Author Topic: Fructose  (Read 49096 times)

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Offline aariel

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Fructose
« on: September 30, 2009, 07:38:05 am »
Aren't fruit diets bad because of all the fructose?

There are good studies indicating that high fructose intake causes health problems.

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 06:16:35 am »
Those studies that you talk about use very high levels of fructose (at least from all of the ones I have read). All of the studies that I have read also use isolated, unnatural, refined/crystalline fructose, which IS actually different than natural fruit sugar. In fact, fruit sugar, in it's natural form, should really be called laevulose (NOT fructose), where it is bound to other chemical compounds, canceling out any 'negative' qualities. When you isolate a chemical outside of it's natural biochemical sequence, it then becomes more like a drug, not a food, to the human body because the dependent qualities are lost. For example, we all know that benzoylmethylecgonine (cocaine) is a highly addictive substance. But why? Benzoylmethylecgonine is the alkaloid that is derived from coca leaves. This alkaloid is what makes the drug highly addictive. However, in the coca plant itself, this alkaloid is in it's natural state, where the addictive qualities are canceled out by other chemical compounds, therefore it is not recognized by your body as a drug like cocaine is. Go ahead, chew on some coca leaves. It's like drinking coffee and may southern American countries do that legally. It's nothing like loading up on cocaine. This is one of the most overlooked subjects in biochemistry and nutrition. People forget that not all harmful isolated chemicals are harmful in their original form of natural biochemical sequence. So, to say that laevulose (fruit sugar) is the same exact thing as highly refined, isolated, crystalline fructose would be wrong. That would be like saying cocaine is the same thing as coca or that heroine is the same thing as those poppy-seeds on top of that bagel in the market. Also, fruit is not the major source of fructose (laevulose) in the normal diet. Most people don't get much of it in it's natural form. In fact, only certain fruits are high in laevulose, while others are relatively low. Here is a list of foods that contain fructose (natural and refined), in descending order:

• High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS)
• Table Sugar, which is a 50:50 combination of glucose and fructose
• Brown Sugar
• Maple Sugar
• Cane Sugar
• Molasses
• Honey
• Concentrated Fruit Juice
• Fruits
• Vegetables

As you can see, fruits and vegetables are at the very bottom. Now factor in the simple fact that this is laevulose, not refined, isolated, crystalline fructose. Completely different than HFCS in both quantity and biochemical sequence. There is also another important fact that the "all sugar is created equal" crowed misses: Unlike glucose, laevulose is an insulin-independent monosachharide. In a healthy person, fruit does not spike blood sugar violently, like table sugar does. So, in other words, stay away from refined, man-made fructose, but fruit in it's natural form is fine. I think one of the most important thing some raw paleo/meat eaters often overlook is the need for antioxidants in todays environment.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 06:25:12 am by Cthulhu »

Offline van

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2009, 08:52:58 am »

  Fruit and vegetables; at the bottom of the list.  Do you know what percentage of calories of the fruits you eat is from fructose?

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 09:22:32 am »
 Fruit and vegetables; at the bottom of the list.  Do you know what percentage of calories of the fruits you eat is from fructose?

Well, I am a natural bodybuilder/powerlifter, so I do not do zero carb dies. I eat about 3500-3800 calories a day just to maintain my LBM and fitness levels (I lift 5 days a week). Of the 3500-3800 calories that I consume, about 30% come from protein, 40% come from fat (mostly animal fat, filled in with some avocado and coconut fat), and 30% come from carbs. Sometimes my carb intake will go as high as 35-40% on special days or events, but it usually stays around the lower/moderate range (which is 30% or less). My main carb source is very simple: wild, raw honey and organic (mostly wild crafted/organic) fruit. I usually eat my raw honey post-workout or right before lifting weights only. The raw honey for my post-workout shake/meal is needed for an insulin spike in order to pull my body out of a catabolic state (lifting weights is catabolic). I try to make this low fat, high carb shake/meal.  So, for example, if I am consuming 3500 calories, with the macronutrient ratios adjusted for above, then 30% of my calories from carbohydrates would equal about 1050 calories. So, one serving of the raw honey that I eat contains about 60 calories and I try to aim for at least a few hundred grams of carbs for an insulin spike, so I'd say about 480 calories come from honey and then a few hundred more from wild bananas and/or berries, in conjunction with a raw lean protein source. Usually, when I am in a rush, I just throw in a bunch of organic eggs and blend them up with honey and fruit and that is enough for my muscles to prevent catabolism.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:37:58 am by Cthulhu »

Offline aariel

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 10:27:40 am »
Those studies that you talk about use very high levels of fructose (at least from all of the ones I have read). All of the studies that I have read also use isolated, unnatural, refined/crystalline fructose, which IS actually different than natural fruit sugar. In fact, fruit sugar, in it's natural form, should really be called laevulose (NOT fructose), where it is bound to other chemical compounds, canceling out any 'negative' qualities. When you isolate a chemical outside of it's natural biochemical sequence, it then becomes more like a drug, not a food, to the human body because the dependent qualities are lost. For example, we all know that benzoylmethylecgonine (cocaine) is a highly addictive substance. But why? Benzoylmethylecgonine is the alkaloid that is derived from coca leaves. This alkaloid is what makes the drug highly addictive. However, in the coca plant itself, this alkaloid is in it's natural state, where the addictive qualities are canceled out by other chemical compounds, therefore it is not recognized by your body as a drug like cocaine is. Go ahead, chew on some coca leaves. It's like drinking coffee and may southern American countries do that legally. It's nothing like loading up on cocaine. This is one of the most overlooked subjects in biochemistry and nutrition. People forget that not all harmful isolated chemicals are harmful in their original form of natural biochemical sequence. So, to say that laevulose (fruit sugar) is the same exact thing as highly refined, isolated, crystalline fructose would be wrong. That would be like saying cocaine is the same thing as coca or that heroine is the same thing as those poppy-seeds on top of that bagel in the market. Also, fruit is not the major source of fructose (laevulose) in the normal diet. Most people don't get much of it in it's natural form. In fact, only certain fruits are high in laevulose, while others are relatively low. Here is a list of foods that contain fructose (natural and refined), in descending order:

• High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS)
• Table Sugar, which is a 50:50 combination of glucose and fructose
• Brown Sugar
• Maple Sugar
• Cane Sugar
• Molasses
• Honey
• Concentrated Fruit Juice
• Fruits
• Vegetables

As you can see, fruits and vegetables are at the very bottom. Now factor in the simple fact that this is laevulose, not refined, isolated, crystalline fructose. Completely different than HFCS in both quantity and biochemical sequence. There is also another important fact that the "all sugar is created equal" crowed misses: Unlike glucose, laevulose is an insulin-independent monosachharide. In a healthy person, fruit does not spike blood sugar violently, like table sugar does. So, in other words, stay away from refined, man-made fructose, but fruit in it's natural form is fine. I think one of the most important thing some raw paleo/meat eaters often overlook is the need for antioxidants in todays environment.

I agree that reductionist principles in science often result in studies that have no relevancy in the real world. I've never seen a study comparing crystalline fructose with a diet containing an equivalent amount of bound fructose in the form of whole fruit--not that I've done an exhaustive search of the literature.

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 06:47:17 pm »
Table of Fruits and sugar (including fructose) :

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/fruits_table.html

Offline tammy123

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 11:16:43 pm »
As far as I know everything should be required in equally quantity and fructose is one of the very important source as it should not be taken too much, Only the required quantity which is necessary.

Thanks

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 03:46:34 am »
High fructose fruits and honeys should be rather limited.
All sorts of berries, dark honeys have got a good glucose/fructose ratio. Plums, for example, are very good, because they've got a lot of glucose and only a little bit of fructose.
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Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 04:19:53 am »
I'm glad about this thread and especially the point about "laevulose" - I have never heard that reference before, but the fact that it implies appropriate, biological complexification by nature is refreshing to hear.

There is a lot of damning of (even naturally-occurring) fructose in many places (saying things like fructose glycates in the hepatic portal vein, and up to 10 times more than glucose), so this point about laevulose seems like some kind of vindication.

It's true that fructose/laevulose invokes glucagon release, isn't it (counter-balancing the insulin invocation by glucose)? So, glucagon vs insulin is a happy balance...

@Cthulhu: Do you find that the weak organic acids in fruits compromise your tooth enamel? Many fruitarians notice that (especially with unripe fruit) outside the context of RAF, teeth are destroyed. I minimise fruit/honey because of the organic acids, while I'm trying to find the path to tooth healing through RAF.
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

Offline Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 05:14:56 am »
Have you seen this blogpost Mr. BBQ?

I think it is great!
 
I'm looking for tooth-healing too, after I hurt ed my teeths with too much nuts (raw omnivore). Now I know, nuts are really bad for your teeth.  -X

And the good thing is,
they can heal! Even if you have gotten cavities!  ;D

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/reversing-tooth-decay.html

Inger

Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2010, 06:00:07 am »
Servus Inger,

Es freut mich Sie kennen zu lernen - schade dass Sie sind verheiratet (hehe, just kidding).

Very nice of you to relate that to me, thanks. I've spent the last couple of years researching tooth healing and it's a very interesting subject with many variables, particularly the ability to uptake fat-soluble vitamins and minerals (bile is important), as well as keeping blood sugar in a tight range. Also, there is the endocrinological perspective of keeping different hormones balanced, maybe with a properly active metabolism/thyroid.

One thing that I learned from WAPF is that collagen is important for bone/teeth healing, which they recommend in the form of bone broths, although of course, that's cooked. I make raw bone meal (labour intensive), although I'm still thinking of a way to raw process cartilage - maybe some kind of garden shredder, I don't know!

PaleoPhil and Lex (maybe others) have sealed/healed their enamel with raw zero-carb, although it's just not possible for me without negative effects, particularly constipation. I eat organ meats and minced fat with chunky meat every day (also, pastured egg yolks and high-vitamin butter oil with a D3 supplement), which has made a slight different, but not much - I think it takes time. I tried bone broths, which made a big difference but they trigger headaches (due to free glutamates in the gelatine).

I've seen most of the blogs about tooth healing, and I respect Stephen's posts because he does acknowledge the potential for "biliary insufficiency". Interestingly, the glycine in collagen is used to conjugate bile, so eating a lot of collagen contributes to bile production.

There are new answers every day...and then more questions!

Bis zum naechsten Mal...

Scotty
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Offline chucky

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2010, 02:42:40 pm »
I know that anything that has more fructose than glycose causes problems for me. I can eat table sugar just fine but no fruit with higher fructose ratio to glycose.  Symptoms vary from pain to mental childness ( very annoying ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption

Offline Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2010, 04:22:00 pm »
Servus, Herr Barbeque!  ;)

Wie cool, Sie sprechen auch Deutsch!  ;D


You know what? I tried the bone-broth thing my self one week ago, cooking bones from pastured beefbones a few hours. I got the exactly same reaction as you. Quite terrible headaches! I never have headaches, so it had to be the bonebroth. So strange ???! Now I know why.

I got my first cavities as a 30 year old, after starting raw  :'(.  After reading this blogpost I am sure it was the nuts. And maybe dried mangos too. I ate a lot of them both.

And as a kid we had very poor food, like potatoes and porridge, homemade bread,  salted herring every day.  We was 15 kids, that's why. But we all had to take cod liver oil every singel day (I loved the taste of it by the way)! I think that saved our teeth's. And my mom also cared that we got enough sun, We always played in the garden, naked.  No one from us had cavities as kids. Ever. And we do got some Candy's sometimes.

(Entschuldige mein Englisch, puh, die ist einfach schrecklig.. )

Liebe Grüße von Inger
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 04:28:38 pm by Inger »

Offline Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2010, 04:27:29 pm »
Hello Jarnapal,

Quote
I know that anything that has more fructose than glucose causes problems for me. I can eat table sugar just fine but no fruit with higher fructose ratio to glucose.  Symptoms vary from pain to mental childness ( very annoying ).

Mental childness...?  ???  *help*
Have to take a look at this link. I do not feel good from too much fructose eather. Not at all.  -[

Inger

Offline Hans89

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2010, 07:07:29 pm »
And as a kid we had very poor food, like potatoes and porridge, homemade bread,  salted herring every day.  We was 15 kids, that's why. But we all had to take cod liver oil every singel day (I loved the taste of it by the way)! I think that saved our teeth's. And my mom also cared that we got enough sun, We always played in the garden, naked.  No one from us had cavities as kids. Ever. And we do got some Candy's sometimes.

That diet sounds wonderful in comparison to what most kids eat nowadays...

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2010, 09:37:21 pm »


I got my first cavities as a 30 year old, after starting raw  :'(.  After reading this blogpost I am sure it was the nuts. And maybe dried mangos too. I ate a lot of them both.



Pretty much all raw vegans end up trying the "nuts + dried fruit" diet, and they say that it destroys their health.  Dried fruit is one of the most dangerous foods out there.  Nuts are bad too, if you overindulge, but dried fruit is much, much worse.  I have had serious health problems from dried fruit.  It literally turned my hair gray. 


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Re: Fructose
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2010, 09:39:57 pm »
Dried fruit contains sulphurites as a preservative. Foul stuff. I also used to eat some dried fruit as a raw vegan/fruitarian. Fortunately, I had the sense, at the time, to mainly focus on non-dried fruit, not that that helped much, either, re improving my health.
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Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2010, 11:44:27 pm »
Touché! ;-)) (genau!)

Nuts become a dense calorie/energy source for raw vegans, so they're a "natural" (hehe) choice - I also blame them for the destruction of my teeth and general health, particularly blood sugar control - they are too high in phytates, even when soaked and of course, they are a source of rancid PUFAs (especially unshelled). Humans eating nuts as a source of nourishment is a terrible practice...Hindsight is always 20/20 though I suppose, so I forgive my self!

Thankfully, I sensed the destructiveness of dried fruits early on, with their concentrated sugars due to no water content/bulk. Raisins are always coated with rancid veggie oils, which is why I opted for organic currants instead (not the load of tartaric acid either to further destroy teeth).

The perpetuation of raw veganism absolutely undermines human rights, as does the conventional food pyramid, which is the reason that I expose everyone to my raw meat-eating regardless of their uninquisitive prejudice (nobody ever asks me why out of natural curiosity!).

Raw veganism represents insane ideology over wellbeing and their is certainly money to be made. It reminds me of when I was young and I read about this peanut butter that made you fly (in the back of a Superman comic) - I thought that was amazing and dreamed about buying some at the time (I was about 5 years old!). I certainly didn't know about aflatoxins back then!
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Offline Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2010, 01:22:38 am »
Oh, THANK GOD I was never raw vegan!
No no  :). I always included animals in my raw diet. But I was still eating a lot of nuts and dried fruits. Only organic high quality stuff without sulphurites or veg.oil. But it still was not good for my teeth.  :'(

Have you all gone through this raw vegan thing, Tyler, MrBBQ, cherimoya_kid?

Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2010, 02:33:24 am »
Pretty much. I had several years of vegetarian(80% raw vegan(Hay Diet), that is), then 100% raw vegan then 100% fruitarian. I had no choice as my particular condition(adrenal burnout) had a very common symptom that any cooked animal foods would become increasingly more difficult to digest, resulting in agonising stomach-aches half an hour after eating such foods.To this day, cooked plant foods have a much lesser negative effect on me than cooked animal foods.
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Offline Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2010, 02:42:42 am »
Tyler, how long was you raw vegan? How long fruitarian?


Why do you change your WOE?
and when, was it difficult? (because vegans tend to have this "ethic" thing)


How long have you been eating raw paleo?


 :) Inger
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 10:48:52 pm by TylerDurden »

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2010, 02:51:56 am »
I've been eating rawpalaeo for 8 years and some months(started in late February 2002). For 6 months before that I was doing the Primal Diet. I was doing raw vegetarian for 3+ years(Hay Diet meaning 80% raw vegan, 20% cooked animal foods), then 100% raw vegan for 2 years(most of which involved 80%+ fruits) and 100% fruitarian for a year or so, followed by what I thought was an Instincto Diet for 2-3 months but was nothing but(ie processed sushi products from supermarkets, smoked fish/meat etc.), then switched to the Primal Diet until the raw dairy nearly killed me.
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Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2010, 04:38:52 am »
I was breast-fed for two years by a very maternal mother, then raised on whatever cheap cuts of meat and eggs were available, as well as sweet teas (British Empire style!) and tinned beans/spaghetti, crispy-crinkly chips in lard that weren't brown and so soft in the middle (I still think my mum's chips were the best!), curries etc.

I spent my youth drinking, smoking and experimenting with psychedelics, street/club drugs (as well as harder stuff at after-parties) etc. but in much more moderation than my crazed cronies. Thankfully, I managed to maintain a good measure of academia and self-teaching, as well as physical training, while also somehow keeping my day job. I was also drumming in a band for a few years, so my life was characterised by late nights and early mornings.

My party lifestyle ended around 4 years ago, when I started researching tooth decay (I was addicted to citrus fruits and OJ!) and stumbled on the work of Weston A. Price. I accepted the healing principles (including raw animal products), although I accidentally read some "green smoothie" recovery anecdotes on raw vegan forums and decided that eating raw organic plants/fruits would be easier than finding/eating raw grass-fed animal produce. I gained some more tooth cavities and the delusion came to an end 2 years later when I decided that my health was declining, even though the black shadows under my eyes had long-disappeared. I weighed 55kg - a shadow of my former curry-munching self.

I've been eating pretty strictly raw paleo for a year now (with great help from my very good contemporaries here) and I can certainly say that it's still a very steep learning curve. I eat liver and heart every day, either frozen-grated (then warmed) or dried (as "pet treats", which I sometimes throw the dog next door, who loves me!), along with a couple of handfuls of tough meats and 4 handfuls of minced/melted bulk fat. I drink raw, local biodynamic/wild honey in warm water with some pollen (through a straw), as well as low-acid fruits and maybe some berries each day - I rinse my mouth with sodium bicarbonate before and after all fruits to neutralise acids.

I have problems with my basal metabolic rate and digestion whenever I restrict carbohydrates, so at this juncture, fruit/honey is welcome. I experimented with cooked tubers, which were very warming/thermogenic, but I found the blood glucose crashes too much, as well as losing more enamel.

I will never eat another nut again - maybe one or two macadamias (low PUFA), but that's it.

One of my objectives now is to find a way to eat collagen-rich raw cartilage to facilitate skin, tooth/bone and systemic repair, as well as its anti-inflammatory effect.

I also entertain the practice of emptying the stones and debris from the biliary system, which I consider to be the most potent healing basis on which everything else rests.
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

Offline Inger

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2010, 05:06:43 am »
Thanks guys, thanks so much!

I so much appreciate all this info!  :-*


Tyler, you said you tried "instinkto". Did you tried cassia, too? I was eating cassia every day for about two years. Gave me very loose bowel movements etc. I wonder if this also demineralized me and so my teeth's too?
 :o about the raw dairy almost killing you.. do you mind if I ask, what happend!?


MrBBQ,
tough, how you tried Fruitarian that long. You must have looked terrible. 55 kg.  :(
I'm totally with you on this nut-thing. Never eat them anymore myself, too (except of a seldom, few macadamias and I also tried Kenari-nuts this week, they are wild-growed nuts, but I got a strange feeling in my mouth after just a few so I think I will leave them)!  -[  Healthy teeth's is just so important! I hate to have any kind of fillings in my mouth! It cannot be healthy. I have only one little filling, cement. I refuse to do anything with my other cavities, I believe they will heal, I do.  :) They do not hurt eather, if I eat properly.  ;)  (if not.. i suffer terrible tootache  :'( )

Have you tried bone-marrow? It is my last favorite. I started to eat it one week ago, and from this day on my wrist (hand) have healed! It was overwrought due to my work, it did not wanted to heal.. I had this issue this whole winter. It was annoying, I could hardly brush my teeth without my wrist hurting (right hand, BTW). The next day after eating Marrow first time in my life, I looked at my wrist.. the swelling was gone..! And it did not come back after that day, it is over one week ago. I have not changed anything else. I believe it was the Marrow, that helped with the healing. Raw, grassfed marrow. Strange.. huh?  :)

Inger



Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fructose
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2010, 05:32:46 am »
Hehe, I wasn't necessarily a fruitarian, or for that long - I was eating everything like sprouts, nuts/seeds (often as milks), cold-pressed oils like coconut/cocoa butter, salads etc. I was very lean, but I didn't necessarily look terrible - just very lean and a bit underweight. I had actually been that weight when I was a regular swimmer, so I was half-accustomed to it.

I agree that bone marrow is great (very easy to melt) and very healing. Thankfully, I get 2 long bones every week for nothing, so I have a free marrow treat twice per week. I also grind up bones for minerals/collagen, which I usually combine with the marrow.

I weigh 65kg now, so I feel much better/stronger, but I can bet that now I'm off hi-carbs (bananas are nasty), I'll lose weight again and start to get colder.

I'm pretty sure that my face is widening, especially since eating liver every day, which is consistent with others' experiences. My teeth also seem to have a very slight movement in them sometimes as if they're moving - maybe it's my imagination. It's weird because my teeth feel more fixed in my jaw (more solid bite), yet the tooth dentine/enamel is still very sensitive. I wonder if there's a system of priorities whereby the body favours certain tissues. Also, when I was first eating a lot of organs, my teeth seemed to feel as solid as a rock, but then the effect seemed to diminish as if I'd become accustomed to it, or something turned sour. I suppose that 1 year after a lot of malnourishment is too early to identify. One can only do one's best.

Some of my old cavities are no longer active and the tissue is hard not soft, but the newer ones hurt very often.

I thank my cavities because they originally caused me to pursue the healing arts, for both myself and others/family. I do my best in any given situation! ;-))
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...