Author Topic: Cutting out veggies for some time  (Read 23127 times)

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Offline Suiren

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Cutting out veggies for some time
« on: April 16, 2013, 12:34:48 am »
I cut out all vegetables to see if it will help my indigestion problems and the acne I developed since eating a low carb/ ketogenic diet.

When searching for Paleo and Fruit only I came across the Wai Diet. I like some aspects of it, but others I don't, (so much sugar) so I am now trying to tweak it to my liking.

Until recently I ate a  omnivorous Paleo Diet with cooked veggies and some cooked meat. 
I don't have a lot of options. I CAN NOT go low carb again, because I don't have a spare liver or thyroid. My health was bad then and adding carbs resolved all the problems. So that is just not for me right now.
I also don't want to eat extremely high carb, and it seems loading up on fruits that can happen.

The diet allows raw meat aside from fish nowadays, which made it a lot better. My plan is to eat raw fish as well as raw grasfed and wild meat.

I want to cut out veggies until I get relief and then carefully reintroduce a few, one at a time.

I the meantime I am wondering how I can reduce the sugar in this diet and add some fat aside from olive oil.
What would be some good not so sweet fruits that still have a decent amount of calories and nutrients?

At the moment I am eating about 200g of raw meat or fish a day. Can't afford to buy much more (I still get a stomach ache and soft stools from raw meat, but hope it will stop). I eat bananas, coconut, avocado, cucumber, tomato and zucchini too. I don't season and drink only water. (the adding juice with oil part sounded a bit extreme)

I want to make sure I don't lose weight, as always. I get to 2700 cals with this diet, that is more than before, so I suppose there is no way I would lose weight?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 12:57:29 am by Suiren »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 07:14:42 am »
My first aid would be probiotics.
Repopulate your gut with various brands via overdosing on them for a few weeks.
5x to 10x the recommended amount on the label.
Solid gut full of probiotics is great.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 07:39:31 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 07:31:18 am »
gs, and anyone else who has od'd on probiotics... what are the 'symptoms' you experienced?

i've tried to do this, but not lasted more than a day due to frequent bm's (at the normal/recommended dose) and/or diarrhea (doubling the dose).  i can't imagine what would happen at 5-10 x recommended dose  -X

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 07:41:48 am »
You have to find a brand that agrees with you.
Different strokes for different folks.

My 11 year old boy is allergic to the "Healthy Options" brand.
My wife says the "Lacto" brand from our organic farmer doesn't feel right for her.
An old lady neighbor says she is allergic to Yakult.
I'm okay with all of them.

High meat is a kind of probiotic.
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 09:29:01 am »
i think i give up on probiotics. i have this kind of reaction to all i've tried so far.... a lot!!!

i do like high meat!, but i do better with aged meat. i can only handle small amounts of high meat.

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2013, 01:12:19 pm »
You get negative reactions from "high-meat"? That's unusual. What are they?

If you want decent probiotics, try EM(Effective Microorganisms) Products.
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Offline Suiren

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2013, 07:53:21 pm »
GS

So diarrhea is to be expected when ODing on probiotics? Or would it be a bad sign?

Do you know of any quality low carb and low sugar fruits? (Preferably a decent amount of calories). Other than the ones I have named.
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Offline LePatron7

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2013, 08:18:00 pm »
Just throwing this out there. The types of carbs in fruits, (most) veggies, and certain nuts are simple sugars. Which actually makes then easier to absor b. Since they're already single sugars, they get absorbed immediately. Complex carbs are links of sugar that need to be separated/broken down before they're absorbed.

The scd is actually mainly simple sugars, and that helps a lot of people. Something else to consider is that all complex carbs have to be broken down into simple sugars to be absorbed. Otherwise they go to the colin and feed bacteria.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2013, 09:12:40 pm »
GS

So diarrhea is to be expected when ODing on probiotics? Or would it be a bad sign?

Do you know of any quality low carb and low sugar fruits? (Preferably a decent amount of calories). Other than the ones I have named.

It is the reverse.  A great compatible with you probiotic should stop all diarrhoea, stop all stomach pain, give you a solid quiet gut, can help you digest almost anything, stop you from farting, give you nice solid comfortable poops... good probiotics will help you gain weight.

In my country we have papayas, watermelons, melons, guava, durian, hydrating green oranges.  And raw root crops like singkamas and yacon.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 09:19:39 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline jessica

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2013, 10:25:21 pm »
Ioanna, I think you have to use your intuition about the probiotics.  Like GS said, some are compatible some are not.  I know its a costly thing to experiment with so perhaps just making sure you are eating plenty of aged meats might be a good idea.

A few years ago I had giardia and GS prescribed a probiotic overdose.  I went to a little supplement store ran by a nice women who offered that I might "muscle test" which probiotic was right for me.  Basically she demonstrated  that I hold the pill bottles, close my eyes and sense whether or not I was being attracted to, or repeled from the probiotics.  I did this, thinking it was kinda of hokey, and found the pills I had used in the past were repelling and a new brand to be more attracting, even though in my mind I wanted to buy what I used before I bought the kind my body "signaled" was proper.  Took 10x the serving for a day and boom, explosive diarrhea gone! So muscle testing a probiotic might be worth trying,  I know it sounds like sorcery but its worth a shot.

Suiren, how are your stools now?   Does fruit not cause any digestive upset or acne?

GS id like a picture of a green orange?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2013, 10:36:45 pm »
These green oranges we call "dalanghita", they cost around 70 to 80 pesos a kilo in the city.
They are very hydrating, not too sweet.
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Offline dogman333

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2013, 10:45:29 pm »
Surien,
You very well CAN get diarrhea from probiotics.
This was the case with my autistic nephew on the GAPS program.

It certainly can be frustrating when our guts don't cooperate with us! I wish you all the best in your journey to learn more about this.

From our experience with the GAPS (Gut and Psychology Syndrome) diet of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, if one's gut is leaky and unhealthy, probiotics need to be added very gradually to prevent reactions. And foods need to be very easy to digest (here's were some lightly cooked and pureed foods come in) in the beginning stages. Fruits and veges that feed the wrong bacteria will aggravate the conditions.

According to GAPS -- while raw animal products are most easy to digest --- the raw fruits and veges are more difficult. Better to juice or cook well. The fiber and starch feed the wrong bacteria which contribute to a leaky gut (and thus immune reactions). The so-called 'bad' bacteria (which should be balanced by the 'good' ones) release toxins that weaken the integrity of the gut wall. Other yeasts and fungus can actually drill holes through the gut lining. In the GAPS program, they are careful to select SCD compliant fruits and veges and cook them well in the beginning. I believ this kind of thing has been discussed before in this forum.
 
The gut needs lots of time to heal -- and it will.
I would encourage anyone seeking a thorough treatment of gut health to get Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride book. Her program is healing the gut in order to successfully cure autism and other learning/mental disorders. She is an advocate of raw meats and raw animal products --- but in the beginning stages of her program, the body may not tolerate raw.

On a further note:  Did anyone read Chris Kresser's recent blog on the book, An Epidemic of Absence?
http://chriskresser.com/the-hygiene-hypothesis-is-modern-disease-associated-with-being-too-clean
 it's a more in-depth look at the role of parasites and bacteria in our health. AND it appears the leading edge research doesn't believe that probiotics actually re-populate the gut. Rather, . . .

Quote
"that it’s a lot more sophisticated and complex than that.  These bacteria that we’re consuming are modulating our immune system and creating changes in our gut that probably do influence the composition of the gut flora, but it’s not so much about just filling it back up as it is about the effects that these organisms have on everything from our immunity to our gut genome."

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2013, 12:07:34 am »
I thought she was against raw animal foods.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

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Offline Suiren

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2013, 06:06:57 am »
Just throwing this out there. The types of carbs in fruits, (most) veggies, and certain nuts are simple sugars. Which actually makes then easier to absor b. Since they're already single sugars, they get absorbed immediately. Complex carbs are links of sugar that need to be separated/broken down before they're absorbed.

The scd is actually mainly simple sugars, and that helps a lot of people. Something else to consider is that all complex carbs have to be broken down into simple sugars to be absorbed. Otherwise they go to the colin and feed bacteria.

I remember reading that veggies are generally harder to digest than fruits?

It is the reverse.  A great compatible with you probiotic should stop all diarrhoea, stop all stomach pain, give you a solid quiet gut, can help you digest almost anything, stop you from farting, give you nice solid comfortable poops... good probiotics will help you gain weight.

In my country we have papayas, watermelons, melons, guava, durian, hydrating green oranges.  And raw root crops like singkamas and yacon.

Sounds wonderfull. I will see what I can find online. I have been wanting to take them.
Oh and I am sure I can find at least some of these fruits here. I have even seen the green oranges before.

Quote
Suiren, how are your stools now?   Does fruit not cause any digestive upset or acne?
jessica
They are less firm and the color is lighter. My problem tends to be constipation. Less since I gave up a SAD diet but still a little too hard sometimes. The day before yesterday I had diarrhea after eating raw cod fish, but I did not eat any meat yesterday and today I did not have any pain in my intestines. I am still bloated, but not as painful as after certain veggies (rutabaga, ouch!).
I have only been on a clean raw diet for two days, and the four days prior to that I was transitioning while still eating a few problematic foods.
I am steadily clearing up and this morning my jaw dropped when I saw how clear my face was. The past weeks my digestive issues seem to have progressed and my skin had gotten worse again. It was almost clear after the detox with the supplements, but adding more veggies into my diet might have caused it to get worse slowly...who knows.
I also seem to be much more sensitive to all sorts of toxins nowadays.
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Offline Suiren

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2013, 06:18:54 am »
Surien,
You very well CAN get diarrhea from probiotics.
This was the case with my autistic nephew on the GAPS program.

It certainly can be frustrating when our guts don't cooperate with us! I wish you all the best in your journey to learn more about this.

From our experience with the GAPS (Gut and Psychology Syndrome) diet of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, if one's gut is leaky and unhealthy, probiotics need to be added very gradually to prevent reactions. And foods need to be very easy to digest (here's were some lightly cooked and pureed foods come in) in the beginning stages. Fruits and veges that feed the wrong bacteria will aggravate the conditions.

According to GAPS -- while raw animal products are most easy to digest --- the raw fruits and veges are more difficult. Better to juice or cook well. The fiber and starch feed the wrong bacteria which contribute to a leaky gut (and thus immune reactions). The so-called 'bad' bacteria (which should be balanced by the 'good' ones) release toxins that weaken the integrity of the gut wall. Other yeasts and fungus can actually drill holes through the gut lining. In the GAPS program, they are careful to select SCD compliant fruits and veges and cook them well in the beginning. I believ this kind of thing has been discussed before in this forum.
 
The gut needs lots of time to heal -- and it will.
I would encourage anyone seeking a thorough treatment of gut health to get Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride book. Her program is healing the gut in order to successfully cure autism and other learning/mental disorders. She is an advocate of raw meats and raw animal products --- but in the beginning stages of her program, the body may not tolerate raw.

On a further note:  Did anyone read Chris Kresser's recent blog on the book, An Epidemic of Absence?
http://chriskresser.com/the-hygiene-hypothesis-is-modern-disease-associated-with-being-too-clean
 it's a more in-depth look at the role of parasites and bacteria in our health. AND it appears the leading edge research doesn't believe that probiotics actually re-populate the gut. Rather, . . .

Thank you, I hope I can figure something out!
It does not sound pretty (the gut damage).
I really wonder if I have damage to my gut. Since I do experience problems, I decided to finally get checked. I have been putting it off for almost 15 years.

The SIBO protocol is supposedly very similar to the GAPS diet and works the same way. I cooked all my foods while on it. I only ate the foods that were supposedly easy to absorb. I drank bone broth and ate the meat along with carrots from the soup.
Weirdly the bone broth caused me immediate bloating. Not as severe as tubers, but it was noticeable. Whereas something like a banana, causes no reaction.

I haven't been on the raw fruit and meat only Paleo diet long enough to say that these foods are all fine with my stomach. I might have to test more, but SIBO/ GAPS did sadly not make a difference for me.
Maybe my problem is of a different nature and not bacterial overgrowth.

My doctor wants me to get checked for colitis... :o I think it is unlikely, I don't have any symptoms of it. I better not have it or ima have to go murder someone. I'm so tired of diagnoses  :P I don't think I have it though, really...

Anyhow, I am doing the best I can.
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Offline LePatron7

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2013, 06:40:36 am »
Certain veggies can be tougher to digest. If you look over the legal/illegal list on the breaking the vicious cycle website. it says which foods are tougher to absorb.
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I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

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Offline dogman333

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2013, 06:48:01 am »
Suiren,
Sounds like you have definitely been around the block a few times.
Best wishes, and  thanks for continuing to share what you learn so that we all can benefit.
It's so frustrating to being 'doing everything right' and still have issues.
Honestly, the GAPS thing hasn't worked for me or a friend of mine either. The raw meat finally did -- hence, I'm here. Yet I believe the knowledge base of GAPS is basically sound for those with gut issues.

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2013, 06:58:48 am »
Interestingly scd, which is similar to gaps, wasn't optimal for me. But when I eat all raw, just scd legal foods, it works great for me.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2013, 07:12:11 am »
I wish I could have access to the wide variety of raw fruits that GS has. Green oranges... wow!
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2013, 08:55:31 am »
Wai Diet guru does not recommend raw cod at all.  He thinks it has too much parasites.

Try to find raw meat / raw fish that you are sure of, and try doing just raw meat for a few days like 2 to 3, no fruits, no veggies.  See if that calms your guts.
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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2013, 01:06:43 am »
Quote
Wai Diet guru does not recommend raw cod at all.  He thinks it has too much parasites.

Little round worms are very common in cod.  I've seen them myself.  Don't know if they are dangerous to humans or not.

http://images.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=629&q=worms+in+cod&oq=worms+in+cod&gs_l=img.3..0l3j0i24l3.1360.3328.0.3698.12.10.0.2.2.0.81.426.10.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.9.img._vbtMXHFIM8#imgrc=_

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2013, 05:30:31 am »
Has anyone here eaten unfrozen raw cod?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2013, 05:48:06 am »
I don't think there is such thing as unfrozen cod.  As far as I know all commercial boats freeze it as soon as it gets pulled out of the water.  Only if you catch it yourself or know someone who does cod fishing.

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2013, 06:25:35 am »
I bought fresh unfrozen cod from WF a few weeks ago. I didn't experience any problems. I'm curious if anyone else has consumed it unfrozen. Iguana? Troll?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

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Offline Suiren

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Re: Cutting out veggies for some time
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2013, 06:35:32 am »
Wai Diet guru does not recommend raw cod at all.  He thinks it has too much parasites.

Try to find raw meat / raw fish that you are sure of, and try doing just raw meat for a few days like 2 to 3, no fruits, no veggies.  See if that calms your guts.

Hm, I understand the thought behind it, but I will probably crash hard from sudden carb withdrawal.  :o Hypoglycemia might be payjng me a visit. What about having juiced fruit with the meat?

And no more cod...eww..
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