Author Topic: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid  (Read 1193 times)

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Offline surfsteve

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Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« on: June 16, 2018, 10:21:19 pm »
There are two types of betaine, the TMG form and the HCL form.

I used to love taking TMG. It made me feel great, was supposed to detoxify me and helped with my workouts; but I had to stop taking it because it gave me bad breath.

A few days ago on a whim I ordered some Betaine HCL. It's not as popular in the body building community and it's common usage is for weak stomach acid and promoting digestion. As soon as I ordered it I regretted my decision and thought about what the TMG did to my breath and how I already drink tons of Apple Cider Vinegar and eat tons of lemons.

The HCL arrived last night and I took quite a bit of it. IT'S VERY ACID! Upon awakening this morning my lungs and sinuses feel clear of mucus. My joints and muscles also feel way less stiff! My only concern is that it will give me bad breath or that I may not be able to handle the acid but I seem to crave the acid just like vinegar and lemons. In fact my digestion feels like it's on fire and that I  have the digestion of a 20 year old!

I googled HCL and bad breath and instead of causing it one person claimed that betaine HCL got rid of it.

Too early to tell. But this just might be what I been needing!

https://www.foodrenegade.com/hcl-not-just-supplement/
http://divinehealthfromtheinsideout.com/2012/03/should-you-be-supplementing-with-hydrochloric-acid/
https://scdlifestyle.com/2013/10/4-common-betaine-hcl-mistakes/
https://blog.kettleandfire.com/leaky-gut-supplements/
https://legionathletics.com/betaine/
https://draxe.com/what-is-betaine/
http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t5184-i-found-a-solutionn-to-halitosis-bad-breath

Offline van

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2018, 01:30:54 am »
be careful.  often people will take it in the amounts that create a burn in the stomach.   Or so they say they take to the amount until they feel the burn.  By then its to late. You've got an irritated stomach lining which Can signal your body to produce less HCL to protect the stomach.  All I'm saying is there's a delicate balance and it's easy to mess it up with ideas. I found that after taking apple cider vinegar for a while it was hurting my stomach.   We have a taste for bitter, but only for so much ( assuming we're eating something naturally presented in nature that hasn't been altered by processing). For example, how many lemons does your mouth really want to eat whole, without juicing?

Offline surfsteve

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2018, 11:52:49 pm »
I agree. Caution always. Though actually rather than becoming dependent on it and having to take it all the time I've read that taking betaine HCL will stimulate your body to produce it's own HCL and that you can take less as time goes on and may even be able to quit taking it. Generally the older you become the weaker your stomach acid. I think most of us on this forum eat a lot of meat and would benefit from having a high stomach acid. You are not what you eat. You are what you assimilate.

The main way I take lemons is to slice them with the peelings and dehydrate them in my drier. My mouth wants to eat more of them than my teeth can handle so I grind them up and sprinkle them on meat and fish.


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https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Betaine-HCl-648-Capsules/product-reviews/B000M4CD2C
More expensive than the brand I bought but had some nice reviews.



Offline van

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2018, 04:19:23 am »
I agree on the HCL helping out in the beginning.   I did the same and tapered off to none.   Now I let the natural stop inform me when eating one piece after another how much I can digest.  That stop I believe informs more than just how much HCL is available, but a host of other factors probably so numerous or beyond imagination.   That's why I continually suggest eating and chewing thoroughly one piece after another to enable the stop to present itself. 
   It can be like smoking pot though,, "oh I'll just smoke a couple of times to expand or reset my consciousness and then I'll quit...."

Offline norawnofun

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2018, 07:38:26 am »
I do have quite some experience with low HCI as well. I tried ACV, Red wine vinegar, Lemon, Orange juice, Grapefruit juice, a juiced gingershot made with lemon, apple and ginger, beet juice, beet juice with carrot and ginger, raw corn on cob, sparkling water (both, naturally sparkling and added carbonation), certain red wines (syrah and carbernet sauvignon were best), and also bought 2 HCI brands. One from thorne (porcine source) and the other one from premier labs (beetroot source) among some mixes of the above like orange juice with lemon, acv with lemon juice and so forth..

I took some of these things for over a year and here are my observations:

1. Apple cider vinegar and lemon. They seem to help but in my experience they don´t in the long run. Especially ACV as it can surpress hunger and made my stomach bloated. So I didn´t want to drink it anymore when I drank it before a meal (also tried with and after a meal) even though I was hungry a couple of minutes earlier. That´s a problem if you then start to eat, since your digestive juices in the mouth do not prepare the stomach for the foods what´s about to come. So you eat and you cant digest it since the hunger feeling is gone. IMO it can replace HCI, but at the same time represses your own. Bad idea. Same with lemon and red wine winegar.

2. Orange juice and grapefruit juice (g is more acidic and less sugar) help digestion too but you get a lot of sugar and you are then dependent on them. I also observed that they surpress my own HCI.

3. The gingershot was helping as well, especially due to the ginger but same thing here. However, just biting into one ginger and leaving it in the mouth for several minutes after a meal helps A LOT more to enhance digestive juices/enzymes

4. Beet juice on its own did nothing, but juice with beets, carrots and ginger helped quite a lot. But it was such a mess and hazzle to do this that i stopped.

5. Raw corn on the cob. Worked really great, however, it´s expensive to get organic so it wasn´t feasible and practical (ur not gonna carry around raw corn on the cobs all the time ur out)

6. I tried several naturally and carbonated waters. I read that the carbonated ones are acidic (I assume the natural ones as well). They seemed to work since they made the food move through the intestines quickly which makes space in your stomach and therefore you feel you need to eat more. So more hunger more gastric acid is produced (at least in my theory). Only problem is that when you drink sparkling water (even naturally sparkling) all the time it hurts or maybe even inflames your intestines. Bad idea when u got inflamed intestines already.

7. Certain red wine grapes (which are more acidic) can help digestion tremendously. I would say 1-2 glasses were ok. The food got properly digested and the wine grapes themselves have digestive abilities which help digestion further down the digestive tract. Only problem is too much alcohol is no good when ur not fully healthy and it becomes expensive. Sleep however was great on 1-2 glasses as digestion was very fast and smooth.

8. As mentioned i tried 2 types of HCI. The porcine source made me blocked and bloated (maybe the pork source) and the other one I initially cut out too. However, I started the other one again, this time on a different time interval. That´s 30-45 minutes after food. And so far it works well but I would be careful as it has already been mentioned when you don´t have much stomach lining.

Basically what I can conclude at this stage is that most of these substitues are no good. What you want is your own body to produce enough HCI himself, not lower it by taking substitutes. You might think ACV helps, but it makes things worse. Since I cut out ACV and lemon juice for example, my body produces HCI by himself more and more it seems. I just made this discovery a couple of days ago and I still experiment with the HCI supplement, but I want to cut it out asap as well. Even when ur older you should produce your own HCI, not depend on supplements. Do tribes that eat a RVAF diet use supplements when they get older? No.

I think the most important thing to reproduce your own HCI is by NOT taking supplements, but by teaching your body how to produce it naturally again. I think one crucial thing is the need for hunger, since saliva is produced which is the first step, and how fast the digestive process is (let say food moves through the intestines). IMO that can be enhanced with fats and fiber. When I was eating a lot of bread and grains (like pasta which has a lot of sauce and olive oil) my digestion was super fast and great (aside of the accumulating inflammation which then fucked up digestion), but moving food through the intestines fast mainly with the help of fats or fiber, foods high in magnesium and therefore the peristaltic movement is crucial. I recently looked into food challenges. You know, the people which can eat a shitload of food very fast. Their stomach acid must be incredible and the digestion must work super fast. Otherwise there is no way you can stuff that much in such a short time without puking it all out in a couple of minutes. So I think the key is finding out how they do it and apply it to yourself by eating healthy foods. I also noticed that what I once read you should never do actually turned out to be more beneficial than anything. That´s drinking still water with meals. Especially cooked meals (which I eat since they are easier to digest than raw foods on low HCI).

So to recap. I think the key to get your stomach acid levels back to top class is by drinking a big glass of water before food (which increases the activation of saliva and digestive enzymes according to my experiments), then eat bigger portions more frequently (bulking up) step by step with plenty of fats AND fiber (fiber in form of tigernut flour and nuts to replace the fiber in breads) together with water. That would make things move fast and fast digestion means more hunger, means bigger portions which signals the body to produce more HCI naturally. During that time you could add HCI and digestive bitters (which i found very helpful but still didn´t finish experimenting with) and maybe magnesium if food travels too slowly through the intestines and ur not eating enough foods high in magnesium (if u for ex. are intolerant to certain foods), then slowly lowering these 2/3 supplements until you notice that your body produces HCI naturally again. Once that is done you could cut out the starch/fibers of the tigernut and nuts and eat raw fats and meats only. But in my experience its better to eat a cooked paleo diet first, since the collagen is broken down due to cooking which makes digestion a lot easier on low HCI, then once digestion/HCI is back up you switch to raw meats and raw fats, fully heal and u reached ur goal.

I also think that just taking digestive bitters without HCI could help a lot, that would also be healthier than a HCI supplement. I ordered one recently and will provide an update once tested properly. And then there is the issue of candida and parasites. I think if you have an overload of them your body can´t produce enough HCI in the first place. So you need to lower the "bad bacteria" candia level by cutting out all fruits except maybe lemon and papaya for lets say a month, at the same time kill the malicious parasites (i think not all are bad) and then you have the whole package to heal.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 07:52:29 am by norawnofun »

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2018, 07:50:11 am »
I believe that stomach acid insufficiency can be a sign of mineral imbalance or deficiency...its difficult to tell for sure if it is a cause or a symptom There seems to be a catch 22 in that being mineral deficient inhibits the production of digestive enzymes that help breakdown foods for optimal mineral absorption.

There are typically a number of factors involved in these conditions that prevent an easy fix, like supplementation of a combination of enzymes or minerals, from being a long term solution.

I suffered from weak digestion for years and believe it was from a combination of being mineral and bacterial deficient, along with congested liver and eating the wrong foods.

I would recommend if possible trying fresh bile, I know there is freeze dried stuff on the market but if you really want to get the digestion going without risk of burning a whole in your gut, the raw stuff works much better.

I noticed a combination of fresh liver, pancreas, blood, and a shot of bile will allow me to gorge on large amounts of meat and fat without issue. I will also eat bones dissolved in vinegar for added minerals, and eat raw stomach smoothies for good bacteria. The green ingesta juice collected from the intestines is full of digestive enzymes and can be used as a natural digestive aid. (for those brave enough to try it, a shot of green intestine juice, with fresh squeezed lemon, and a raw egg on top is a good digestive primer before a large meal)

Perhaps during transitional phases some supplementation may be helpful, but try to opt for a more diet based approach if possible.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:20:27 am by sabertooth »
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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 09:02:29 am »
Derek, how does the intestinal juice taste? I helped slaughter a goat last fall and came very close to trying some from the carcass, but the goat was slaughtered as part of the class and the instructor made it clear that it was not acceptable for me to do that. (I had co-taught that class with her the year prior, and ate from the carcass freely while we taught students how to quarter and de-bone the animal. That did not go over well with the students.)
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2018, 12:02:01 pm »
The ingesta typically taste like a combination of bile and gentian root bitters, and has a mildly tangy acidity that lingers in the back of the throat. The small intestines are usually full of liquified greens in digestive juice, that can be collected as I strip off the lining of fat from the intestine. I have frozen the liquid into cubes and thaw it with a little water occasionally....sometimes i add a little lemon juice to it. I had already been eating blended raw stomach and intestines for a few years before consuming the intestinal contents, so was already somewhat acclimated to the taste, which to me isn't bad, and I actually have cravings for it from time to time....

I feel that there could be beneficial effects for other people to supplement similarly with fresh stomach, intestinal juice, pancreas....etc....basically the whole animal diet. It seems feasible that consuming small amounts of predigested plant mater  , along with the stomach, glands and organs of a healthy ruminating animal, can provide what is needed for the building and maintenance of optimal gut health. The plant matter and bacterial elements provide prebiotic and enzymatic qualities far superior and more holistic than any of these resistance starch schemes, or other such supplemental recommendations for optimizing the microbiome.

Though I am convinced there are merits in these preliminary findings regarding ingesting the entire raw unwashed digestive tracts of ruminating animals, I am not yet sure about finding other test subjects willing or able to follow through with experiments that would corroborate my own reports. Its very likely that such protocol if followed through would be able to cure a number of gut related conditions such as ulcers, crohn's, colitis, general digestive weakness, microbiome imbalances....ect. This line of research may be extremely beneficial for treating the elderly, or people heavily damaged with antibiotics and are no longer capable of naturally producing sufficient enzymes for optimal digestion.

I laugh at how the mainstream medical establishment is just now beginning to promote things like probiotic and fecal transplants...They are packaging and selling gut bacteria rebalancing protocols, which could be much more effectively and economically obtained from ingesting the whole raw digestive tracts of healthy animals.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 12:09:45 pm by sabertooth »
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2018, 03:18:41 pm »
I thought I should point out that wild animals do not necessarily eat the whole animal. I remember reading ages ago about lions and other carnivores like cheetahs carefully removing the part containing the faeces, for example. Other animals such as killer whales often just eat the tongue of raw whale calves. Cats generally eat the whole animal. I think it's a question of the size of the digestive tract of the prey. If it is small, it's not an issue, but intestines of  larger herbivores  contain lots of faecal and vegetable matter, which might put off some carnivores.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 03:25:51 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 11:14:26 pm »
I thought I should point out that wild animals do not necessarily eat the whole animal. I remember reading ages ago about lions and other carnivores like cheetahs carefully removing the part containing the faeces, for example. Other animals such as killer whales often just eat the tongue of raw whale calves. Cats generally eat the whole animal. I think it's a question of the size of the digestive tract of the prey. If it is small, it's not an issue, but intestines of  larger herbivores  contain lots of faecal and vegetable matter, which might put off some carnivores.



My main point is regarding the importance of consuming at least some portion of raw bacterial and enzymatically rich intestinal material. The average person does not consume any truly raw and biologically alive guts...the whales will eat fish whole, cats and wolves eat small animals whole, and many carnivores will eat at least some portion of guts from time to time. Small amounts from time to time may be all that is needed in order to prime a carnivores guts with the optimal microbe balance....but for people who have lived in too sterile conditions and have already developed severe enzymatic insufficiency it may be helpful to supplement with larger amounts of prebiotic ingesta, along with consuming intestines, pancreas, liver, other glands over a period of time in order to establish an optimal gut microbiome.

Im not advocating eating large amounts of fecal matter, and personally will remove the manure from the lower intestines,  and discard most of the liquid ingesta....but I do not wash the intestines, preferring to consume at least some of the enzymatic gooey residue which coats the inside of the digestive tract. These raw probiotic and prebiotic elements must have been a part of our evolutionary diet in some way, and are largely missing from modern versions of the paleo diet.
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 11:26:13 pm »
You're right, of course. So, presumably, even in those times when I was experimenting and eating mainly high-meat, it wasn't really enough.Hmm, my one experience with intestines was with cooked tripe in the dark days before I went rawpalaeo, it was the most disgusting dish I ever ate at the time...  Well, I guess I need to somehow persuade a hunter to give me a whole whole, raw wild game carcass, preferably pre-cut and with the organs in separate vacuum-packs.
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Offline surfsteve

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 12:30:11 am »
I love cooked tripe. It is said it takes on the flavor of the spices you use to prepare it so maybe that is why you didn't like it. I've also eaten tons of raw tripe in my smoothies. Worn out a lot of blenders and food processors grinding it up...

I've read that taking digestive enzymes causes your body to stop producing them but that the same is not true with betaine HCL.

From what I've read Betaine HCL is a proven way to get stomach acids back to normal. It's been a while since I read about it but as I recall the stomach does not store HCL. It makes it on demand as it's needed by secreting two substances that when combined make the acid. I think it was hydrogen and chloride but don't quote me on that. When betaine HCL is ingested the acid PH only lasts for a few minutes and then the PH goes back to normal.

It makes sense that taking HCL would stop your body from making it's own HCL but from what I've read this is not the case. I've read claims the HCL is recycled. I suspect that the betaine HCL is quickly broken down into it's components needed to make the acid and stored to be used later when the HCL is needed. Many of the links I have posted say that supplementing with betaine HCL only needs to be done occasionally and that once the stomach acid is normal you can stop taking it, at least for a while, till whatever is causing you to have low stomach acid reoccurs.

In conclusion: If your stomach acid is perfect you don't need to worry about taking betaine HCL but I think it's a nice thing to have on hand and I bought a whole kilogram for under twenty dollars. There are other things that taking betaine is good for. It was originally a waste product left over from the sugar industry when you take out all the stuff that's good for you out of sugar beets and are left with nothing but cancer causing sugar. When farmers started feeding it to their live stock it put more meat on their bones with less feed and also kept them from getting sick.  The acidity of apple cider vinegar has a pH of 5. It takes less than a gram of betaine HCL in 3 oz of water to give you a pH of 1. So in a way it's sort of an apple cider vinegar on steroids. Seems to be doing me some good. Not just for digestion but I've noticed a considerable reduction in aches and pains and my skin has cleared up super fast. Time will tell if it's going to be something I will keep taking or relegate it to the dust bin with all the other supplements I tried and stopped taking. I tried the TMG form of betaine and had to stop taking it because it gave me horribly bad breath. Made me feel good though and tasted great. This stuff tastes like Sh*t but actually improves the smell of my breath instead of making my breath smell like all the toxins from my body are leaving through it.

Offline surfsteve

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 12:43:50 am »
Also. It's funny that you guys are talking about restoring gut microbes. If you look back at the thread of stomach acids, humans have one of the strongest acids, similar to buzzards and it is thought that the acids are so strong so as to kill pathogens that cause you to get sick. Gut microbes are said to be important but I think maybe the stomach is designed to kill everything and then recolonize the ones that are beneficial after the acid is neutralized before entering the intestines. (Kill them all and let god sort 'em out!) We aren't cows that have a low concentration of stomach acid and depend on microbes to digest our food. For all we know we don't need that many microbes because we were designed to be scavengers and all this talk of them is way overblown.

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2018, 12:53:07 am »
Also. It's funny that you guys are talking about restoring gut microbes. If you look back at the thread of stomach acids, humans have one of the strongest acids, similar to buzzards and it is thought that the acids are so strong so as to kill pathogens that cause you to get sick. Gut microbes are said to be important but I think maybe the stomach is designed to kill everything and then recolonize the ones that are beneficial after the acid is neutralized before entering the intestines. (Kill them all and let god sort 'em out!) We aren't cows that have a low concentration of stomach acid and depend on microbes to digest our food. For all we know we don't need that many microbes because we were designed to be scavengers and all this talk of them is way overblown.
I heavily disagree.  I noticed a massive difference between when I switched from raw, fresh meats(well up to 3 days from the fridge) to genuine high-meats. The way I see it, the human stomach does indeed wipe out 99% of bacteria in the food coming in, BUT, when one eats raw, aged meats, such as "high-meat", the sheer amount of extra bacteria coming in is enough to avoid being mostly wiped out, so that it adds to the intestinal flora. I am considering seriously doing high-meat for a third of the time from now on, just to see the results.
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Offline surfsteve

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2018, 01:23:47 am »
Hmm. Maybe it's not the microbes themselves but the fact that the food is broken down by them and predigested that makes the difference. Who knows? I read all the time of you complaining of digestive problems and that all kinds of foods give you problems and make you puke so it is possible that you are on the wrong track and do indeed have weak stomach acids. Why not do both? Work on making your stomach acids stronger and taking in more microbes... Maybe it's not the microbes themselves that are so good for you; but instead substances that they are producing, as all kinds of vitamins are produced by them. Especially b-12. Seems like I read that b-12 is one of the things needed in order for your body to make it's own acid. I'm thinking maybe acid could also be needed to kick start your body into making it's own acid. Sort of like the saying “it takes money to make money” only substituting acid for money... Obviously the saying isn't necessarily true either way as a person can start out with nothing and become rich and then there's the fact that most people that win the lottery wind up broke in a few years. So I think it's important for us to find a way to make stomach acid on our own, but winning the stomach acid lottery would probably help and maybe betaine, because it is so cheap and easy to come by is a way to rig that lottery... at least till that happens.

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2018, 03:24:44 am »
Maybe I should make things clearer:-  For c. 13 years+ before I went rawpaleo, I would get awful, very painful stomach-aches after eating any cooked animal food. Never, though, after I went rawpalaeo without raw dairy. When I tried high-meat after c. 3 years, after overcoming  stupid hysteria over raw, aged meats,  it made a huge difference thereon.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 11:13:36 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2018, 11:04:10 am »
I love cooked tripe. It is said it takes on the flavor of the spices you use to prepare it so maybe that is why you didn't like it. I've also eaten tons of raw tripe in my smoothies. Worn out a lot of blenders and food processors grinding it up...

Is the raw tripe you use fully washed?

My stomach smoothies contain unwashed tripe along with the intestines which also contain digestive juices....tripe sold at the market is typically washed to the point of sterility and does not contain the living bacteria and enzymes that raw unwashed guts contain.

The bacterial content is just one factor involved in priming the gut for optimal digestion, there are also valuable enzymes contained within the inner liner of unwashed intestines, as well as prebiotic fiber in the intestinal juices. Though most of the living soup of raw consumed animal guts gets broken down by the stomach acids, some of its living essence passes through to the lower intestines. There are some living bacteria, prebiotic fiber and enzymatic co-factors that make it through....The combination of these elements act as a highly nutritive substrate while at the same time inoculating the lower intestines with the micro flora necessary for better synthesis vitamins, enzymes and enteric neurotransmitters.
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Offline surfsteve

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2018, 12:33:11 am »
For Sabertooth: the tripe I eat is washed from the grocery store. I'm curious. If the stomach acid is strong enough to kill any pathogens in the food I eat, How are they supposed to make it into my large intestine? I've got a feeling that people may be wrong when it comes to that and that maybe eating the bacteria for their nutrition is more important than if they survive digestion and colonize in the gut. At least that would be true of people with strong stomach acids. Seems like digestion in the stomach is the body's first line of defense for germs and viruses. Maybe it's the substances that the microbes make that are to blame for all their profound effects and not so much the microbes themselves. Let the microbes enter the colon through the other end or some other way and colonize where they are supposed to be! I don't need microbes in my stomach and small intestinal bacteria overgrowth seems to be a major problem these days. Not to mention that foods like yogurt can be a major source of inflammation...

Getting back to Betaine HCL; so far it has been a miracle for me. Even a whole tablespoon mixed in a glass of water doesn't seem to bother me. Yet I'm sure if I drank a glass of apple cider vinegar I would be seriously hurting from it. The apple cider vinegar has a PH of 5 but a tablespoon of Betaine HCL in a glass of water has a PH of around 1 and doesn't bother me, only giving me a slightly warm feeling which I don't mind.

I just can't figure out how I am able to tolerate that much acid. In fact I seem to thrive on it.

PH of 5 is the same PH as vinegar
PH of 4 is ten times more acid than 5
PH of 3 is 100 times more acid than 5
PH of 2 is 1000 times more acid than 5
PH of 1 is 10,000 times more acid than 5, or the PH of vinegar!

That is seriously acid!

It must not be the amount of acid, but the type of acid, as far as tolerating it goes. Vinegar is a different type of acid than stomach acid but Betaine HCL is the exact same kind.

I've read that calcium is used by the pancreas to neutralize the acid in your stomach. Otherwise it would burn a hole in your intestines. I'm thinking that the aches and pains I had before I started taking betaine HCL were from too much calcium built up where it didn't belong and that my body used that excess calcium in places it didn't belong to buffer all the excess HCL. Seems like once it is all used up that my body could take calcium from my bones and in places it belongs! Hopefully I'll be able to tell when I've reached that point. I suppose I could just start taking extra calcium but that sounds like a stupid idea and at that point it just makes sense to cut down on the HCL instead. I been taking up to 3 tablespoons a day! I still have one small area in my back that's been hurting ever since I was a kid. It's going away too! Once that's gone I intend to cut way back on the HCL. 

Used to be that when I woke up my back would hurt till I got to moving around but that is no longer the case. Besides aches and pains being almost totally gone I've noticed a lot of other remarkable health benefits from taking it. The tartar on my teeth is gone. The dark circles under my eyes in my profile pic are virtually gone too. My skin has cleared up immensely. I've also started taking loads of collagen for that too; which I could never take before, because whenever I did I would get a cold and bad cold sores, presumably from all the arginine. Viruses feed on arginine. I guess the trick is for the body to use  the arginine up before the viruses get their chance to use and take hold. Arginine is good for the body but it is also good for viruses so I think I just need to make sure that my body uses it all up first and starves them out.

As I mentioned before, lately I started taking collagen again. I thought all the tripe I was eating would be enough but the fact that when you cook tripe and let it cool and it doesn't gell up leads me to believe that tripe doesn't contain as much collagen as I thought it did. The collagen peptides have made a huge difference to my skin and people I haven't seen since around the time my profile pic was taken have been commenting on how young I look. I noticed when I first started taking it a couple weeks ago that I had white lines on my face where wrinkles had been that hadn't yet gotten a chance to become tanned.

I quit taking collagen a few years ago because it was giving me serious cold sores from all the arginine. Unfortunately I bought a whole mess of it that I've been storing, never intending to use, till now! The side effects from taking collagen seem to be totally gone since I started taking HCL. At first I tried taking monolauren along with the collagen to avoid colds and cold sores. And it actually worked pretty good. Then I thought about it and felt, that maybe I wasn't digesting all the protein from the collagen and all the tons of meat I eat and that it would be a good idea to take something to help with that.

I read that collagen does not contain any tryptophan and some people even recommended that tryptophan be taken along with collagen. But then I read how much tryptophan is in meat and I'm getting around 3000% or the RDA so I really don't need anymore. People that are deficient of tryptophan don't get the raw materials to make serotonin during the day or melatonin at night. Maybe that is why vegans are so hostile and cranky! Makes sense to me!

 I ordered the betaine HCL on a whim for my digestion. I had no idea that so many other health problems would be eliminated before I started taking it; but it makes sense. Even the best diet is only as good as your digestion. Fixing my digestion (I didn't even know there was anything wrong with it.) has fixed a whole bunch of other things that I had no idea were even related to it.

 

Offline Xisca

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2018, 03:16:35 am »
Good topic, even what was off topic!

Where did you get your betaine hcl? If i understand, you got it pure and in powder? What brand?

I was also looking for enzymes, but I find only plant ones and no bile!

I have difficulties to eat enough and I need regularly to come back to those 2 products.

i have some elements that were not mentionned: i did a hair analysis, and they told me to take hcl because I have low Phosphorus! They say it is a consequence of low acid, and thus bad protein breakdown and you do not get your correct amonos even with a lot of meat... which lower your P even more! So we need this help to go out of the circle.

I also need gelatine, and I know it is not easy to digest. It is necessary to keep more water in the body.

I have some whole animals as I raise guinea pigs. I eat the skin of course, and the rest. I am fed up with cleaning so small guts, so I dont bother anymore, but if you feed parsley and fennel before killing... you have a good stomach to eat! This I was cooking. I eat raw what I can and then boild the rest with the bones and skin.

I hesitate about your idea of raw gut... after all they are herbivores, so not the same enzymes... I also remove the gall bladder, and also hesitate... because i am sure it can be full of toxin, as the bile is also meant to eliminate toxins from the body... it is quite strange they have a gall bladder, as they do not eat any fat...

Also, parasite risk with raw guts. After all, if we lack some stomach acid... and also, I have poop some dead worms that were looking too much like fly worms! i wonder if it is possible for those eggs to stay alive and hatch inside us, and then go out because of course they are not meant to live there... Anyway, that would mean they have escaped from my stomach acid and then my bile and pancreatic alkalis! Tough guys!

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2018, 12:49:19 pm »
There is a lot to digest here, and it may be true that bacteria supplementation is only a minor factor, and in and of itself may not provide much help for those with serious digestive insufficiency.   

There is a certain level of complexity when figuring out these digestive conditions, which makes it difficult to isolate a single factor as more important than another....the connections are not often easy to see...

The bacterial produced substances that are consumed directly as well as produced from within the bowls are important for digestion, and in a healthy gut these microbial factors work synergistically with the inner (gut brain/glandular/enzymatic system complex) to maintain homeostasis, amidst the constant environmental flux.

These systems are coordinated by the enteric nervous system which receives from and sends signals to the brain, glands, and organs. Any imbalance or insufficiency in one of these areas will affect the balance or sufficiency of the other areas. I personally testify to having suffered digestive insufficiency for a number of years before discovering this diet and believe that there were a number of factors involved which most people may not have consider as contributing to poor digestion.

I had a congested liver along with insufficient pancreatic enzymes. The liver and pancreas work together to produce vital enzymes needed for optimal digestion and metabolism and if there are problems with one then it usually affects the other. My pancreas wasnt producing enough insulin or digestive enzymes needed to break down carbs. Eating whole raw pancreas is about the best digestive supplement I have ever tried...but one should try not to over do it, the first time i ate an entire pancreas, I ended up having a hypoglycemic episode from the insulin boost...eventually my pancreas healed and my liver became more efficient at converting protein to glucose so that my blood sugar fluctuations and digestion issues were resolved.

The specific causes for damaged glands and the inability to produce adequate digestive enzymes would vary from person to person..... from my experience even the most esteemed experts in the field are limited to obtuse generalizations and blind speculation in most cases. I was toxic and deficient for years, from a number of factors such as poor food choices, food intolerance, environmental toxins, and mineral deficiencies. My magnesium, and trace minerals were low(and adequate magnesium along with other minerals are essential for enzymatic production) Working as a commercial electrician i was also exposed to a lot of toxic crap and my aluminum levels were off the charts(aluminum, and other toxic metals work to inhibit enzyme production)

Regardless of such speculations on specific causes, I have taken a strong stance against using long term supplementations, while advocating whole raw foods, combined with lifestyle and environmental purification as the primary source of healing. In regards to Betaine supplementation I would warn that although one may feel short term benefits, if the true underlying causes of enzymatic insufficiency are not addressed, then it may only be a crutch that will in the long term prevent true healing.

Just as when diabetics begin to supplement with insulin the pancreatic cells begin producing less insulin in response, perhaps when someone with digestive enzyme insufficiency takes acid supplements, long term, it would inhibit the body's innate feedback system needed to produce adequate enzymes internally.

Holistic whole animal raw paleo on the other hand if done in the hardcore fashion I advocate, will nourish the damaged glands and organs, giving the body the necessary raw materials to regenerate itself at a cellular level. Eliminating any problem foods or environmental issues, while Regularly consuming whole animals...including digestive juices, bile, liver pancreas, thyroid, intestines, ganglia, blood, body fats,etc.  This path may be considered extreme, and glandular regeneration may take much longer than many are willing to commit to...but for me the results have been worth it.
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Offline Xisca

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2018, 04:04:05 pm »
I mostly agree but with this...
Quote
Just as when diabetics begin to supplement with insulin the pancreatic cells begin producing less insulin in response, perhaps when someone with digestive enzyme insufficiency takes acid supplements, long term, it would inhibit the body's innate feedback system needed to produce adequate enzymes internally.
Taking the HCl breaks a circle, that is hwy it works, and no, it does not stop our production, and even it is the reverse.

Low acid, low protein assimilation. low amino acids level will lower you phosphorus and will lower your acid production.
Also another circle is that when you have low stomach acid, you have less protection against bacterias, nd they can start to debilitate your stomach lining, thus you will tolerate lessacid! so here is the use of aloe, protection and repair.

Also the other cycle is that low acid will mean not enough signal sent to pancreas and liver, so less alakli will be sent to the gut, and with no alternance between acid first and alkali second, bacterias and other fungi and parasite will be very happy!

Really, the first goal is to have a good stomach and good acid, or else the rest of the chain cannot work properly.

Offline Xisca

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 04:06:38 pm »
Do you mean you can eat the gall bladder of any animal, for getting bile?

And you are sure there is no parasitic risk with raw intestine?

I eat all glands from my guinea pigs, they are small but it is for sure balanced with the amount of meat I eat! There is no other way for getting adrenals thyroid and pancreas than locating your animals, as they do not sell glands!

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2018, 05:20:39 am »
Taking the HCl breaks a circle, that is hwy it works, and no, it does not stop our production, and even it is the reverse.


I'm open to any new evidence, but as of now I haven't heard any testimony from people who have permanently reversed enzymatic insufficiency by supplemental acid consumption.

I will admit that the subject of using digestive aids in conjunction with raw meat is still uncharted territory, and it seems feasible that in some instances supplemental acids may catalyze the rejuvenation of the glands and organs involved in optimal digestion and metabolism, but until there are more people who can vouch for its efficacy I will remain cautious in regards to recommending Betaine.


Really, the first goal is to have a good stomach and good acid, or else the rest of the chain cannot work properly.

I dont view these issues as there being a chain of causality which specific problems can be addressed in a linear fashion with specific solutions. Instead biological operations are better described as an integral web of mutually arising conditions, rather than a chain of cause and effect.

From a Mechanical model of the world perspective it would seem reasonable to suggest for people who lack adequate digestive acids to simply add in extra supplemental acids to the diet....but the organic model of the world perspective understands these processes to be much more complicated, and dependant upon the interconnected web of mutually dependant processes.

On some rudimentary level there may be some success by taking the supplemental approach... just like when farmers add nitrogen and minerals to poor soil in order to improve the growth of plants, there can be noticeable improvements compared to doing absolutely nothing, but these improvements are only temporary measures which are not nearly as effective or sustainable in the long term as would be using organic living compost.

In my opinion using artificial supplemental stomach acid aids without insuring the being is consuming adequate levels of balanced and living food substance, will not provide the same cellular level of regenerative nourishment as would be consuming foods which contain all the raw living enzymes needed for the optimal process of life. Eating washed cooked tripe will not work, the raw and alive bacteria, glands organs and enzymes must be consumed together for full effect.

Do you mean you can eat the gall bladder of any animal, for getting bile?

And you are sure there is no parasitic risk with raw intestine?

I eat all glands from my guinea pigs, they are small but it is for sure balanced with the amount of meat I eat! There is no other way for getting adrenals thyroid and pancreas than locating your animals, as they do not sell glands!


I do not recommend just eating any part of any animal, nor do I guarantee that there are no parasite risk. I usually only eat the raw guts from ruminants....because their stomachs are so different from our own, the kind of worms that infect sheep, goats, deer, and cows do not infect humans....

It may be possible in freak instances when animals are raised in filth along with other sick and infected animals for humans to catch something, especially when eating non ruminants like pigs or horses, but as long as you are sourcing healthy animals it shouldn't be an issue.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 10:03:37 am by sabertooth »
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Offline surfsteve

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2018, 11:03:28 pm »
To Xixca: I get my betaine HCL from Amazon. They sell Bulk Supplements brand which only costs 20 dollars a kilogram. One of the cheapest supplements you will ever find! It may be that the sweetest things in life are free, but the most acid ones are very cheap and not far behind!

Unlike hormone replacement therapy which atrophies the glands that are supposed to be producing them or even taking digestive enzymes which do the same thing, I read that HCL is recycled. The stomach does not store HCL, it makes it on demand. I agree that if you could get plenty of the raw materials to make all the HCL you need it would be great though I don't even know what to eat to make your own HCL besides HCL. Seems like in prehistoric times the planet was much more acid and everything smelled like sulfur though this could just be from watching to many videos.

I've read acid studies claiming taking HCL raises the acid in your stomach for only between 30 and 70 minutes max. I don't think it even matters whether food is present or not. When I read testimonials people claim they can go off it for a week or two but then they need to start taking it again. So yeah I guess it is recycled but they aren't consuming what they need to make enough of it on their own. I am interested in how to do that but haven't learned how. Maybe it could be diet related or maybe something environmental that could be missing and only existed in prehistoric times. I wish I knew!

I also wanted to tell Xisca that raw pancreas is easy to come by but it is not sold under the name pancreas. It goes by the name of SWEETBREADS. Neck sweetbreads are the thymus gland, the one responsible for youth and the immune system; eating them is supposed to build your immune system back up and make you young again. I eat tons of them! BELLY SWEETBREADS are the pancreas, and what you are after. My butcher use to sell them but has only been getting neck sweetbreads which I feel are much more beneficial and are cheaper too. I read somewhere that when you buy beef brains the pituitary is also included. Also for a long time I've suspected that when you buy kidney the adrenal's are attached to them because when I consume raw kidney I feel a rush like I've gotten a shot of adrenalin. Perhaps someone here might know enough to confirm this.


Offline Xisca

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Re: Betaine for working out and for weak stomach acid
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2018, 06:34:05 am »
Thanks Steve! To make your own HCl, you need Cl, thus salt. Then you need H! But more than anything else, you need to be in parasympathetic state, not in sympathetic activation.

If you have stomach lining problem, then take aloe vera.

At the moment I eat whole guinea pigs, but I need to cook the bones with the rest of meat and also the skin. I remove hairs...
So I have some glands.... here I cannot get all you named, they do not sell it! i will try to source people killing their own pigs or goat, because I know for example in baby goat season that they throw the heads away!