Author Topic: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...  (Read 71371 times)

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Offline RawZi

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2010, 09:42:42 am »
    I found a picture of her and an interview.  Thought you might like it.  I don't speak German, and not going to bother with giving a proper translation to English.

Wai the Woman was more involved with The Acne Book, which was I believe was the first incarnation of The Wai Diet. But her then boyfriend RRM decided to take The Sampl Diet, which includes no 'MUNCH Foods' and make it the mainstay of The Diet. This after Wai kind of disappeared off the forums and the scene as it were. It's rummored, or was, that they are no longer together.
Quote
'Höre auf deinen Körper'
 
http://www.enveda.de/Magazin/mag_251.cfm

Wai Genriiu Was kann man tun, um sich gesund und umweltfreundlich zu ernähren?

Wai Genriiu: Nahrungsmittel, die nicht umweltfreundlich sind, sind auch nicht gut für unseren Körper. Wir brauchen die Leute eigentlich nur über die Auswirkungen zu informieren, die die momentane Ernährungsweise auf sie selbst und ihre Gesundheit hat – der Mensch ist Egoist genug, dass daraus eigentlich eine Veränderung resultieren sollte.

Es gibt eine Vielzahl verschiedener Lehren über gesunde Ernährung. Die meisten von ihnen widersprechen sich in der ein oder anderen Form. Welche Hinweise würden Sie einem Anfänger geben, der versucht seine Ernährung umzustellen?

Wai Genriiu: Wenn du wissen willst, was gut für dich ist, dann probiere jede Ernährungslehre aus. Höre aufmerksam zu, was dein Körper dir sagt. Notiere jede Auswirkung dieser speziellen Diät: Wie fühlst du dich? Welche Beschaffenheit hat dein Stuhl? Wie ist deine Haut? Welche Auswirkung hat das Essen auf deine Energie? Wie fühlt sich dein Magen an? Wie schläfst du? Wie ist deine Stimmung?

Was sind für Sie die Basiselemente einer gesunden Ernährung?

Wai Genriiu: Eine ausreichende Menge aller essentiellen Nährstoffe. Möglichst wenig Karzinogene, Enzymhemmer und andere schädliche Substanzen. Leicht verdauliches Essen. Nahrung, die ein Wohlgefühl hinterlässt.

Was ist Ihr beruflicher Hintergrund und woher kam Ihre Motivation, über Ernährung zu forschen?

Wai Genriiu: Ich war viele Jahre als Profi-Model tätig. Als ich mit dem Modeln aufhörte, zog ich in ein anderes Land, veränderte meine Ernährungsweise – und bekam plötzlich Akne. Ich traf meinen jetzigen Freund, der ebenfalls an Akne litt, und zusammen begannen wir, uns mit Biochemie zu beschäftigen, um die Verbindung zwischen Ernährung und Akne zu erforschen. Im Zuge unserer Forschungen entdeckten wir eine Menge Material, das von so großer Wichtigkeit war, das wir es quasi online publizieren mussten.

Welches Feedback haben Sie von den Lesern Ihrer Website erhalten?

Wai Genriiu: Viele Menschen bedanken sich bei uns für die Information, die wir zur Verfügung stellen, und stellen recht detaillierte Fragen, die wir gerne beantworten. Die dankbarsten Rückmeldungen bekommen wir von Menschen, die unter sehr starker Akne gelitten haben und jetzt - dank der von uns vorgeschlagenen Ernährung - wieder ein normales Leben ohne Akne führen können.

Sie schlagen tiefgreifende, wenn auch durchaus "leckere" Veränderungen in der Ernährungsweise vor. Wie kann man sich die Phase des Übergangs erleichtern?

Wai Genriiu: Abgesehen von den Nahrungsmitteln, die Teil der empfohlenen Diät sind, kann man auch Essen zu sich nehmen, dass eigentlich eher als "schlecht" einzustufen ist. Man sollte da jedoch solches wählen, das möglichst wenig schädliche Substanzen enthält und gleichzeitig am meisten zufriedenstellt. Ich nenne das "Munch Food". Diese Nahrungsmittel befriedigen das Verlangen, den emotionalen Aspekt des Essens, und helfen dabei, die ansonsten strikte Diät aufrechtzuerhalten.
Edited to add the enveda link __:35:46 PM
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:35:55 am by RawZi »
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Offline TruthHunter

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2010, 03:17:48 am »
Here's a Google Machine Translation. Sort of readable...

Wai Genriiu What can you do to eat healthy and environmentally friendly way?

Wai Genriiu: Foods that are not environmentally friendly are also not good for our bodies. We need the people who really only provide information on the impact which the current diet on themselves and their health - the human being is selfish enough that it actually results in a change should be.

There are a variety of lessons about healthy eating. Most of them contradict each other in one form or another. What advice would you give to a beginner, trying to switch his diet?

Wai Genriiu: If you want to know what is good for you, then try out any nutrition. Listen attentively to what your body tells you. Write down any impact of this special diet: How do you feel? What characteristics does your chair(stool! hah!)? How is your skin? What effect does the food on your energy? How does that feel your stomach? How do you sleep? What is your mood?

What do you see the basic elements of a healthy diet?

Wai Genriiu: A sufficient quantity of all essential nutrients. As little as possible carcinogens, enzyme inhibitors and other harmful substances. Easily digestible food. Food that leaves a feeling of wellbeing.

What is your professional background and where your motivation was to do research on nutrition?

Wai Genriiu: I worked for many years as a professional model. When I finished with the modeling, I moved to another country, changed my diet - and suddenly got acne. I met my current boyfriend, who also suffered from acne, and together we began to deal with biochemistry, to explore the connection between diet and acne. During our research we discovered a lot of material that was so important that we almost had to publish online.

What feedback have you received from the readers of your website?

Wai Genriiu: Many people thank us for information, which we shall make available, and quite detailed questions will be answered. The most rewarding feedback we get from people who have suffered from very severe acne and can now - thanks to lead our proposed nutrition - back to a normal life without acne.

They propose far-reaching, albeit absolutely "delicious" changes in the diet before. How to ease the transitional phase?

Wai Genriiu: are apart from the food that is part of the recommended diet, you can also take food that actually rather than "poorly classified" is. One should not choose such that it contains less harmful substances as possible, while the most satisfactory. I call this "Munch Food." These foods to satisfy the longing, the emotional aspect of eating, and help to maintain the otherwise strict diet.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2010, 03:51:18 am »
Nothing terribly interesting in that above message and I speak German. That said, I am deeply grateful to Waigenriuu  as she was the first one to show articles on the dangers of cooked foods with plentiful references to numerous, interesting scientific studies.
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Offline ForTheHunt

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2010, 04:07:01 am »
You should just remove this forum.

We don't support it and no one uses it.
Take everyones advice with a grain of salt. Try things out for your self and then make up your mind.

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2010, 04:38:51 am »
You should just remove this forum.

We don't support it and no one uses it.
 I very strongly disagree. The same sort of argument was used by another member, a while back, to suggest the removal of the primal diet and weston-price forums, because they were rather inactive at the time. Yet, the Primal Diet forum has become very active indeed since then, and the AV-meetings thread in the Primal Diet forum has a huge number of views for it, with the WP forum also having a very popular,  essential thread for online reading of Weston-Price's entire book. At least some of us have been inspired to go raw as a result of Wai's teachings(in some ways, Wai taught me more than any other rawish guru re actual scientific data supporting raw foods), so it should stay, for now.

I'll see about adding some important new links re Wai's site, in the mean-time.

* Seems I don't need to as I've already added, at the top of the forum, the 3 Wai links I wanted re providing the various  pro-raw scientific studies. The page concerned at the top of the Wai Diet forum already has 2900+ views which is quite impressive, so far.


I think that there was some wai forum somewhere where I could advertise this forum?

« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 04:58:33 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2010, 06:52:17 am »
You should just remove this forum.

We don't support it and no one uses it.

I came to raw paleo diet via Wai Diet.
My 2 younger kids do wai diet when they are sick.
wai diet for me is fruit and sea food.
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Offline michaelwh

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2010, 07:00:20 am »
   I found a picture of her and an interview.  Thought you might like it.  I don't speak German, and not going to bother with giving a proper translation to English.

Here's some more information about "Wai Genriiu", and his real picture:

http://www.thijsklompmaker.com/interview.htm

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2010, 07:16:00 am »
Absolutely great find!

The man should experiment with raw land animals again.  We should invite him to post in this forum!  Such an honor.
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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2010, 10:26:14 am »
Here's some more information about "Wai Genriiu", and his real picture:

http://www.thijsklompmaker.com/interview.htm

    Who is RRM?  Wai Klompmaker's boyfriend?  Is Wai/Thijs homosexual?  I would like to see him post too, or her, about land animals too like gs said.

Quote
Wai
05-24-2003
08:26 AM   thank you J,
i think that RRM also had acne since he was 13
he is now 37 and his skin has become a tiny little bit more tolerant this year, in the sense that he can now eat more raw fish than before (up to 300 gram a day), and can occasionally even take some ginger with the salmon now, while this always resulted in new pimples when he tried that during these past 7 years that he was on the 100% strict diet
what keeps him going, is his perfect skin, knowing that he doesnt want those pimples all over anymore (including the big painful ones, the cysts, indeed)

but, in most people with acne, the sebum production resides sooner, so your changes are pretty good  
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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2010, 11:27:49 am »
I can't help it - I need to know what his last name means.

Offline ryanwang

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2010, 09:08:21 pm »
I'm following a wai diet to improve my skin right now. But mainly because I don't have the stuff(grass fed red meat) to start a total raw paleo.
But I eat eggs and about 150g of cod to add up the protein. I live in Canada, kinda cold, so local fruit selections are limited and mainly non organic fruits.
Didn't see much improvement on my skin yet but I am not that tired anymore.

Offline tammy123

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2010, 11:04:19 pm »
Wai diet is according to me is a healthy way to keep yourself glowing everyday as, today many people are going veggie and having raw diet plan that includes fruits and vegetables that can be combined with any thing.

I am a strong supporter of Raw veggie diet as it is high in protein and very good for healthy and glowing skin.

Thanks


Offline PaganAngel

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2010, 12:35:41 pm »
I came to raw paleo diet via Wai Diet.
My 2 younger kids do wai diet when they are sick.
wai diet for me is fruit and sea food.



Hi i just started researching about Raw Paleo diets after having read Aanjanous' experience a few months ago. I am also transitioning to RPD via the Wai Diet, right now i'm eating 2 - 4 raw organic eggs a day & having sushi 2x a week (on top of the raw fruits & greens i consume regularly). The thought of consuming raw land animals makes me squeamish right now so raw fish is a good place to start  :)  Are there any dangers with mercury poisoning or pesticides or parasites from eating raw fish? 

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2010, 03:07:33 pm »

Hi i just started researching about Raw Paleo diets after having read Aanjanous' experience a few months ago. I am also transitioning to RPD via the Wai Diet, right now i'm eating 2 - 4 raw organic eggs a day & having sushi 2x a week (on top of the raw fruits & greens i consume regularly). The thought of consuming raw land animals makes me squeamish right now so raw fish is a good place to start  :)  Are there any dangers with mercury poisoning or pesticides or parasites from eating raw fish? 
  Well, there are some on this forum who have a fear of mercury-poisoning/parasites and the like re raw seafood. I consider such fears to be unfounded based on my own experience. I have never had an issue with raw seafood(well, the only exception was chemically-treated raw fish I bought at some supermarkets, but that was it).

Here is a website debunking the mercury-in-fish scares plus an article on a study definitively damning the whole hysteria re merc ury in fish notions:-

http://fishscam.com/mercuryMyths.cfm

http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/med/mercury.htm
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:43:11 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2011, 01:36:38 am »
...sugar is not completely banned by palaeodiets as a whole, re cane-sugar.
Again, where are you getting this from? Can you cite a single reference?

Quote
It does not matter whether Wai recommends only table-sugar as that is only a variation thereof.  Besides, sugar is always used as a condiment, not as a major food, even in quantity.
It can also be used as a food ingredient, such as in drinks and smoothies and possibly in whatever baked goods Thijs Klompmaker creates with the grains he apparently eats in his "munch foods". Even bread usually includes sugar in its ingredients.

You're still ducking my question of whether heated, refined cane sugar is "not Paleo," or "not-raw" for that matter. And what about beet sugar and 100% fruit jam? Are they also OK?

Quote
it's more of a case of split-personality than that he always supports grains.
LOL, now there's a hearty endorsement. ;)

Speaking of split personalities, it seems like we have one if we say that advocacy of raw butter is not at all Paleo but advocacy of heated, refined cane sugar and limited grains is.

Quote
The point is that the Wai Diet is more raw and more palaeo than the Weston-Price Diet and more palaeo than the Primal Diet. So it stays.
It seems like you are much less tolerant of dairy and cooked meats advocacy than other non-raw-Paleo advocacy. Is it possible that your opinion is somewhat tilted by your own personal experience?

There are similarities between Wai and raw Paleo, sure, yet you admitted that Wai is transitional, not truly raw Paleo, and it seems like you've been backtracking from that since I pointed out its implications.

   A young man said to me he's on the Wai Diet. He said he mostly eats egg yolks without the membranes that's around it, olive oil and orange juice.  He said the fish isn't necessary, that sugars and fats are most important ....
Thanks for the info, RawZi. Did he eat any sugars other than those contained in OJ? Was he drinking this drink that Avalon reported is popular with some Wai diet practitioners:
 
... I also disagreed with the Orange juice, sugar and olive oil drink that is a very big part of RRM's way of getting adequate energy. ...

Fish is one of the best parts of the Wai diet, so eliminating it would seem to be unwise.
 
Quote
on it etc but it's probably his interpretation.  I've read that land meats can be on the diet, but that it's so hard to find proper quality meats these days, that 99% of the people on it or so never touch land meats.  
That's the sort of dangerous ED-sounding nonsense that can come from bogus fad diets like Wai and apparently result in a deficient diet of little or nothing more than egg yolks, olive oil and orange juice, and maybe heated, refined table sugar.

One test of a diet is its "fruits" (pardon the pun :P ). We don't have much in the way of ringing endorsements for it:

i have followed the WAI diet almost 100% for 8 months. I originally got on the diet to improve my skin. This diet did wonders for my skin but i eventually started running into problems and i started to be extremely fatigued, etc.. it seems the fruit was getting to much for me.

but its a great diet for those who thrive on lots of fruits, unfortunately i due poorly on fruits.

Whereas we do have clearly bad reports about it:

I did the wai diet a couples of years ago for about 8 mounts and I had to stop cause I was loosing my hair and was not feeling good on this diet. I started this diet for my acne and it just made my acne 10 times worse it was a real nightmare. Its to high in fruits and way to much olive oil .... its crazy!


GS tried Wai and reported that raw paleo is superior. Avalon apparently thought the Wai diet was pretty good, but not good enough to stay on it.

So far no one has reported that they're currently doing the Wai diet and there doesn't seem to be much support or strong defense of it, even months after this post, which seems to be accurate, though I would suggest only moving Wai to a non-raw-Paleo subsection of the forum rather than removing it completely:
You should just remove this forum.

We don't support it and no one uses it.

Maybe I'll have some powdered cane sugar on whole grain donuts for my "munch foods". LOL
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2011, 01:55:58 am »
Again, where are you getting this from? Can you cite a single reference?
  I assumed that palaeo peoples would have occasionally eaten raw sugar cane.Don't see why not.

Quote
It can also be used as a food ingredient, such as in drinks and smoothies and possibly in whatever baked goods Thijs Klompmaker creates with the grains he apparently eats in his "munch foods". Even bread usually includes sugar in its ingredients.

You're still ducking my question of whether heated, refined cane sugar is "not Paleo," or "not-raw" for that matter. And what about beet sugar and 100% fruit jam? Are they also OK?
LOL, now there's a hearty endorsement. ;)
Can't cane sugar be eaten raw?
Quote
Speaking of split personalities, it seems like we have one if we say that advocacy of raw butter is not at all Paleo but advocacy of heated, refined cane sugar and limited grains is.
It seems like you are much less tolerant of dairy and cooked meats advocacy than other non-raw-Paleo advocacy. Is it possible that your opinion is somewhat tilted by your own personal experience?
  The point is that the Wai Diet does include some criticism of grains, if you read the Wai Diet pages in the waisays website. The sugar is only a condiment, so is a minor issue.
Quote
There are similarities between Wai and raw Paleo, sure, yet you admitted that Wai is transitional, not truly raw Paleo, and it seems like you've been backtracking from that since I pointed out its implications.

The point is that the Wai Diet is closer to rawpalaeodiets than the other diets like the Weston-Price diet, say. Plus, the Waisays website has some useful pro-raw scientific data with references provided, so it needs more prominent positioning.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:55:08 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2011, 05:11:03 am »
  I assumed that palaeo peoples would have occasionally eaten raw sugar cane.Don't see why not.
Where did sugarcane originate? Was it available in Africa or Europe during the Paleolithic? If it's another of those tropical foods that originated in South/Southeast Asia, I've already explained multiple times that as far as I know, my ancestors never set foot in that area, nor did most of the ancestors of Europeans and European Americans.

Quote
Can't cane sugar eaten raw?
The table sugar that Wai advocates is heated and refined. Even "raw" cane sugar is a processed product. I doubt that fruit juice or raw cane sugar are truly healthy and I don't consider them "Paleo", but your standards may be more lax than mine on that. Next you'll be advocating fruit jam, dried fruits, and raw nut butters.

Quote
The point is that the Wai Diet does include some criticism of grains,
Sure, I didn't say otherwise. That's why I think it belongs on the forum. Didn't you notice my stating that multiple times? I just don't think it deserves the official designation of raw Paleo. It's dying a slow death anyway. You appear to be the only one still giving it a positive spin and keeping it alive here.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2011, 05:31:02 am »
By "palaeo" I meant cane sugar fits in with cooked-palaeo. Besides, even rawpalaeo allows some processing such as raw beef jerky, so this is mere quibbling. The location of the original sugar cane is irrelevant. I know some people bizarrely exclude plants originally based in the Americas, but the location is irrelevant, more important is whether it was of the type of foods eaten in palaeo times. There's no reason to assume palaeo peoples would not have wanted to eat cane sugar as it is hardly indigestible.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2011, 07:21:39 am »
By "palaeo" I meant cane sugar fits in with cooked-palaeo.
For some people maybe, but most of the experts on Paleo, such as Cordain, Audette, Wolf, Sisson and KGH, don't consider refined sugar, whether heated or raw, Paleo--apparently because they don't think that humans are biologically adapted to processed sugar and I doubt they'd recommend chewing sugar cane either, but it would be interesting to ask. It doesn't really matter, since Wai doesn't recommend sugar cane and it's not the same thing as table sugar, that's just stretching things to try to make the Wai square peg fit into the raw Paleo round hole.

Quote
Besides, even rawpalaeo allows some processing such as raw beef jerky, so this is mere quibbling.
I doubt that Cordain, Wolf, Sisson, Audette or Eaton would agree with you. I doubt that they would consider table sugar or even raw processed cane sugar just as healthy as beef jerky and I'm not convinced of it either. You're really grasping at straws.

Quote
The location of the original sugar cane is irrelevant.

You wrote:
Quote
I assumed that palaeo peoples would have occasionally eaten raw sugar cane.Don't see why not.
I responded to your query of why not. If sugar cane wasn't in their area, how could they have eaten it? You apparently felt that whether they ate it or not was important enough to bring it up. What relevance is it if they could theoretically eat it if it wasn't there? We already know it's edible raw, so what does the Stone Ager example tell us that we don't already know?

Quote
It would mean that your claim that more important is whether it was of the type of foods eaten in palaeo times.
For most Paleo peoples in most areas for the vast majority of the Paleolithic era, including likely all of your ancestors, it was not. How is it relevant to you or me if a small number of people that were not your or my ancestors who lived late in the Stone Age in one region might have eaten it? We already know it's edible, so what does the fact that they could possibly have eaten it in a certain region tell us that we don't already know?

Quote
There's no reason to assume palaeo peoples would not have wanted to eat cane sugar as it is hardly indigestible.
No one said they wouldn't have. If it was impossible for them to get it, who cares. They would have probably wanted to have eaten pizza too, but what's the relevance?

I notice you didn't answer several of my questions. That and the straw men you brought up suggest that you don't have good answers to the questions.

It's not like I'm suggesting that the Wai diet be banned, just moved to a more appropriate subsection, and not just because of the sugar or the grain munch foods, but also for other reasons I and others have discussed in the past. You've yet to provide a convincing reason that it shouldn't be moved. Just because some Stone Agers might have eaten something somewhere in the world does not make it "Paleo" in the sense of a biologically appropriate, healthy food. If you can get one of the prominent Paleo diet "experts" to agree that table sugar and the Wai diet are healthy and sufficiently Paleo and if they can explain why this is, biologically, metabolically, etc. that would be more convincing. You are not an objective arbiter on this subject.
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2011, 08:27:31 am »
I did wai diet for 3 months prior to adding raw red meat.
During those 3 months I followed what I understood about wai diet:

- raw paleo fruit
- raw sea food (their forum has a very good resource of plentiful sea food)
- raw egg yolks

(I never liked EVOO)

I don't see why you have to go around accusing the wai diet of being a sugar pusher of which it is not. No way.  Nyet.  In the 3 months I did Wai Diet I never even thought about "sugar".  Mind you I practiced Wai Diet best I could for 3 whole months. And there was none of the "sugar" you keep insinuating.

Any other "munch food" Mr "Wai" is stating is "cheat" food for the undiciplined.

Wai diet is more raw and even more "paleo" than Weston Price and Aajonus Primal diet.

I or Tyler are not the only ones who have the same observation that Wai Diet is a version of Paleo Diet and we should bring wai dieters in our collective sphere of influence.

Loren Howe states as a fact that Wai Diet = Paleo Diet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI

So let's drop this "issue" against Wai Diet.  It's nitpicking.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 08:40:38 am by TylerDurden »
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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2011, 08:36:00 am »
For some people maybe, but most of the experts on Paleo, such as Cordain, Audette, Wolf, Sisson and KGH, don't consider refined sugar, whether heated or raw, Paleo--apparently because they don't think that humans are biologically adapted to processed sugar and I doubt they'd recommend chewing sugar cane either, but it would be interesting to ask. It doesn't really matter, since Wai doesn't recommend sugar cane and it's not the same thing as table sugar, that's just stretching things to try to make the Wai square peg fit into the raw Paleo round hole.
Not at all. But by all means try to find a remark by Cordain et al that specifically denounces raw cane sugar, as opposed to heated table-sugar. Otherwise, you are the one who is b*llsh*tting.
Quote
I doubt that Cordain, Wolf, Sisson, Audette or Eaton would agree with you. I doubt that they would consider table sugar or even raw processed cane sugar just as healthy as beef jerky and I'm not convinced of it either. You're really grasping at straws.
No, you are. My point stands, that cooked-palaeo and raw-palaeo both allow some form of processing, besides some palaeo gurus do recommend pemmican and other processed meats. Besides, you have not even bothered to address the point that  refined sugar is never used as a food, but solely as a mere condiment.
Quote
You wrote:I responded to your query of why not. If sugar cane wasn't in their area, how could they have eaten it? You apparently felt that whether they ate it or not was important enough to bring it up. What relevance is it if they could theoretically eat it if it wasn't there? We already know it's edible raw, so what does the Stone Ager example tell us that we don't already know?
The point is that if it is edible raw, then that fits perfectly with Audette's and others' definition of what "palaeo" means.
Quote
For most Paleo peoples in most areas for the vast majority of the Paleolithic era, including likely all of your ancestors, it was not. How is it relevant to you or me if a small number of people that were not your or my ancestors who lived late in the Stone Age in one region might have eaten it? We already know it's edible, so what does the fact that they could possibly have eaten it in a certain region tell us that we don't already know?
  That's grossly hypocritical of you, since you cited regional location as relevant. The fact is that it is edible and has no antinutrients, case closed.
Quote
No one said they wouldn't have. If it was impossible for them to get it, who cares. They would have probably wanted to have eaten pizza too, but what's the relevance?

I notice you didn't answer several of my questions. That and the straw men you brought up suggest that you don't have good answers to the questions.
The relevance is that if any palaeo peoples could have eaten raw sugar cane in their areas, then your whole argument is dead in the water.
Quote
It's not like I'm suggesting that the Wai diet be banned, just moved to a more appropriate subsection, and not just because of the sugar or the grain munch foods, but also for other reasons I and others have discussed in the past. You've yet to provide a convincing reason that it shouldn't be moved. Just because some Stone Agers might have eaten something somewhere in the world does not make it "Paleo" in the sense of a biologically appropriate, healthy food. If you can get one of the prominent Paleo diet "experts" to agree that table sugar and the Wai diet are healthy and sufficiently Paleo and if they can explain why this is, biologically, metabolically, etc. that would be more convincing. You are not an objective arbiter on this subject.
Utter drivel, as usual. Like I said, how the Wai Diet is interpreted is far more interpreted is FAR more important. Since table sugar is solely used as a condiment, NOT as a food, it is irrelevant to your argument. Besides, you have a dead, embarassing  argument re raw cane-sugar. The grains aspect has been addressed since Wai does attack them in some cases on his website articles.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 08:42:55 am by TylerDurden »
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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2011, 10:37:25 am »
My understanding based on ex-vegans on other forums and such doing wai was the main daily staple consisted of orange juice, EVOO and many teaspoons of table sugar. The idea that this is considered a natural diet is discouraging. The idea that it is automatically a healthier or more therapeutic diet over non-raw and non-paleo diets is also fairly discouraging. Above, refined sugar is listed as a 'macro-nutrient' which means its being eaten as a food in quantity as a calorie source discounting any negative affects of it being a modern processed food. Sugarcane is a pain in the ass to chew and generally needs to be refined, juiced, or boiled. Even with the idea that refining food is ok, the idea that you can eat refined food (like oils as well) and place it higher in value to other foods or approaches because it can somehow be traced to what people MIGHT HAVE HAD ACCESS TO represents a huge problem in conceptualizing healthy food. This includes the whole Cordain definition of 'paleo' ...which is entirely flawed and ignorant in terms of finding out which foods are truly healthy for people to eat and how much.

Saying that this is closer to a diet of our ancestors because it leaves out certain foods is just unfortunate and bad logic. Countless examples can be made that anyone can understand are not a healthy way to construct a diet...never-mind one that approximates true paleo peoples' intake.  Its like saying that doing The Master Cleanse three days a week then eating a bag of almonds, a jar of olives, 8 brussel sprouts, and a few chicken eggs is a 'paleo' diet and that adding some quality raw meat makes it a complete and 'healthy' diet. Food isn't just stuff that evaporates in your stomach and the particles either add or subtract from health. Even if a food is suitable for consumption in some form and amount for an ancient person it can easily cause all kinds of problems in varying amounts or particularly so for a modern people with chaotic internal environments. Eating in such a way also could neglect huge components of diet that people truly require. This is also after making a huge assumption that many such ancient foods were EVER regular foods for humans - after all, other species eat natural stuff too.

To get away from sugar...I don't know what animal eats olives in abundance or how old they are but I can gauge pretty easily that a diet of 98% olive oil and 2 percent choice wild venison is not something humans thrive on. As with other examples, Its curious to see what other evidence on top of diet experiments for the last 100 years people require that will dispel the emphasis on such natural=healthy simplicities particularly when discounting actual availability, seasonality or practicality.

If a diet matches the compositions/processes/habits of ancient or traditional peoples it can be seen as a diet suitable for us to adapt to our needs and with the foods we have available which mimic those compositions if need be. If 'paleo' is just an arbitrary or inaccurate grouping or assessment of foods based on their age on the planet..it isn't really a diet at all nevermind one unique to any particular period. A proper diet is something that people can measurably thrive and heal on while doing the least damage..not some loose organization of what is volatile or safe on paper regardless of the actual documented effects on the body.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 02:01:51 pm by TylerDurden »

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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2011, 02:04:27 pm »
There is no such thing as a "proper" diet. And the palaeo definition is mostly defined by what is NOT palaeo. I seriously doubt that any palaeo adherents stick strictly to the  rough components/ratios found in ancient palaeolithic diets, according to the latest research. Everyone is either zero-carb or eats grassfed meats instead of wild game etc.
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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2011, 10:18:24 am »
My understanding based on ex-vegans on other forums and such doing wai was the main daily staple consisted of orange juice, EVOO and many teaspoons of table sugar.


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Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2011, 10:29:55 am »
The idea that it is automatically a healthier or more therapeutic diet over non-raw and non-paleo diets is also fairly discouraging. Above, refined sugar is listed as a 'macro-nutrient' which means its being eaten as a food in quantity as a calorie source discounting any negative affects of it being a modern processed food. Sugarcane is a pain in the ass to chew and generally needs to be refined, juiced, or boiled. Even with the idea that refining food is ok, the idea that you can eat refined food (like oils as well) and place it higher in value to other foods or approaches because it can somehow be traced to what people MIGHT HAVE HAD ACCESS TO represents a huge problem in conceptualizing healthy food.
Thanks, KD, you seem to get what I'm saying and you made good points here showing why the issue with the Wai diet is more than just nitpicking. It's fairly fundamental. The idea that just because some Stone Ager ate a food or, worse still, might have had access to it, that it must then be regarded as fully "Paleo" and healthy, without any regard to quantity or duration of intake or overall dietary balance, seems like it could potentially lead to some people heading off into unbalanced, unhealthy diets. When you add to that the issue in the Wai approach (as it seems to be practiced--see my quotes above and the Wai writings and forum) of unnecessary downplaying of healthy Paleo foods like meats and advocacy of grain, legume and tuber munch foods in the acne book, and look at the whole picture and the reports of people faring poorly on the approach and look at what Wai dieters have actually been eating, then it doesn't add up to something we would necessarily want to promote with a raw Paleo designation. I hope I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anything convincing to the contrary yet. If we have any Wai dieters left, I hope they will speak to these issues.

Quote
Countless examples can be made that anyone can understand are not a healthy way to construct a diet...never-mind one that approximates true paleo peoples' intake.
Yes, and I think you tried to explain this in the past. I hope folks try to understand you on this rather than just seek to contradict you, because it seems like an important concept and I have seen multiple newbies in various dietary forums fall prey to this pitfall.

I tried to word this in a constructive and understandable manner, so I hope it comes across well.

Here's another post where I tried to explain my thinking on the fundamental concept of what a "Paleo" diet means:
... For me the key feature of raw Paleo is more than "a more historically natural approach," it's a biologically appropriate approach, or at least aims to be as best as can be managed with today's foods. Biological appropriateness was the fundamental element of Boyd Eaton's 1986 hypothesis of Paleolithic nutrition that started the Paleo diet movement (Voegtlin's earlier work was not influential enough to start the movement). Basing it only on what's "historically natural" lends itself too easily to the errors of blind emulation and re-enactment and woo like Natural Hygiene. ...
On this fundamental element I find the Wai diet as illustrated in Wai's writings and the Wai forum to be wanting. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe it has been improved since, but I haven't seen evidence of this yet.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 10:55:37 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb