Author Topic: Tribal hierachy  (Read 21455 times)

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Offline Dorothy

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Tribal hierachy
« on: July 29, 2011, 10:13:53 am »
Is there some place where there's a list of what the color of the stars and the labels that are above members names mean?

I'm very sad that I am no longer an egg thief, because that label described me the best. When I get to shaman could I just stop there? I mean, I'm not much of hunter. Forager, egg thief, gatherer or a fisherwoman maybe but keep me away from being a mammoth hunter please - sounds way too scary. But - if I eventually get to shaman could I just stop there? That fits me almost as well as egg thief. I'm not much for being a chief any time in the future either because they are often the first to die or be killed in a skirmish.  :o

Of course this is all great fun - but I do get the sense that those stars and labels are supposed to mean something and tell me who's alpha and beta etc so that I can properly roll over and show how submissive I am so I don't get hurt. If there's no place where all the roles and colors are listed in hierarchial order, would someone like to make such a list so that all us low down on the totem pole can socially negotiate more safely the structure of the tribe?

Deep thanks to the elders and leaders for your guidance. 

Offline RawZi

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 05:26:01 pm »
Forager, egg thief, gatherer or a fisherwoman maybe but keep me away from being a mammoth hunter please - sounds way too scary ...

Of course this is all great fun - but I do get the sense that those stars and labels are supposed to mean something and tell me who's alpha and beta etc so that I can properly roll over and show how submissive I am so I don't get hurt ... 

    I apologize if my stars sound scary.  Mostly I think the titles just mean how many posts each member has made here.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2011, 06:39:50 am »
Ohhhhh. Just numbers. Then your stars just stopped being so scary!  :D  Now I know that I don't really have to trap or hunt anything.

Thanks Zi.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2011, 06:54:42 am »
Ohhhhh. Just numbers. Then your stars just stopped being so scary!  :D  Now I know that I don't really have to trap or hunt anything.

Thanks Zi.

    Nope you don't.  You can buy the meat wherever great quality raw meat is sold.  You could slaughter one of your chickens occasionally in the future, don't have to.  You can trade with neighbors if they slaughter on their own family farm, you give them eggs or herbs or worms or whatever.  No hard and fast rules that I know of like that.  Quite a number here don't set traps in the woods (nor mouse traps) nor do quite a number hunt, I haven't myself yet, so obviously ... Thanks for the respectful question though. :)
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 08:21:01 am »
One of the last remaining rules of the house is that no one eats a species that is a member of the family - so no one gets to eat chickens here. Good thing I don't live on a farm right? As it is we are already an old age home for hens and dogs.

I wish things were easier in terms of trading here. People just don't seem to do it when it comes to food. I had the most amazing raw fermented butter I wanted to trade and could barely give it away. Weird. Now I wish I had kept it. Little did I know that in the summer the fat content of milk goes through the floor.  :'(

But hey - someone told me just today that the store we shop at just started to carry grass-fed. So, I think we'll be ok.  ;)


Offline RawZi

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 08:31:34 am »
One of the last remaining rules of the house is that no one eats a species that is a member of the family - so no one gets to eat chickens here. ...

But hey - someone told me just today that the store we shop at just started to carry grass-fed. So, I think we'll be ok.  ;)

    Yes, fat content varies depending on the sun and weather and age of the calves etc, just like human milk I gather.  Are you sure you need as much fat in summer?  Maybe instead of butter in Summer you can drink the milk straight.

    I've never eaten a pet either, except I guess some chicken from my babysitter when I was a toddler.  You need some hunter neighbors I think!  Hey, maybe I'm not meant to hunt with experienced hunters, as it's never happened yet.  If you ever want to bumble around hunting with someone who has no idea how, let me know. 

    I tried grass fed butter from the store.  I will not do that one myself again, sorry, yeck.  Took me a long time to heal from that one.  Maybe your store has raw or your body is less reactive.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 08:49:40 am »
One of the last remaining rules of the house is that no one eats a species that is a member of the family - so no one gets to eat chickens here.
Interestingly, at least some hunter-gatherer peoples apparently have an opposite sort of view. I have seen some say that they feel closest to the animals they eat and that they believe the animals live on in them. In a way they become those animals. Thus the Lakota are sometimes called the buffalo people and I have seen them refer to the buffalo as relatives. In other words, by eating the animals a lot, the animals become part of their family. There's also the broader Lakota view that "we are all related," meaning all the plants and animals and even the earth.

Another example was a scientist reporting that the zhut-/wasi African Bushmen become one with the animal they hunt and feel the pain when they spear it or shoot it with an arrow. Just yesterday I saw a video of an Inuit man who said his father said that when he killed his first whale he felt that he died with it and then came back to life.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 11:21:09 am »
Zi - raw milk is illegal to sell in stores in Texas. I buy milk once a month and make my own fermented quark cheese, butter and whey. I cannot drink even the great quality milk I get raw. I have to ferment the dairy to make it digestible and healthy for us. The butter I make is nothing like anything you can buy in any store anywhere. It's amazing stuff. My desire for butter flows, but Brian always likes to have pretty much the same and is missing having none right now - as am I.   :(

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 11:40:31 am »
Oh Phil - I am not nearly that flexible. Even if I become closer to family members by killing them and eating them - I am just not capable. I'm far from saying that how I feel is "right" or "good". I'm just never going to be able to kill and eat the animals I feel so connected to and I'm never going to be able to hunt. The only way that I would do it is if my husband or pets were starving. I for myself would not kill or eat a chicken and for myself I would not kill a cow or deer etc. To feed myself I would steal eggs, kill bugs, fish and milk an animal and take honey from bees. That much I know I would do for myself. Killing anything higher up on the food chain than a fish (and that might not be easy) is not for me. I guess I can't honestly say what I would do until I was actually starving, but brain damage for instance (what someone here said that vegetarians get) for me wouldn't be a reason to eat higher up on the food chain. If that sounds crazy - maybe it's because I'm already brain damaged?  l) Preventing brain damage for someone I love though - that's a different thing for me. I'm just incredibly grateful that I don't have to hunt or kill. I consider that one of the gifts of my life.

Again, I would surely not say that others should not hunt for their food and how the real people live with the natural world impresses me. I'm just either out of touch or just different. I seem to fit vegetarianism very well but somehow never got the memo that I was supposed to think everyone else - or anyone else for that matter - should also be one. I'm willing to go out of that comfort zone for those I love, but not for myself.

Offline KD

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 12:19:22 pm »
I guess I can't honestly say what I would do until I was actually starving, but brain damage for instance (what someone here said that vegetarians get) for me wouldn't be a reason to eat higher up on the food chain. If that sounds crazy - maybe it's because I'm already brain damaged?  l) Preventing brain damage for someone I love though - that's a different thing for me. I'm just incredibly grateful that I don't have to hunt or kill. I consider that one of the gifts of my life.


Noble and honest - brain damaged yes - but honest :)

Its likely true that when it came down to it many could not kill an animal starring them in the face. Domestic animals being harder for a number of reasons. Such is the way of things I suppose...This is not to say that humans (vegans and carnivores alike) arn't somehow overprivileged from this mundane killing that to a person in nature would be normal - due more to systems of lock-and-key civilization and particularly modern distribution than to any kind of intrinsic empathy or spiritual advancement IMO. DaVinci might have been big on moving up from the savages....but what does this have to do with what is healthy?

as per the brain thing...It reminds me of an anecdote from another forum.

Clearly on many kinds of diets (even blatantly awful ones lacking food) we can sustain some sense of living, but as conscious people we must accept the consequences on our health. I have friends that are vegans and they don't do so thinking they are eating the healthiest diet on the planet, so I think that is fine (provided they don't reproduce). As for having optimal functioning if we accept that we won't have x cause of y..then that is fine..but if we fool ourselves into thinking that z replaces x we are in the realm of self-destruction for the sake of some other (y) ideology and to me that ironically goes against what I believe to be human beings innate spirituality and plan to live our their full expression.

anyway I digress...I got in this 'discussion' with a likely 18 year old (raw) vegan on another forum (these folks are always like 18)
and he said something which I thought was pretty strange..it was like "well I wouldn't eat meat if it made me the healthiest person in the world" and I thought to myself..well how gracious of you..you'd give up superhuman abilities for the welfare of animals...how about if you wern't your over-privileged 18 year old body or your parents had no sense and fed you some wackjob diet..and your body needed animal food or it would shortly cease to exist or you had to live your entire life as some kind of invalid.  ???

of course they don't believe animal food does that shit anyway...


I think its pretty important for people to come to terms with killing and to actually be ok at least with doing so themselves if not doing it regularly...HOWEVER...EVERYONE deserves the right to pursue the foods that will give and restore health. Its too bad that our overpopulation and structure of civilization requires us to pen animals thereby making the process fairly skewed and different degrees of wrong. BTW Just talking around this topic...I certainly respect your considered viewpoint.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 12:23:37 pm »
- raw milk is illegal to sell in stores in Texas. I buy milk once a month and make my own fermented quark cheese, butter and whey. I cannot drink even the great quality milk I get raw. I have to ferment the dairy to make it digestible and healthy for us.

    The dairy is illegal here too.  We make our own butter, and yes, it too tastes so much better than store bought, depending on the source of the milk.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2011, 12:41:30 pm »
Oh Phil - I am not nearly that flexible.
Yes, I know. It's just interesting how opposite those common modern views are from the traditional and it's fascinating that it's possible to view things in an opposite way--with eating animal being seen as a communion rather than murder (and this concept of communion carried on into modern Roman Catholicism, but bread and wine replaced the traditional lamb or bird--yet the bread and wine are supposed to represent human flesh and blood--which goes back to another ancient practice among some peoples of eating a little of one's departed relatives so that they might live on in you). How much we've changed. Another factor is that men traditionally handled the hunting, killing and initial butchering of large animals, though women might do some of the butchering and cooking of the larger animals. Depending on the habitat and the culture, HG women might also hunt and kill small game like rabbits, so a woman might be expected to kill fowl like chickens (if chickens had been present in Africa or the heart of Eurasia (they apparently come from a tropical South and Southeast Asia--areas foreign to my direct ancestors going all the way back to the dawn of humanity).

In later times, with the advent of farming, farmers wives would probably generally have been expected to be willing to kill and butcher chickens. My grandparents on my mother's side were farmers and they never spoke of anyone, including females, being queasy about killing and butchering animals. It probably wasn't their favorite task but there seemed to be much less squeamishness about it among farmers. I think it's the urbanization of humans and the development of sanitized supermarkets, plus recent "vegetarian" Hindu/Buddhist influence on the West, when it comes to red meats (Tibetan Buddhists are not vegetarian, however), that has separated us from the process and made it seem strange.

Given that the meat, organs and fat of animals are beneficial to people's health, those who believe in a creator and think that meat eating is sinful must believe that the Creator made a badly mixed-up universe with nature as inherently sinful and counterproductive. It seems more likely that if there is a Creator, he must have designed for meat to be eaten, and that is what the Bible says. It's only when people have other non-Biblical religious and ethical views like those of Hinduism that meat eating becomes a problem. I take a naturalistic view myself, in which it all makes sense and there's no contradiction, because nature is nature and doesn't have to be molded to fit a human preconception.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 12:57:02 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2011, 11:46:27 pm »
I think - or at least I hope - KD that I am one of the lucky ones that has the feelings that I do towards animals as I have been one of the healthiest people I know since I changed over to a whole foods diet so many decades ago. Veganism and vegetarianism have seemed to fit me. I never get colds or flus and I usually am stronger and have more vitality than the young people around me. I'm healthier now that I was 35 and more years ago. I get tired of hiring younger people to work for me just to be amazed at how sick, tired and sluggish they are.

As a logical person I know that I cannot say that a diet that I have not tried would not make me feel even better. I cannot say that eating raw animal meat and fat wouldn't make me into a superhero. That, I will find out. I do know that cooked meats would not do that. I'm much better off without them.

I do admit that just recently finally having contact with other raw foodists for the first time in a forum, in the raw vegan community I saw such intense denial that I now am scouring myself for it. I think the big difference is that there are now people evangelizing against fat and protein - which was and still is a marvel to me. Raw foods just used to - don't cook anything - and that's it.

When I seem to feel so much better than everyone else around me, it's difficult to judge the diet that I have been on harshly - but what I would love to do is put myself in the midst of raw paleos and see how I seem to myself then in comparison. I guess that's part of why I am here. On forums of raw vegans I noticed so many that were giving away that they were getting manic, getting sick, their posts got less logical and more aggressive and less balanced over time. Not all of them - but enough that I saw a pattern - and it shocked me - because it didn't seem to match up to my experience - unless of course I also am in denial.  ;)

The good thing about being human and in society is that we DO have the ability to get food without having to go out and find it or kill it........ and it's the bad thing too........ and it is a concern of mine that it might soon be close to impossible to get non-irradiated raw food from the food production system in this country of any quality at all for much longer.

Soon, anyone who wants to eat healthfully of any kind might have to go back into producing or finding their own food - whether they want to or not. Then all us privileged gentle folk would be truly face to face with what we would and would not do.

Offline KD

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 02:39:28 am »
I think - or at least I hope - KD that I am one of the lucky ones that has the feelings that I do towards animals as I have been one of the healthiest people I know since I changed over to a whole foods diet so many decades ago. Veganism and vegetarianism have seemed to fit me. I never get colds or flus and I usually am stronger and have more vitality than the young people around me. I'm healthier now that I was 35 and more years ago. I get tired of hiring younger people to work for me just to be amazed at how sick, tired and sluggish they are. [...]


Well perhaps. Even Aajonus says some rare people can do ok on proper vegetarian diets and certainly there are examples of people that can live a normal lifespan doing so and eating cooked foods..often even skirting some health problems common in the west. Its usually difficult to do such diets as you say emphasizing fat and protein for a variety of reasons and there are often believed problems with many of these proteins and fats in plants that might become apparent in viewing this forum. Of course no one knows exactly the formula for health..and in particular what is applicable for a modern person. I agree that one can't by completely by default claim a meat diet is automatically superior even with anthropological evidence. There are people doing such fat/protein veg raw diets and in my assessment they are usually more balanced and healthier than high sugar raw diets but I guess my whole point was this does not mean the logic in choosing that boils down completely to "less good" than something possibly more sound.

Unfortunately - although you are not a 18 year old boy - the logic you are using is still a little skewed in the above way. It really isn't an issue of say picking something that is "less good" but based even in the very study that you have done...is at best avoiding crisis so far or any clearly demarcated problems of such.

When you are talking about noticing a need to be grounded, too 'sattvic' etc..this indeed is some level of mania or some other kind of burning chi/nitro/excitotoxins...take your pick it ain't good. Humans seem to have a huge capacity to function that way...but at a certain point there is some breakdown or extinguishing. Often the mental component - for me - is also the biggest decipherable difference in diet. For me I don't see it merely as I choose to do this or be less grounded/have highs and lows/irritability as a superior option but that the other way really is not a reasonable option that is fair to me and my environment - given the option so to speak. Certainly not one that is worth sacrificing for ideals....That was more or less what i was saying.

I guess to make it more clear...if I could have 'normal' health without eating animal foods..I would certainly snatch that up in a second and eat soy meat over whatever above and beyond I might have on this diet or could obtain in the future over others' approaches..

if that makes more sense

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 03:24:22 am »
Yes, it makes sense KD. To be more clear - as a cooked vegan and vegetarian I had way ABOVE average health with none of the sattvic feelings. It was only being on exclusively raw vegan for half a year or so would those feelings arise - but up to that point where the energy became what I felt to be unbalanced I felt more than above average - I felt truly amazing.

Here's the thing KD, the big problem as I see it is that meat in our society is very difficult to get in a healthy form. For me, it was better to not eat animal foods when the animal foods were cooked and of terrible quality. The meat that I knew about and had available to me was only the feed lot, hormoned, antibioticed. gmo, genetically modified kind.... and never did I even guess that meat COULD be eaten raw. Raw seems to be a key factor for me with any food, which makes me wonder if it is going to be the same thing with meat.

It is the taboos regarding foods in our society that is the problem as far as I see it. The irrational fear. All I could get to (perhaps until now? We will see) is to at least stop the onslaught of damaging foods.

This is the FIRST time I have had good raw eggs, raw grass-fed fermented milk and grass-fed/pastured meats available and the first time I ever heard that these things could and should be eaten raw. I was all on my own eating all raw produce - but it was not taboo. See?

I did the best that I could with the information and resources I had and had superior health because of it. Now, I have new information and new resources to work with and it is going to be extremely interesting for me to see how it pans out. I would not be stepping out of my comfortable healthy peaceful zone for myself though if I didn't need to do figure things out for another - that is the honest truth. The comfort zone for me is plain old cooked whole-food vegan. I feel better than just about anyone I have ever met eating just that. If I wanted to be just really healthy, grounded, flexible, strong and have stamina and never get sick just for me and not try to explore the feelings of outrageous super health or help others -  I would simply eat cooked whole-food vegan.

One of the issues for me to work through, and hence a big part of this discussion, however, is the idea in my mind that one should not eat anything that one is not prepared to kill for oneself. I've been thinking about this. If I were in a natural human tribe - as a woman - I probably would not do the hunting! I would be foraging and preparing. I have been thinking lately that I might have been thinking in a way that is too based on our modern individualistic society framework. If I were eating my species-specific diet, my species procures its food in tribes, not as individuals. My diet perhaps should NOT be based only on what I would do for myself, but on what the tribe would do together. Just because men would be hunting, would that mean that they wouldn't eat the berries that the women picked too - even though they might prefer to hunt, or eat a larger amount of the meat?

What is right for an 18 year old guy - that I have not a clue about. I would assume that it partly would depend on the guy, what's available, their health history and how they perceived things. Same with people in general I suppose.

Anywho - these are where my thoughts are going a bit lately. It's good to talk to you about them. I enjoy your viewpoints and they make me think.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 03:50:11 am by Dorothy »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2011, 03:42:18 am »
Ah Phil - I just saw your post!

Of course, of course. I am who I am now only because I am living now and in the modern society that I do.

I told you how 20 years ago it was in a very deep meditation that I was instructed that I must stop eating meat. It did me personally a world (or two) of good.

If I were in a traditional society, I might not have any of the traditional roles - if I was allowed to use my abilities and eat in the ways that would support and expand them.

You might find this interesting. After that seared steak and that burger I ate all of the healing energy that normally goes to my hands stopped completely. I no longer could take away hubbie's pain with my hands! That would not do.

This is what I keep on thinking. What if the reason I was told to stop eating meat was because I could not get decent meat - animals that were not tortured and made into non-food and I never even heard of or could imagine eating meat that wasn't cooked at the time.

The meat I ate with hubbie was cooked. I tried to eat prosciutto di parma next and nearly killed myself (or that is the way it felt). My energy field stopped turning clockwise and started spinning counterclockwise. I could not stand and was in terrible  physical pain. But I have no idea how that meat was raised or killed or if it wasn't even irradiated or not.... and all that regular salt - I never eat that.

My next experiment is going to be to find grass-fed compassionately raised and killed animal meat and eat it fresh and raw and see what happens.

I make no claims that eating meat is inferior in any way. I just think that I could not fulfill my own destiny while eating what I had available at the time and perhaps individually - it might not be appropriate for me and my system.

Fish does not affect me. But........ if eating even the best raw meat has the same energetic affects on me I will try to take fish out of my diet as well again and see what it does to me. I need my healing ability to be magnified. If I can do that it might not matter nearly as much what hubbie eats. 

It has been a great thing for me to be able to eat the eggs, dairy and fish to know what was really good for the body and what wasn't before feeding it to my "others". It would be a very good thing if I could do that with meat too.

I have no idea what is "right" "wrong" "natural" "healthy".... all I know is what does what to me. I might not have been able to do what I can do in any other time or place or society. I guess that makes me pretty darn lucky.  :D


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2011, 05:14:46 am »
Good luck with whatever you do, Dorothy.  :)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2011, 06:04:36 am »
Thank you Phil!

Right now it's the Dorothy makes herself into a guinea pig show!

I'm totally convinced that hubbie is highly allergic and that if I can get him on the right diet I can get him healed up pronto - no matter what anyone says.

If I can find meats that don't harm me - it is much more likely that they won't harm him. Just like I did with the dairy and eggs.

That's my assumption any way.

What I do after that is anyone's guess - but I am DETERMINED to figure this out!

And hey listen - if I happen to turn into a superbeing in the process that wouldn't be so bad. hee hee.

Offline KD

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2011, 09:41:44 pm »
Yes, it makes sense KD. To be more clear - as a cooked vegan and vegetarian I had way ABOVE average health with none of the sattvic feelings. It was only being on exclusively raw vegan for half a year or so would those feelings arise - but up to that point where the energy became what I felt to be unbalanced I felt more than above average - I felt truly amazing.

Here's the thing KD, the big problem as I see it is that meat in our society is very difficult to get in a healthy form. For me, it was better to not eat animal foods when the animal foods were cooked and of terrible quality. The meat that I knew about and had available to me was only the feed lot, hormoned, antibioticed. gmo, genetically modified kind.... and never did I even guess that meat COULD be eaten raw. Raw seems to be a key factor for me with any food, which makes me wonder if it is going to be the same thing with meat.

[...]
What is right for an 18 year old guy - that I have not a clue about. I would assume that it partly would depend on the guy, what's available, their health history and how they perceived things. Same with people in general I suppose.


haha, well I mean that since you actually have years of actual practice and satisfaction with what you are doing it becomes a little more challenging to argue a position that you are playing with fire with your particular raw approach. From my point of view there does seem to be statistics which point to certain inevitabilities and I was basically saying that some issues (like brain stuff) aren't exactly things one really picks a 'runner up' of two options.

As for the quality issue or 'natural' stuff like with beef...I think I had some of these very concerns myself. I didn't even eat red meat for awhile when I first started on the diet for some of these reasons..eating mostly fish/ more fruits etc.. and that ended up being a big mistake.

Now - for better or worse - I have a way different list of importance when it comes to foods for health.

This is over the long range and not a meal to meal assessment. Particularity if it comes to cooked foods like in Tylers recent thread it would be somewhat different. For instance, a bunch of celery (particularly if I spit out he pulp) would make me feel fine at an outing and a grainfed burger would leave me somewhat sluggish-and/or gross. but a diet of all celery obviously is less sustainable than a diet that includes some cooked poor quality meat. By that same token obviously a piece of fruit is healthier than a bowl of rice or scrambled eggs(depends on who you talk to here)...but at this point i'd choose a bowl of rice or runny scrambled eggs at a diner over 10 fuji apples or something.

I have yet another kind of analogy/way of thinking about it. If you met with god and he conferred on you information that the ideal diet is 80% fatty meat/bones/bugs etc... 15% fruits and tubers seasonally and 5% herbs and other forage....at what point would the perversions from these wild foods that we have today form an unnatural diet that would rationalize eating completely differently? I think Daniel Vitalis gave awesome points in the recent debates reading these issues. What many people are talking about in terms of natural foods is just a mish mash of supermarket ready foods or at the higher tiers of quality - foods that still have been engineered or bred in some way by humans over millennia. This is prior to the more specific GMO mutations but mutations that have been used selectively to change food or even create basically whole new animals (cows) bread for consumption. Of course there really isn't any known ideal diet so that makes it more difficult in seeing which option is more perverted and we can only go on which things seem to be the most effective in the short and long term when we look honestly at these results..

What is it comes down to is prior to the major changes recently...we have a good idea that short of seal blubber that the eating of cows and some of these other distorted things provides for a reasonable diet and forms a fine basis for healing for modern people. I think that is fair to say. We can't be focused too much on some sense of perfection.

Its still wise to probably include foods in their most wild and natural state but thing thing to remember or take notice is the actual results people are getting on particular programs - to highlight which factors are most important and which are not. At this point you probably agree that the most raw a diet is....isn't going to correspond with the most natural diet or healthy person..particularity if there is some kind of ideology enforcing what is ok to eat and what isn't divorced of those results.

Sometimes I do think perhaps that Aajonus and rawpaleos alike might be a little too indifferent to the remarks of some vegan theorists and such that contemporary meat might additionally contain dioxin and types of radiation because its higher up on the food chain. But if we are indeed ruminant eaters....does this justify not eating meat and replacing it with something else?..or perhaps does it involve some kind of just added consciousness to our needs as modern people and to this issue where much more minor tweaks (perhaps eating less PROTEIN, Eating more vegetables [not embraced by Aajonus/paleos] and more fat than we could in nature or various 'cleanses 'etc'...I do not know) rather than what really are radical departures fretting over [perhaps] the wrong variables.

In a nutshell I would say that eating a diet that is rich in foods that perhaps do not represent our natural diet as a whole (but are perhaps  more free of poisons) - is not logical in constructing the best possible diet given the options in our current climate and state of health.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2011, 02:03:39 am »
Truly KD the whole issue is skewed by the recent abominations that have happened to the food supply when it comes down to making practical decisions on what is healthiest to feed oneself or ones family. You make some excellent points.

Here's a perspective. When I very first learned that food could change one's life it was because I was put on a cleansing diet. There was a long list of things I shouldn't eat for three weeks. I had to try to figure how on earth to do it and for the first time walked into one of the rare health food stores at that time. It changed my life.

Now, that gave me the perspective that cutting things OUT of ones diet could be magical. I didn't go on a diet to lose weight, or choose a particular diet that I thought INCLUDED anything particularly healthful.

I had a hard time continuing with cutting out almost everything, so as I moved forward I continued to cut out things - but what I thought might be the worst things first. For instance, cutting out soda/pop improved how I felt. But when I cut out all sugar  and fake foods like twinkies and Spam it made a DRAMATIC difference for me. One by one I tried cutting out things that weren't natural or what many said were not healthy foods and adding something that was natural and felt better and better until there was a baseline at which I was simply really darn healthy and happy pretty much all the time. It wasn't until I tried eating raw foods that I realized that I never really understood what the word "healthy" meant.

The furthest that I ever got to looking backward before relatively recently to what people would have eaten a long time ago and what a really natural diet was to thinking that we didn't always have fire and no other animal cooks their food. I just got on the internet in the last couple of years btw. Until then - I had only read a couple books 30 years earlier.

So today, with all these different gurus and diet plans and philosophies and inquiries into what the "true" diet of humans is what I have noticed is that different people feel good or great eating a very wide variety of regimes and some make regimes into religions and then there's no telling if they actually feel better or just are fundamentalists who are too unwilling to admit to anything that doesn't fit. That has to be watched out for fer sure when trying to sift through ideas and data.

Sometimes I can't help to wonder if which diet someone ends up feeling the best from is the one that cuts out the most of what is really BAD for that person and fits with how they live - or that they just don't realize that there might be 5 other diets that also cut out what was making them feel so bad....... or maybe they just were lucky enough to find the right one - but that just because it was just right for them means that it's going to be just right for everyone.

I have thought many times that allergies and food sensitivities or inability to digest a particular food are the primary factor in having someone stop at a diet and say THIS is the best one for everyone.

When I met Ann Wigmore decades ago and she had just started putting everyone on this mush of a soup I couldn't help but to think - well - that's because she had part of her intestines cut out from cancer a long time ago - everyone else calls it "cement soup". Because it worked for her (oh - and it sure did!) then that's what she fed everyone no matter how consistently they got sick from it at her center or how much they complained. She abandoned her earlier stance of eating whole raw foods because it was no longer the best diet for HER.

So much of what is available as food today is simply not food. It's amazing that humans can survive on them at all. How can any one of us really say what is ideal for us living in this modern world when there are so few choices of real foods left and finding real food is so darn hard! What was ideal before - even for millions of years - might not be ideal now living in the world the way it is today or in cities or when typing in front of a machine pouring EMFs at me.

I think this way of approaching diet by going back and getting a baseline by seeing what has worked well for eons is a great idea - as long as it doesn't become another box to lock oneself into and as long as we remember that we AREN'T living in that way any more. Our planet is not the same planet, our societies and lives are not what they were, we don't do the same things and maybe even our brains are different and even we as individuals are now so different because we no longer live all pretty much the same way out in the wild. Different people have radically different exposures to toxins, different allergies, different diseases and histories even living right next to one another let alone around the globe. Never before were we raised so far away from nature or exposed to so many truly new substances. Now we have to figure out what's worse at this board meeting - to chew only on this irradiated celery or eat this cooked hormone-pumped burger - and how on earth to find a burger or celery worth eating at all generally! I am the LAST person that will ever say THE perfect diet for all humans is such and such and I highly doubt that even God could do it these day.  ;)

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2011, 03:35:34 am »
I tried to eat prosciutto di parma next and nearly killed myself (or that is the way it felt). My energy field stopped turning clockwise and started spinning counterclockwise. I could not stand and was in terrible  physical pain.



This is a very ungrounded reaction, typical of someone who has eaten a carb-rich vegetarian diet for many years.  Raw animal foods make you, generally speaking, much calmer, more grounded, and generally more emotionally/energetically stable.  It's one thing to be sensitive...it's another thing to have your mind/emotions disrupted and disturbed by what you're sensing.  In other words, carb-rich veggie diets make you spacey, flighty, easily-disrupted, and less able to function.  The stresses and strains of life are much easier to take if you're eating good-quality animals foods regularly. 

I think that some people on a vegan/vegetarian diet get so flighty/spacey that they never come back, and their minds sort just gradually dissolve, and they fall into early dementia.  I think this is happening or will happen to Doug Graham, and I know at least one longtime vegan who it is already happening to.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2011, 05:00:48 am »
This is a very ungrounded reaction, typical of someone who has eaten a carb-rich vegetarian diet for many years.  Raw animal foods make you, generally speaking, much calmer, more grounded, and generally more emotionally/energetically stable.  It's one thing to be sensitive...it's another thing to have your mind/emotions disrupted and disturbed by what you're sensing.  In other words, carb-rich veggie diets make you spacey, flighty, easily-disrupted, and less able to function.  The stresses and strains of life are much easier to take if you're eating good-quality animals foods regularly. 

I think that some people on a vegan/vegetarian diet get so flighty/spacey that they never come back, and their minds sort just gradually dissolve, and they fall into early dementia.  I think this is happening or will happen to Doug Graham, and I know at least one longtime vegan who it is already happening to.

Oh my Cherimoya. Do you think that the physical pain from eating the prosciutto was ungrounded or the fact that I could perceive my energy body? I could always perceive energy even as a child eating a great deal of meat. 

By the way, I am quite able to function and I am not flighty or demented. Most people I meet consider me well-grounded. They might be wrong perhaps - but I would trust them more than I would trust your opinions that my mind is dissolving -considering that we've never even met.

By the way - just because you said something I consider to be quite rude, doesn't mean that I will assume that eating raw meat makes everyone aggressive.  ;) 

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2011, 09:37:44 am »
The meat I ate with hubbie was cooked. I tried to eat prosciutto di parma next and nearly killed myself (or that is the way it felt). My energy field stopped turning clockwise and started spinning counterclockwise. I could not stand and was in terrible  physical pain. But I have no idea how that meat was raised or killed or if it wasn't even irradiated or not.... and all that regular salt - I never eat that.
Do you think that the physical pain from eating the prosciutto was ungrounded or the fact that I could perceive my energy body?

    Prosciutto is so dry, it's nothing like soothing raw meat, even if it hasn't been pasteurized.  AV says salt swells thereby causing pressure on nerves, so- pain!  I know it's tempting to be led by your tongue's taste buds, but it might be better to think things out first, and stick to a plan, IMHO.  You know, that meat is so dry, I would call it cooked.  AV says cooked meat can never be eaten by certain people.  Judging by you having been vegetarian so long, I'd say you might be one of them, or close to it if that is possible.  He also of course says salt is not on the diet, except perhaps a few grains of salt a week in certain rare circumstances, and that salt is more commonly consumed on grain diets.  By my observation in this forum, some of the ZC'ers feel better with a little salt, especially if drinking no celery juice or no blood or eating no celery or seaweed, as those three have salts in them and make the animal a whole food.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2011, 10:03:19 am »
Yes Zi - I do agree that the prosciutto di parma was not a prudent choice and not part of a well-enough laid-out plan. My thinking was that I am used to whole salt and dry foods - those never bother me - and having the cured meat would irradiate the variable of different parasites or bacteria affecting me adversely. But there were other variables. One of the driving force to the experiment was that I simply had it available and did not know how long it would be before I found some fresh raw meats to try. Since I'm alive and there will be enough time between it and my next experiment to re-group and recover fully I would say that all-in-all I think it was a good learning experience. The next experiment I have is a package of organic grass-fed ground beef. I doubt that it was unfrozen during delivery and I wouldn't be surprised if it is a little old and it is wrapped in plastic. These are all potentially powerful negatives so this experiment I will not consider at all conclusive either if I should not feel well or if it affects my energy body adversely. I do however want to continue to experiment as I try to "hunt down" some decent raw meat in this city.

Here's an example of why I am doing this. When I learned about the Budwig cure it did seem that many Americans would get positive results from using cottage cheese, but when I tried it and tried the way it was originally made by the designer of the cure with raw milk before giving it others I could tell that the original was well-worth any amount of extra work because it was radically different.

Having these experiences with cooked meat and cured meat might end up being the same. It might make all the work that I will have to go through to procure the best meat seem so logical and right that it will change how I feel about all the work. I know that expense and the work on the milk that I devote is well worth the effort. I wouldn't have felt the same way if I didn't start off with the cottage cheese from the store and feel sick from it first. We'll see though! I might not be able to eat any meat raw or not or I might end up feeling really good from the best raw version like I did with the milk. I hope that I can eat some form of raw meat though because then I wouldn't be shooting so in the dark with these foods for my pack.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Tribal hierachy
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2011, 11:45:17 am »
Oh my Cherimoya. Do you think that the physical pain from eating the prosciutto was ungrounded or the fact that I could perceive my energy body? I could always perceive energy even as a child eating a great deal of meat.  

By the way, I am quite able to function and I am not flighty or demented. Most people I meet consider me well-grounded. They might be wrong perhaps - but I would trust them more than I would trust your opinions that my mind is dissolving -considering that we've never even met.

By the way - just because you said something I consider to be quite rude, doesn't mean that I will assume that eating raw meat makes everyone aggressive.  ;)  

I'm not trying to be insulting, but...

your post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.  Energy body?  Really?  Raw paleo people don't have "energy body" problems.  That stuff generally takes care of itself, when the diet is right. OTOH, after 20+ years of veganism, it's very common to have all sorts of bizarre problems of this type. I've been vegan, I've been vegetarian, and I've known plenty of longtime vegans whose minds have been seriously harmed by that diet...plenty of them have serious problems functioning normally. They're excessively "sensitive", easily frightened and anxious, and just generally shadows of their former selves.

Granted, you have no way of knowing that the raw paleo diet tends to fix that sort of thing, as do mineral supplements like bone meal and healing clay.  However, speaking from experience, both my own and that of others, I can say that it definitely does, in most cases.

Quit talking about your energy body and just eat raw paleo. It's not hard.  If you have a problem with that, maybe you'd like to get banned.

I'm not interested in making friends with you.  If you want to post here, in a way that will avoid banning, feel free. However, be aware that several of the mods, including me, tend to ban first, and ask questions later.  If all you have to offer is stories about trolling vegan forums, and musings on your energy body, then you better keep it respectful, or you may just get banned.