Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Josh on October 09, 2009, 04:24:12 am
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I'm going to attempt to summarise my personal thoughts so far on shoes for people who are looking at 'paleo lifestyle' and general health and good posture. I hope that people will add their thoughts.
Before I begin, I should mention that I have mortons foot structure which causes my feet to 'lean' inwards and causes knock on problems throughout the whole body. It is well worth checking to see if you have this. There is a link to diagnose and deal with the problem here http://www.triggerpointbook.com/mortons.htm (http://www.triggerpointbook.com/mortons.htm)
I always knew I had broad feet, but since starting to wear wide 'barefoot' type shoes I have discovered that my feet are in fact naturally very wide and they have been held compressed for years by too narrow shoes. It is my hope that eventually the structure will improve and I'll be able to walk barefoot without problems.
There are (at least) 2 types of shoes that I feel may be of interest to people here:
Active footwear
I'm using this category for the type of shoe that attempts to replicate walking barefoot on a slightly uneven surface. They have a pad widget thing in the heel which causes an 'uneven' impact of the heel and which makes the whole foot roll as you step, placing the heel down first and rolling to the toes. It is often sold as 'toning the thighs' which it might well do, but for me the most interesting aspect is that they create a rolling motion walking which stretches the whole skeletal system, and stretches and exercises various muscle groups. Also they claim that problems are caused by walking on concrete all the time causing shocks along the spine and that these shoes avoid the problem.
Shoes in this category: MBT, Skechers 'shape ups', RYN footwear.
MBT
these are the only shoes I have owned. I had them for 3 years of solid use before they gave out. When walking in them I felt spinal muscles in my lumbar region stretching and articulating and they stretched my hamstrings. They also threw problems in my neck into focus. My analogy is that the body is like a whip...if one part of the whip straightens i.e. the femoral muscles lengthen and the legs straighten, the whip is cracked and the upper body attempts to straighten and improve posture. So it's good to improve one part, but it will force you to look at other parts of the body.
I knew about trigger point therapy at this time and was working out trigger points in muscles that needed stretching.
Potential advantages Avoiding the repetitive motion of walking on a flat surface, Avoiding putative problems with the impact of walking on concrete, stretching the muscular and skeletal system, maybe simulates one of the natural modes of walking. My pair were extremely hard wearing. They lasted for 3 years of serious use including a stint as running shoes, building services work shoes and more or less constant street wear. So despite the price tag in a sense they were good value. However people are saying the new ones are not as well made so look into this if you consider them.
Potential disadvantages I've increasingly come to think that this rolling motion is not the be all and end all of 'natural walking'. A lot of the videos of the savannah show it as being quite flat hard ground. More on this later. So the rolling motion may in itself create a repetitive stress.
Add to this the fact that the shoe is not the same as natural walking, so the devil is in the details...if part of the movement is slightly wrong it might cause an unnatural stress on some structure in the body.
Also the majority of people have some postural problem or other caused by trigger points holding muscles shortened, other injuries etc. If they don't know how to treat themself in other ways, I feel the shoes may exaggerate problems and cause potentially serious discomfort and harm over time.
The shoes are also designed to be worn tight to stay on. I don't like this as I feel strongly now that this harms the feet. My feet are very wide as I said so YMMV, but I think MBT acknowledge that they are tight.
Cost...they're bloody expensive
Summary - Despite a long list of disadvantages I feel they might be worth considering if you've got the money as a second pair of shoes to wear some of the time. I'm not sure about the tightness thing...someone with narrow feet might be ok, but they will fuck up broad feet more than normal shoes.
If this problem could be somehow removed I think it would be good for the body to go through this range of motion some of the time, and it would cut down potential impact problems from concrete which would be a good way of hedging bets.
Skechers active summary
I haven't tried a pair of these, but would like to try these on if I see them. They potentially have some of the advantages and disadvantages of MBT, but I don't think they have the same level of research so that could be a concern, and no doubt will not be as hard wearing. Word on the web is that they're more comfortable so maybe they're broader. They're also cheaper, so if they fit well I might get one as a second pair of shoes, however I would definitely not wear them all the time.
RYN active summary
I can't find out what they claim for these as the site's down, but they look similar to the other two. Again might be worth a try if they're comfortable but proceed with caution.
Part 2 coming next time...
In the meantime check out the feet on this. It's half monkey but still food for thought.
http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blogs/news/chiefeditor/earliest-human-ancestor-picture.jpg
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Actually this might belong in health dunno...maybe move it if you need to
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I've been wearing a pair of vivo barefoot terra plana shoes for about 4 months and absolutely love them, in fact the idea of wearing think soled trainers again or something with any sole really doesnt appeal. I'm also the first to admit that I thought they were a bit gimmicky at first, the only down side is living in a concrete city, because after all whatever the footwear its always going to be a battle to find the 'perfect' scenario.
ps. im impressed with all your technical jargon josh! btw, way exactly is an MBT shoe.......of course i could just google :)
pps. seriously love these shoes i have, but word to anyone it takes a little while to get used to them, just as walking around on concrete all the time barefoot probably would... can't wait to get back out the the countryside!! :D
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dave, i've had vivo barefoots for about a year now and am also thoroughly pleased. it feels like im wearing blocks on my feet if i wear any other shoes now. highly recommended
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Yup, I have them too and am well pleased. They are expensive but worth it for me, especially since they wear much slower than Nike running shoes, Rockport shoes, etc.
I haven't tried the Vibram shoes yet. Their early styles that were available at the time I bought the Vivos were just too weird looking. Has anyone tried both that might offer comparison comments?
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Hah...you have neatly preempted part 2. I bought some vivo barefoot couple of days ago which inspired this post. So I guess I'm preaching to the choir.
Barefoot shoes
I'm using this to mean shoes with a thin sole that are as close to walking barefoot as possible.
Shoes in this category: Kung-fu shoes, Vivo barefoot, Vibram 5 fingers, Sandals, Slip ons
I've become increasingly convinced that barefoot type shoes are the best option even on concrete. The following article goes into it well...when your feet strike the ground the soft pad in your sole absorbs the shock.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-trainers-Are-expensive-running-shoes-waste-money.html
I've been wearing a cheap pair of British Knights slip ons for 6 months and my feet have got used to no padding. It feels really good. I don't think it's perfect to be walking on flat, hard concrete all the time, but I think MBT's horror stories about shocks up the spine are exaggerated. It feels subjectively ok to have that gentle shock. So there may be some rsi's or long term problems from the concrete, but I feel for me it is the best compromise. When I wear shoes with any heel or padding now it feels that my natural posture is distorted, and that the cushioning is squashing my feet unnaturally. To me these problems seem more real than putative problems from the concrete. Also as I said, it looks like savannah ground is fairly flat and compressed so not that extreme difference.
Kung fu shoes
Following Kyle's tip, I had a look into kung fu shoes and ended up with some feiyue high top shoes.
Advantages This brand seem very well made, and I feel that they would last well. They are also economical as they were £19 (uk). The rubber sole is flexible and allows you to feel the floor. They have the right amount of grip for walking about town. They look good if you're into bohemian fashion or converse shoes at all.
Disadvantages These shoes are canvas so will let in the rain. Ok for running, but not great for rainy days in town. They're not smart shoes obviously. I couldn't wear them as even the 12s are too narrow.
Summary These seem like excellent shoes. I would definitely wear them if they fit me for running and casual use. I would say try them on though as they are probably narrow even for average westeners. Other brands may be worth considering as well.
Rope soled tai chi slippers - these seem excellent for wearing indoors, but again I had a problem with the size.
Vivo Barefoot
These shoes are designed to be close to barefoot, and have a puncture resistant sole. They also use natural dyes.
Advantages They appear to be very well made, and I think they will last out well. They're extremely comfortable. They're modelled to the shape of a spread out foot so no squashing. They can be smart enough to wear for most occasions, office work etc and trainers are also available. The cheapest ones are £80 which compares well with normal well made shoes, although I found that only the boots suited my feet. Models can be waterproof or have air holes e.g. trainers.
Disadvantages Mainly cost really. I think they're good value, but would prefer to spend less for a pair of running shoes to abuse. However I suppose serious running shoes are a similar price. General disadvantages of barefoot shoes. My boots are somewhat sweatier than canvas shoes but this is natural.
Summary Very good option for most purposes.
Vibram 5 fingers
These are designed with individual toes and have a vibram puncture resistant sole. Untried, but potential disadvantages might be the shapes not right for everyones foot..it's an average foot. Also, they are fully artificial materials which I don't really like. I just like natural for feel.
Sandals
Old skool sandals i.e. not the trainer type have a thin sole. I haven't tried these but they might be a good option for some. They seem good for allowing the foot to spread. Potential disadvantages are cold if you don't live in a warm climate, not considered smart or fashionable, not good for fighting.
Native running sandals seem worth a look e.g. http://barefootted.com/shop/
Cheap canvas shoes are also worth considering if you can get a pair to fit. I would make sure they have thin soles and no padding though as they vary. These do not last long though.
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1) I don't wear shoes in the house or in the yard.
2) I wear flip-flops (as thin & light as possible) until there is snow on the ground, regardless of how cold it is outside. I often take these off when I get to where ever it is I'm going.
3) Exceptions are if I take my lady dancing or am playing a gig that calls for something more formal, in which case I have a pair of cool black leather boots and a pair of soft-soled wing-tips.
No shoes are the best shoes.
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I'm currently wearing mocassins, which you can order from various outlets online. They still make the leather variety (no rubber on the bottom, just leather and a little bit of padding, ~1/8in). ~$35 for a pair, which were a bit narrow at first but have widened over time. I suspect this is a ripoff, as the shoe is so incredibly basic that the only thing they could be charging for is the novelty. I think I'll make my own when these wear out and save some cash.
I had to make a compromise between barefoot and work, and these seem to do the job. They don't look hugely out of the ordinary but since they're nothing but a little bit of leather wrapping your foot, they still let you walk naturally.
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Good stuff at barefootrunner.com, e.g. water shoes
http://www.barefootrunner.com/2009/03/review-wateraqua-shoes/
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What color are the moccasins?
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Which moccasins were they? $35 is cheap for leather moccasins. I have a cheap pair myself, but they come off too easily and are not sufficiently water resistant to be used anywhere other than around the house. Real moccasins that cover the ankle would solve those problems, but tend to be expensive and might be a bit of a pain to put on and take off, especially if they require tying laces.
Ah, this site has what I was looking for -- reviews of the Vivo and Vibram and rates the Vivo slightly higher (6 stars vs. 5):
http://www.barefootrunner.com/2009/03/review-terra-plana-vivobarefoot-aqua/
http://www.barefootrunner.com/2009/03/review-vibram-fivefingers-classic/
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The moccasins are "Minnetonka", which must be some sweatshop somewhere because there's a huge number of online stores selling them.
http://www.minnetonka-by-mail.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=231 are what I bought. I cut off the frills because, well, they're frills for god's sake, and have been wearing them everywhere. My wife got a pair and runs in them. (she left the frills on)
IF you buy a pair of these you'll know what I'm talking about re: ripoff. This is literally a leather footwrap with about 1/8" of foam in the bottom. I could easily replicate the cuts necessary. I think you can buy a side of leather for around $75, which is about 20 sq ft. Make three pairs of moccasins out of it and you come out ahead.
If you don't want to take the time to do that, though, the ones I linked are actually pretty nice.
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I like acupressure sandals, or walking on dry river rocks.
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IF you buy a pair of these you'll know what I'm talking about re: ripoff. This is literally a leather footwrap with about 1/8" of foam in the bottom. I could easily replicate the cuts necessary. I think you can buy a side of leather for around $75, which is about 20 sq ft. Make three pairs of moccasins out of it and you come out ahead.
If you don't want to take the time to do that, though, the ones I linked are actually pretty nice.
The barefoot runner guy makes soles out of vibram for his sandals. I was thinking of a mocassin type thing with a vibram sole and a toggle tie. Kind of like an aqua shoe but made of leather. I'll try when I have time.
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There's another new barefoot-style shoe out that Barefoot Ted likes, though it's still in development and not sold many places yet--the Feelmax line of shoes. Barefoot Ted thinks the Feelmax Niesa in particular has very good potential.
Feelmax
http://www.feelmax.com/index.php?lang=en
"According to Christopher McDougall, author of "Born to Run," the real danger to our feet is over-protecting them. We allow our feet to get weak, and then we wonder why they ache. Feet are like any other part of the body -- the more you challenge them, the stronger they'll get. And the stronger they are, the better they'll feel.
Whenever the question comes up about whether everyone is suited for a Feelmax shoe, I'd say, 'of course! Your foot will tell you what to do. Your foot knows more than any doctor. When it's time for a rest, your foot will tell you. Listen to your feet, and you'll be fine. The reason we have problems is because we muffle our feet -- we bury them in so much cushioning and padding that they can't get in touch with the world, or with us." - Christopher McDougall
Last Updated ( Tuesday, 08 September 2009 14:49 )
Feelmax USA retailer: Outdoor Tactical
http://outdoortactical.com/Feelmax.html
Feelmax footwear is the lightest footwear on the market - each shoe weighs less than 100 grams. The shoes fit almost as tightly as a sock, which makes them extremely comfortable to wear. The shaping of the human foot and the consequent development of our way of walking took approximately four million years. Over the last few millennia, we have restricted th eoperation of our feet and departed from our atural way of walking by wearing shoes. The Finnish company Feelmax Oy has enabled a return to the natural by developing the unique Feelmaxshoes - pioneers of a new footwear culture - which simulate walking barefoot.
The purpose of Feelmax footwear is to promote the positive effects of being barefoot on the operation and control of the feet, and consequently the whole body.
Running in Seattle with FeelMax Shoes
http://barefootted.com/2009/01/running-in-seattle-with-feelmax-shoes.html
I am testing a new version that will be released in Europe in June this year. I have not tried the earlier FeelMax shoes.
The new version name is NIESA and I believe it has been improved.
So far, I am very impressed with the sole. The feel is superb...as close to barefoot as I have experienced. The puncture protection is amazing. Sharp points do not go through. I took a very thin and sharp piece of metal and tried to push it through the sole with my hand on the other side. It did not go through, nor did my hand feel the sharp point.
On sizing, I am not sure what to say. Mine have a new velcro top piece that must help it fit better. Mine seem a little big even though they are the right size, yet a little big is not a problem. It allows my foot to really move like a foot inside. I would guess they run big, but I believe I am using a prototype.
These shoes feel like the finest pair of long lasting moccasins. Run through the woods. Feel the woods without puncture wounds.
I am very impressed with this shoe. I believe FeelMax is pushing the envelope with a design that works with cutting edge materials. Bravo FeelMax!
Barefoot Ted
Monday, January 26, 2009
HOWEVER, there is this caveat:
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Hello, Ted.
You said:
FeelMaxes don't force my foot at all...and I have a wide foot too.
I've just got some new Niesas that are more than long enough for me, but much too narrow at the wide part of the foot (by 2cm or so), so much so I'll probably sell them on as they are not comfortable.
I bought these shoes largely on the basis of all the praise you wrote here about them.
The sole is good and thin, but then why did they put in a spongey insole, and glue it at the toe so you can't even remove it cleanly? I agree with you that we want thin soles so why have they given us the best thin sole then added unwanted padding: these are shoes for people who don't want padding, right?
If these things were fixed, I think I would like these shoes. As it is, yet another pair of uncomfortable shoes.
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Blogger Barefoot Ted said...
I have to say that the production model I received was a little too narrow for me too, and thus I can't wear them.
Jarno told me that they are going to make a wider version...we shall see.
BFT
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Anonymous said...
try this link for a size reference:
http://www.feelmax.com/Kokotaulukko.pdf
Monday, August 31, 2009
Another good review:
Feelmax Niesa Black Sneaker
http://www.lovethoseshoes.com/cart/prod.asp?ProdID=3688
Feelmax are a barefooters dream! The Niesa Black Shoe features the classic Feelmax ultra thin 1mm special fabric sole, with a super light weight and flexible upper.
The Niesa Black Shoe is easy to slip into and allows the foot to sit snugly into the design like a sock. Thanks to the extremely thin sole, the sense of feeling barefoot in the boot remains as natural as possible. Barefooting in Feelmax enables the wearer to sense changes in the ground easily and connect to the environment surrounding them. Perfect for outdoor activities, yoga, pilates and everyday use.
Fitting Guide : We think that the Feelmax are true to size so go with your normal size. They are meant to fit snugly like a sock to achieve maximum barefoot benefits!
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Well, if your walking on cement or hard surfaces you need cushion to avoid knee joint pain and injuries. Soft surfaces don't need padding or footwear unless its too cold. With all the cement, I have been doing best wearing shoes like a type new balances. If there was nothing but grass and dirt I would wear shoes made out of animal skins.
Here's what kind of shoe I did the best with so far. Not it exactly but close to it...To each his own though, evryone's foot is different.
http://www.zappos.com/n/p/p/7497757/c/3.html
http://www.housershoes.com/products/26026/shoe.html
http://www.finishline.com/store/catalog/product.jsp?sourceid=shopping&productId=prod634326&NEW%20BALANCE&cid=48&SID=509c287c01c8fb5d73ccfde5b2f73ff7834a33d0
I had a pair of the last link. Exactly it! I think! Awesome shoe!
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There's another new barefoot-style shoe out that Barefoot Ted likes, though it's still in development and not sold many places yet--the Feelmax line of shoes. Barefoot Ted thinks the Feelmax Niesa in particular has very good potential.
Hi Phil,
In line with my recent interest in barefoot running (as discussed elsewhere) and following my reading of Born To Run, I have a growing collection of 'minimalist' shoes. I have a pair of Vibram Fivefinger KSOs, a pair of Vivo Barefoot Lesotho's, some cheap water shoes, a pair of tai chi shoes AND my new pair of Feelmax Niesas!
They all have their individual strengths and weaknesses. The natural toe spread offered by the KSOs is great and these would be my running shoe of choice. The Niesas, I am finding the most sensitive to the ground and the 1mm sole is truly amazing. I am using these for walking whilst still in my early stages of building up my foot strength after years of normal restrictive footwear. Like some reviewers, I do find that the Niesa's are indeed too narrow in the toebox and are restricting my toe spread. In addition to being a little uncomfortable, I would expect this to be potentially damaging to posture and running technique. The Vivo Barefoots and tai chi shoes I would not consider serious 'barefoot' shoes but provide a good balance in being a huge improvement over ordinary shoes in this respect whilst also offering a fashionable look that won't draw unwanted attention. The lesotho, particularly, can even be worn as a work shoe in the office! The water shoes, although by far the cheapest at around £10, are perhaps the best overall in that the sole is sufficiently thin, sensitive and flexible, the fit sufficiently wide and the look acceptable (although a little slipper-like).
That's my own experiences anyway. I hope helpful to some!
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Well, if your walking on cement or hard surfaces you need cushion to avoid knee joint pain and injuries. Soft surfaces don't need padding or footwear unless its too cold. With all the cement, I have been doing best wearing shoes like a type new balances. If there was nothing but grass and dirt I would wear shoes made out of animal skins.
Most bare foot runners prefer hard surfaces like tarmac, concrete. There is sufficient cushioning when running on hard surfaces if you know how to run correctly or have grown up running shoeless.
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Most bare foot runners prefer hard surfaces like tarmac, concrete. There is sufficient cushioning when running on hard surfaces if you know how to run correctly or have grown up running shoeless.
I agree. Dried compacted mud can be just as hard as concrete such as that which haile gebrselassie ran 10 miles to school and back on each day. It's not the surface that's important. It's the running technique, body posture and footwear (or lack thereof).
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Most bare foot runners prefer hard surfaces like tarmac, concrete. There is sufficient cushioning when running on hard surfaces if you know how to run correctly or have grown up running shoeless.
Yes, I was surprised at how soft and pleasant standard asphalt is to run on. Concrete is less so, but still quite doable. The biggest problem in my area is that people smash bottles onto the streets for some reason, and the broken glass accumulates in the gutters and on the sidewalks.
Thanks for the useful review, Michael. It is for the reasons you cited that Vivo Barefoots are currently my main shoe. They are sufficiently "normal" looking that I wear them to work every day and I don't do a lot of running--mostly walking--so they are sufficient for my modest exercising needs. I do like the sound of the thinner Niesa soles, however, and am hoping that their future models will be better designed. The current styles are a bit too casual looking, but I think I could get away with wearing black or brown ones at work without too much comment.
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I agree. Dried compacted mud can be just as hard as concrete
i don't think so, not unless frozen maybe, you can hammer a nail through that mud, not croncrete
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i don't think so, not unless frozen maybe, you can hammer a nail through that mud, not croncrete
But, for the purposes of which we're talking - foot impact and resultant bodily vibrational shock during walking/running - I think the degree of hardness between the two materials is comparative.
Yes, I was surprised at how soft and pleasant standard asphalt is to run on. Concrete is less so, but still quite doable. The biggest problem in my area is that people smash bottles onto the streets for some reason, and the broken glass accumulates in the gutters and on the sidewalks.
Yes, it's a real problem everywhere unfortunately. In addition to pet excrement I might add! For these reasons, I intend only going native barefoot in the wilds.
Thanks for the useful review, Michael. It is for the reasons you cited that Vivo Barefoots are currently my main shoe. They are sufficiently "normal" looking that I wear them to work every day and I don't do a lot of running--mostly walking--so they are sufficient for my modest exercising needs. I do like the sound of the thinner Niesa soles, however, and am hoping that their future models will be better designed. The current styles are a bit too casual looking, but I think I could get away with wearing black or brown ones at work without too much comment.
You're welcome. The current Niesas are too casual for work. They do look like trainers (sneakers) when worn. I, too, hope they add and improve their range. I'm positive they will do so in the future. The sole is definitely a good start! I also walk far more than run and prefer the Niesas by a mile as an exercise shoe compared to the Vivo Barefoots which I wear purely for aesthetic reasons.
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Are there any barefoot-style boots or shoes that have good traction on snow and ice? One of the downsides to Vivo Barefoots, water shoes and kayak boots is that it's fairly slippery to walk in them on ice and snow.
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Anyone tried soft star shoes, esp the 'run amok' model for running?
http://www.softstarshoes.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=43&aff=75270 (http://www.softstarshoes.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=43&aff=75270)
They look pretty nice.
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I am planning to buy some water shoes, it looks like a good collection. It is not ordinary shoes, so I am going to collect some fairs.
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Here is what I am currently wearing. Never had anything better.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/DSCN5284.jpg)
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/DSCN5285.jpg)
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/DSCN5286.jpg)
I guess you can call em shandles shoes mixed with sandals. I tried sandals for adventuring the concrete surfaces of the city and had no success. Not comfortable and not enough cushion. I wouldn't trade these shoes that I ripped apart for anything. Perfect for the summer.
I don't have flat feet but I don't have that big of an arch. If your the same this brand may be good to customize for yourself also.
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They've still got the big heel that distorts posture. If they're a good compromise for you, I'm all in favour, but I know once I tried minimal shoes there was no going back.
Re hardness of concrete, yeh I think it's a bit harder than compacted earth but I don't believe it's that important. Once I got into minimals, I don't feel it's a problem for my joints or whatever. Maybe it is storing up some wear and tear, but the way I see it it's balancing the slight difference of concrete and the unknown that it might be a little worse than solid mud against normal shoes which definitely cause problems with posture and constrict my feet.
A lot of 'knee problems' etc are caused by the muscles being overstrained or doing unaccustomed work and referred pain. If anyone wants to pm me I might be able to put them on to something that can help. Free, to help the community.
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Good to see this thread resurrected.
Interesting adaptations to those trainers Sully! :) Nice and airy, I'm sure, but I must agree with Josh on the minimalist footwear. Once you've tried some of the available footwear you probably wouldn't go back. My current range includes: Feelmax Niesa, Feelmax Kuuva, Vibram Fivefinger KSO, Viva Barefoot Lesotho, and a selection of water shoes and tai chi footwear. Moving away from the consumerism aspect, I'm also in the process of making something myself! I've long had painful issues with Plantar Fasciitis but moving to minimalist footwear has helped immensely.
I've been using some Vibram Fivefingers for running and have been truly amazed at the results. No injuries whatsoever. Easy trouble-free runs and a completely altered running style. I would certainly recommend them along with the now famous book, Born To Run, and some of the complimentary exercises/methods such as POSE method, Egoscue method etc.
PaleoPhil, are you still after minimalist boots? I have a pair of FeelMax Kuuva's which were brilliant in the icy and snow we had this past winter as well as being extremely minimalist. I was unable to go out in my Vibrams, Viva Barefoots or FeelMax Niesa's as they were either too slippery or dangerously cold. The Kuuva's solved these problems. I've also read about the Munson last and a company called the Russell Mocassin Company who will make something suitable. If you haven't heard of them, you may be interested in this link: http://www.russellmoccasin.com/product_reviews/minimalist_footwear.html (http://www.russellmoccasin.com/product_reviews/minimalist_footwear.html)
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I bought fake Vibram Five Fingers. $65 and I'm very happy with them. The look just like real ones and even come with the proper box and leaflets.
$200 in OZ for Five Fingers I would of bought real ones but they were always out of stock.
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Michael, I use a pair of kayaking boots for winter. They're slippery, but it sort of helps to keep me on my toes and agile and I've only actually fallen a couple of times over two winters. I looked into the Kuuva's but it sounds like they don't offer much more traction:
"The sole of the Kuuva is completely flat with almost no texture on the bottom. The other day, I was walking up a fairly steep, wet, muddy-grassy hill, and my feet slipped out from under me several times. I honestly wondered if I would be able to make it up the hill. I did manage after three falls (not all the way to the ground, but to my hands). However, if those are the conditions you think you'll be in regularly, you could probably get a pair of "boot (or shoe) chains" and be fine." http://www.amazon.com/Feelmax-Kuuva-Boots-Minimalist-Simulates/dp/B002SAZTFQ
I may try something like ICEtrekkers Shoe Chains or Yaktrax. On the other hand, Inuits and other indigenous peoples somehow managed in icy conditions with mukluks and other moccasin-style boots.
At first glance the Russell Mocassins don't look minimalist enough for me.
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Leather sandals are considered paleo?
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On the other hand, Inuits and other indigenous peoples somehow managed in icy conditions with mukluks and other moccasin-style boots.
I don't know what the soles of the other shoes are made from (didn't follow the link) but hides have more texture than rubber or other man-made sole materials. I'm not saying you won't fall on a sharp incline but it's less likely in hide shoes IMO.
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PaleoPhil, surprisingly those Kuuva's did actually have fairly decent traction in the ice and snow. I suppose it depends on the demands you have and your environment may be far harsher than a little English winter. If this is the case then you may be forced to go for something like the Icetrekkers cleats you mentioned.
I do think the Russell Mocassin Company may have the answer though. If you have a good look around their website you should see a good selection of minimalist footwear for stalking in addition to which they give the impression they're willing to build something unique for individual customers. I certainly intend contacting them when I have some spare cash.
Wodgina, thanks for the report on the fake fivefingers. I'd heard the asian markets were flooded with these and wondered about the quality. Certainly, the genuine VFF are rather expensive - particularly some of the latest models! I'm intending buying some more injinji toe socks and applying a paint-on, non-slip industrial (but VOC free!) liquid rubber solution. I have high hopes that this will provide the ultimate barefoot feel but with the security of traction and puncture resistance.
Leather sandals are certainly another good option, as mentioned, and there are plenty of websites detailing how to make DIY huaarche sandals as used by the Tarahumara. I'm not so sure about the aesthetic potential of these myself! :)
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Puncture resistance sure, but traction? What?
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Puncture resistance sure, but traction? What?
Do you mean the liquid rubber I mentioned?
The particular brand of liquid rubber I'm intending to soon purchase offers a non-slip liquid rubber coating intended for industrial applications where this would be of critical importance. I'm not yet sure to what degree this would provide traction but I'm keen to find out!
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Thanks, Michael, but I checked the moccasin site further and still found only shoes/boots that look stiff and thick-soled and I even checked out their custom options page. Not much like the minimalist Feelmax, Vivo Barefoot, Vibrams and traditional moccasins I'm more interested in--though it's hard to tell how thick and flexible the soles on the custom options page are. Do you have a link to a page that shows what you're referring to?
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Sorry Phil. I didn't have time to post any links earlier.
I agree that, sole thickness wise, they don't currently compare with the minimalist shoe market leaders. But, I think they have potential and the company seem willing to listen to the barefoot community and re-design their products accordingly.
The boots that caught my eye were the 'Thula Thula's which can be seen here: http://www.russellmoccasin.com/boots_safari/thula_thula.html (http://www.russellmoccasin.com/boots_safari/thula_thula.html)
Also, they talk a little more about their entry into the minimalist market here (which you may have seen):
http://www.russellmoccasin.com/new_products/minimalist_footwear.html (http://www.russellmoccasin.com/new_products/minimalist_footwear.html)
I think they may be worth contacting to discuss your requirements and see what they can come up with. Certainly, their footwear appears incredibly well made using traditional techniques, expert craftsmanship and quality materials. The Munson last also seems to be favourable to the ideals of minimalist footwear with it's spacious toebox etc.
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Do you mean the liquid rubber I mentioned?
The particular brand of liquid rubber I'm intending to soon purchase offers a non-slip liquid rubber coating intended for industrial applications where this would be of critical importance. I'm not yet sure to what degree this would provide traction but I'm keen to find out!
Sorry, I though you were suggesting that you would have more traction than bare soles. Yes, that sounds like a good idea, and is something I considered in the past but never got around to.
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Sorry, I though you were suggesting that you would have more traction than bare soles. Yes, that sounds like a good idea, and is something I considered in the past but never got around to.
My own carelessness miles. Having re-read my post I can see how you could've interpreted that as my intended supposition.
Hopefully, I'll get around to the prototype 'running socks' eventually and will report back with results.
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Hey Michael, I really want some warm-boots, that are close-fitting on the main foot but don't squash the toes, and have a soft fabric bottom, and then use something to toughen the bottom for durability, like that rubber spray. Do you have any ideas of how I could attain/make such boots?
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Hey Miles. I got a Hurarache sandal kit, and they supply vibram to make the soles with. This is what they make hiking boots etc out of.
http://www.invisibleshoe.com/
http://www.barefootted.com/index.php?q=/
You could use that for your base.
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I went for a run in my Five Fingers, heaps of rock jumping, scaling boulders, scrambling even crossed (just) a fast moving river in them.
I found I couldn't slide down rocks/sleep slopes like you can in shoes (your toes crumple)
I liked them, my feet feel massaged by all the rocks I stepped on.
You can check my run out here
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42641517 (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42641517)
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Barefoot is best for me. I try to maintain this all year but outside in winter is a problem. Best because when you walk barefoot you are constantly pushing on your accupressure or Marma points in your feet and this activating the associated meridians. Also you are doing it in a random way so you are constantly changing the activations rather than simply hitting the same ones over and over. Also the weight of shoes is an unnatural stress on your knees etc as they have to be lifted constantly which is a source of fatigue. Your sense of balance is much keener barefoot.
Walking on dirt is the best as you are grounding yourself constantly. In Ayurveda they suggest not wearing rubber or leather under your feet as it prevents this grounding. I think what they are talking about is prana that exits through your feet.
Wearing shoes generally is a source of skeletal problems (misalignment causing long term problems) because no matter what you wear it somehow will shift your posture. And since you do it repeatedly you will eventually suffer some sort of repetitive strain injury.
I'll explain. My feet used to point outward (pronated). Not really badly mind you but a chiropracter suggested getting orthotics to correct it. So I got them. Then I noticed that my feet automatically started to point forward in the direction that seemed proper. They have stayed that way since.
From studying and having some skeletal adjusting done by a chiro and a Rolfer I have learned that posture is incredibly important. Here is how it should be;
Take a string or thread and attach a weight of some sort from it. The string should be long enough to go from the top of a doorway to just shy of the floor. Then somehow attach the string to the top of the doorway. Then stand to one side of the doorway so you are close to but not touching the string, with your ear close to the string as possible. Do not lean sideways, what I am saying is your ear should by abeam the string. Stand in your normal way, no fakin it!
Then have someone you love or the closest facsimile, look at the string and move themselves so the string appears to pass by the centre of your ear. The string should pass by the centre of your shoulder, then the centre of your hips and the centre of your knee's rotation and the big bump on your ankle. This way your weight is centred and you require no extra muscle activity to keep you erect. This muscle activity is very tiring. The tiring effect of this is actually a source of poor attitude etc because if you are tired all the time you will tend to be cranky.
If your shoes wear predominantly on one side or more forward or aft, then you are not balanced. Women who wear high heels and men who wear cowboy boots are asking for big trouble.
If you have wide feet get shoes marked 5 w or whatever is appropo. My small toes are rolled in because I have wide feet and I used to run with narrow sneakers as a teenager and tended to have narrow shoes, not knowing the difference. I remember the first time I bought wide shoes. I couldn't believe how comfortable they were. Now if I wear narrow shoes my feet snap every time my foot comes down just like the thing we used to do as kids where you squeeze someones fist while shaking their hand and snap their knuckles up and down. It hurts.
I have wide "Keen" sandals for driving my bicycle. For work I have orthotic German Finn Comfort shoes that cost a small fortune. They have custom orthotic inserts glued in. (work paid for 80% of the cost) They are ultra wide and unfortunately too hot and heavy to wear in summer.
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You can check my run out here
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42641517 (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42641517)
I know this is off-topic, but then this is an off topic forum. :0
Hey Wodgina,
How do you post that run? I have a Garmin Colorado 300. I've tried it on other sites but can't remember what I did.
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Hey Michael, I really want some warm-boots, that are close-fitting on the main foot but don't squash the toes, and have a soft fabric bottom, and then use something to toughen the bottom for durability, like that rubber spray. Do you have any ideas of how I could attain/make such boots?
Hi miles,
Firstly, as I suggested to PaleoPhil, it may be worth talking to the Russell Moccasin Company. I don't know if you checked out any of the links I posted? The Munson last, particularly, sounds like an ideal starting place for a close-fit on the main foot but a wide toe box. Perhaps they could adapt something like their 'Thula Thula' boot or design something completely different to your specifications? I suppose this depends on how much you'd be willing to spend on something like that.
Again, as I mentioned to PaleoPhil, the Feelmax Kuuva's are worth trying. My pair are warm enough in the snow with good grip and durability despite the 1mm sole. The material they use for their incredibly thin soles has amazing ability to withstand abrasion. If I remember correctly, it's designed/produced by Continental and I did manage to read about this industrial use material on the Continental global website although it was difficult to find. You could always apply the liquid rubber to the Kuuva's too but I'm not sure it'd be necessary.
Other than that, I guess it's a case of searching for exactly the right boot and making your own DIY adjustments or taking them to a shoe repair shop with a request for specialist adaptations? Or, how about buying some toe socks of the desired boot length and dipping/painting the entire sock in liquid rubber? Perhaps some form of indoor boot (tai chi? martial art? ninja tabi slipper/boot? comfort slipper?) could be used with a liquid rubber painted bottom too? I'd expect a long search on Google would throw up some potential boots ripe for adaptation!
I'll let you know if I think of anything else or find something suitable.
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I know this is off-topic, but then this is an off topic forum. :0
Hey Wodgina,
How do you post that run? I have a Garmin Colorado 300. I've tried it on other sites but can't remember what I did.
The link?
I login into Garmin Connect, download using my 'ant' open up the workout page and just copy and paste from the address bar.
Garmins are good fun, especially with google earth.
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Hey Michael, do you have any info on the liquid rubber?
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Really interesting thread, thanks all for your contributions.
I've had a pair of Vibram FiveFingers for a few months, and have put a couple hundred miles on them. While I liked them at first, I don't think I'd recommend them anymore. The toe pockets make my toes sweat more than normal, which seems to cause more blisters than I get when running/hiking in other minimalist footwear. Also, while they fit overall, individual toe pockets are too long, causing them occasionally to buckle when I'm moving over irregular terrain. Finally, when I'm off trail all sorts of plants and sticks get caught between the toes, forcing me to stop constantly to pick them out. This never happens when I walk barefoot, so I can only attribute it to something about the toe pockets' spacing and rigidity. I will not buy another pair, and cannot recommend them.
I looked over the Russel Mocs page. I know a few people who have the stalking-type boots, and reviews are mixed. Traction is poor, the soles are anything but thin, and while feel is better than with a lug sole, friends who've shelled out the $$ for them can't be remotely as quiet as me in a pair of $40 water shoes. I haven't worn their minimalist models, but at $250+ per pair I guarantee I never will. You can buy multiple pairs of good minimalist footwear for the price of a single pair of custom "minimalist" Russel mocs.
On a positive note, I do own two pairs of Teva Protons, which have held up to running for a couple years although the pair I bought first is nearing the end of its useful life. They do poorly as running shoes when you try to wear socks, but work reasonably well when you don't. They are neoprene, though, so are always hot, except in the winter when they're just right. Unfortunately I don't think they make Protons anymore, and have replaced the line with something with a higher top. Maybe that makes them better, although if they're all neoprene it will certainly make them hotter, which is no good for spring/summer/fall use.
I just ordered a couple pairs of Soft Star RunAmoks. I bought the ventilated version, one pair with the thicker (5mm) treaded sole for non-urban environs and another pair with the thinner (2mm) sole for urban environs. After reading a few reviews on-line, I have high hopes for them. They offer a leather version that looks awfully attractive as a hunting shoe. I'll let folks know how I like them.
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You think water-shoes would be good for all-weather/terrain(when it's cold enough to want to wear shoes), if you could only have 1 pair of shoes with you?
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If I could only have one pair of shoes with me, yes I think I would go with a pair of water shoes. Teva is high end at around $40-60, but there are other brands and I've read of people putting 200+ miles on cheap pairs of $10 water shoes and enjoying their fit and utility tremendously. Don't think for a second that you need to spend substantial amounts of money for a good minimalist shoe. You get what you pay for sometimes, and sometimes you get a lot more than you pay for (or conversely, sometimes you pay a lot and don't get much in return except a brand name).
That said, I haven't tried all models, only the ones I mentioned. As I try other companies' offerings this opinion might change.
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I just received my two pairs of Soft Star RunAmoks. I haven't worn the pair with the heavier sole yet, but I've worn the pair with the thin sole around the house. I am very pleased. They yield the closest feel to brain-tanned moccasins that I've ever felt in a commercially made shoe. The Vibram soles are thin and flexible, yet firm enough to be puncture resistant and the tread is quite nice. Now that I see them in front of me and can walk around in a pair, I have even higher hopes for these minimalist shoes.
I ran this morning (in my two-year-old Teva Protons), so won't run again until Sunday AM. I'll try the RunAmoks then, and report back on my sense of them as running shoes. They offer a lot of room, great ventilation and good puncture resistance, so I have very high hopes for these as running shoes.
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Hey Michael, do you have any info on the liquid rubber?
Check out this link miles: http://www.liquidrubbergb.com/index.html (http://www.liquidrubbergb.com/index.html)
I've contacted the company and it is available in smaller quantities for domestic use than may be interpreted by the commercial/industrial applications demonstrated in their website video. It's not cheap, unfortunately. Trade price on 5 litre high build £68.55. Non-skid 5 litre £92.54 + vat + £10 delivery. Of course, 5 litres would make MANY pairs of shoes! :)
If you like the look of it having read their website and watched their video, I'd be keen to organise a joint purchase with you so let me know.
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Hey Eric,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and offering your opinions on a selection of minimalist footwear options. I was particularly interested in your comments on the Russell Moc's. Thanks for sharing that. I will probably still talk to the company at some point but won't rely on those being the ultimate solution that I was, perhaps, hoping.
I'm sorry to hear that you were not convinced by the VFF's. I am aware that problems such as those you mentioned are not uncommon with VFF's but it seems that sizing can be a difficult and individual matter with them. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones as the only problem I share is that of getting bits stuck between the toes and I don't find it an issue.
I agree that watershoes can be a good option particularly when financial implications are taken into account. I do like the similar watershoes that I have but don't find they compare with the 'road' feel of the FeelMax's or the comfort of the VFF's. I agree that heat can also be an issue in addition to, at least I found, their total lack of water resistance.
Thanks for the update and preview of the RunAmoks! That's exciting to hear as I've had a pair of these on my wishlist for some time. I look forward to a future update following your first run in them. Cheers Eric!
Andrew, good to hear you had a good run in the FiveFingers! Perhaps your fake pair are even better than the originals?!! :)
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Any updates on the RunAmoks yet Eric?
Also, I was wondering if anyone had heard about Inov8's proposed new leap into the minimalist market. Check these out!
http://birthdayshoes.com/a-five-toed-minimalist-shoe-by-someone-other-than-vibram-meet-inov-8-s-upcoming-evoskin-breaking-news (http://birthdayshoes.com/a-five-toed-minimalist-shoe-by-someone-other-than-vibram-meet-inov-8-s-upcoming-evoskin-breaking-news)
http://www.fitnessfootwear.com/p-3145-inov-8-evoskin-smoke.aspx (http://www.fitnessfootwear.com/p-3145-inov-8-evoskin-smoke.aspx)
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I've had the RunAmoks long enough to comment on them. I like them a lot. When I ran in the VFF and even Teva water shoes, my range was limited by the amount of distance I could cover before I started feeling blisters coming on. And That range was not as far as I would have liked. I've ran a few times in the RunAmoks and have also taken them contra dancing, and love them. My range is now limited by my fitness level, not the propensity of my footwear to give me blisters. The RunAmoks have a delightful moccasin-like feel. I give them two thumbs up!
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I'm overdue to replace my shoes for business-style work use. I've been satisfied with the Dharma shoe from Vivo Barefoot I've been wearing and a coupon is currently available to bring it down 30% to $98, but I'm open to other suggestions before the coupon expires Aug. 30.
They held up better than any other shoes I've worn, though the leather of one shoe did eventually separate from the sole at a spot where some of the stitching failed, and the hole is spreading. I'll probably try to get it repaired as a backup pair. I especially like them after I recently discovered that they have an insole that makes them more like truly barefoot-style shoes when it's removed.
Upsides:
- comfortable wide toebox that promotes healthily splayed toes
- The only truly barefoot-style shoe I've seen that looks businessy enough to wear to work
- very comfortable
- lasts a long time
- slip on and off and still fit well enough to not fall off except when running in them barefoot
The downsides:
- decorative plastic on the back above the heel wears off easily
- they're still pricey at $98 (but probably a good value given all the use I got out of them--I liked them so much I ended up wearing them nearly every day)
- they squeak on waxy floors
- the wide toebox makes them look like clown shoes, and I got one snide remark, but I'd rather stick with wide-toebox shoes anyway
- too wide a fit to wear barefoot, except around the house
Size : US 13 / EU 46
Colour : Black
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Thanks for the postive RunAmoks review Eric. It seems as though I'm definitely going to have to buy a pair of these particularly as the International shipping costs on the website seem most reasonable! The only things I'm a little concerned about with them is i) do the feet slip around in them too much as I'd read in other reviews? ii) are the toeboxes wide enough? How have you found these 2 factors?
Phil, I think the Vivo Dharma's are a good choice. I have a pair of the canvas Dharmas but wish the leather versions were available at the time as I would've preferred those. I had various negative remarks wearing my white canvas Dharmas out too and can relate to the clown look - mine are clown/miami vice! :) They're now my garden shoes! I also have a pair of the brown leather Lesotho's which I'd highly recommend for those times when something smart(ish) is required. My Lesotho's are my main shoe and are worn to work as well as general day use. I do wish they had something a little 'smarter' and 'dressier' available though. BTW, have you seen the Vivo Barefoot Franklin boot soon to be released? I'm wondering if that would be suitable for your boot needs?
One suggestion I would make, Phil, is to look into driving shoes if you want something particularly smart for work and dressier occasions. I bought myself a pair of these (http://www.henryjamesshoes.com/products/tan-leather/top-gear (http://www.henryjamesshoes.com/products/tan-leather/top-gear) a while back which were rather nicely made and look great. They're not perfect but if you have a good look around I think you may be able to find something suitable as there's a great variety available. I cut the black rubber 'sole' sections (as shown in the pic) from mine to make them completely flat but should've been more careful. I was surprised to discover that, strangely, the rubber sections are not simply attached to the leather outer but actually stitched in with no leather beneath. Removing them has left, basically, two big holes in the bottom of the shoes! I still wear them but cannot go out in the rain or wet unless I wear waterproof socks!! Quite a barefoot experience though! :)
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For dressier occasions I wear Rockports--I only had to remove the glued-on heels to make them nearly flat. Unfortunately, Rockport now uses a single-piece molded sole.
VB only have black and white Lesothos currently and they look too casual for work. Plus, I already have a similar pair of white Aquas.
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OK, I ordered another pair of Dharmas for business wear. After 30% off coupon with shipping they came to $102.65, which is well below what my first pair cost when they were one of the few barefoot style shoes around and the only one that didn't look wierd, but still a bit pricey. So this is what I have currently:
- business wear: Vivo barefoot Dharma
- formal wear: Rockport w/ heels removed
- running, sprinting, hiking: Vivo barefoot Aqua; the laces enable me to run without socks, but for some reason they also have a redundant elastic-like inner part under the laces that makes getting the shoes on more difficult and makes them feel a bit tight. They should have done either the laces or the constricting material--not both.
- winter: kayak boots
I'm all set for now for business and formal wear. When it's time to replace the Rockports I'll probably buy something like the dressier Terra Plana shoes that are not truly barefoot-style but come close (but I hope there will be dressy-style barefoot shoes by that time).
Ideally I still would like something lighter than the Aquas, with a 2 - 3 mm outsole, for barefoot-style running (maybe even charity road racing some day), sprinting, hiking, and occasionally wading in water (I live near water and so do my parents and I like to be able to cool off in it or push a boat out without having to take my shoes off). I've gone through two pairs of water shoes. They didn't hold up well, it's rare to find them in my size and the fit tends to be poor. Right now the two most interesting shoes are:
1. LUNA Slip-on SANDAL: $49.95 http://www.lunasandals.com first batch starts shipping July 1st, 2010); 4 mm leather sole; 4+ oz weight; sole is a bit thick
2. RunAmoc - LITE Black: $87.00 for size 12; 2 mm sole. Several complaints of small stones getting into them too easily through the holes.
3. Feelmax Osma: from $79.99; 2.1 mm outsole and 2 mm insole; 10% off coupons sometimes offered; 7.8 oz weight for size 47 http://chrisultra.blogspot.com/2010/03/feelmax-osma-running-shoe.html; 3.5 oz for size ?; sole is the thinnest of the top barefoot shoes, but it "lacks the grip of Vivo Barefoot and Vibram FiveFingers shoes" and "also lacks the long-term wear resistance that rubber can provide"; shoe is a bit heavy
The Luna slip-on has a thicker sole than I'd like, I don't like the feel of sandal straps in between the toes, and the leather wouldn't be waterproof, but it's the lightest barefoot style shoe of all. The Feelmax Osma is nearly twice the weight but has a thinner outsole for possibly better ground feel.
For winter boots, the Kayak boots are a bit slippery, not warm enough for the coldest days (it can get down to about 20-25 below zero here in Vermont), and the boots are not high enough to keep snow from soaking my pants. Vivo Barefoot Dundan's look promising (http://expeditionaryart.com/blog/2009/02/vivo-barefoot/), but they're only sold in-season and there's not a lot of info on them on the Web, so I'll have to wait for them to be offered at VB's site to get more info about them and maybe buy them.
I don't think Feiyue's can really be considered barefoot-style shoes, as they are surprisingly heavy--listed as 1.5 pounds per shoe at Amazon! They apparently have a thick, heavy sole.
Sidebar: I used to have a size 11.5" left foot and size 11" right foot that usually translated into a size 13 US running shoe, for some reason, but after going Paleo my feet "shrunk" a little, which I take to indicate that my semi-flat feet developed better arches, and that does look like the case. I think my feet even shortened slightly further since I started using barefoot style shoes. Both my feet now measure a little under 11". For Vivo Barefoot shoes I find that size 46 is a good fit (45 was too small). Strangely, different shoe size conversion charts list different conversion sizes. This one http://www.dancesport.uk.com/shoes/conchart.htm says that size 46 Euro = 11.5 US and the one provided here http://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Claw-Feiyue-High-Shoes/dp/B001TUU0R8/ref=pd_sim_sg_5 says that 46 Euro = 13 US.
Sidebar 2: What's up with people smashing bottles? The mud trail near my home is mostly soft material, yet there is still broken glass. You have to go out of your way to find a small stone or patch of hard ground to smash your bottle against, yet people are apparently doing that.
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Regarding the concern expressed early in the thread that one needs shoe cushioning to run on modern surfaces like asphalt and concrete, that is addressed by author Chris McDougall in the following video I came across. It matches my experience that blacktop in particular is actually easier to run on than many natural surfaces. The reason a small amount of sole can be helpful is not the hard, smooth surfaces of roads and sidewalks, but broken glass and other trash on those surfaces and jagged rocks/stones/gravel on more natural-type surfaces.
Health: Barefoot Running - nytimes.com/video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIT7t2jtdP0
Cold, as mentioned, is also an issue, but it's surprisingly less of an issue than I expected--maybe because the feet aren't constricted as much. There have only been a handful of days in the last couple of winters in Vermont where my feet felt cold while wearing just flat-soled kayak boots or Vivo Barefoot shoes and standard cotton socks. If I was doing a lot of just standing or sitting around during the winter I would want something warmer, but I'm generally on the move when I'm outdoors during the winter.
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Correction to left foot length: it's more like 11.2 inches long instead of just under 11 inches. Not as impressive a change, but still somewhat significant, I think, and my feet certainly feel better than they used to, and the toes are somewhat more splayed than they used to be. Two of my toes used to overlap enough that the nail of one would dig into the other and make it bleed if I didn't keep it clipped super short.
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Hi Eric. What do you think of the run amok build quality...do you think they will last a long time?
Cheers.
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The RunAmoks have held up fine so far. The build seems solid to me, and since the leather is so thin the seems would be easy to repair if their thread fails. The pair with the thicker soles is wearing down a lot faster than the pair with the thinner soles, and the thicker soles seemed to bring me to the point of blisters sooner, so I stopped running in those quite soon and only ran substantially in the thinner soled version. I don't expect I'll buy the thicker-soled version again. I plan on buying a suede pair of the thinner-soled version for hunting season.
Let it be known, though, that I've stopped running in my RunAmoks, although I do walk around town in them and wear them to work. As of last week I began running barefoot, breaking myself in very slowly. I ran about 3 miles today, which was about a mile more than last week, and it turned out I added distance too fast. I got a couple blisters, one of which was quite large and had a little blood in it. It'll take a couple days to heal, and I'll ease back to 2 miles per outing until I feel compelled to start inching my way back up.
Luckily for me I'm not training for a race, otherwise the setback in distance per day I've taken to get used to actually running barefoot would be very inconvenient.
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The RunAmoks have held up fine so far....
Thanks for the updates on the RunAmoks Eric. I'm definitely planning on investing in a pair soon as I also need to buy my 15 month old son his first pair of shoes and have my eye on a pair of SoftStars Roos.
Regarding the 2 vibram sole options they seem to offer on the RunAmoks, it's interesting to hear your experiences of both. I was planning on ordering with the 2mm street tread but was also wondering if they'd sell a pair without either of the vibram sole options - just with the soft sole leather moc. Do you happen to know if that's a possibility and, in your experience of using the shoes, do you think that'd work well?
I'm all set for now for business and formal wear....
Sidebar 2: What's up with people smashing bottles? The mud trail near my home is mostly soft material, yet there is still broken glass. You have to go out of your way to find a small stone or patch of hard ground to smash your bottle against, yet people are apparently doing that.
PaleoPhil, interesting to read that your feet have altered in shape and size too. This is definitely something I've noticed during my period of both switching to a paleo diet and wearing minimalist footwear. I used to wear UK size 9 but now wear an 8 to 8.5! The improvement in my foot arch is clear to see visually too. It's amazing that you run in the Vivo Aqua's. Running in my Vivo's isn't something I'd even considered as they feel too much like a protective shoe for my taste. I'm glad that you seem to get on with them for this though and that you seem to have resolved your footwear line for the current season.
Unfortunately, my running is on hold at the moment as my plantar fasciitis has returned in addition to very painful heel spurs. This may have been a result of my levels of inactivity over recent weeks more than anything else but it's now even too painful to walk any significant distance! I need to get back to my Egoscue exercises which have been badly neglected for the last 6 months after making incredible process previously. The joys of children! :)
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Are there any barefoot-style boots or shoes that have good traction on snow and ice? One of the downsides to Vivo Barefoots, water shoes and kayak boots is that it's fairly slippery to walk in them on ice and snow.
Hey Phil,
I came across a website today that may be of great interest to you in your search for suitable minimalist footwear for your snow & ice! The guy at the AdventureInProgress blog has an interesting article here: http://www.adventureinprogress.com/forty-below-overboots (http://www.adventureinprogress.com/forty-below-overboots). His idea is basically using a layering system of minimalist boot, overboot and (when necessary) an additional cleat for grip. Of course, the article links to the various products he discusses. The minimalist overboots (which could be used over the FeelMax Kuuvas) can be found here: http://www.40below.com/product_detail_public.php?ProductID=4400 (http://www.40below.com/product_detail_public.php?ProductID=4400).
Hope this is of interest to you and offers up some new possibilities! :)
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thanks for the info, Michael
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No worries Phil. I hope it's of some use to you.
(BTW, I hope you received my update PM about the chin up bar. Please let me know when it arrives safely!) :)
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Thought I'd give my thoughts on the Vivo Evo's. I wanted soft star, but didn't want to pay all that shipping and duty for something untried.
So I went for the bird in the hand. I'm pleased with the Evo's. They're very flexible and lightweight. The sole is not as thin as vibram, but a bit thinner than my vivo boots, and while you can't feel every detail, the mechanics are definitely barefoot.
They're fully artificial, but have a mesh on top, so breathability is great. I would have preferred leather, but it seems ok in practise.
They look very good, and great for taking to the gym for a mixed workout. They seem like a well made pair of trainers and I think they'll last out well.
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damnit, i wanted to buy the feelmax kuuvas for winter. apparently i can't buy them in the US. any help? extremeoutfitters told me the don't have any more in stock (despite it still being on their website) and don't plan on reordering. anyone know how else i can get them? thanks
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http://www.bluewatersports.eu/sola-sports---split-toe-5mm-neoprene-surf--watersports-boots-8519-p.asp
http://www.blitzsport.com/Adult-Outdoor-Ninja-Tabi-Boots?sc=9&category=40
http://www.blitzsport.com/Adult-Indoor-Ninja-Tabi-Boots?sc=9&category=40
I'm looking for some footwear for the outdoors, cold weather, possibly including snow. I need thin/flexible soles to allow me to be agile, and nothing that's going to squash and deform my feet. These are some things I'm looking at, I'd rather not spend too much money as I'm limited, and this stuff looks interesting.
I thought that in the past I saw some 'five fingers tundra's, which looked like the flow but thicker foot-casing(not thicker sole), and like a boot rather than a shoe, made for winter wear, but I can't find them so maybe I imagined it. I would consider the flow, or the flow trek though.
What does anyone else think, suggestions?
My ideal would probably be soft leather boots, with a flexible leather sole, but I don't think I'll be able to get that. I'd like some leather gloves as well.
Edit: http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=65255 I found this... So maybe they removed them from sale..??? Why would they do that!?
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Leather soles are risky mate as they won't stop a nail. Consider vibram.
Soft Star can custom make boots, but yeh they're not cheap and you have to import them.
If you're set on leather, you could try and make moccasins.
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Update: Soft star don't custom make boots anymore.
Also, be careful with the new Vivo Barefoot. I've had a look and the build quality is shit on the new ones. I think it has been getting worse. My first pair was great, then I had one that didn't last that long.
I have bought 2 pairs from old stock on sale, but after that I don't know what I'll do. Soft star are good, but the boots work when it's cold and rainy.
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http://www.tandyleatherfactory.co.uk/home/department/cowhide/cowhide.aspx
I'm trying to order leather from here, but these people are so slow to reply it's like they don't want to sell anything...
They have so many fancy types of hide - I want to go for the cheapest I can, but I don't know what's suitable or not for moccasins.
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You could find out what soft star are made from.
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He sent me a catalogue which includes a glossary of terms so all's good.
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I'm still sold on SoftStars. I've worn the same leather pair with the thin 2 mm sole I bought last summer all winter. They've held up well, and although the sole is starting to get smooth in a few places from wear they are lasting much longer than I'd expected. I've even ran in them a few times this winter, although most of my running has continued to be barefoot. They worked reasonably well for hunting, although I ended up hunting barefoot much of the time as well just because I could be quieter that way.
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That's good to hear. Isn't the 2mm sole smooth to begin with?
It looks that way in the image they show:
(http://www.softstarshoes.com/images/products/500V/running_shoe_sole_smallest.jpg)
I ask because I would like the grip of the rough sole but would also prefer the thinness of the 2mm sole, so a grippy 2mm sole would be perfect for me, but I wasn't aware that they sold that or that it was even possible to make a sole that thin rough.
I was also thinking of getting either the suede or smooth leather instead of the perforated, so as to keep dirt/pebbles out of the shoe and for warmth in winter. I'm thinking that the smooth leather might be more water resistant than the suede, though the suede looks better. I'm guessing that you have the perforated version. How has the dirt/pebbles issue been for you?
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Has anyone tried these?
http://shop.zemgear.com/
I was thinking they might be nice for running in.
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Would they stop broken glass?
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Would they stop broken glass?
I don't know, that's why I am asking. I may go ahead and order them. If I do, I will post a review here. Although, with shoes you have to give them time, they could always fall apart in 6 months. So I will wait until I have had time to use them a good deal.
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...Isn't the 2mm sole smooth to begin with?
I can see how they look smooth, but in fact they have a very subtle texture to them that gives them amazing traction on all surfaces, even black ice.
I own a pair of the perforated, and admittedly haven't had problems with dirt and pebbles getting into the shoe. The solid shoes are warmer in winter, but I've walked around wearing my perforated pair even when temps dipped below zero (Fahrenheit) and my feet have stayed warm while wearing a decent pair of wool socks. And certainly if you run in them your feet will stay warm, because their muscles will constantly be flexing and pushing new, warm blood through your foot.
I will admit that the suede version isn't particularly water resistant. The design of the shoe doesn't allow for much water resistance regardless of the material though, as there is a vertical slit at the sides that drops nearly to the sole. I suppose you could sew that shut if you wanted to, but that might make it harder to get the shoe on.
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So you prefer the suede version?
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I have a pair in the suede version, but haven't owned a pair made with the smooth leather so am not in a good position to say the suede is 'better'. I like the suede fine, but can't think of any reason why the smooth versions would be worse.
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What about the suede vs. the perforated? Do you prefer one over the other or prefer having both, suited to different purposes?
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http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip
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Hey, thanks mate!
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http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip
Did anyone try this?
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I bought some to put on some hand tools but it never quite made it there. It has since dried up in the can.
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What about the suede vs. the perforated? Do you prefer one over the other or prefer having both, suited to different purposes?
I've bought both the suede and perforated, and prefer the suede. The perforated are black and the black dye in the leather seems to stain everything with any amount of moisture in it, including my skin and even toe nails. The suede stains a little if they get wet, but not remotely as bad.
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I've bought both the suede and perforated, and prefer the suede. The perforated are black and the black dye in the leather seems to stain everything with any amount of moisture in it, including my skin and even toe nails. The suede stains a little if they get wet, but not remotely as bad.
I've got the perforated and had the same issue for a while. After enough time though they have stopped staining anything for me.
Do you notice if the suede have much more insulation to them? I was thinking of getting a pair for the winter.
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The suede version are more insulating, though I think it is simply because they don't have holes in them and not so much because they were designed with insulation. Their leather is the same thickness as the perforated versions, as far as I can tell.
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http://www.bisonbushcraft.co.uk/page27/page27.html
Scroll down near the bottom for the 'Bison Bushcraft Boots'.
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They look like a well made pair of boots. Wish they used thin vibram not tyre tread though. It's a step in the right direction but not flexible enough.
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I've been wearing some vibram KSOs and my feet(both heels and front) get sore from walking or running on paved roads, which is pretty much everywhere. And I'm definitely not overdoing it. I don't go for long runs in them or anything like that. Most of the time I just wear them to the store or things like that. I basically have to wear my thicker sandals most of the time now. I'm considering buying a shoe sole at a store and cutting it to fit inside so I have some more padding.
It seems like this problem would exist with any barefoot shoe.
I liked the vibrams mainly for their toe design which doesn't squeeze the front of the foot into an unnatural pointed shape like most shoes do. My toes have been obviously straightening out, the only problem is with the bottom of my feet getting sore. I used to run barefoot on grass when playing soccer as a kid and never had any problems. I'm pretty sure it's because of the hard paved roads and sidewalks everywhere. Odd that the guy running barefoot for miles on concrete in central park in that video doesn't seem to have the same problem...
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I've been wearing some vibram KSOs and my feet(both heels and front) get sore from walking or running on paved roads, which is pretty much everywhere. And I'm definitely not overdoing it. I don't go for long runs in them or anything like that. Most of the time I just wear them to the store or things like that. I basically have to wear my thicker sandals most of the time now. I'm considering buying a shoe sole at a store and cutting it to fit inside so I have some more padding.
It seems like this problem would exist with any barefoot shoe.
I liked the vibrams mainly for their toe design which doesn't squeeze the front of the foot into an unnatural pointed shape like most shoes do. My toes have been obviously straightening out, the only problem is with the bottom of my feet getting sore. I used to run barefoot on grass when playing soccer as a kid and never had any problems. I'm pretty sure it's because of the hard paved roads and sidewalks everywhere. Odd that the guy running barefoot for miles on concrete in central park in that video doesn't seem to have the same problem...
Are your feet making contact toe-to-heel, or heel-to-toe? If it's the latter, you may want to switch. Other than that, I don't know.
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For me the main problem was concrete, which has less give than blacktop. I seem to handle concrete better since including more foods in my diet that reportedly strengthen connective tissues, some of which are not considered Paleo--marrow, bone broths (it's possible to make raw versions if one wishes), small fish bones, kosher gelatin, raw fermented cod liver oil, raw butter oil, and pastured cultured butter (not raw), and occasionally some supplements like Dr. Ron's Joint Support Forumla when I haven't been eating as much of these foods as usual. My dental health also improved.
I have Merrell, Vivo Barefoot and Soft Star RunAmoc with 5mm studded Trail sole. The Vivo Barefoots are my favorite to wear of any shoe I've tried, but they are not very durable. The Merrell's look more durable and are less expensive, so I'm currently wearing those as my work-day shoe. The RunAmoc's were disappointing. I bought them for when I need traction and because they were deeply discounted, but my problematic left foot tends to flop and become painful when wearing them unless I walk or run on soft surfaces like grass or soft dirt, where it does have better traction than the Vivo Barefoots. I think the problem is the sole, which is stiffer than the Vivo Barefoot sole, which is slippery enough that I've had some falls on wet mud and ice. I'll bet the 2mm soles are better. I've added insole padding to see if that helps. The Merrell sole is also stiff, but the shoe has more cushioning, so that's probably why that shoe doesn't give me the problem. Unfortunately, the Merrell's are not as enjoyable to wear as the Vivo Barefoots, so I still haven't tried my ideal shoe yet.
I've received negative feedback once or twice on the appearance of the Vivo Barefoot (someone told me they looked like clown-shoes because of the wide toe area, which they somewhat do, but it doesn't bother me because I like the wide toe box, and I've been allowed to wear them at work--I've also seen people make the "clown shoe" remark about Vibram Five Fingers shoes) and Softstar shoes (toes poke up rather obviously in the supersoft top). Merrell shoes look more like conventional shoes, so I haven't gotten any negative remarks, but the downside is they are less like true barefoot-style shoes.
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I've been wearing some vibram KSOs and my feet(both heels and front) get sore from walking or running on paved roads, which is pretty much everywhere. And I'm definitely not overdoing it. I don't go for long runs in them or anything like that. Most of the time I just wear them to the store or things like that. I basically have to wear my thicker sandals most of the time now. I'm considering buying a shoe sole at a store and cutting it to fit inside so I have some more padding.
It seems like this problem would exist with any barefoot shoe.
I liked the vibrams mainly for their toe design which doesn't squeeze the front of the foot into an unnatural pointed shape like most shoes do. My toes have been obviously straightening out, the only problem is with the bottom of my feet getting sore. I used to run barefoot on grass when playing soccer as a kid and never had any problems. I'm pretty sure it's because of the hard paved roads and sidewalks everywhere. Odd that the guy running barefoot for miles on concrete in central park in that video doesn't seem to have the same problem...
Hi MK,
for what its worth, I would shelve the vibrams (or equivalent 'barefoot' shoes) for the time.
Let your feet get to know the concrete more intimately still. I find the feet need time to adjust, to relate directly to the terrain sans any rubber at all. ;)
As they start to be more intimate with the ground, they will naturally relate more efficiently, gently, yet with great assurance.
I am a longtime Vibram wearer, I spend much time completely barefoot on all terrains.
For me it did take some adjustment, an acclimatisation, a courtship period with the ground if you will.
But it was definitely worth it, as my regular comments here about my biomechanical improvements attest to.
Just last week I took a guest on a 4 hour hike in the mountains through rocky terrain, completely barefoot. Folk passing on the trial, looked at my non-shoe status with horror, but then - ha! ha! - I looked at their chunky, heavy boots in a similar manner. ;D
Kind wishes, J
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It was time for a new pair of shoes and, unfortunately, Merrell no longer makes the slant glove shoe that was the best shoe I have worn so far that I could wear to work. The closest thing they have now is the jungle glove, which is narrower, has a higher arch, and a thicker sole. It is less comfortable as a result. It also has a chemical added to kill bacteria. All these are bad changes. They screwed up an excellent product. I guess it'll do for now and I'll try to use it as an incentive to walk barefoot more often.
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http://www.amazon.com/Merrell-Mens-Barefoot-Slant-Glove/dp/B00750HRF4 (http://www.amazon.com/Merrell-Mens-Barefoot-Slant-Glove/dp/B00750HRF4)
I have a similar shoe made by Windriver.
Get some moccassins :)
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http://www.amazon.com/Merrell-Mens-Barefoot-Slant-Glove/dp/B00750HRF4 (http://www.amazon.com/Merrell-Mens-Barefoot-Slant-Glove/dp/B00750HRF4)
Thanks, but that link unfortunately shows the shoe to be "Currently unavailable," like I said.
I have a similar shoe made by Windriver.
What is it?
Get some moccassins :)
I haven't found any good moccasins that were priced reasonably.
Merrell Customer service said the Radius Glove is closer to the Slant Glove, but it looks a bit too odd to wear to work. I may consider it for casual wear. Unfortunately, it also has the higher arch of the Jungle Glove. A high shoe arch is counter to the whole point of a barefoot shoe. :o
http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Product.mvc.aspx/28981M/69196/Mens/Barefoot-Life-Radius-Glove?dimensions=0 (http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Product.mvc.aspx/28981M/69196/Mens/Barefoot-Life-Radius-Glove?dimensions=0)
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Haha got me on the link.
I cannot find a product name in the WR boot. I got it at Mark's (Work Wearhouse) about a year ago. The shoe is a nicely made unit and Merrill make excellent shoes also.
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You might also consider the RunAmok Dash (http://www.softstarshoes.com/adult-shoes/dash-runamoc-all-smooth-chocolate.html) made by Soft Star Shoes (http://www.softstarshoes.com). I've bought Soft Star Shoes for years, and like them. They wear out after a year, but I haven't found a more mocassin-like shoe that lets me feel the ground better.
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Haha got me on the link.
I cannot find a product name in the WR boot. I got it at Mark's (Work Wearhouse) about a year ago. The shoe is a nicely made unit and Merrill make excellent shoes also.
I'm confused. The slant glove is not a boot, it's a barefoot style shoe. Do you have a Windriver shoe similar to that or to a boot?
You might also consider the RunAmok Dash (http://www.softstarshoes.com/adult-shoes/dash-runamoc-all-smooth-chocolate.html) made by Soft Star Shoes (http://www.softstarshoes.com). I've bought Soft Star Shoes for years, and like them. They wear out after a year, but I haven't found a more mocassin-like shoe that lets me feel the ground better.
Thanks, I have a pair of the Dash's and don't like them. I think the main problem is that I bought the thicker sole with better traction after many people complained about the slippery traction of their thinner sole. I can only wear them on soft ground without damaging my left foot and ankle and I find that the Merrells work as well or better on all surfaces, so I haven't been wearing the Dash's much, even though they're technically more like a barefoot shoe. I also don't like the way it looks with my toes poking out in a rise in the front, though I think I recall some people saying that gets less obvious after a while.
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Yeah, I bought one pair of the 6 mm soles and never bought another. I only use the 2 mm soled versions. I haven't had problems with poor traction on the thinner sole, although I've trained myself to walk very lightly so the tread lasts a very long time. I suspect people who walk heavy or who drag their feet might wear the traction out very quickly, yielding a perfectly smooth surface. Not sure what you mean about your toes poking out in a rise in the front. Are we talking about the same shoe?
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Below is an explanation of the toe bulge issue. The shoe isn't the exact same one as I have, but the result is similar (I think it's actually more prominent on mine, IIRC). I don't like the way it feels, to have my toes pressing against the upper, and I've gotten some negative comments about it too. It even leaves pronounced toe dents in the shoes.
I could probably buy a larger size to reduce this, but my feet already look clownishly long as it is, and they look much more normal in the Merrells. The Softstar shoes are the only one's I've had this problem with, likely due to the soft upper.
One unique aspect of these shoes is the fact that there is basically no structure in the upper. The leather will actually just lie against your foot. This means that you can actually usually see the outline of your toes while wearing the RunAmocs.
(http://collegetri.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/blue-runamoc-dash-soft-star.jpg?w=645&h=430)