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Topics - PaleoPhil

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Some scientific research sure to piss off the PC crowd:  ;D

"A positive relationship was observed between the level of social stratification and the probability of observing MHP, supporting the hypergyny hypothesis.


Contrary to the widely held view that MHP is present in all contemporary societies e.g., [20, 22], the anthropological data gathered here show that MHP is likely absent from some societies, especially those that display low levels of stratification. Anthropologists that have explicitly searched for signs of MHP have acknowledged its absence: among the Alorese[,] ... the Yanomamo [and the] Aka...."


Electrical Scalp Device Can Slow Progression of Deadly Brain Tumors
"Novocure’s device has been approved in the United States since 2011, but only to treat recurrent glioblastomas, not newly diagnosed ones. It costs $21,000 a month, and some insurers cover it. So far, Novocure has been providing it free to patients without insurance coverage, according to William F. Doyle, the company’s executive chairman."

Shattering cancer with resonant frequencies: Anthony Holland at TEDxSkidmoreCollege

This doesn't look like it is used on the brain tumor type that Paleodonk's father has, unfortunately, and it is only currently approved for recurrent brain tumors in the US.

Oh, oh! Tyler's gonna hate this one. Bad chimps!  ;D

Chimps Would Cook if Given the Chance, Research Says
JUNE 2, 2015

"At 115 years and nearly three months, Ms. Morano is the oldest person in Europe, the fifth oldest in the world and one of only a handful of people whose lives have straddled three centuries. ...

Ms. Morano has no doubts about how she made it this long: Her elixir for longevity consists of raw eggs, which she has been eating — three per day — since her teens when a doctor recommended them to counter anemia. Assuming she has been true to her word, Ms. Morano would have consumed around 100,000 eggs in her lifetime, give or take a thousand, cholesterol be damned."

General Discussion / Raw Paleo Honey / Honeycomb / Grubcomb
« on: December 27, 2014, 07:38:30 am »
"F. Marlowe and his research group have demonstrated that the Hadza eat huge quantities of honey for months on end - something I've witnessed and participated in as well." - Jeff Leach, Founder of the Human Food Project, 12.23.14,

"In her ethnographic research on honey consumption, Crittenden discovered that human hunters have long targeted bee hives. The artists who painted Altamira cave in what is now Spain some 25,000 years ago, for example, left depictions of bees,  honeycombs, and—most amazing of all, in my opinion—honey collection ladders. And in Zimbabwe, archaeologists recorded a cave depiction of a human smoking out a beehive. San hunters and gatherers in the region told archaeologists that their ancestors had frequented the cave for nearly 10,000 years." - Heather Pringle, The Sweetness of Human Evolution, September 20, 2012,

"Upper Paleolithic rock art from Spain, India, Australia, and southern Africa all illustrate collecting honey. Altamira cave, in Cantabria, Spain, includes depictions of honeycombs, dated approximately 25,000 years ago. The Mesolithic Cueva de la Araña rock shelter, in Valencia Spain, contains depictions of honey collection, bee swarms, and men climbing ladders to get to the bees, at ~10,000 years ago.

Some scholars believe that collecting honey is much earlier than that, since our immediate cousins the primates regularly collect honey on their own. Crittendon has suggested that Lower Paleolithic Oldowan stone tools (2.5 mya) could have been used to split open beehives, and there's no reason that a self-respecting Australopithecine or early Homo could not have done that." - K. Kris Hirst, History of Honey Bees: The Human Management of Apis mellifera,


"hunting with the Hadza meant walking through brush, across savannahs, up hills and down escarpements from 7 am until 2 pm, which was a short day for them. We saw gazelles, wild boars and baboons, but didn’t catch anything. We’d be in the trail of gazelle, zebra, giraffe, ect., but our guides just kept getting sidetracked by honey! I guess its immediate and guaranteed food whereas the animals are much harder to catch." ("Living with the Hadzabe in Tanzania's Yaeda Valley,"

"Foragers in Latin America, Asia, Australia, and Africa include honey and bee larvae as major components of their diet. The Hadza hunter-gatherers of Tanzania, the population with whom I work, even list honey as their number one preferred food item!" - Dr. Elizabeth Gray,

From "Sex Differences in Food Preferences of Hadza Hunter-Gatherers" (2009. 7(4): 601-616,
> “The most highly prized components of the Aboriginal hunter-gatherer diet were the relatively few energy-dense foods: depot fat, organ meats, fatty insects and honey” (O’Dea, Jewell, Whiten, Altmann, Strickland, and Oftedal, 1991, p. 238)
> Honey is the most energy dense food in nature (Skinner, 1991), and is highly prized by the Hadza. Honey combs often contain small amounts of bee larvae, which the Hadza consume along with the comb.
> Both males and females ranked honey first [in terms of preference]...
> ethnographers often claim that meat is the most preferred food among foragers (including the Hadza) (Bunn, 2001), yet our empirical data on individual preferences demonstrates that honey is more preferred than meat among the Hadza.


"The story of Beowulf includes a Mead-Hall called Heorot that was so big and had so much attendant laughter that the monster Grendel broke in and slaughtered the noisemakers."

"This Estland [Estonia] is very large and has many fortified settlements, and in each of these there is a king. There is a great deal of honey and fishing." - Wulfstan, Two Voyagers at the court of King Alfred, trans. by Christine E. Fell (York, 1984).


Gurung honey hunter of Nepal with a load of honeycomb.

Raji nomad of Nepal gathering honeycomb.

Of course, we cannot assume with certainty that just because our Paleo-ancestors and other peoples ate a food that we can eat it without ill effects today. That would be blind Paleo re-enactment, which I reject. The evidence we have about the diets of our ancestors are clues, rough templates, starting points, rather than detailed prescriptions for optimal diets today.

Jeff Leach reported in a presentation I attended that the Hadza he shared honey feasts with did not suffer any signs of diabetes. He said most of them did clean their teeth often with the twigs of certain trees.

I have seen multiple reports from researchers in the field that obtaining honey from small trees normally requires no more expenditure of calories than hunting game. When the trees are not huge, my guess is that the calorie expenditure is actually less. Thus, it's no surprise that honey provides the highest net energy return of any food in the wild.

"Honey is the most energy dense food in nature. It is therefore notsurprising that, whereitexists, honey isan important food for almost all hunter-gatherers. Here we describe and analyze widespread honeycollecting among foragers and show that where it is absent, in arctic and subarctic habitats, honey beesare also rare to absent."

As Sabertooth perceptively noted: "Hunter-gather paleolithic man in [his] prime must have had a [superb] enzymatic capacity to devour and metabolize large portions of honey intermittently." And as Jeff Leach noted above, "intermittently" can mean nearly ever day for months at a time in season during plentiful years. For a HG to eat his fill, in season, of raw honeycomb and grubcomb, instead of just a smidgeon or two, would be quite "Instincto/Instinctive."

Off Topic / More evidence of interbreeding with Neanderthals
« on: October 23, 2014, 09:30:51 am »
"Scientists have long suspected that modern humans and our ancient Neanderthal cousins interbred, and now DNA evidence shows that it did occur, and dates when it occurred, researchers say. ..."

More at:

Who is Wai Genriu, the creator of the "Wai diet"? Some people who follow the "Wai diet" don't know, because for some time the identity was kept confidential. Some even mistakenly guessed that "Wai" is an Asian female.  ;D It turns out that Wai Genriu is a pseudonym used by Thijs Klompmaker, who was a waiter in Amersterdam in the early days of his promoting his diet on the Internet. He eventually revealed his identity publicly:

Amsterdam waiter surprises medical world with osteoporosis publication
Interview, Gezond Nu 2006; 10 (Oct) / page 28-31 (Original in Dutch)

He originally developed his diet as a way to treat his acne. Because his diet was low in calcium, he also developed an interest in the effect of lifetime high calcium intakes on long term bone health.

There are a couple of forums at his website, but they are not particularly active and he himself has not participated in them in some years:

Hot Topics / Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« on: February 03, 2014, 07:54:38 pm »
Chronic Zero Carb, Very Low Carb and Ketogenic diets are even worse than I realized. They are only useful in the short term, and no one knows how long is too long. Some people are developing serious, life-threatening autoimmune diseases while staying on them. Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods. Don't let it progress into autoimmunity.

If you are following a zero carb or very-low-carb (also called "ketogenic) raw or cooked Paleo diet (I'll define VLC as roughly below 20% of calories), including a thing called the "Autoimmune Protocol", or an elimination diet recommended by a Naturopath that unfortunately turned out to be ketogenic and low in resistant starch, then you, like me, have been misled (probably in part by ignorant Paleo and LC "experts" who don't know what they're talking about). It's not safe, much less ideal. I don't have time to answer a lot of questions right now, unfortunately, so for now I ask folks to learn all you can about resistant starch and the Old Friends Hypothesis.

Apparently, two of the important things that humans should do are:

- stay out of ketosis most of the time (it's a stressful process designed to kick in during starvation, not every day)
- consume sufficient resistant starch (something like around 20 - 30 grams per day, but start out with smaller amounts to avoid flatulence or detox) and other prebiotics

Starchy foods have unfortunately been wrongly demonized. Many of them contain resistant starch that feeds our gut bacteria, especially raw starchy foods, so it's actually a good argument for eating plenty of raw foods, as long as a big portion of them are starchy, which are unfortunately rare in supermarkets these days.

I apologize for in the past recommending that people read Lex Rooker's journal. I didn't understand how dangerous his experiment is. Not many people on the planet did. Please forgive me.

Pay attention to what the critics of VLC/ketogenic say, like Iguana, not the proponents.

See the comments of Spanish Caravan, such as at this thread, for more information:

Spanish Caravan is a brilliant physician who was unfortunately sucked in by the thinking behind this dangerous diet and is now spilling the beans about this anonymously to avoid the risk of litigation. Other physicians know that VLC is a disaster but are afraid to publicly admit the error. Some other people online who have figured this out are Richard Nikoley, Tatertot Tim, Dr. BG, Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser.

It's possible that he or I may have some details wrong, because this is so new. No one has tried a chronic ketogenic diet before in all of human history. It's a dangerous novel experiment, with humans as guinea pigs.

I figured out too late that VLC makes no sense and is dangerous and didn't realize that I was missing this important thing called resistant starch.  I now think that one reason I've been finding it so hard to reincorporate carby foods into my diet is that my gut microbiome was damaged. It had already been damaged by years of antibiotics, so I was especially susceptible to this additional damage. I actually think that even the regular early cooked Paleo diet along the lines of what Loren Cordain recommended that included a reasonable amount of carbs from fruits and nuts started the damage for me, because it was low in resistant starch. It was a misleading diet because it made me feel so good at first.

I'm currently trying to aim for a diet that's more like what Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser recommend, though it's difficult due to my carb intolerance. I make sure to consume plenty of resistant starch most days (with intermittent days where I don't). Paul says to avoid legumes, but some of them are good sources of resistant starch, so I don't recommend doing that unnecessarily. Like starch, legumes also got more demonized than they should have been. If you're gut microbiome got screwed up, you may have to avoid them at first.

I know some people aren't going to believe me, but I don't want to get drawn into time-sucking debates. This thread is for the people who are having problems on VLC.

Off Topic / Beyondveg blatant error and oversight
« on: January 20, 2014, 06:28:36 am »
Here's some ammo for Tyler and anyone else to debunk with. My point is not to promote oats, but to point out the error in and their (and Richard Wrangham's) major oversight in dismissing the importance of the resistant starch content of raw foods (RS is highest in raw foods) without even making an effort to refute its value. But because oats are involved, I put it in Off Topic (perhaps it should have gone into Hot Topic?).

Here's the error at Beyondveg:
On the other hand, some resistant (indigestible) starch is formed by cooking. Resistant starch is present [Englyst 1985] in smaller amounts in (dehulled, rolled, steamed) oats than in cornflakes or white bread. However, about 94% of the carbohydrates are digested. Uncooked oats don't contain resistant starch, so their starch is totally digestible if left long enough in test tubes, but in practical terms it is less digestible than in cooked form.

Raw oats do contain resistant starch--

Grams of resistant starch in a 100g serving:
Oats, cooked .2 - .4
Oats, Rolled, "Uncooked" (meaning not further cooked beyond the initial brief steaming done during processing) 7.8 - 14.8


Totally raw steel-cut oats would likely contain even more resistant starch, as RS content is highest in raw foods. Yes, some retrograde RS is produced in cooking and cooling, but it never reaches the levels in the original raw foods.

More importantly than this one error is the fact that Beyondveg and Wrangham treat RS as a downside of raw eating, apparently assuming that its resistance to digestion in the stomach and small intestine is a bad thing. Quite the contrary, the very indigestibility of resistant starch is its great strength, because this enables it to reach the colon where it feeds our probiotic mutualistic gut bacteria, which in turn provide our bodies with beneficial short chain fatty acids (like butyrate) and vitamins. Thus, those who believe Beyondveg and Wrangham and think that RS and rawness of foods are unimportant and cook everything to death will starve their gut bacteria.

Off Topic / Iceman Kilimanjaro Expedition
« on: December 15, 2013, 11:23:39 pm »
Wim Hof is taking 25 people wearing minimal clothing (such as only shorts for the men) up Mount Kilimanjaro. "Amongst the climbers are people with Cancer, Rheumatism, Asthma, Crohn’s disease, and Multiple Sclerosis."

Discovery Daily Planet

He is raising funds for the project, which will demonstrate to the world that anyone can learn "to control his or her autonomic nervous system" and "activate the self-healing capacities of the body and thereby cure diseases."

Hot Topics / NBA Stars Reporting Success on Paleo (cooked)
« on: December 15, 2013, 10:37:16 pm »
Kobe Briant, Ray Allen, Dwight Howard, Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin, and other NBA players have adopted Paleo or semi-Paleo diets (all cooked, AFAIK) and reported good results and the entire Lakers team eats Paleo team meals:


Protect your access to good food:

Take Action Today!
The FDA’s new food safety rules threaten to drive some of the safest local and organic farms out of business. Protect your access to good food!

the DEADLINE for comments to the FDA on proposed rules for the Food Safety and Modernization Act (FSMA) is this Friday, November 15, 2013.

The FDA comment page:!submitComment;D=FDA-2011-N-0921-0199

Off Topic / Freelea is promoting cooked food!
« on: June 19, 2013, 10:36:47 am »
D10:Why sometimes eating cooked food is BETTER than RAW FOOD

Freelea says cooked potatoes are OK and she admitted that some of her friends ended up in mental wards trying to stay pure raw vegan, and that "you can kill yourself" trying to be 100% raw vegan! Even Durianrider said that a McDougall-style cooked diet is better than (fatty) raw avocados and nut butters and "a lot of people who ... try to do ... too hardcore [raw vegan] just end up back to square one."

Quite a change, but I can't say that I'm surprised. I predict more change in the future.

"The results of a recent study by Inger Ottestad and colleagues from Norway may thusly surprise the "pro-fish oil"-faction about as much as they surprised me (Ottestad. 2011): The ingestion of 8g of oxidized (peroxide value: 18mEq/kg; ansidine value: 9) fish oil (1.6g EPA+DHA) did not have any unfavorable short term-effects in previously healthy individuals. .... (Some Things Fishy: Oxidized Fish Oil Totally Benign!? Plus: The Inflammatory Side of EPA and Peroxide & Alkenal Levels in Commercial Fish and Vegetable Oils, Adel Moussa,

The throat sting many CLO newbies report is actually a good sign of a quality oil, and for me it diminished down to nothing over time as I got used to the fermented CLO. It started out tasting very nasty and strong to me and now the unflavored CLO/butter-oil combo gel tastes great and mild to me. I still get the throat sting from extra virgin olive oil, because I don't consume as much of that.

"Are you NEW to fermented cod liver oil? Please be aware that the fermented cod liver oil is very strong tasting and due to the enzyme content leaves a tingle in your throat. If you are new to the fermented cod liver oils, we recommend you try the capsules."

General Discussion / Totally raw green coffee
« on: May 25, 2013, 11:30:56 pm »
The recent green coffee bean craze, boosted by Dr. Oz, is an interesting confirmation of the benefits of raw Paleo, if it's more than just hype. Starbucks is even cashing in on the craze, though their green tea products have added ingredients, are highly processed, and probably not raw (

The coffee bean is a fruit seed/pit, rather than a legume (and some even regard certain legumes that are edible raw, such as tamarinds, jicama and groundnuts, as raw Paleo anyway). I'm posting this in the general forum because...

> I've never seen anyone claim that raw fruit seeds aren't raw Paleo (though I have seen caveats about sprouting and such)
> this thread is about raw green coffee beans, rather than the roasted variety
> while the raw beans themselves are too tough for me to bother eating them (though out of curiosity I softened some in my mouth until flavor was produced and they actually weren't that bad, though still not worth the bother), coffee water produced from soaking them is edible raw and I find it tasty
> fruit seed threads have been accepted in the general forum before, such as and

Caveat: because fruit seeds contain much higher concentrations of plant toxins than fruit flesh, it may be wise to limit intake. My thinking here is that raw green coffee bean water may be hormetic and a better alternative to roasted coffee, not that raw green coffee is fine in unlimited amounts.

I sometimes drink coffee and I've been using the lightest-roast (tan) coffee beans I could find between local shops and Amazon and soaking them overnight in cold water in a French Press instead of using boiling water and then either lightly heating it in a microwave just enough to melt added butter or drinking it cold. Unaware of the recent green coffee craze, I then read about the reported anti-aging benefits of green coffee beans at Vince Giuliano's blog and wondered if they could be purchased and if "coffee" made from them would be palatable. I did some searching and found that vegan super athlete Rich Roll makes coffee from unroasted beans (see below) and I found and bought a 1 pound size of The Bean Coffee Company brand Costa Rican green coffee beans at Amazon to try them.

I ground the beans a bit--they are tougher and therefore more difficult to grind than roasted beans--and soaked them overnight in the French press, as usual. I was surprised to find that the resulting coffee water, while very mild, tasted rather good to me--mildly nutty and sweet, similar to raw cacao--especially by the third day I tried it, despite Tim Ferriss' writing that it's "Slightly bitter and somewhat flavorless." Maybe it's because I notice subtle flavors much more since eating mostly raw?

It's early to tell, but I seem to notice some of the energy and feeling of well being I get from roasted coffee beans without the jitteriness or muscle achiness I get if I drink too much roasted coffee, or too often.


Here's some info on raw green coffee beans:

Three identified ingredients in green coffee believed to produce beneficial effects (hypthesized as due to hormesis and/or antioxidant activity) are chlorogenic acid, caffeine and caffeic acid (unrelated to caffeine).

Green Coffee Bean Extract: Fat-Burner or Fraud?

Vincent Giuliano wrote that the xenohormetic ingredients in green coffee beans include caffeic acid and chlorogenic acid and that "Green coffee beans are good. These polyphenols are damaged by the heat with coffee bean roasting." Chlorogenic acid and caffeic acid inhibit DNA methyltransferases (DNMTs). DNMTs "silence" genes that promote health and anti-aging when active. (Source: Vincent Giuliano,

"Coffee is a notable source of caffeine. However, coffee’s effects on glycemic control and weight loss have been attributed to its other components, including chlorogenic acid, quinides, lignans, and trigonelline, all of which have been shown to improve glucose metabolism in animal studies.
Chlorogenic acid has specifically been shown to inhibit an enzyme, glucose-6-phosphatase, that promotes the formation of glucose (sugar) in the liver. Hence, chlorogenic acid in coffee may be responsible, at least in part, for the reduced risk of glycemic disorders, like diabetes, with long-term coffee consumption.
It may also be the source of coffee’s anti-obesity effects. Various studies have suggested that chlorogenic acid slows absorption of fat from food intake and also activates metabolism of extra fat. Unfortunately, traditional brewed coffee doesn’t serve as a good source of chlorogenic acid. While roasting green coffee beans removes its naturally bitter taste, it also removes a significant portion of chlorogenic acid. Hence, green coffee beans remain one of the best natural sources for chlorogenic acid."

Vegan super-athlete Rich Roll uses green coffee beans:
"Fat Loss. Similar to green tea and grape seed extract, organic raw (green) coffee beans have powerful anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant properties effective in combating free radical damage. Benefits in weight management are due to two active compounds, caffeine (lower in green beans) and chlorogenic acid (which is destroyed by roasting) [TIM: Also found in my perennial fave, yerba mate]. The caffeine releases fatty acids into the bloodstream from stored body fat, while the chlorogenic acid increases efficiency of metabolizing these fats while inhibiting sugar (glucose) absorption by the blood stream.

Simply grind the green beans and prepare in a French Press like normal coffee. Alternatively, place the ground beans in water in the sun to brew iced coffee. However, don’t expect it to taste like coffee – it doesn’t. Slightly bitter and somewhat flavorless, try adding erythritol to sweeten. Nor will it give you a boost; its caffeine content is significantly lower than roasted beans.

There was a rumor that Starbucks was test-marketing some iced green bean elixirs, but I have yet to see it hit stores. Probably didn’t test well."
- Tim Ferriss,

"While the caffeine content in coffee may play a role in weight loss, chlorogenic acid, lignans and other elements have a stronger effect on glucose metabolism as well as other less discussed benefits of green coffee bean extract. Unfortunately, traditional coffee is not a good source of chlorogenic acid.

The process of roasting green coffee beans removes the bitter taste associated with coffee, but it also removes much of the chlorogenic acid. Raw, unroasted green coffee beans are the best natural source of CGA.

Green coffee bean supplements usually contain an extract of chlorogenic acid and other hydroxycinnamic acids. These ingredients have proven antioxidant properties that are beneficial for health. Test subjects who took green coffee supplements lost an average of 18 pounds over a 12-week period. They lost fat from their bellies and other parts of the body."

New Evidence That Caffeine Is a Healthful Antioxidant in Coffee

Antioxidant activity of caffeic acid (3,4-dihydroxycinnamic acid)

Bee propolis can contain caffeic acid. See Antioxidant activity of propolis: role of caffeic acid phenethyl ester and galangin,

Trollofthedungeon shared this interesting link (at this thread -

Which contains this definition from The American Malefactor’s Dictionary:
black ointment
- pieces of raw meat (“It soothes dogs and men.”).

Barrère, Albert and Charles G. Leland. A Dictionary of Slang, Jargon, and Cant. [London]: The Ballantyne Press, 1889.
Farmer, John S. and W. E. Henley. A Dictionary of Slang and Colloquial English. Abridged from Slang and Its Analogues. London: George Routledge and Sons, 1912.
Matsell, George W. Vocabulum: Or, the Rogue’s Lexicon.. New York: George W. Matsell, 1859.
Partridge, Eric. A Dictionary of the Underworld. New York: Bonanza Books, 1961."

I found this purported explanation of it:
Cassel Dictionary of Slang - Page 121
Jonathon Green - 2005
"black ointment n. [mid-19C] (UK Und.) a piece of raw meat. [its use as a cure for black eyes] "

And a876.pal found confirmation of that explanation from one of the sources listed by The American Malefactor’s Dictionary:
A Dictionary of the Underworld
" 'Pieces of raw meat' (B. & L.); c.: from ca. 1870. Perhaps ex idea of meat poultice for a black eye. (Alexander McQueen.) "

The "meat poultice" term from this source produces many more hits. Based on the sources I looked at, it appears that the raw meat poultice (aka beef poultice, beef bandage, black ointment and the similar fat meat poultice aka bacon poultice) was used to treat not just black eyes, but also boils, infected wounds, splinters, earaches and even cancer of the lip! This is quite supportive of raw meat eating, because it shows that raw meat heals not only internally, but also externally and is thus an amazingly healthful food.

Here are some more links:

Warder, Bushnell & Glessner's Handbook For Farmers: Containing A Collection Of Practical Household Remedies, Hints For The Farm And House, The ... Curing Sick Horses ... Hogs And Poultry ...
 By Warder, Bushnell & Glessner Co
 published before 1923
"Blackened Eyes - Apply warm bread poultices, and change them often. An application of raw meat will restore the color."

Dr. Chase's recipes; or, Information for everybody: an invaluable collection of about eight hundred practical recipes
A W. 1817-1885 Chase (Author)
"Black eye: This is caused by a blow or bruise. ....

To remove the black color of the eye, bind on a little raw meat; or a poultice made of the root of Solomon's seal."

J M Roberts, Law of Right, Charleston Gazette, Thursday, October 17, 1946, Page 10,, Thursday, October 17, 1946
"They are going to try to apply a salve in the form of a meat poultice."
"The reason behind using a steak was the fact that steak in general is kind of flexible and would form to the contour of your eye socket. (Bags of frozen peas are sometimes used for the same purpose.) Nowadays, most people simply recommend a washcloth soaked in cold water.

The steak treatment may originate in ancient Greek medical theory of the "Four Humors." The beef, being red and bloody, would draw out the swelling."
"Her father had a cancer of the lip and the remedy was a half puond beef poultice to draw out the poison." (19th century Scotland)

The idea that beef or pork, particularly the fatty parts and especially raw, would "draw out" bad stuff from swellings, wounds, cancers, splinters, and so on was apparently pretty common in the past.

The similar term "white ointment" also refers to a topical therapy, but instead of raw red meat, it consists of "5 percent white wax and 95 percent white petrolatum" (

Raw fermented honey is an animal food made by bees (like milk is an animal food made by cows; and thus vegans tend to avoid it):
Fermented raw honey]

I don't often promote specific brands, but raw fermented honey is so rare and this is such a good product that this is a case where I will (no conflict of interest to report--I don't get anything from them for doing so):
Really Raw brand raw fermented honey:
"Moisture and warmth produce fermentation. When the moisture level of the honey is slightly elevated and the temperature is warm, fermentation may occur, due to the enzymes and the yeast in honey. Two main reasons for heating honey in modern times are to stop fermentation and be able to strain it. But fermentation is not harmful. Some people believe that it is more effective for digestion than honey that is not fermented, but we have not seen any documentation to either prove or disprove this theory."
"honey itself can ferment, if it contains enough residual moisture and is left in a warm place--honey ferments but never spoils! Fermented honey actually expands somewhat, and develops rich flavors. It is an even better aid to digestion than regular honey." - Sally Fallon, Fermented Honey,

Making raw mead:-   
How To Easily Make Your Own Mead

Raw fermented fish sauce, aka Worcestershire sauce (the stuff sold in supermarkets today is no longer raw fermented like the traditional recipe, unfortunately), aka garum, and raw fermented fish oil, aka liquidum:
" Roman times, long before refrigeration, fish guts were placed in a barrel with sea water and allowed to ferment. What came out the bottom of the barrel was a watery fermented fish sauce called garam, widely used as a seasoning (probably the precursor of Worcestershire sauce). The oil floated to the top and was collected carefully. This fermented fish oil was undoubtedly the civilized world's first health elixir, reserved for the soldiers and nobility. It is said that the soldiers refused to march without their daily ration of liquidum."
Garum (raw fermented fish sauce)--"the supreme condiment":
"Garum, or Roman garum, was a popular Roman fermented fish sauce that was used extensively in Ancient Roman cooking. The sauce was often referred to as the 'supreme condiment' and was one of the most essential flavoring agents. The sauce was named after Garos or Garon, the fish whose intestines were used originally to make the condiment. As time progressed, intestines of other, more readily available fish like tuna, eel and mackerel were used to make the sauce.
It is largely believed that the original Roman garum was not a pleasant sauce. Records indicate that even to Romans who loved the condiment, the smell of fermenting garos was very foul. It is, however, noteworthy that despite the foul odor, the sauce was a part of almost every preparation, either as an ingredient or as an accompaniment."

More traditional raw fermented fish sauces: Bplaa Raa (Thai), prahok (Cambodian) and padek (Lao) - "Bplaa Raa A Sublime Stench,"

Raw fermented cod liver oil
There's only one brand that I know of (Green Pasture's Blue Ice raw fermented CLO), but there are multiple sources listed at "Cod Liver Oil Basics and Recommendations" by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, PhD,

Raw fermented fish and sea mammal (stinkfish, surströmming, stink flipper, stink heads, ...): describes the following raw fermented fish and sea mammal foods:
Bagoong (Philippines)
Fesikh (Egypt)
Garum (Ancient Rome)
Hakarl (Iceland)
Hongeohoe (Korea)
Igunaq (Inuit)
Kusaya (Japan)
Lakerda (Turkey)
Ngari (Manipur, India)
Pla ra (Thailand)
Rakfisk (Norway)
Surströmming (Sweden)
Tepa (Yup'ik Eskimo)

In Iqaluich Nigiñaqtuat (Fish That We Eat, Anore Jones writes how some Inuit ferment their fish in cold ground or in wooden casks kept in cool areas, with salt added.

Vilhjalmur Stefansson on Eskimo fermented fish in The Fat of the Land:
In many districts fish were caught throughout the summer in larger quantities than could be consumed. There were two methods of preservation.

I saw a typical instance of one method during my first year in the North. Fish, ranging from one to three or four pounds in weight, were caught in great numbers. They were immediately slit and the entrails removed, and were then piled in long windrows just back from the sea beach, and covered with piles of driftwood for protection from dogs and wolves. If there had been June fishing at this place, the fish would have been nearly liquid by fall. Late July catches grew so rotten that a fish might fall to pieces if you tried to handle it. The August catch was pretty high; but toward the end of September there was so much frost at night and so little thaw during the day that putrefaction ceased.

Decayed fish were not eaten during the warm weather; they were not considered good until frozen. As soon as the freeze-up came, they began to be used as delicacies, some- times as whole meals. The only way of serving decayed fish was to allow them to thaw in the house until they were as soft as hard ice cream, when they were eaten somewhat as a child would consume an ice cream cone. The taste is similar to that of our strong cheeses. The attitude of the Mackenzie Eskimos toward decayed fish was about that of our fashion- able diners toward Camembert or Limburger.

When fish are caught rapidly there is nothing to do but pile them in windrows. But if the catch is slower, the few not eaten are likely to be split and hung up to dry. Com- monly, the backbone is removed and used for dog feed, either then or later-indeed, fish bones, no matter what the condition of the fish or the method of eating, are mainly dog feed.

The mentioned second Eskimo way of preserving fish is wind-drying. This is seldom carried to such an extent that the flesh becomes as hard as in Scandinavian practice. Usually an Eskimo dried fish is about as soft as our salted cod. When they get to that hardness they are taken down, piled, and covered from rain by water-shedding skins.

There are pickled herring instructions in The Whole Beast: Nose to Tail Eating, by Fergus Henderson,

Here is a whey-fermented fish recipe:

Surströmming -ömmingShareSurströmming

How to Make Surstromming -

Icelandic raw fermented meats/fish:
lundabaggar: raw fermented lamb
hrutspungar: raw fermented ram’s testicles
hákarl: raw fermented and dried shark
(See Fermented Icelandic Sheep,

Raw fermented sausage and other traditionally cured or fresh sausage-style meats:

Though completely uncooked, [traditional] salami are not "raw" per se; they have been prepared via curing. The term salame cotto refers to salami cooked or smoked before or after curing and it is typical of Piedmont region in Italy. This is done to impart a specific flavor but not to cook the meat. Before curing, a cotto salame is still considered raw and is not ready to be eaten.

Traditional sausage/salami recipes using no preservatives and no smoking or high heat are available at (thanks to razmatazz)

Some of the following are technically not considered "Paleo":

Fermented raw dairy
For raw primal (Aajonus Vonderplanitz style), raw Weston Price, and raw Primal Blueprint (Mark Sisson style) dieters

Raw (just warmed) yogurt:

Tips from Seth Roberts:
"Now I just take the milk from the refrigerator, put in a tiny amount of culture, surround the milk with hot water (using a Chinese yogurt-making machine that keeps the water warm), and wait. So much easier. The final product is better (smoother, thicker) than the old hard way, especially when I learned that tiny amounts of culture work better than large amounts. “In my experience, cultures from commercial yogurts never maintain their viability beyond a few generations,” Katz writes. My experience is different: I’ve never had a problem using them."

- Seth Roberts, from a review of The Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz

Casu marzu (which translates to "rotten cheese"--Sardinian fermented cheese with live maggot larvae), gravlax (Norwegian raw fermented salmon) and hákarl - You Eat That? By RACHEL HERZ, JANUARY 28, 2012, (natto and chicha are also covered)

General Discussion / Bee & Scorpion Sting Therapy
« on: December 07, 2012, 09:11:30 am »
Bee Therapy
Scorpion Stings, Bee Stings, and the Umami Hypothesis

I suspect that hormesis is one of the factors at work with sting therapies.

Students of Green Mountain College in Vermont voted to eat the meat of oxen that can no longer work at the school's farm as part of the sustainable farming that the school is dedicated to, and in so doing they sparked the attention and ire of PETA fanatics. As a result, vegetarians from around the globe have been criticizing the students and school, with some even terrorizing the school with death threats. Please speak out against vegetarian critics and terrorists and defend the students and your right to eat meat.

One of Green Mountain College's students has asked for help in defending sustainable agriculture involving cattle:

Please retweet her tweets and spread the word.

Here's another student's plea on Tumbler:
Our school is about 30% vegan/vegetarian and most meat eating students only eat meat that meets a certain criteria (local, humane, etc.). There was an overwhelming consensus to slaughter them. However, the animal sanctuary that offered to take them didn’t like our decision. They created petitions, use every news outlets, and reached out to many organizations (PETA, ALF, etc.). They have harassed our school for a couple months with protests and bombarding our schools Facebook page. They have threaten teachers, students, faculty, slaughterhouses, business that support/supported GMC, and so on. People have received death threats, legal action (suing the school/community), harassment, and other ridiculous actions. They are slandering the school with false accusations and trying to create a PR nightmare. However we still stand by our position and do so with polite responses.

Sorry for making you read all of that, but we need your help. We’re trying to outreach to the public to show them what our school is actually about along with releasing the truth behind these slanderous organizations. I just want to spread this issue and have it acknowledged. Our schools response to this issue can be found at and there is a YouTube video explaining it (That the oppoisition is trying to dislike to destroy its credibility) If you all can just spread the word my school and I would greatly appreciate it. monkeymcnamara,

Here are some sites where you can counter the vegetarians with comments or thumbs-up:

Some emails threatened to shut the college down and hurt donations, the school said; the head of the farm and food project said he has gotten death threats and someone urinated on his car

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Bletting astringent fruits
« on: October 29, 2012, 04:14:48 am »
One of the more puzzling claims that didn't seem to fit well with the raw Paleo approach was claims by cooked Paleos and others that certain astringent fruits with reported health benefits, like quinces, require cooking. This didn't match well with the normal trend I've noticed for foods that are edible raw to be the healthiest, so I was skeptical of it, but I didn't find anything suggesting that these fruits were ever eaten raw ... until now. Check this out that I discovered after looking up info on medlar fruit:
Bletting is a process that certain fleshy fruits undergo, beyond ripening. There are some fruits that are either sweeter after some bletting, such as sea buckthorn, or for which most varieties can be eaten raw only after bletting, such as medlars, persimmons, quince, Service Tree fruit, and Wild Service Tree fruit ("chequers"). The rowan fruit, aka Mountain Ash must be bletted, then cooked to be edible, to break down the toxic parasorbic acid into sorbic acid.

Even rowan berries are edible in small quantities after freezing (though consuming too much can reportedly lead to kidney damage):
Rowan is another name for the European Mountain Ash. Mountain ashes around the world tend to fall into two groups. One group has berries that are usually processed into jelly or jams and are barely edible off the tree after frost if not after freezing a few times or a long stint in your freezer. Raw their quality is not great. The other group has been bred to be eaten raw and can also be made into various sweet products. So the fruit is edible but… You will read in some places that the seeds contain compounds which upon digestion release small amounts of cyanide. This is probably true.  The seeds of some 1,000 plants in the greater group (Rose) do have some cyanidic compounds. Processing (the breaking down of cell structures and letting enzymes go to work) and or cooking usually take care of that issue. Small amounts of raw fruit are considered tolerable and to my knowledge there are no bad cyanide-related reports about Mountain Ash fruit. Man probably discovered these fruit — and their necessary vitamin C — were edible in the winter time because they persist on the tree and taste better the older they get (which additionally might reduce the potential cyanide amount.) The berries also contain malic acid and parasorbic acid. Malic acid is what makes apples tart. Parasorbic acid can upset the tummy raw but cooking changes it to sorbic acid which is not a problem.

Rowan berries are very bitter and you will need to add both sugar and salt to balance this. Much of this bitterness is caused by the compound sorbic acid. You should also note that raw Rowan berries also contain sorbic acid's precursor parasorbic acid. This causes indigestion and in high doses it can lead to kidney damage. However, heat treatment converts parasorbic acid to the benign sorbic acid. Thus if you have cooked the fruit in some manner they are entirely safe to eat. Freezing also helps in this conversion process so if you collect the fruit immediately after the first frost and then freeze them before preparation this will also help reduce the levels of parasorbic acid in the fruit.

Off Topic / Gary Johnson for President of the USA
« on: October 08, 2012, 09:36:11 am »
It's well-past time to move on from Ron Paul, as he's out of the running. So should we choose Gary Johnson or someone else?

Ray Audette reported some time ago that fruit-living orangutans were found in a study (Knott, Cheryl D. "Changes in orangutan diet, caloric intake and ketones in response to fluctuating fruit availability," International Journal of Primatology (1998), 1061-79.) to spend about half of the year in ketosis when, according to Ray, "high carb fruits were not available" (;8abf49f3.1002) and he guessed it was due to "low carb". I had also read claims that there are times of the year when little to no fruits are available in tropical Africa. Then I recently learned that wild figs, one of the favorite foods of wild chimps, are available year-round in tropical Africa. I remembered what Ray had written about orangutan ketosis and I wondered if there are fruits that provide ketones, such as figs, perhaps, and whether they might contribute to ketosis in primates. Sure enough, figs and other fruits provide ketones:

[Edit insertion:

To many LCers on the Internet, fruits are "sugars" and therefore "toxic." Ketones from "sugars"? How ironic.

Then I found a free full-text version of the study that Ray cited ( and found that even in the "fruit-poor" ketogenic period, 21% of the orangutan diet was still fruit and 37% was bark (not animal fat), plus epiphytes, pithy plants, flowers, leaves, insects and seeds, with bark as the "primary dietary component". Bark is not low carb:

"There are considerable differences among species of trees, but all barks contain sugars, starch, cellulose, hemicellulose, and mineral elements."

Could bark contain ketones? Sure enough, it can: The study didn't attribute the ketosis to LC, but to low calorie conditions resulting in the burning of body fat. In other words, starvation ketosis, not a LC ketogenic diet.

I also learned recently on this forum of an observation of orangutans intentionally fermenting durian fruit to the point where alcohol was produced [edit insertion:]. They then gorged on it and became quite drunk. Guess what else can apparently provide ketones? That's right, alcohol ("alcohol converts more easily to ketones than fatty acids" --Doreen, Ketosis & Ketone Test Strips, What about durian fruit? Yup:

"A study conducted in 1995 found that esters, sulfur, and ketones - the compound responsible for "morning breath" - combine to produce the durian's powerful smell." (Gregory Rodgers, Durian Fruit: Interesting Facts About Southeast Asia's King of the Fruits,

So in the wild, orangutans can apparently achieve ketosis on a low-calorie, high-carb diet that includes foods that also provide some ketones, plus hindgut fermentation of fiber into fats. Of course, none of this means that you should necessarily emulate orangutans. What it does seem to suggest is that nature has proven once again to be far more complex than the Internet debates and dietary dogmas would lead one to believe.

What about foods rich in protein? Paul Jaminet investigated this and reported that even amino acids from muscle meat can be ketogenic:

From: Ketogenic Diets, I: Ways to Make a Diet Ketogenic
Posted by Paul Jaminet on    February 24, 2011

Leucine and lysine ... are purely ketogenic.
Isoleucine, tryptophan, phenylalanine, and tyrosine ... can be either ketogenic or glucogenic.
The other amino acids ... are purely glucogenic.

Off Topic / Give it to me Raw is Shutting Down
« on: July 13, 2012, 07:11:46 am »

I received an email that the Give It To Me Raw forum is shutting down:
On 07/12/12 5:07 PM, Give it to me Raw wrote:
> Hi everyone, Dhru here.
> After a few months of thinking about it, I've decided to shut Give it to me Raw down. I'm really sorry. Please watch this video for a full explanation (
> The site will be shutting down in 30 days [on July 26th, 2012.].
> If you are looking for an amazing raw food inspired community, I suggest signing up for ( The site is run by my friend Penni Shelton and she is amazing. They are always open to quality people joining.
> Thanks for sticking around as long as you did.
> Much love,
> Dhru

Tyler, you might want to remove the GITMR forum link from:

The last time I had checked in I noticed the activity there had dwindled way down from what it had been. I hadn't been active myself on it in months and it looks like they had already deleted my account access due to inactivity anyway, though my profile and posts were still there, so if you have stuff there that you want to save, you probably still can, even if you haven't been active.

At 1:33 in this video, the founder of the forum,  Dhru, talks about how the forum started getting a lot of people who wanted to debate raw foods instead of learn from one another, and say things like "This is the right thing to do," "No, you can't do this," "You have to be vegan," and "debating with a mean-spirited vibe".
Good Bye GI2MR

After being invited to join that forum by a member there, I did find the militant vegan stuff to be a turn off, though it was never as bad as at 30BAD. If I had perused the forum extensively first and saw that stuff, I doubt I would have joined. As it turned out, I did learn a few interesting things and had some interesting discussions with some good people.

[Edit: I re-activated my account at GITMR to post a link to this forum, in case any there are interested.]

General Discussion / Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« on: June 18, 2012, 08:59:40 am »
Anyone aware of any other raw (unpasteurized) alcoholic beverages sold in the USA beyond these?:

> real ale (aka cask ale)
> traditional champagne
> nama sake

Any volunteers for moderating the Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach section? You don't have to be ZC to do it, as the Carnivorous term allows for some carbs, and lately my diet hasn't really fit the carnivorous mold either. I just think you should preferably be friendly to the carnivorous approach.

I've been gradually becoming less active here and reading fewer and fewer of the threads and plan on becoming less active still, and I've been a moderator for longer than I originally intended, so I'm beyond ready to pass the baton. It has become a much less active section than in the past, so it shouldn't require much time, though in my case I tried to help out by reporting spammers and answering questions in other sections too. One of the moderators could probably add this section to their duties with little problem, for example.

It's been interesting to watch the enthusiasm for ZC and very carnivorous diets wane since I first became the moderator, both here and elsewhere, and my own leaning has tilted more toward omnivory (though I prefer my own term of adaptivory because omnivory sounds like anything goes), even though I'm still less able to handle carby foods than the vast majority of people. Learning that there's a wild tuber that's edible raw called "Eskimo potato" and finding that I handle certain rare carby foods like wild Maine blueberries far better than common supermarket carby foods really sealed the deal for me. I see my low carb tolerance as a residual health defect of mine rather than the fundamental nature of human beings or even folks of Northern European stock like myself. I'm hoping to further improve my ability to handle carby foods over time, rather than remain VLC forever.

I hope I've paid back the forum for the wonderful benefits that raw Paleo provided me. I think I've paid my dues at this point, though perhaps some might think I was more detriment than help. ;)

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