”

By late 2014, laboratory tests confirmed that lychees also contain high levels of hypoglycin, as well as a similar toxin known as methylenecyclopropyl glycine, or MCPG.

This was an answer hiding in plain sight. The Muzaffarpur area, in India’s east, produces about 70 percent of India’s lychee harvest, and around the affected villages, “you really couldn’t go 100 meters without bumping into a lychee orchard,” Dr. Srikantiah said, referring to a distance of 330 feet.

Though orchards were typically guarded by caretakers, children often ate lychees that were unripe or that had fallen to the ground. But because everyone in the region eats them, it was difficult for many to believe that, in isolated cases, it could set off a catastrophic illness.

The fourth clue: Affected children had huge metabolic imbalances.

By early 2015, C.D.C. laboratories had developed a test to measure hypoglycin in urine. They found extraordinary abnormalities in the affected children. “The folks in the genetic labs said ‘We haven’t seen anything like this,’ ” Dr. Srikantiah said. “This was clearly abnormal.”

With that established, the investigators asked participants if they would be comfortable issuing recommendations based on their findings: that young children in the affected areas be encouraged to always eat an evening meal, and that consumption of lychees should be limited.

Everyone agreed. And it was done.



A version of this article appears in print on February 1, 2017, on Page A4 of the New York edition with the headline: Medical Mystery in India Uncovers Unlikely Killer of Malnourished Children.

10
I'm hard to surprise, really I mean (  too much reading , I guess ) .

But this article really got me flabbergasted, realizing that there was just one single company behind all this crap science........

Surely, one of the most interesting article I have read recently .

PLease google " From asbestos to pesticides to pork"  as published on the website of  the NGO "FAIRWARNING.org"

(I'm not allowed to post external links)

This is so  unbelievable. Talking about the "structures of sin" . There you are , man....



11
After checking my information in the US, it  seems that the french journalist either misinterpreted what he read in the american press, or deliberately tried to impress its audience by associating this sectarian group of raw eaters with the Rockefeller family.

 I can confirm however the existence of an active group of non vegetarian raw eaters in the States at the turn of the century  before the word "vitamin" was coined by scientists.

12
Found in a XIX french thesis on naval medicine

"Le médecin du bord devra, toutes les fois qu'il arrivera dans une rade, s'informer si des espèces nuisibles y existent. Dans les iles peu fréquentées, ces précautions sont impossibles. MMs ...... prétendent que , pour reconnaitre si un poisson est vénéneux,  il suffit de se frotter les lèvres avec un morceau du foie : si l'animal est toxique, on y éprouve une vive cuisson  (ndlr : that's old old french for  brulure or  burn ) : elles deviennent enflées et douloureuses. J'ignore si ce procédé est toujours certain........"



13
"no matter how much fruit I eat it still tastes great"

Your words are betraying  the most "classical"  mistake of budding instinctive eaters who did not receive  a proper hands-on introduction to instinctive eating :

the decision of eating / not eating fruits MUST ABSOLUTELY be made by the sense of smell  and  not by tasting.

Reason is :  fruits (and many other edible foods )  will most often taste attractive EVEN WHEN  their smell goes unnoticed




14
Mammoth hunter

When you say " I'm against anything above minimal fruit consumption" , just think about the results of Clara Davis experiments on newly weaned 

Their favorite food was , by decreasing order of importance in total calories  consumed

Fruit
Eggs
Glandular organs
Meat and other animal products
Vegetables and cereals occupying only a minor part. 
There was no industrial sugar or sugary products
As for salt as far as I remember,  sea salt was proposed separately ( never added or mixed with other foodstuffs ).
This was the self selected diet of children raised in Chicago.

So unless you live in the canadian forest, you 'd better reconsider your views on the place of  fruits in human diet

15
You mean "another thing in common with some  catholic prelates ? "  :)


This theologian  is not really what you would call a complete stranger. Even though he is not known to the average educated man/woman , his name is a "household name" in philosophical & theological  circles around the world, and not only in France. 

This prompted me to check in the abundant secondary litterature related to his works  to see  if any second-rank philosopher had ever spotted the  originality of his hygienic standpoint.  But so far I haven't found a single enlightened comment on this matter !
Not a single one. Amazing, given that the paleo idea has been around for quite a bit of time.

Of course if you are not familiar with raw paleo, you may read the whole thing as a mere bunch of desultory and  outdated  remarks. But once you read this piece with "paleo glasses", you cannot help but think that this guy is simply 500 years ahead of his time........

And you start thinking :

"What the hell have all our fucking scientists been doing in the meantime to make so little progress......? Just count the layers of crap which they  have  dumped on this hygienic tradition,   so that no one  dares to take a serious look on the matter !"

To be fair,  on second thought, it  seems  the same can be said of the various christian churches : "what the hell have they done  in the meantime to clarify this all important  matter ?"   

The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind........




16
Why  homeopathy and raw - instinctive  nutrition share  some  pieces of history  :

- both are revolutionary and subversive
- they are based on the invisible world and are compatible with religion and spirituality
-they are radical
-they are egalitarian
-they are empowering
-they make friends with (some ) diseases and releases us from the idea that (some) symptoms are enemies.

They are both pacifist medicine........although there have been some high flying criminals amongst their supporters on both sides....
 -

17
A possible deduction could be this one  :

QUOTE

In America, homeopathy introduced elements of conservatism (my little note   : and of  christian tradition !)  to dominant medical theories, but at the same time engendered bitter sectarian conflict within the ranks of medicine. Indeed, the American Medical Association itself originated from anti-homeopathic sentiments (amongst mainstream physicians ) .

Homeopathic physicians started to trickle into Ohio in the early 1840s, practicing in smaller cities because of their poor reception among “regular” (allopathic) physicians in larger cities. By the 1890s,  twenty percent of physicians in Cleveland called themselves homeopaths.

Among the more well-known local homeopaths were Seth R. Beckwith, with a large Cleveland practice as physician and surgeon to railroads; Benjamin L. Hill, one of the founders of the Western Homeopathic College of Cleveland; and Hamilton Fisk Biggar, nationally known medical advisor and intimate friend of John D. Rockefeller. B. H. Bartlett opened the first homeopathic pharmacy in Cleveland in 1846, at the corner of Superior Ave. and Public Square.

Homeopathy depended upon teaching institutions and hospitals for its survival. In 1850 the Western Homeopathic College of Cleveland, the second such institution in the country, came into being, and in 1856, Seth Beckwith opened the Cleveland Homeopathic Hospital, the first privately owned hospital in Cleveland. These two institutions soon affiliated, and college faculty practiced and taught at the hospital.

Further consolidation of homeopathic resources occurred after 1869, as the rivalry with allopathic physicians grew worse. Within a decade, Cleveland homeopaths built the Huron Road Hospital as a place of their own. It survives today, but without homeopathic affiliation, as Meridia Huron Hospital in East Cleveland. Homeopathic education in Cleveland ended with the closing in 1922 of the Cleveland Pulte College of Homeopathy (by then affiliated with Ohio State University). This soon spelled the end of homeopathy in Ohio

UNQUOTE

The  author probably means "the end of the official status of homeopathy in Ohio medical schools" since Ohio is still a stronghold for the  liberal practive of homeopathy, as it was already  in the XIXth c  due to the absence of big cities and big universities in the state of Ohio.

It might have spelled the end of homeopathy in Ohio, but thankfully, it did not spell the end of the instinctive tradition of human nutrition in the US.  A tradition  which was in no way contradictory to the principles of  homeopathic medicine , as  both tradition  belonged to the hippocratic current within  western medicine .


Dariorpl :

I'm not sure whether the first paragraph of your post should be read first degree or second degree.

But in any case , I tend to agree with the second paragraph of your post.

18
Try to become an historian instead of focusing on your humdrum input.

Here is an easy  clue for your simple mind.

1) what is the  industrial town west of the Alleghenies, which remains closely associated with the history of JD Rockefeller's  fortune

2 ) what is the  industrial town west of the Alleghenies,  where Clara Davis started her experiments on babies instinct for food ? 

Same town !

Which  deduction can you draw  ?




19
Thanks for your interest and additional references.  It seems your articles and mine refer to different periods in the lifetime of the Rockefeller family.

It remains to be seen whether he or other members of his family ever tried to stick to this diet for any reasonable amount of time. That John Davison   did not adhere  to the diet for the rest of his life looks obvious from your press articles. But that certainly does not mean he did not espouse the principles of a "raw paleo diet" (even though the expression did not exist)  at some point in his life.     

To be sure, I'm not interested in the content of anybody's plate. Only interested in the history of the raw paleo diet.   

Since Rockefeller obviously was not a health guru (but certainly looks like he was a real  health buff)  the  BIG question remains :

"Who  did he get his information from ?"

The same question applies to the swiss guru ....
 

20

Extracted from the french press,  back in the early days of the XXth century, prior to the discovery of vitamins !

"Several billionnaires of which John D Rockefeller have adopted a dietary regime which appears to them more hygienical than anything else : they don't eat anything cooked , no bread, no pastries , ni cakes, only raw foods : meat, vegetable, eggs etc.... This new adepts on the RAW have made up a society (??? ) whose members  increase day after day. Their menu is made up of oysters  ( my remarks :  imagine the price of oysters at that time for those who lived far from the coast ) , shellfish, honey, dried beef, salads, cheese, milk, oranges, bananas, apples and nuts, plums  and peaches, macerated wheat, unboiled  barley (??) , raw onions, radishes....They pretend that cooking destroys the nutritive principle of food , by suppressing their cellular life. They add , with the  naïve conviction of the yankee ( typical french condescension !!!  ),  that disease is nothing but the consequence of  a breach in the laws of nature.....blablabla"

John Davison Rockefeller (the founder of the dynasty) died at the respectable age of 98 in 1937 ....

Is this the reason why JD Rockefeller spent so much of his fortune in medical research ? Surely he could afford to get the best advice in the world !

I just find it amazing that at about the same time, JD Rockefeller was creating the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research (soon to become R. University )


21
According to Thucydides "History of the Peloponnesian war"  in Etolie,  a region in central Greece (north of the Peloponnese )  where aurochs and wild  boars used to roam the countryside, there was a ethnic group  called the Eurythanians.

According to the greek historian, these were one of the most powerful and ancient ethne. They spoke an "incomprehensible language" and "ate their meat raw". They were considered  barbarians.

 I was surprised to learn recently  that our modern european  language still bears the stigmatization  of raw meat eaters in ancient Greece

The word "Atrox"  in ancient greek  gave us  the words "atrocious" ( "atroce" in french ) : it literaly means "that which I can not eat" ( a -trophein ) and it was ALSO  synonymous with "raw"

So in ancient Greece a raw meat diet must have been an atrocious diet !
 
The association of "raw meat" with "barbarians"  also exists in Chinese antiquity and language.

Here is what can be found on the subject of "barbarians" as seen in the eyes of the Chinese people (From article "Barbarians" in Wikipedia )

Quote
 Two millennia before the French anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss wrote The Raw and the Cooked, the Chinese differentiated "raw" and "cooked" categories of barbarian peoples who lived in China. The shufan ?? "cooked [food eating] barbarians" are sometimes interpreted as Sinicized, and the shengfan ?? "raw [food eating] barbarians" as not Sinicized.[61] The Liji gives this description.

The people of those five regions – the Middle states, and the [Rong], [Yi] (and other wild tribes around them) – had all their several natures, which they could not be made to alter. The tribes on the east were called [Yi]. They had their hair unbound, and tattooed their bodies. Some of them ate their food without its being cooked with fire. Those on the south were called Man. They tattooed their foreheads, and had their feet turned toward each other. Some of them ate their food without its being cooked with fire. Those on the west were called [Rong]. They had their hair unbound, and wore skins. Some of them did not eat grain-food. Those on the north were called [Di]. They wore skins of animals and birds, and dwelt in caves. Some of them did not eat grain-food.[62]

Dikötter explains the close association between nature and nurture. "The shengfan, literally 'raw barbarians', were considered savage and resisting. The shufan, or 'cooked barbarians', were tame and submissive. The consumption of raw food was regarded as an infallible sign of savagery that affected the physiological state of the barbarian."[63]

Unquote

Unfortunately, this article does not mention the fact that the non-grain eating tradition and the raw meat eating tradition in China are both linked to the history of taoism.
 


22
From a french book published in 1914 by a famous  hygienist

" A new culinary religion was born in England. This is about nothing less than eating everything raw.  Listen carefully. The  protagonists of this new diet - a natural one, if such a thing ever existed - do not simply eat their MEAT raw , but they take, under this form, everything that we eat.
It is well known that raw meat can be easily digested, contrary to cooked meat........"

Unfortunately there is no direct reference to an  english source in this book, but there are a number of indirect references where I might be able to locate the primary source.  I will keep you posted  in case I can find something




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